Malbec37: tapering off mirtazapine / Remeron and hit major WD

[Malbec37]

@sunnysideup69thanks for checking in....I have to admit right now I'm really struggling....my mood is really low and I'm finding things tough, know I need to be positive but really not easy. Haven't slept much...getting through one day at a time. Middle of winter here in the UK which makes things harder too...still got the ringing in my ears but not as intense....I'm jus very up and down. Hoping my mood will stabilise soon on 13mg and I can have some consistency 

 

I am really trying to do all the right things 

[Malbec37]

@Rhiannon@mikeyboy@sunnysideup69@Gridley@manymoretodaysand others....

 

I am now more than 2 weeks into the updose from 11 to 13mg and my WD symptoms are still ever present and seems to be changing from day to day...here is a very brief overview:

 

Day 1: insomnia, anxiety, tinnitus

Day 2: Better day, slept well

Day 3: insomnia, anxiety, tinnitus, poor concentration

Day 4: insomnia. better mood 

Day 5: insomnia, low mood, tinnitus

Day 6: Slept better, improved mood, tinnitus (update seems to be working)

Day 7: Decent sleep, even mood, still tinnitus

Day 8: Sleep OK, very low mood and high anxiety, tinnitus

Day 9: Sleep ok, improved mood, tinnitus

Day 10: Sleep good, even mood BUT tinnitus stronger than ever

Day 11: Sleep ok, low energy and strong tinnitus

Day 12: Poor sleep, high anxiety, high tinnitus and low mood

Day 13: Better sleep, lower tinnitus but good mood

Day 14: Good sleep, low energy, low mood, tinnitus more manageable 

Day 15: Insomnia, low mood and high anxiety, tinnitus manageable 

Day 16: insomnia, mood is OK, low anxiety, low tinnitus

 

Basically my symptoms are completely inconsistent...I started with insomnia which then got better and now I am back to insomnia again! Yesterday my anxiety levels were very high and today they are not...tinnitus goes up and down but has been ever present since I first reduced from 15 to 11 nearly 4 weeks ago...also one day I sleep really well and then wake with low energy and low mood and then the next day I have insomnia and wake with no anxiety and my mood is fine!!? Makes no sense

 

My question is is this normal? I have read lots of info and I am aware of the windows and waves of recovery so I think it probably is I'd just like to hear from others and get some reassurance.

 

The doses are all very precise at active ingredient of 13mg of mirtazapine 

 

If it continues to go on like this for weeks might it be an option to go back to 15mg which is the last dose at which I felt completely stable and had no WD symptoms? I don't want to increase again as I'm aware my system is hypersensitive and destabilised but wanted to know what people think?

 

God what a tough journey so far this has been but I am staying resilient and very grateful for the help here at SA

[sunnysideup69]

42 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

@Rhiannon@mikeyboy@sunnysideup69@Gridley@manymoretodaysand others....

Basically my symptoms are completely inconsistent...I started with insomnia which then got better and now I am back to insomnia again! Yesterday my anxiety levels were very high and today they are not...tinnitus goes up and down but has been ever present since I first reduced from 15 to 11 nearly 4 weeks ago...also one day I sleep really well and then wake with low energy and low mood and then the next day I have insomnia and wake with no anxiety and my mood is fine!!? Makes no sense

 

Bear in mind I'm not a moderator and have no dosing expertise, I'm just giving you my best guess at your questions.

 

To me, the inconsistency sounds normal. Symptoms do morph and change and flow into other symptoms and then cycle all over again. I'm a year and a half into my adventures with psychoactive drug reinstatement/WD and, although my sleep is gradually improving, I still get fluctuations. Some nights, straight through sleep, but for less hours. Some nights, more sleep but broken. Not thinking you will take as long to settle as I did, I also did some stupid things to cause this.

 

Yep also can relate, good sleep doesn't necessarily correlate with good mood the next day....bizarre, isn't it? 

42 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

@Rhiannon@mikeyboy@sunnysideup69@Gridley@manymoretodays

 

My question is is this normal? I have read lots of info and I am aware of the windows and waves of recovery so I think it probably is I'd just like to hear from others and get some reassurance.

 

 

I would say, from my own experience, this is pretty normal and that two weeks is not very long, and remember it's only a month since you dropped from 15mg to 11mg. So in a month, you have gone from 15 to 11, then an updose to 13. Your nervous system is playing catch up, honestly, it's all sounding pretty normal to me. Ups and downs and fluctuations.

 

I've done really rash things in the past with these meds and so that's why I'm saying that I'd be inclined to give yourself a good long time to settle on 13mg now. You might wobble for a while, and you'd also likely wobble if you updosed again. It sounds as if you are panicking a bit that you won't settle, but you will- believe me, I empathise with that feeling.

 

Keep hanging in there and doing your self care, lots of self soothing and relaxation. Good diet. Sleep hygiene etc. This all sounds quite normal to me and it's also going to happen from time to time as you reduce...though hopefully, you will be cutting by such small amounts in the future that you will not really notice too many side effects.

 

Sending you good wishes  

[Malbec37]

@sunnysideup69I'm so grateful for for reply! Yes I think I was panicking a bit and in my lows thinking is this ever going to end but I know I'm on a journey and I am strong and resilient...you have to be to go through WD symptoms. It is so strange that you can have a terrible night sleep and feeling great (today I have felt great all day and my mood very good) then the other night I slept for 8 hours straight and woke up feeling awful

 

Thanks for all the reassurance it's greatly appreciated...I feel better sometimes just from hearing from someone to reassure me and remind me that I have changed doses quite quickly and it's still early days

 

I'm hoping that tomorrow I will have another good day

 

Hoping all is well with you Sunnysideup!

[sunnysideup69]

12 hours ago, Malbec37 said:

@sunnysideup69I'm so grateful for for reply! Yes I think I was panicking a bit and in my lows thinking is this ever going to end but I know I'm on a journey and I am strong and resilient...you have to be to go through WD symptoms. It is so strange that you can have a terrible night sleep and feeling great (today I have felt great all day and my mood very good) then the other night I slept for 8 hours straight and woke up feeling awful

 

Thanks for all the reassurance it's greatly appreciated...I feel better sometimes just from hearing from someone to reassure me and remind me that I have changed doses quite quickly and it's still early days

 

I'm hoping that tomorrow I will have another good day

 

Hoping all is well with you Sunnysideup!

 

Hey @Malbec37, you're most welcome. We're here to help one another out, I believe. I'm ok, have had a bit more anxiety over the last couple of days, but nothing like it was before. And a bit more obsessive style thinking. But the symptoms are getting less and less each time I go into a 'wave' or a dip. Very grateful for this  

 

WD takes a lot of courage, that's for sure and also a lot of faith. I'm not religious but I do have some kind of spiritual leanings and it is those that have kept me going.

I'm doing well. Mostly just fleeting moments of apathy, some eczema and WD spots and occasional dodgy sleep. Oh and some anxiety, which is minor compared to before. Overall, I'm stabilising quite well after an impulsive drug switch in August. I'm lucky, relatively speaking, that things are settling down from that within six months.

 

We'll come out of this stronger. Also hoping I'll come out of this less vain

[Malbec37]

Hi @sunnysideup69I'm glad your anxiety is better than it was and you are more stable...I'm really appreciating and grateful for your communication with me. As well as all the others here on SA who have helped me so far...It makes me feel so much less alone with what is a really tough process of withdrawal. I am discovering more and more each day and increasingly understanding the need to stabilise and take things slow - I had no idea it could be like this but I am more accepting now and up for the challenge of this journey...as you say we will come out stronger and this is a great outcome to all of this. 

 

This is a great resource I am finding very interesting and set up by a guy who is on here on SA and is trying to taper mirtazapine...really interesting podcasts and links: www.letstalkwithdrawal.com

 

Today I have had a second day of good even mood on 13mg so things do seem to be settling...I still have the tinnitus but it's bearable so I am just ignoring it. Hoping tomorrow for a third day of stability 

 

I agree on the spirituality...mindfulness practice has made a huge difference in my life in stabilising my depression and preventing more relapses (I have been depression free for 5 years now) and currently I am doing mantra meditation daily and also I practice a lot of yoga (I am a yoga teacher so this helps!) and also other energetic healing practices and also prayer...it all helps

 

Wishing you a good rest of your day

[Gridley]

On 1/20/2020 at 3:16 AM, Malbec37 said:

My question is is this normal? I have read lots of info and I am aware of the windows and waves of recovery so I think it probably is I'd just like to hear from others and get some reassurance.

 

The doses are all very precise at active ingredient of 13mg of mirtazapine 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is completely normal.  You have not stabilized yet, which accounts for the swings in symptoms.

 

If it continues to go on like this for weeks might it be an option to go back to 15mg which is the last dose at which I felt completely stable and had no WD symptoms? I don't want to increase again as I'm aware my system is hypersensitive and destabilised but wanted to know what people think?

 

That is not a good option.  As the saying goes, you can't step in the same river twice.  Due to the changes you've made in dosage, your CNS is not the same CNS as when you were at 15mg before.  You can't expect the same results as before.  Hold where you are and wait to stabilize.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Gridley

[Malbec37]

Hey all just thought I'd provide an update

 

The past few days my symptoms have been all over the place....Monday I had a really good day and felt great with high energy and mood. Tuesday started ok then my mood plummeted and got hit by high anxiety in the evening. Weds started with low energy but in the evening felt pretty good and went to a 5 Rthymns dance event so must have been feeling ok...Thursday was HORRENDOUS! Was in training all day and felt very low in mood, low in energy, couldn't concentrate for more than 10 seconds...felt like walking out I was so scared and uncomfortable - nightmare....then today I have felt relatively ok and calm and work has been fine...the tinnitus has been there throughout and shows no sign of disappearing but it's manageable and I only notice it when in a quiet place

 

So all in all my symptoms are all over the place but I know that is to be expected and I'm keeping on going 

 

I did go and see a herbalist on Weds who had apparently helped wean people off mirtazapine...he gave me a tincture that included things for the nervous system like passionflower and then stuff to help my liver to detox....I took it twice yesterday during the horrendous day and I'm not sure if it made my symptoms worse or I was just having a nightmare day but I've stopped now as @Gridleyhad warned me about putting herbs into my system and that they could make WD worse...also the tincture is in alcohol so that probably makes it worse too?

 

The herbalist also recommended various amino acids in powders that apparently helps with the creation of energy in the mitochondria calls...D-Robose, L-Carmitine, Alpha Lipoic Acid and CoQ10...he said it wouldn't affect withdrawal and could only help but I'm not so sure...any thoughts or experience here from anyone?

[Gridley]

47 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

hen stuff to help my liver to detox

We do not recommend liver detox during withdrawal. Altostrata wrote:

 

"Hmmm, I feel I must point out here that withdrawal symptoms are not due to toxicity, but to the ABSENCE of a drug upon which the body has become dependent. The liver has done its job properly and caused what it can to be excreted.

 

Given that we urge gradual tapering, anything of the drug remaining in fat or tissues could be considered to cushion, however minimally, the lack of the drug the body is craving. If you are in the middle of tapering, which means you're deliberately slowing the passage of the drug from your body, why would you want to speed the drug out of your system with liver detoxification (assuming that would work)?

 

My belief is that, our bodies and nervous systems being under so much stress from withdrawal, detoxing the liver or any other ritual of purification only adds further stress and doesn't do anything positive for proper withdrawal. (Liver detox was developed for serious, identifiable heavy metal poisoning.) Liver cleansing is one of those things naturopathic medicine routinely recommends for all kinds of ills, with very little evidence it helps any of them. I do not think it's appropriate for withdrawal syndrome."

 

Regarding the amino acids, many supplements that would be tolerable to someone not in withdrawal are too much for someone who is.  I would be wary. 

 

[Malbec37]

@Gridley and others....I've had another very poor night of sleep with insomnia 

 

I was thinking of buying this supplement which has natural melatonin, magnesium, chamomile, Montmorency Cherry and 5htp....what do you think? I think I recall 5 HTP wasn't;t recommended for people in SA but can't remember why?

 

I'm getting pretty desperate for more sleep so hoping I can find something to help

[sunnysideup69]

55 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

@Gridley and others....I've had another very poor night of sleep with insomnia 

 

I was thinking of buying this supplement which has natural melatonin, magnesium, chamomile, Montmorency Cherry and 5htp....what do you think? I think I recall 5 HTP wasn't;t recommended for people in SA but can't remember why?

 

I'm getting pretty desperate for more sleep so hoping I can find something to help

 

Hey @Malbec37, I feel for you and believe me, I know how awful lack of sleep is, as do most people here. 

BUT. I honestly wouldn't mess around with supplements with 5HTP. You're not supposed to take it in conjunction with antidepressants anyway, because it increases serotonin. I tried it in 2016 a whole year after coming off anti deps completely, and it really mucked me up.

I can hear that you're feeling a bit desperate, as you say. But don't be tempted to throw random mixes of supplements at your symptoms because then it's hard to know what's causing what.

Melatonin is recommended here on this site, but in very small amounts, because that can also go paradoxical if you take too much.

 

I hate to say this also, but you have to accept the insomnia when it happens and rather than get into a stress about it, lie and relax, listen to a meditation, listen to The Honest Guys on you tube or some such channel with relaxations. Sometimes I count from 100, 000 backwards in my head....it works  

Also, and I knicked this from Baylissa, if you wake, tell yourself you're awake because your brain needs you to be awake right now for some particular adjustment to occur in your brain for healing. 

Get up and read.

So much of this is about acceptance. It's temporary and it's bl**dy annoying, yes, but it will pass. Also had a shocker of a sleep last night......my own fault though, I had plenty sugar yesterday, argh!

[Gridley]

3 hours ago, Malbec37 said:

5 HTP wasn't;t recommended

sunnysideup is right, Malbec.  I'd stay away from it.

[Malbec37]

@sunnysideup69thanks so much for your input and support it's invaluable 

 

Yes I guess I'm panicking...I have now had insomnia most nights for a month and tinnitus non stop for a month (alongside other WD effects) so I have really tried to be accepting of this state of affairs but it's unbelievably hard as you know....I just had no idea that things could turn out like this in withdrawal and I'm sure everyone else on the site feels the same - I have no idea how some people with children, jobs, partners etc can cope with this process!?

 

I can handle the insomnia just about...today I got up and went and taught a good yoga class to 20 students and didn't lose my **** so there is resilience there it's just the not knowing which is tough....you read in some places that these drugs destroy your sleep and I guess my fear is that it'll never come back properly...but it's just another fear and I'm trying to tell myself that he body is healing all the time - thing is no-one really knows if it is and how long...we just have to trust I guess?

 

Thanks for the advice re the 5 HTP you're completely right....I can't get melatonin here in the UK so maybe I could try low doses of a Montmorency Cherry supplement as this seems to have it naturally in?

 

I'm also going to write up a plan for sleep....thanks for all the extra tips

 

Sorry you slept bad and hope you have a good day

@Gridleyhow about trying Montmorency Cherry for the melatonin?

[Gridley]

4 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

Montmorency Cherry

I remember you can't get Melatonin in the U.K.  I would start with a very small dosage of the cherry (I'm assuming there aren't any other ingredients) and see how it works.  I'm not familiar withe the cherry but with melatonin a very small doses is advisable and too large a dose can be paradoxical (keep you awake).

[Malbec37]

@Gridleythanks...this is the kind of product out there https://www.amazon.co.uk/Montmorency-Capsules-Extract-Nu-Nutrition/dp/B01M0S1KIN/ref=sr_1_7?crid=EUJMKZO8GB66&keywords=montmorency+cherry+capsules&qid=1579962089&sprefix=month%2Caps%2C157&sr=8-7

 

Perhaps if taking one is too much I could try and open the capsules and start on half of one?

[Gridley]

11 minutes ago, Malbec37 said:

 

Perhaps if taking one is too much I could try and open the capsules and start on half of one?

Yes, you could try that.

[Malbec37]

Quick update for those following: On day 23 of 13mg updose of mirtazapine from 11mg and I am struggling significantly, especially with sleep...last 2 nights I think I slept maybe one hour. I feel wired and not sure how I'm really functioning but it seems that things get better as the day progresses. I can't believe how hard this is....I am being resilient and getting up and going to work etc but the lack of sleep is really getting to me now - I know there's no easy answer so I will just keep going and praying that things will get a little easier...just to get 2 or 3 hours of decent sleep would help me so much 

[hezzer78]

@Malbec37 Forgive me if you mentioned this someplace else, but are you taking anything to help with sleep? I know the popular opinion is 'no more drugs', but honestly, I'm of the mind that if you're struggling significantly, occasional (not repetitive, habitual) usage of something may be what you just have to do.  I've mentioned it before, but I have ativan + benadryl for those reasons. For me, the lack of sleep ramps up my anxiety/depression/low mood/sense of hopelessness - and taking the extra drugs I need to sleep is far worth it. I only take them a few days to get over the lack of sleep hump. Sleep breeds sleep - if I get a few good nights under my belt, i'm good to go.

 

If you still are against taking something to help you sleep, I guess all you can do is make sure you continue good sleep hygeine, no alcohol, low sugar foods, etc. 

[Malbec37]

@hezzer78thanks for the response...you're absolutely right I need to sleep desperately....last 2 nights I haven;t slept a wink and today at work I've been in a desperate state just walking through the day like a zombie and feeling pretty hopeless and at a loss of what to do.  So tonight I will take some clonazepam and maybe a bit of zopicline just to get me some sleep as I am very desperate...maybe for a few nights. I am wary of taking too many days in a row but a couple can't hurt and the benefit of some shut eye to help with everything else far outweighs the negative. 

 

I will continue with all the other good sleep hygiene that I am doing and hopefully things will settle down

 

I'm 23 days into the updose to 13mg and my WD symptoms are as strong as ever and show no signs of settling down

 

I'm coping but it's incredibly hard

 

Thanks for responding I'm really grateful 

[mikeyboy]

I would be really, really, really careful with Zoplicone and Clonazapam.

 

I have got in a real mess with the Zop. It's highly addictive and is basically a Benzo. I regret taking it and am now having to try and taper it too. I wish I hadn't had it.

[Malbec37]

@mikeyboythanks for your response and concern I completely understand. I am completely desperate for a good night sleep so I will use one or both of them for tonight in small doses...I have had them prescribed to me for years and have taken them sparingly from time to time when necessary...normally once or twice a month at most. In this way it has never posed me a problem as I have never used regularly. It's not ideal I agree but then neither is 2 nights in a row of zero sleep and another to come would leave me in a very bad place so I need to get some sleep to be able to function and go to work. Desperate time and all that...

 

It's a short term measure only and not a substitute for more healthy ways to tackle my insomnia 

 

I'm sorry you're having to taper Zopiclone also and wish you well with that

 

Thanks for being there for me and caring 

[Malbec37]

Quick update on progress....last night I took the Zopiclone and clonazepam as well as a capsule of monmerency cherry and a mug of horlicks before bed (and an Epsom salts bath) and I slept deeply for the first time in ages! Today I have felt so much better and feel human again!

 

Tonight I will try without the prescription sleep meds as I don't want to use them regularly at all....will continue with the cherry and the horlicks alongside magnesium and fish oil.

 

Hope everyone following my thread is doing ok

 

I am also reading a fascinating booked recommended by @Gridleycalled Anatomy of an Epidemic which is all about the rise of psychiatric drugs and it's pretty crazy reading and making me more determined than ever to gently wean myself off this stuff

 

Much Love 

 

Malbec

[Malbec37]

Hi everyone here is an update on how I am doing:

 

I am now almost one month into the updose to 13mg from 11mg and it has been an absolute rollercoaster of withdrawal but today I am having my best day in the month and think I'm in a 'window' and hoping it lasts. I still have tinnitus although it's not bothering me as much and my sleep is about 4 to 5 hours a night then waking up early around 5am and stuck in light REM dream sleep...but I'm coping and don't feel all that tired surprisingly...maybe we need less sleep than we think!?

 

So I'm doing ok and definitely feel like I'm slowly stabilising and my energy levels the past 2 days have been good and mood pretty solid.

 

I went to the pharmacy today and they said they couldn't guarantee me the same brand of mirtazapine (Remeron) each time which is frustrating :(...but I'm thinking that hopefully it will not be too much of a problem as the mirtazapine tablet is Active Ingredient 15mg mirtazapine and weighs 15.5mg so there is hardly any fillers and binders....can anyone comment here on this and advise what they think? Seems like I am going to be getting different brands each time until I get onto the liquid but that is a long way down the line

 

I am considering starting some regular counselling once a week to help me with the withdrawal process...has anyone found this beneficial? I can't imagine that it would not be...

 

Continuing to eat the best possible diet, doing lots of yoga, walking, running and now back gardening on my allotment so that all helps

 

Finally I have told my parents what is happening and it feels like a relief as I can get support from them....I am not telling my older brother as he is a psychiatrist ha ha!! I will wait until later for that interesting conversation  

 

That's it for now....hope all are well and would be great to hear back from any of you who are following my progress

 

Malbec

[pinciukas]

1 hour ago, Malbec37 said:

Hi everyone here is an update on how I am doing:

 

I am now almost one month into the updose to 13mg from 11mg and it has been an absolute rollercoaster of withdrawal but today I am having my best day in the month and think I'm in a 'window' and hoping it lasts. I still have tinnitus although it's not bothering me as much and my sleep is about 4 to 5 hours a night then waking up early around 5am and stuck in light REM dream sleep...but I'm coping and don't feel all that tired surprisingly...maybe we need less sleep than we think!?

 

So I'm doing ok and definitely feel like I'm slowly stabilising and my energy levels the past 2 days have been good and mood pretty solid.

 

I went to the pharmacy today and they said they couldn't guarantee me the same brand of mirtazapine (Remeron) each time which is frustrating :(...but I'm thinking that hopefully it will not be too much of a problem as the mirtazapine tablet is Active Ingredient 15mg mirtazapine and weighs 15.5mg so there is hardly any fillers and binders....can anyone comment here on this and advise what they think? Seems like I am going to be getting different brands each time until I get onto the liquid but that is a long way down the line

 

I am considering starting some regular counselling once a week to help me with the withdrawal process...has anyone found this beneficial? I can't imagine that it would not be...

 

Continuing to eat the best possible diet, doing lots of yoga, walking, running and now back gardening on my allotment so that all helps

 

Finally I have told my parents what is happening and it feels like a relief as I can get support from them....I am not telling my older brother as he is a psychiatrist ha ha!! I will wait until later for that interesting conversation  

 

That's it for now....hope all are well and would be great to hear back from any of you who are following my progress

 

Malbec

I don't know where you are from. I am in the Netherlands so I told my doctor that I am allergic to other brands and can't tolerate them so the pharmacy gives me the same brand all the time.

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Malbec37 said:

went to the pharmacy today and they said they couldn't guarantee me the same brand of mirtazapine (Remeron) each time which is frustrating

 First of all, great report.  I'm very happy you're doing well.

 

When switching brands, we recommend a gradual crossover to minimize or avoid stress to you system.

 

3/4 old brand, 1/4 new for 3 to 7 days

1/2 old, 1/2 new for 3 to 7 days

1/4 old, 3/4 for 3 to 7 days

all new thereafter

[Malbec37]

@GridleyThanks for this info very helpful...I'm going to go speak to my doctor as I can't really believe that the pharmacy can not get the same brand...it's such a pain to have to change brands. I hope you're doing well

 

@pinciukasthanks I'll go and see my doctor asap

[sunnysideup69]

Hey Malbec, glad you're doing better. I sometimes wonder about getting the same brand. So far, I have, but I'm thinking to  not get my prescription sent to one particular pharmacy just in case they don't have the brand I'm currently taking. That way, I can shop around if they are out of stock....I'm in London, you can most likely do that in Bristol, also?

[Malbec37]

Hey @sunnysideup69good to hear from you

 

So I went to see the pharmacist where my GP is and they said that I can ask for the doctor to add the particular brand to the prescription so that I get the same one each time...they don't stock the one I'm currently using so will have to do a cross over then can stick to one after that

 

The pharmacist did say it would be easiest for me to get onto the liquid mirtazapine so I have booked an appointment with the GP and I'm wondering whether, if he does say this is ok, would it be better for me to switch to the liquid now as opposed to further down the line?...realistically I'm probably looking at another 2 years of tapering the way things are currently going

 

Question to all: I have had a few good days recently but insomnia hit hard on Monday night (the same day I had my best day in a month)....I woke at 2am and felt like death on Tuesday....I did go out to the cinema Monday night and had some ice cream around 9pm that would have had loads of sugar...could that have affected me and made my sleep worse? 

 

In a more general question I am now a month into the updose to 13mg and I feel like I'm nowhere near settled yet....it's been one of the hardest months of my life and I don't know how long this period of up and down WD will last....I know I have to taper super slowly when I do hopefully stabilise but is it normal to not be feeling settled yet after a month? I know I have to be patient I guess I'm just needing some consistency and feel like I'm crashing around in the high seas with this WD effect

[sunnysideup69]

2 hours ago, Malbec37 said:

Hey @sunnysideup69good to hear from you

 

The pharmacist did say it would be easiest for me to get onto the liquid mirtazapine so I have booked an appointment with the GP and I'm wondering whether, if he does say this is ok, would it be better for me to switch to the liquid now as opposed to further down the line?..

 

Not sure what your advice will be on that...hold on for a moderator. When you DO switch to a liquid, however, you will most likely be advised to cross taper as with different brands of tablet.

2 hours ago, Malbec37 said:

 

Question to all: I have had a few good days recently but insomnia hit hard on Monday night (the same day I had my best day in a month)....I woke at 2am and felt like death on Tuesday....I did go out to the cinema Monday night and had some ice cream around 9pm that would have had loads of sugar...could that have affected me and made my sleep worse? 

Yes, sugar definitely disturbs my sleep.

 

 

2 hours ago, Malbec37 said:

 

In a more general question I am now a month into the updose to 13mg and I feel like I'm nowhere near settled yet....it's been one of the hardest months of my life and I don't know how long this period of up and down WD will last....I know I have to taper super slowly when I do hopefully stabilise but is it normal to not be feeling settled yet after a month? I know I have to be patient I guess I'm just needing some consistency and feel like I'm crashing around in the high seas with this WD effect

Totally normal, you're only a month into switching. You are having windows and waves and it's totally normal.

[Malbec37]

@sunnysideup69thanks for the input it’s greatly appreciated I think I just need some more reassurance that it’s normal to feel like this and it is really reassuring. 😀

[Malbec37]

Update on my taper

 

@GridleyAnother terrible night of sleep...I feel wretched, low mood - this is just unbelievable really I'm almost 40 days into the updose to 13mg and there is no stability - I feel despairing of my situation....I know I've had better days but I feel like I'm really running out of coping skills now

 

I'm also REALLY confused by the dosing...I weighed my last 6 tablets this morning and they came out as 15.4, 15, 15, 15.5, 15.5 and 14mg! I mean how can one of them weigh 14mg when it's supposed to have AI 15mg mirtazapine!? They're so inconsistent and because my CNS is clearly highly sensitised I am not getting a consistent amount when I weigh 13mg  

 

I thank I'm mostly confused because I'm so tired

 

I am seeing the doctor tomorrow and I will ask about the liquid because at least it will be consistent....I am also seriously tempted to updose to 15mg and try and stabilise there because the tablets would be consistent amount of mertazapine so one less thing to worry about hopefully. but I'm also worried about what you say about further desensitising my system with anther updose?

 

I'm so sorry to lay this on you I'm just struggling so bad with sleep deprivation and don't know what to do

 

Malbec

[Pens]

On 2/5/2020 at 4:35 PM, Malbec37 said:

reassurance that it’s normal to feel like this and it is really reassuring. 😀

Hi, I’m sorry you’re having a rough spot. I’m going through one today myself. I know if I eat too close to bedtime I don’t have a very good morning. Been watching what I eat and that seems to help. Yesterday I had a couple windows and it was nice. I’m tapering on liquid mirtazapine but I’m sure a moderator would be better to advise you. Take one day at a time and try to fill each one with good things. Your on a good site. All the best to you. Keep well. Hope you get a good sleep tonight. 💐

[Gridley]

4 hours ago, Malbec37 said:

'm also REALLY confused by the dosing.

 

You are weighing pill weight,  not active ingredient.  There is more pill weight than active ingredient in a tablet because of the filler, and the variances between tablets are are going to be negligible in terms of active ingredient you're receiving.  That's why we suggest weighing ten tablets and use the average weight as your standard thereafter, rather than weighing each tablet every time you make a dose.   

 

If you do the liquid, you will need to do a crossover from tablet to liquid to reduce shock to your system.

3/4 tablet, 1/4 liquid for 3 to 7 days

1/2 tablet, 1/2 liquid for 3 to 7 days

1/4 tablet, 1/2 liquid for 3 to 7 days

all liquid thereafter.

 

Some people don't do well on the liquid.  In any event, you will have to stabilize from the change.  I would not recommend a change at this time because you are still stabilizing and don't need to insert another variable into the mix.  It is wise to resist the temptation to tinker with dosage or method of drug delivery while your system is working so hard to stabilize.

 

I would strongly advise again jumping to 15 while you are still stabilizing at 13.  That's a large jump and could be destabilizing.

It takes weeks and sometimes months to stabilize after an updose.  Go to 15 and you are adding more weeks/months to the equation..

 

There are my recommendations.  You are free to do as you choose.

[Malbec37]

18 minutes ago, Gridley said:

You are weighing pill weight,  not active ingredient.  There is more pill weight than active ingredient in a tablet because of the filler, and the variances between tablets are are going to be negligible in terms of active ingredient you're receiving.  That's why we suggest weighing ten tablets and use the average weight as your standard thereafter, rather than weighing each tablet every time you make a dose.   

 

 @Gridleyso are you saying that if I have 10 tablets that all weigh slightly different amounts and the average weight of the 10 is 15.46mg then the calculation to get 13mg mertazapine should be 13/15 = 0.87 and then x this by the average weight of 15.46 gives me 13.39mg to weigh? Is that correct?

 

I have just been weighing 13mg each time so perhaps this is contributing to my WD problems 

[Gridley]

1 minute ago, Malbec37 said:

the average weight of the 10 is 15.46mg

How many milligrams of active ingredient are the pills you are weighing?  By active ingredient I mean the number of mg that's on the bottle.

[Malbec37]

3 minutes ago, Gridley said:

How many milligrams of active ingredient are the pills you are weighing?  By active ingredient I mean the number of mg that's on the bottle.

There is 15 milligrams of active ingredient in each pill...it says so on the packet 

 

It says Mertazapine 15mg tablets 

Each film coated tablet contains 15mg of mirtazapine