Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted February 12, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Malbec37 said: here is 15 milligrams of active ingredient in each pill...it says so on the packet And what is the average weight of 10 15mg pills? Is it the 15.46mg you said earlier. If so, the active ingredient mg and the pill weight mg would be almost the same, which would be very unusual. For example, I'm using 20mg Lexapro for my taper and the average weight of the tablets is 200mg, so I have a 10:1 ratio mgpw (pill weight) to mgai. Please double check. Edited February 12, 2020 by Gridley Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, Gridley said: And what is the average weight of 10 15mg pills? Is it the 15.46mg you said earlier. If so, the active ingredient mg and the pill weight mg would be almost the same, which would be very unusual. For example, I'm using 20mg Lexapro for my taper and the average weight of the tablets is 200mg, so I have a 10:1 ratio mgpw (pill weight) to mgai. Please double check. Yes it's exactly as you say...the typical pill weights around 15.5 but some are slightly less and some slightly more....so 10 tablets average weight would be 15.46 - it's the way that it is with the 15mg mirtazaine tablets they weigh almost the same amount as the active ingredient That's why I thought measuring a consistent amount of 13mg on the scales would be ok as it was consistent...but now I'm realising that the amount of AI in each 13mg would have been slightly different so I have not been getting consistency and is this contributing to my ongoing WD after 40 days? Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Hamster Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 5 hours ago, Malbec37 said: Update on my taper @GridleyAnother terrible night of sleep...I feel wretched, low mood - this is just unbelievable really I'm almost 40 days into the updose to 13mg and there is no stability - I feel despairing of my situation....I know I've had better days but I feel like I'm really running out of coping skills now ... I thank I'm mostly confused because I'm so tired ... Hi Malbec, this sounds very familiar to me. I am also tapering from Mirt and I had to wait for quite some time before something like stability set in. Same with coping: With a lot of experience, quite some talk therapy sessions and a lot of trial and error I can nowadays cope with most "normal" lows of Mirt withdrawal. For example, distraction works - but to a certain point, then it breaks down and my mind gets into fighting mode against itself and the bad mood. Completely useless and I am totally exhausted afterwards, but from a certain point onwards, I haven't found a reliable way around yet. It will become better over time, though. Concerning doseage: The best way for me was to get "soltabs" of mirt, dissolve / suspend them in a defined amount of water and then get out the dose I need with a syringe. Good descriptions can be found using the search function. Grinding down normal tablets using a mortar and making a suspension worked for me too, but is way more time-consuming. Regards, Hamster 1 Nov 2018: St. John's Wort 900 mg Extract / day Dec 2018: fast taper of St. John's Wort (900 mg -> 0 in about 2 weeks)Jan 2019: start of citalopram (10 mg/d) and mirtazapine (30 mg/d) Feb 2019: citalopram increased to 20 mg/d, start of talk therapyMarch 2019: 10 mg/d citalopram & 15 mg/d mirtazapine April 2019: 7 mg/d citalopram & 7.5 mg/d mirtazapineMay 2019: 5 mg/d citalopram & 5 mg/d mirtazapine June 2019: 5 mg/d citalopram & 3.75 mg/d mirtazapine July 2019: 5 mg/d citalopram & 3.12 mg/d mirtazapine July 16th 2019: 5 mg/d citalopram & 2.5 mg/d mirtazapine August 22nd 2019: 5 mg/d citalopram & 2.2 mg/d mirtazapine September 20th 2019: 5 mg/d citalopram & 2.0 mg/d mirtazapine -> BM slide (around 2%/week, some holds). Feb 2020: 3.4 mg/d citalopram & 1.5 mg/d mirtazapine, Jan 2021: 0.9 mg/d citalopram & 0.5 mg/d mirtazapine, July 2021: 0.0 mg - drug free! Supplements: linseed oil for omega3 (can't tolerate fishoil), magnesium, B12 and folate Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted February 12, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 12, 2020 6 minutes ago, Malbec37 said: Yes it's exactly as you say. 13mgai is .87% of 15mgai. So you would multiply .87 X 15.46 (or you could round to 15.5) and whatever that weight is would be 13mgai. 10 minutes ago, Malbec37 said: so I have not been getting consistency and is this contributing to my ongoing WD after 40 days? You have been getting consistency if you're weighing 13mgpw every time. It's just not exactly 13mgai. 15.5 X .87 = 13.49 (I would round to 13.5) mgai So you've been short 0.5mgai and thus didn't updose quite high as you intended. Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted February 12, 2020 Moderator Share Posted February 12, 2020 What is the exact readout on the display of the scales? (0.155?) 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 @brassmonkeyDo you mean when I turn on the gemini scale? It says 0.000 @Gridleythanks so much for confirming that....Yes I agree I have been taking 0.5 short of intended amount but I have also been very consistent in the 13mg so would have thought that the symptoms would have got a bit easier or more consistent by now Also in order to weigh out the 13.5 dose I would have to crush the 10 pills so they're all mixed in together and then extract and weigh the amount is that correct? So instead of just measuring out 13.5 from cutting each pill individually? Sorry for all the questions and very grateful for your input this evening...my brain is so tired at trigging to compute all of this Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted February 12, 2020 Moderator Share Posted February 12, 2020 The exact readout when you are weighing a whole pill. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share Posted February 12, 2020 @brassmonkeyI have just weighed one pill and it is 0.154...but they do vary but not by much although I found one that definitely weighed 0.140 today which I am baffled about....but must be an anomaly Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted February 12, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Malbec37 said: Also in order to weigh out the 13.5 dose I would have to crush the 10 pills so they're all mixed in together and then extract and weigh the amount is that correct? So instead of just measuring out 13.5 from cutting each pill individually? It's not necessary to crush all ten pills. The ten pill average is just to establish your average. If you want to make enough doses, say, for a week's worth (which is what I do), just crush enough pills to make that many pills. Then weigh out your pills one by one and put the powder in your capsules. Edited February 12, 2020 by Gridley 1 Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
hezzer78 Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 If your pills weigh 0.150g, that’s 150mg - not 15mg. A pill that weighed 15mg would be crumbs Are you weighing out 0.130g? (130 mg) or 0.013g? (13 mg) 2018 - Tried Sertaline, Lexapro, and Amitriptyline before settling on Remeron/Mirtazapine - 7.5 mg, October 2019 - Mirtazapine 15 mg - February 2019 Dec 30 - Started Mirtazapine taper 7.5mg 2020 Jan 24 - Tapered 13% to 6.5mg mirtazapine Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted February 13, 2020 Moderator Share Posted February 13, 2020 That gets us on the same page. Units of measure and decimal point location is very important when tapering. As Hezzer pointed out 0.155 on the scale is 155mg and because this is the weight of pill material we refer to it as 155mgpw (milligrams pill weight). If you were to write it as .155mgpw you would be referring to an incredibly small amount, about 1/1000th of what you really mean. This could cause real problems when trying to do a reduction. I gather the strength of the pill is 15mg (as listed on the bottle). This refers to the weight of the actual medication in the pill or the Active Ingredient as it is called. We refer to it as 15mgai (milligrams Active Ingredient) By using these designations we can tell which is pill weight and which is strength when someone is talking about their dose. We almost always refer to doses by their strength or mgai. It looks like you are trying to get a dose with a strength of 13.5mgai. This would be a reduction of 10%. To calculate the dose weight in mgpw you would multiply 155 X .9 = 139.5 mgpw. The scales would read 0.140 because the additional .5mgpw is too small for them to measure. If you are trying to get a dose strength of 13mgai then you would do a Gridley explained and multiply by .87. 155 X .87 = 135mgpw. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted February 14, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 14, 2020 @Malbec37 How are you doing? What are your plans? As it turns out, even though you made an error with the scale and calculating method, the 139.5mgpw that Brassmonkey came up with is not significantly different from the 13.5mgai that you came up with your method, since you were calculating pw and ai as basically the same. So if you're taking 13mgai, per your calculations, by good luck you're not that far off from where you should be. Does the make sense? Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted February 15, 2020 Author Share Posted February 15, 2020 @Gridleythanks SO much for checking in to see how I am doing 😀 Yes it makes sense...I had assumed that consistently taking 13mg weight would be suffice to for me to eventually stabilise on the dose and minimise WD symptoms but, aside from a few windows, most of that 40 day period was a wave and by the end I had run out of coping skills as I have been so sleep deprived from insomnia that I was starting to fall apart. I had taken my first day off sick from work due to WD and was panicking....all part of WD I know but I was no longer able to push on. So two days ago I decided to updose back to 15 as I felt so confused by the amounts (due to sleep deprivation) and the consistency of 15 and not having to weigh and measure was appealing. I was aware of possibility of further destabilisation but went ahead anyway. I went with my gut instinct. Good news is is so far it has seemed to have done the trick and I am feeling much better in mood and sleep has improved. Last night I slept well with with no aides. I think my CNS just wasn’t at all ready for the previous drop I made from 15 to 11 then up to 13 and just needed consistency which it is now getting. There is also likely an element of placebo involved. So I am going to hold at 15 now until very stable....the DR has given me a 4 month supply of same 15mg tablets which provides consistency. When I am stable I will make the switch to either liquid mertazapine (if I can get it) or use the orally disintegrating tablets and then I will start to taper again probably at 5%. I will be able to plan this properly and start with a clear head. What a 6 weeks it has been! But I have learnt a lot and got some WONDERFUL support from yourself and others and I’m just now relieved to be feeling somewhat better and quietly hopeful that I can settle down. 🤞 1 Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted February 15, 2020 Author Share Posted February 15, 2020 Final thing I forgot to mention is that despite the updose I am still 50% of the way there so major progress has been made, so this makes me very happy. This drug is very powerful and is teaching me the lessons I need to learn to eventually fulfill my goal of coming off it and living med free 🙏🏔☀️ Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted February 15, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted February 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Malbec37 said: Good news is is so far it has seemed to have done the trick That's great, Malbec. I'm very happy for you and you have a good plan in place. Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted February 15, 2020 Author Share Posted February 15, 2020 Thanks Gridley I’m hoping you are well and enjoying the clean and clear air of the beautiful Vilcabamba valley 😊 Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted March 4, 2020 Author Share Posted March 4, 2020 Hi all Thought I'd let you know how things are going for me since I increased the mertazapine back to 15mg...it has been 3 weeks now since the updose to 15mg. Initially for the first 3 days I slept better and the updose seemed to do the trick and I felt better in general and much relieved. But since then things have been very up and down and back to windows and waves of stabilisation...currently I am feeling very low and I have nausea as a new symptom which I did not have before. So looks like @Gridleywas right that the updose could potentially cause further destabilisation...no surprise really but I did what I did and no regrets. So I have constant tinnitus, inconsistent sleep, nausea, low mood and anxiety....but I have had some good windows including only 2 days ago where I had my best day in ages and felt really good. And then yesterday felt terrible so it's crazy how quickly things can change! I am taking 15mg every night one hour before bed and quit all alcohol, caffeine, sugar and eating as well as possible I am in a wave today and feel pretty grim but just hoping that things will get easier as I am more consistently on 15mg - I am planning to stay here for the next few months at least to try and steady the ship and hopefully see the back of WD symptoms for now so that I can start the next reductions from a place of no WD. Not much else to say really other than I am taking one day at a time and hoping things will get easier with time and I won't be thrown around so much as it's making my work and social life pretty challenging Malbec Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
sunnysideup69 Posted March 8, 2020 Share Posted March 8, 2020 Hey @Malbec37, just dropping by to see how you're doing. On 3/4/2020 at 9:26 AM, Malbec37 said: Initially for the first 3 days I slept better and the updose seemed to do the trick and I felt better in general and much relieved. But since then things have been very up and down and back to windows and waves of stabilisation.. Yep, when I was updosing the Citalopram back in 2018, that happened for me every time, too. Initial 3 or 4 days felt more sedated thus better, then all hell broke loose. Back to windows and waves. I agree with you, you've done what you've done, and you know now that you are getting a consistent amount of mirtazipine. So you can stop worrying about that variable. It's better to think about stabilisation in terms of months rather than weeks...a wise person said that to me in the beginning and I didn't listen, hence kept updosing and switched drugs. None of that helped. What has helped most is the passing of time, reducing as much stress as possible and coping strategies. Also, reaching out on here and talking online with people who are going through this themselves. And of course, sometimes I've just flailed around feeling awful, but have managed to get back into coping strategies again. On 3/4/2020 at 9:26 AM, Malbec37 said: I am in a wave today and feel pretty grim but just hoping that things will get easier as I am more consistently on 15mg - I am planning to stay here for the next few months at least to try and steady the ship and hopefully see the back of WD symptoms for now so that I can start the next reductions from a place of no WD. Not much else to say really other than I am taking one day at a time and hoping things will get easier with time and I won't be thrown around so much as it's making my work and social life pretty challenging . Slowly slowly, things will get easier. It takes time, and it also teaches you how powerful these drugs actually are and what they really do to the CNS. So much of this is about surrendering and trust, for me, anyway....and wow, have found that difficult, still do. Just hold on and be optimistic about recovery, because it is happening.....andalso realistic that it takes time. I like to think that this is all preparation for helping us to deal with life without psychiatric drugs, if you can get through WD, you can get through anything. Sending virtual support from a fellow West Country-er January 2008 to April 2015 Citalopram 20mg to 5mg, reducing in 50 per cent leaps. Jumped off at 5mg March 2016 used MDMA triggered setback April 2016 Citalopram 10mg October 2016 cut to 5mg, May 2017 cut to 2.5mg May 2018 used MDMA triggered setback June 2018 Citalopram 2.5mg up to 10mg, then back to 5mg July/ August 2018 7.5mg, then 10mg June 2019 updosed to 20mg Citalopram August 2019 cold switch to Venlafaxine 75mg XR Supplements; 1100mg fish oil daily; also 100mg Magnesium Glycinate. Tried Vagifem 10mcg from mid May 2021 to mid June 2021; caused depression, so stopped. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted March 9, 2020 Author Share Posted March 9, 2020 @sunnysideup69what a lovely message to get thanks so much for checking in with me and responding I’m truly grateful all of what you say rings true to me and is full of understanding and hard earned wisdom. Yes these drugs are more powerful than I could ever have believed and certainly the only way for us to come off them is slowly and gently. We have learnt the hard way but you are so right if we can survive and succeed in withdrawal (which we will) then we can cope with anything life throws at us I am learning bit by bit to reduce stress and increase coping strategies and I am feeling my way through this and knowing that you are there and others like @Gridleyand more on mertazapine FB support groups is a great source of comfort Take care brother and stay in touch 1 Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
sunnysideup69 Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 On 3/9/2020 at 10:44 PM, Malbec37 said: @sunnysideup69what a lovely message to get thanks so much for checking in with me and responding I’m truly grateful all of what you say rings true to me and is full of understanding and hard earned wisdom. Yes these drugs are more powerful than I could ever have believed and certainly the only way for us to come off them is slowly and gently. We have learnt the hard way but you are so right if we can survive and succeed in withdrawal (which we will) then we can cope with anything life throws at us I am learning bit by bit to reduce stress and increase coping strategies and I am feeling my way through this and knowing that you are there and others like @Gridleyand more on mertazapine FB support groups is a great source of comfort Take care brother and stay in touch Hey @Malbec37, Just checking in again. Family issues have kept me away for a while, have had to reduce exposure to triggers cos I'm already so anxious. Anyways, how ya doin', Malbec? It's difficult to reduce stress in these wobbly times so we really need those coping strategies, I'm finding. I'm trying to distract as much as possible at the moment. I'm also finding that the current climate is quite anxiety provoking in itself. Really want to stay informed but limiting news exposure at the moment to the PM's updates. How are you managing all of this? Tips greatly appreciated PS I am your 'sister' January 2008 to April 2015 Citalopram 20mg to 5mg, reducing in 50 per cent leaps. Jumped off at 5mg March 2016 used MDMA triggered setback April 2016 Citalopram 10mg October 2016 cut to 5mg, May 2017 cut to 2.5mg May 2018 used MDMA triggered setback June 2018 Citalopram 2.5mg up to 10mg, then back to 5mg July/ August 2018 7.5mg, then 10mg June 2019 updosed to 20mg Citalopram August 2019 cold switch to Venlafaxine 75mg XR Supplements; 1100mg fish oil daily; also 100mg Magnesium Glycinate. Tried Vagifem 10mcg from mid May 2021 to mid June 2021; caused depression, so stopped. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted March 23, 2020 Author Share Posted March 23, 2020 Hi @sunnysideup69! Oh wow sister I had no idea! I don't know why I presumed you were my brother...sorry! Thanks for getting in touch again, it's lovely to hear from you I'm doing ok all things considered but yes I am suffering from the anxiety of where the world is at and the effect of the virus....has made us all seem so vulnerable and makes me quite emotional just thinking about it. I am SO thankful that I am in a better place than I was at the beginning of the year when my WD was at its worst...I don't know how I would have coped. Currently I am doing pretty well from WD perspective and I am sleeping consistently well and other symptoms are mostly low level...I have settled as you always said that I would I am managing by reaching out to people online, speaking to friends on the phone, limiting news, going for long walks in nature, getting sunshine when possible, running, online counselling, chanting, meditating Are you in London? X Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
sunnysideup69 Posted March 23, 2020 Share Posted March 23, 2020 @Malbec37, haha, no apology needed! I'm so glad to hear you've settled. That's great! Those strategies are brilliant...also using some of them. I am in London, yes, although I hail from Wiltshire. I've lived here for 29 years now. We've currently gone into a new reality here, at the moment, and this is day 1. Very bizarre, to be honest, but just getting by as best as possible. January 2008 to April 2015 Citalopram 20mg to 5mg, reducing in 50 per cent leaps. Jumped off at 5mg March 2016 used MDMA triggered setback April 2016 Citalopram 10mg October 2016 cut to 5mg, May 2017 cut to 2.5mg May 2018 used MDMA triggered setback June 2018 Citalopram 2.5mg up to 10mg, then back to 5mg July/ August 2018 7.5mg, then 10mg June 2019 updosed to 20mg Citalopram August 2019 cold switch to Venlafaxine 75mg XR Supplements; 1100mg fish oil daily; also 100mg Magnesium Glycinate. Tried Vagifem 10mcg from mid May 2021 to mid June 2021; caused depression, so stopped. Link to comment
sunnysideup69 Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 How's it going @Malbec37? January 2008 to April 2015 Citalopram 20mg to 5mg, reducing in 50 per cent leaps. Jumped off at 5mg March 2016 used MDMA triggered setback April 2016 Citalopram 10mg October 2016 cut to 5mg, May 2017 cut to 2.5mg May 2018 used MDMA triggered setback June 2018 Citalopram 2.5mg up to 10mg, then back to 5mg July/ August 2018 7.5mg, then 10mg June 2019 updosed to 20mg Citalopram August 2019 cold switch to Venlafaxine 75mg XR Supplements; 1100mg fish oil daily; also 100mg Magnesium Glycinate. Tried Vagifem 10mcg from mid May 2021 to mid June 2021; caused depression, so stopped. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted April 20, 2020 Author Share Posted April 20, 2020 Hi everyone I'be been quiet for some time...mostly I have been doing better than I was at the start of the year but recently I have been hit by a strong and heavy wave of withdrawal symptoms for the past week or so and I'm really struggling especially with sleep again...I seem to wake around 4am then cannot sleep more and my head just buzzes and I toss and turn and feel pretty despairing about it all. I'm not sure there is anything I can do other than wait for another window to return? I have been on 15mg mirtazapine for 65 days now and I have definitely had better periods of good windows so I must hold onto hope that this will come again But right now I feel sick to death of this process and the journey from 15 to 0 and then freedom from mirtazapine feels a very long way away...it is all so exhausting So this is how I feel right now but today I will try and have a productive day and get into nature and hope things will improve again Malbec Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Erell Posted April 20, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted April 20, 2020 6 hours ago, Malbec37 said: I'be been quiet for some time...mostly I have been doing better than I was at the start of the year but recently I have been hit by a strong and heavy wave of withdrawal symptoms for the past week or so and I'm really struggling especially with sleep again...I seem to wake around 4am then cannot sleep more and my head just buzzes and I toss and turn and feel pretty despairing about it all. I'm not sure there is anything I can do other than wait for another window to return? Hello Malbec, I utterly understand the need to do something, we all feel it sometimes : but actually you ARE doing something. By holding your dose steady, you're offfering time for your CNS to stabilise and do all his healing work. And that's actually the best you can do. The fact that you already have been doing better is a very good sign : you're on the right path, your CNS just need more time. We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems. Take care ❤️ 2006 : 20mg Paxil+Bromazepam. 2008 : cold turkey of both. 2010 : Reinstatement 20mg Paxil + Bromazepam. 2014-June2017 : Switch from Bromazepam to Prazepam, slow taper to 0mg. 2018 to August 2019 : Paxil 20mg taper (3% every 15 days). 22 Aug 2019 updose to 10mg (was at 8.4mg). 25th Sept 2019 To April 2020 : found SA, holding at 10mg Paxil. April 2020 : Paxil 10mg to Prozac 7mg bridge. Details : topic/21457 Current Supplements : magnesium citrate + fish oil Current medication : * 7pm Diazepam : 0.85mg (15 Aug 2022) / 0.95 mg (24 April 2022) / 1mg Diazepam (since 29 Aug 2020) * 8am Prozac : 6.16mg (25 oct 2022, feel awful, slight updose) / 6.08 mg (9 oct 2022) / 6.24mg (11 July 22) / 6.44mg (22 May 22) / 6.64mg (4 Nov 21) / 6.72mg (8 oct 21) / 6.8 mg (15 Sept 21)/ 6.88mg (14 Aug 21)/ 6.92mg (23 Jun 21) I am not a professional, I don't give medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted April 20, 2020 Author Share Posted April 20, 2020 @Erellthanks SO much for coming back to me it's really reassuring to hear from you! I have been hit by a wave for sure and it's my CNS healing that is good to hear....very painful each time but it's good to know that I am doing the right thing by holding on 15mg and allowing the CNS to catch up - it's definitely a patience game Sometimes it feels so tempting to make a couple of reductions and then come off and just ride it out...it's like a fantasy really that I could succeed somehow and not have to go through 2 years plus more of tapering just to get to 0....when I look at the size of 15mg I think how can this have such an effect on me it's so small but I know from experience of dropping from 15 to 11 that it was completely unmanageable and the WD symptoms so terrible so the only way is to stabilise then start a very slow taper What a journey we are all on....and what insanity that so many psychiatrists and doctors don't even recognise withdrawal and say it's the return of original symptoms...how utterly naive and makes me so crazy at times I see you take evening primrose oil what does that help you with? Thanks again Malbec Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Erell Posted April 20, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted April 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Malbec37 said: thanks it's definitely a patience game Yes it is, but a game that gets better and better as time passes 4 hours ago, Malbec37 said: so the only way is to stabilise then start a very slow taper Exactly. And while waiting patiently for stabilisation, I advise you to practice selfcare and nondrugs coping skills : take a look at the "Symptoms and selfcare" section, lot of good stuff there 4 hours ago, Malbec37 said:I see you take evening primrose oil what does that help you with? I take evening primrose oil to help with my intense PMS. Since I've destabilised my CNS, I have very hard times before my periods with increased symptoms. Evening primrose oil is known to help women with hard PMS. As any supplements, try one at very low doses. Take care ❤ 2006 : 20mg Paxil+Bromazepam. 2008 : cold turkey of both. 2010 : Reinstatement 20mg Paxil + Bromazepam. 2014-June2017 : Switch from Bromazepam to Prazepam, slow taper to 0mg. 2018 to August 2019 : Paxil 20mg taper (3% every 15 days). 22 Aug 2019 updose to 10mg (was at 8.4mg). 25th Sept 2019 To April 2020 : found SA, holding at 10mg Paxil. April 2020 : Paxil 10mg to Prozac 7mg bridge. Details : topic/21457 Current Supplements : magnesium citrate + fish oil Current medication : * 7pm Diazepam : 0.85mg (15 Aug 2022) / 0.95 mg (24 April 2022) / 1mg Diazepam (since 29 Aug 2020) * 8am Prozac : 6.16mg (25 oct 2022, feel awful, slight updose) / 6.08 mg (9 oct 2022) / 6.24mg (11 July 22) / 6.44mg (22 May 22) / 6.64mg (4 Nov 21) / 6.72mg (8 oct 21) / 6.8 mg (15 Sept 21)/ 6.88mg (14 Aug 21)/ 6.92mg (23 Jun 21) I am not a professional, I don't give medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted May 5, 2020 Author Share Posted May 5, 2020 Hello all thought I'd leave an update on my progress and thoughts around WD - people's input is always very welcome so do leave me a message if you feel drawn I have been looking through some other case histories on here and can see how drawn out and terrible the WD experience can be and my heart goes out to each and every one of us...we all feel our own journey intensely and all long for the day when it is all over and we can face the usual ups and downs of this life journey with a mind free from anti-depressant withdrawal - I am also truly humbled by the moderators here who put SO much effort into trying to help us all and often are taking on extra stress of other people who are in the most challenging part of their WD and searching for some stability...we all owe you so much for your efforts and expertise so THANK YOU I am now coming towards 3 months stabilising on 15mg mertazapine and I am doing SO much better then in January when I came to the SA site...thanks to all especially @Gridleyand @sunnysideup69for the support that helped me to understand what was going on and what I needed to do next I definitely still have waves feelings...my tinnitus is still pretty constant and sleep not too good, especially in the early mornings when I am very restless and toss and turn in bed like a boat dragged around in the high seas! But once I am up and going then things seems to get better...I focus a lot on calming my CNS through the best possible whole food diet, yoga, walks in nature, gardening, listening to healing music....I really try to avoid sugar, have quit alcohol and almost quit caffeine (I still have one coffee first thing 7am which I cannot seem to let go of yet)..... I am now considering my strategy for the next part of my journey - from 15 to 0. The first thing I am going to do is tell my older brother what I am doing...he is a psychiatrist here in the UK and his partner is also a psychiatrist...and they have both seen me in some very bad states in my life due to severe depression (including hospitalisation in my darkest hour) so I have always been nervous to tell him as I am fearful of his reaction and a lack of the support that I so desperately need. I know he just wants the best for me and he doesn't understand depression experientially as he's fortunately never been through it. I think it will just take him some time to come round to what I am doing...he is one of the better psychiatrists around and not a wholesale advocate of the 'medical model' and biological basis of mental illness but still I am sure that he thinks I should take my tablets forever due to my 'recurrent depression' and why rock the boat when I'm doing so well for so long...but I am completely clear on what I want to and will achieve to be medication free in my life and I will soon open up this conversation - a lot of what I have learn on my WD journey and on SA forum will be of great benefit to me when I speak to him Once I have had this conversation/s then everyone in my family will be aware (mum and dad already supportive) then I will be ready to speak to GP about switching to a liquid mertazapine and starting the slow taper down to 0 I will stop there now as don't want to make it too much for people to read! Thanks for taking the time to read it Malbec 1 Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
sunnysideup69 Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 28 minutes ago, Malbec37 said: I am now coming towards 3 months stabilising on 15mg mertazapine and I am doing SO much better then in January when I came to the SA site...thanks to all especially @Gridleyand @sunnysideup69for the support that helped me to understand what was going on and what I needed to do next I definitely still have waves feelings...my tinnitus is still pretty constant and sleep not too good, especially in the early mornings when I am very restless and toss and turn in bed like a boat dragged around in the high seas! But once I am up and going then things seems to get better...I focus a lot on calming my CNS through the best possible whole food diet, yoga, walks in nature, gardening, listening to healing music....I really try to avoid sugar, have quit alcohol and almost quit caffeine (I still have one coffee first thing 7am which I cannot seem to let go of yet)..... Good to read your update, @Malbec37, and you're welcome. As we discussed, my sleep is similar....early morning dreaming/fidgeting still there for me. I also find that I'm better if I can get up and focus upon something, hence I've been popping in here whilst not at work....it gives me something to put my mind into. I also struggle with letting go of the morning cuppa! But mine's good, strong earl grey tea. Am currently reducing down to one brew in the morning and am 6 days off the sugar, determined to stick with it this time. It's no friend to my CNS stability, especially as I tend to keep crashing on and crashing off. What kind of yoga do you practise/ teach? I'm thinking of starting Hatha yoga, I've heard that would be very calming. Also done a couple of 'restorative' yoga classes, which were blissful! January 2008 to April 2015 Citalopram 20mg to 5mg, reducing in 50 per cent leaps. Jumped off at 5mg March 2016 used MDMA triggered setback April 2016 Citalopram 10mg October 2016 cut to 5mg, May 2017 cut to 2.5mg May 2018 used MDMA triggered setback June 2018 Citalopram 2.5mg up to 10mg, then back to 5mg July/ August 2018 7.5mg, then 10mg June 2019 updosed to 20mg Citalopram August 2019 cold switch to Venlafaxine 75mg XR Supplements; 1100mg fish oil daily; also 100mg Magnesium Glycinate. Tried Vagifem 10mcg from mid May 2021 to mid June 2021; caused depression, so stopped. Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted May 5, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted May 5, 2020 5 hours ago, Malbec37 said: switching to a liquid mertazapine This all sounds great, Malbec. I'm very happy you're doing so well. If you switch to liquid, we recommend a gradual crossover: 3/4 dose tablet, 1/4 dose liquid for 3 to 7 days 1/2 dose, tablet, 1/2 dose liquid for 3 to 7 days 1/4 dose tablet, 3/4 dose liquid for 3 to 7 days all liquid thereafter Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted May 14, 2020 Author Share Posted May 14, 2020 Hi all so here is an update on how I'm doing Overall I'm pretty stable and the waves are not so intense as before...but I am still struggling with sleep and it's starting to get me quite down - I fall asleep fine and stay asleep through the early hours but then I seem to wake around 4.30am and just crash around in bed in restless agitation for a couple of hours before getting up...I am really craving a restful period of rejuvenating sleep especially between 4.30 and 6.30am but it seems to escape me....I'm aware that there is probably nothing that can help and it's just the healing process of WD and I do accept how long and tough this journey is...but I just wondered if anyone else has this same problem? It's a lot better than it was in acute WD when I was only sleeping 2-3 hours a night but this current sleep pattern seems quite entrenched now Aside from this I am still working 40 hours over 4 days as a mental health support worker which is often very intense so I am looking for a new job that is a bit softer and easier...bit it may take some time with coronavirus situation On my days off I do a lot of gardening at my allotment that always lifts my spirits Thanks and love and strength to you all Malbec Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted May 17, 2020 Author Share Posted May 17, 2020 @gridley....hope all is well in Ecuador. I wanted to ask about starting my next taper from 15mg to 0 mertazapine whilst in windows and waves. I am still in windows and waves but the waves are no way as bad as what they used to be as I am getting more stable after 3 months holding at 15mg...but they still do happen so my question is is it advisable to start tapering when free of WD symptoms completely or just when the waves are more tolerable and less acute? I know ultimately it’s for me to decide just wondering what the community think Or if anyone else wants to offer their thoughts like @sunnysideup69, @Erellor @Altostrata Thanks!! Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted May 17, 2020 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted May 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Malbec37 said: I wanted to ask about starting my next taper from 15mg to 0 mertazapine A more realistic standard than being free of WD symptoms is the standard of WD normal. This means you feel more of less the same degree of blah every day. Another applicable standard is stabilization, which means feeling more of less the same every day without big swings in symptoms. It is great that you're doing better. Since you're still having noticeable waves and windows, I'd wait bit longer before tapering. Why don't you check in in about a month and let's see how you're doing then? Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
sunnysideup69 Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 @Malbec37, wait until the waves are as un-noticeable as possible. Basically, I'm with Gridley, above. Hold a little bit longer, I reckon, don't be in a rush. Better to take your time than to risk swinging around from one extreme to another again. You're always gonna have some symptoms, but I'd get them as slight as possible before tapering. January 2008 to April 2015 Citalopram 20mg to 5mg, reducing in 50 per cent leaps. Jumped off at 5mg March 2016 used MDMA triggered setback April 2016 Citalopram 10mg October 2016 cut to 5mg, May 2017 cut to 2.5mg May 2018 used MDMA triggered setback June 2018 Citalopram 2.5mg up to 10mg, then back to 5mg July/ August 2018 7.5mg, then 10mg June 2019 updosed to 20mg Citalopram August 2019 cold switch to Venlafaxine 75mg XR Supplements; 1100mg fish oil daily; also 100mg Magnesium Glycinate. Tried Vagifem 10mcg from mid May 2021 to mid June 2021; caused depression, so stopped. Link to comment
Artistic1 Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 On 5/14/2020 at 1:08 AM, Malbec37 said: I seem to wake around 4.30am and just crash around in bed in restless agitation for a couple of hours before getting up...I am really craving a restful period of rejuvenating sleep especially between 4.30 and 6.30am but it seems to escape me.... Hi, Malbec37. I have had this sleep pattern, too....waking up between 3-4:30. I have more sleep help books than you can imagine, and almost all of them say if you wake early and can't go back to sleep, you should get up and do some quiet activity, like reading. Nothing with a screen, like ipad, iphone, TV or computer. I tried it, and it was hard, but I actually felt better mentally, even though I was tired. It reduces the anxiety about your bed being a place where you can't sleep. Eventually, things settled down. Good luck! On 5/14/2020 at 1:08 AM, Malbec37 said: Celexa - 20 mg May 2015 - March 2016 (Felt quite good)..... Celexa taper from May 2016 - Nov 2016.....Completely off by Nov. 2016. Depression and Anxiety returned June 2017 July, 2017: Zoloft = 25 mg; Aug. 2017 = 37.5 mg; Nov. 2017 = 50 mg thru Jan. 23, 2018. Jan. 2018 - May 6, 2019 = taper Zoloft from 50 mg to 12.5 mg. Aug. 11, 2019 - felt so bad that I reinstated at 25mg. Hold at this dose until Feb. 3, 2020 Feb. 4, 2020 = reduce dose to 21.875 mg. Hold for 10 weeks. April 14, 2020 = 18.75 mg. Hold for 10 weeks. June10, 2020 - start cycle of 2 weeks to taper slowly from old dose to new dose, then hold at new dose for 6 weeks. June 23, 2020 = 16.66 mg.........August 26, 2020 = 14.75 mg ....... October 28, 2020 = 13.15 mg 2021: Jan. 1 = 11.85 mg....Feb. 26 = 10.5 mg....April 23 = 9.3 mg....June 12 = 8.33 mg.... Aug. 7 = 7.05 mg.....Oct. 9 = 6.08 mg.....Dec. 4 = 5.12 mg......Jan. 21, 2022 = 4.16mg.....Mar. 26 = 3.20mg......May 7 = 1.92mg....June 11 = 1.6mg.....July 23= 1.28 mg.....Aug. 13 = 0.96 mg.....Sept. 1 =O mg. Link to comment
Malbec37 Posted May 21, 2020 Author Share Posted May 21, 2020 On 5/17/2020 at 3:51 PM, Gridley said: It is great that you're doing better. Since you're still having noticeable waves and windows, I'd wait bit longer before tapering. Why don't you check in in about a month and let's see how you're doing then? Hi @Gridleyyes that's a good idea I'll come back in another month...I'm not yet ready to taper, I have to switch to liquid first and potentially find a new less stressful job first and get settled there...maybe August/September will be a good time potentially. Not in a great rush as have accepted tapering is going to take a long time and I just want to do this once and once only On 5/17/2020 at 4:08 PM, sunnysideup69 said: @Malbec37, wait until the waves are as un-noticeable as possible. Basically, I'm with Gridley, above. Hold a little bit longer, I reckon, don't be in a rush. Better to take your time than to risk swinging around from one extreme to another again. You're always gonna have some symptoms, but I'd get them as slight as possible before tapering. Thanks @sunnysideup69yep I agree there will always be some symptoms and I will hold a bit longer...I don't want the extremes of windows and waves On 5/17/2020 at 4:57 PM, Artistic1 said: Hi, Malbec37. I have had this sleep pattern, too....waking up between 3-4:30. I have more sleep help books than you can imagine, and almost all of them say if you wake early and can't go back to sleep, you should get up and do some quiet activity, like reading. Nothing with a screen, like ipad, iphone, TV or computer. I tried it, and it was hard, but I actually felt better mentally, even though I was tired. It reduces the anxiety about your bed being a place where you can't sleep. Eventually, things settled down. Good luck! Thanks @Artistic1for the info....my sleep has actually improved recently as I mentioned the early morning restlessness on a mirtazapine FB withdrawal group and someone suggested it was 'cortisol spikes' happening and that a way to improve would be to do a pretty high dose of Vit C before going to bed and it has helped a lot so the mornings are now more restful and less agitated! So happy days I have finally got around to emailing my psychiatrist big brother to tell him what I'm doing (awaiting response) but I'm pleased as it's a big weight of my mind to finally have the truth out there about withdrawal and to be owning my recovery from psych drugs Thanks all for responding and great to have your support and input Have a fine day wherever you are x 1 Malbec37 Introduction: Diagnosis of Recurrent Depressive Disorder 2005 Sertraline 2003 - 2004 then switched to Citalopram 2004 - 2014 20mg then up to 40mg then switched to Mirtazapine 30mg 2014 - 2020 Began taper off Mirtazapine Aug 2019 - 2 months at 22.5mg, 3 months at 15mg, 10 days at 11.25mg then updosed to 13mg after constant WD...40 days on 13 and then updose to 15 as of 13/2/20...holding for now and stabilised. Resumed taper from 15mg in July 2021 - 14mg in July 21, 13mg in August 21, 12mg in Sept 21 and 11 mg in Nov 21, made it down to 9mg in Mar 22 but crashed and reinstated to 15mg Apr 22 Currently holding on 15mg Link to comment
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