Sleepan: amitriptyline cold turkey - 4th week reinstatement in peril as I started cardiac coherence

[Sleepan]

18 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

You've pretty much nailed the choices you have. I would suggest reading through this:

 

 

Thank you so much Brassmokey for your answer.  I already read the answer by @ChessieCat giving a name to reaching tolerance where Amitriptyline is not working anymore causing total insomnia:  Tachyphylaxis, Reaching tolerance or "Poop-Out",

 

It does give me hope, because I took an afternoon nap, and felt a sudden great despair that maybe I would never sleep again, but reading @ChessieCat  show me the body should start to heal.  I'm eating very very healthy right now (vegan).  I'll try cardiac coherence and yoga, because I really do not want another medication to sleep.  I'm scared of medications for ever.

 

I'll to and read the next two articles you shared in your post to me. 

 

I calculated it will take me 2 yrs & few months by tapering 10% every 25th.

 

Could it be in 4 weeks instead, i.e. August 22 next time?

 

Since Amitriptyline is not helping me at all to sleep, COULD I TAPER FASTER THAN 10% EVERY MONTH, i.e. every two weeks? 

 

 

[Sleepan]

6 hours ago, wantrelief said:

Hi Sleepan,

 

I am really sorry to hear you are in the position you are and aren't sleeping at all.....that sounds brutal.

 

I also found myself in a position where one of the drugs I am on, citalopram, stopped working in 2019.  I was experiencing some work related stress and spiraled into a deep depression that I thought was probably caused by the drug but I wasn't completely sure.  After updosing (which didn't help at all) and holding for quite awhile, I decided the best course of action would be to start slowly tapering down.  It was terrifying to me to start a taper feeling so awful but I did and it took quite awhile but I eventually started to feel better (although I am still tapering and have my ups and downs - I still feel much better than I did back in 2019).  So my hope is that this will be the case for you, that at some point in time you will feel better and your sleep will slowly improve as you taper off the drug that is causing the problem.

 

Wishing you all the best,

WR

 

Thank you so much @wantrelief .  Reading your answer as I just awoke from a nap, not sleeping where I suddenly found myself into great despair, picked me up just in time.  It does give me hope again that eventually I will sleep again. I believe the body by itself wants to heal, so I'll try to support it the best I can.  I do not want another medication.  I would like to taper more rapidly than 10% every 4 weeks (not every month - trying to gain make it shorter), like every 2 weeks, but I guess I'd better not, yes?

 

I would just like to know if you suffered also insomnia or was it only deep depression, not demeaning deep depression as less bad than insomnia at all. But it seem insomnia can lead to deep depression, and also fact Amitriptyline is an anti-depressant not working anymore, I can expect I will have to fight deep depression as well, yes?

 

Thank you again so much for your answer. It gives me strength to fight it.

[Altostrata]

What changes did you make in the week before May 15?

 

Are you using liquid amitriptyline to taper? How old is your liquid?

[Sleepan]

1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

What changes did you make in the week before May 15?

 

Are you using liquid amitriptyline to taper? How old is your liquid?

Thank you so much for your question @Altostrata

 

I am not using liquid amitriptyline, but titration, and I'm sure there's no mistake there. My husband do the titration and is very efficient at it. I trust him totally. I made no tapering at all since I stabilized last year. I never felt ready. 

 

But something occurred before May 15. I had an Irritable Bowel Disease attack and I thought it was due to a smoothie with a walnuts (nuts allergy), so I stopped eating, drinking only water until it calmed down.  I also applied green clay poultice on my belly.  After 5 days, I started eating, but the pain came back so went back doing it for a week until he was totally gone.  Of course, when fasting one stopped sleeping, so I did not worry about it.  But I was able to sleep again.

 

I had another attack few weeks later, but fasting fixed it within 3 days.  Then again just before May 15.  it was ok within 2 days.  Since then, I never had IBD again.  Each time, I helped healing with green clay poultice on my belly.  But insomnia persisted since then. I still did not worried too much.  My digestion is great.    

 

Before May 15, I tried deep cleansing foot pads for two nights, when I was still sleeping. I did not like the feeling, so I stopped.  It is probably not linked to my issue.

 

I'm vegan since November 9.  With other vegans, I'm active on social media to tell people how meat and milk products is the cause of great cruelty to animals. My husband is afraid that it makes me too sad to read and view all the cruelty to animals. Maybe he's right. 

 

Maybe my body is getting to be so healthy (I had allergy on my hands that is gone), that it is opposing now the medication? 

 

I do not want another medication or substitution if possible.  I calculated to taper 10% every 4 weeks 20mg pm I was taking.  Now it is 18mg since Sunday 25. This afternoon, after my nap, I had a strong deep depression, despair, that hit me. However, @brassmonkey and @ChessieCat answers gave me back my hope that it will get better eventually.

 

I would like to taper faster every 2 weeks instead of every 4 weeks, but I guess this is a big no-no, yes?

 

Thank you a million times @Altostrata for your kindness.

 

 

 

[Sleepan]

On 7/25/2021 at 10:28 PM, brassmonkey said:

You've pretty much nailed the choices you have. I would suggest reading through this:

 

 

 

Hi again @brassmonkey copy @Altostrata

 

I replied in my previous message that I did not want another medication or substitution to Amitriptyline I started to taper last Sunday 25th pm. 

 

I thought the wave could not be worst, but it is: strong anxiety & panic.  

 

Not sleeping at all since 2 months 1/2 could be dangerous.  Maybe I might need a medication to make my sleep as I'm tapering slowly Amitriptyline. 

 

Amitriptyline is tricyclic antidepressant half-life duration of 20 hours, which is more violent than long-life to taper.

 

I found a table where I found 3 medications I can take WHILE I'm tapering Amitriptyline and NOT AFTER I ended Amitriptyline.

 Guidelines-switching-antidepressants_A3.pdf (nps.org.au)

 

I noted three choices:

1) fluvoxamine at 50 mg

2) vortioxetine at 5 mg

3) agomelatine 

 

Do you think I should call the doctor that renewed my medication last time?

 

thank you.

 

 

 

 

[wantrelief]

18 hours ago, Sleepan said:

I would just like to know if you suffered also insomnia or was it only deep depression, not demeaning deep depression as less bad than insomnia at all. But it seem insomnia can lead to deep depression, and also fact Amitriptyline is an anti-depressant not working anymore, I can expect I will have to fight deep depression as well, yes?

 

Thank you again so much for your answer. It gives me strength to fight it.

I am so glad I could be of some help to you, Sleepan.  I realized I said my medication stopped working in 2019 but it was 2017 - how time flies!

 

I did have insomnia and still don't sleep as much as I would like to at times but have learned to accept what sleep I get is good enough.  When I was in the thick of things, I would always wake up quite early in the morning even if I went to bed later. However it wasn't just waking up early, it was how I felt when I woke up....it is hard to even remember now so it is difficult to describe the feeling but it was a mixture of anxiety and depression as well as the terrible realization I was not feeling right in my body or mind.

 

18 hours ago, Sleepan said:

I would like to taper more rapidly than 10% every 4 weeks (not every month - trying to gain make it shorter), like every 2 weeks, but I guess I'd better not, yes?

I think you answered your own question - I would not taper any more rapidly than what is recommended.

 

18 hours ago, Sleepan said:

But it seem insomnia can lead to deep depression, and also fact Amitriptyline is an anti-depressant not working anymore, I can expect I will have to fight deep depression as well, yes?

I can understand your thinking but there is no reason to think you are going to get depression or any other symptom if amitriptyline is not working anymore.  Unfortunately we have to go through the process of eliminating the problem and we may get certain symptoms but we may not as well....we just have to see how it plays out for us as individuals as we are all different.

 

You are going to be ok, Sleepan.  I know it doesn't feel like it now but you will.....your sleep will come back in time.  There are many stories on here of people who also had severe sleep issues and they did eventually resolve so hang in there....this all will change in time.

[brassmonkey]

Tapering by 10% every four weeks is the fastest that we recommend. Many of our members still find that too fast and use a smaller percentage. These drugs work by making physical changes to the body that require the presence of the drug. If we remove the drug too fast the body can't keep up with undoing those changes and gets very confused. This causes the symptoms we experience. From experience we have found that going slower is actually the fastest way to taper. The time frame can be disheartening, but if done right you should feel improvements along the way and hardly even notice when you make the jump to "0".

 

I would avoid adding any more drugs.  The ones you list are all quite addicting and will need to be tapered carefully if you want to stop taking them. All in all they will just add a lot of trouble. Many of our members have good luck with melatonin, a small amount goes a long ways.

Edited July 27, 2021 by brassmonkey

[Altostrata]

I would not continue to taper as long as you have insomnia, tapering probably would make this worse.

 

It appears your insomnia may have sources other than the drug. As you mentioned, it may be due to gut problems. 

 

If your gut is injured, you may have developed a sensitivity to some food you eat regularly, such as fermented foods. See

 

Elimination or exclusion diets for reactions to food (food intolerance)

 

Histamine intolerance

 

If you have become a vegan, you would need to take vitamin B12 supplements, as this essential vitamin, which greatly affects the nervous system, is found only in foods derived from animals. See 

 

 

If you are a middle-aged person or older, 6 months of being vegan can deplete your vitamin B12 to an extent that you might have subclinical B12 deficiency.

 

We would not advise switching to another antidepressant. There are many guides for this because doctors love to switch people from one drug to another, but it is not a good way to go off the drugs.

[Yersinia]

4 hours ago, wantrelief said:

I did have insomnia and still don't sleep as much as I would like to at times but have learned to accept what sleep I get is good enough.  When I was in the thick of things, I would always wake up quite early in the morning even if I went to bed later. However it wasn't just waking up early, it was how I felt when I woke up....it is hard to even remember now so it is difficult to describe the feeling but it was a mixture of anxiety and depression as well as the terrible realization I was not feeling right in my body or mind.

@wantrelief Thank you so much for writing this.  It describes how I feel when I wake up.  It's so reassuring to know others feel/felt this way.  Also, I'm going to try to follow your lead in accepting that however much sleep I get is good enough.  Since I started on this W/D journey, I've been agonizing over not getting enough sleep.  Before I reinstated, it was *awful* (2 hours if lucky) but for the last two days I've gotten a bit more.  I will try to accept that it is good enough.  Otherwise, I just pile more anxiety on top of the mountain I already have.  

[Sleepan]

16 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I would not continue to taper as long as you have insomnia, tapering probably would make this worse.

 

It appears your insomnia may have sources other than the drug. As you mentioned, it may be due to gut problems. 

 

If your gut is injured, you may have developed a sensitivity to some food you eat regularly, such as fermented foods. See

 

Elimination or exclusion diets for reactions to food (food intolerance)

 

Histamine intolerance

 

If you have become a vegan, you would need to take vitamin B12 supplements, as this essential vitamin, which greatly affects the nervous system, is found only in foods derived from animals. See 

 

 

If you are a middle-aged person or older, 6 months of being vegan can deplete your vitamin B12 to an extent that you might have subclinical B12 deficiency.

 

We would not advise switching to another antidepressant. There are many guides for this because doctors love to switch people from one drug to another, but it is not a good way to go off the drugs.

 

Dear @Altostrata copy @brassmonkey  I'm certain now you are 100% correct:  my insomnia is due to gut problems.

 

                (P.S. I slept last night after a great calm came over me last evening. I explain at the end of my answer).

 

I had intense 1st IBD crisis February 15. A smaller 2nd around March 15 & short one around April 15. Followed by total insomnia started on May 15.  Since guts and brain work together, it is not surprising. When I cold turkey October '19, I had 1 month of liquid diarrhea followed by 1 month of insomnia.

 

In Simple Elimination Diet document from UCCS which I read attentively and am keeping, I found those culprits I consumed until now & am ELIMINATING for now:

 

1)       SUGAR ELIMINATED. I drink sugared orange drink and strawberry lemonade. I have a glass of WATER near me.

2)      WHEAT ELIMINATED. If I make a cake, I'll go with buckwheat flour.

3)      SOY ELIMINATED. I love buckwheat whole grain, lentils and peas which will be fine.

4)      WHITE RICE REDUCED.  I loved my old age Basmati, but will go back to BROWN RICE.

 

My B12 was found a little low in March 2020 (start of COVID). I'll make sure I take B12, vitamins C & D, magnesium chelated, Lion’s Mane, and I'm adding BERBERINE.

 

I SLEPT LAST NIGHT. No dreams. I feel rested & positive.  Yesterday I was depressed, anxious, panic, crying spell, full of fear. Then, in the afternoon, after argumenting with someone on social media (I won the argument - smile), I rested until 7pm and I fell a GREAT CALM.  No more BRAINSTORM in my head.  I took my 18mg dosage. It took time, but with concentrating on my breathing with a prayer, I SLEPT. 

 

I'm confident with ELIMINATING the 4 foods above, it will help me in my next 27 tapers left to get to 0 amitriptyline, without requesting a 2nd medication.

  

Can I reduce EVERY FOUR WEEKS, instead of every month? 

 

If it goes very well, would it be possible to do it EVERY TWO WEEKS eventually?

 

 

Thank you so much Altostrata.  You're truly my savior.  I would not have thought about those foods as causing my insomnia.  My confidence is back that I’ll go through this.

 

May God showers you with blessings for eternity for all the good you do in this Forum. You're an angel.

 

Sleepan

[Sleepan]

20 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Tapering by 10% every four weeks is the fastest that we recommend. Many of our members still find that too fast and use a smaller percentage. These drugs work by making physical changes to the body that require the presence of the drug. If we remove the drug too fast the body can't keep up with undoing those changes and gets very confused. This causes the symptoms we experience. From experience we have found that going slower is actually the fastest way to taper. The time frame can be disheartening, but if done right you should feel improvements along the way and hardly even notice when you make the jump to "0".

 

I would avoid adding any more drugs.  The ones you list are all quite addicting and will need to be tapered carefully if you want to stop taking them. All in all they will just add a lot of trouble. Many of our members have good luck with melatonin, a small amount goes a long ways.

Thank you @brassmonkey copy @Altostrata 

 

I found your answer, after I answered @Altostrata which you got a copy who told me my issue was guts related, and I'm certain it is the issue absolutely.  I asked again if I could reduce to two weeks, so I got my answer now:  I can only reduce EVERY FOUR WEEKS 10%. I have 28 tapers left which is reasonable if I reminded myself I was stupid enough to take this stupid pill since 1989, without questioning it. 

 

It means about TWO YEARS if every four weeks work well for me.  I'm confident with eliminating four more bad foods, I'll be fine.  It should be easy for me, as I already eliminated meat and milk products since november 2020. 

 

The moderators in this Forum are truly amazing, and you are very precious, because it is still difficult to have such a good help in those matters.

 

I love you all, a lot. For ever grateful.  

 

 

[Altostrata]

You're welcome.

 

I would allow your nervous system to settle down on the new diet before attempting to taper again. We cannot forecast how fast you can go. I'd try the 10% taper for a while until you find out how it works for you.

[Sleepan]

14 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You're welcome.

 

I would allow your nervous system to settle down on the new diet before attempting to taper again. We cannot forecast how fast you can go. I'd try the 10% taper for a while until you find out how it works for you.

 

Hi @Altostrata

 

I did not sleep last night, like the night before, even if I eliminated the four allergens in my particular case (sugar, wheat, soy & white rice) but no doubt it could take 7 to 21 days to make an impact if they are the main cause on my insomnia, so I'll be patient. I'll write down my progress in my diary.

 

I understand that I will not be able to taper on August 22nd if my nervous system has not settled down (i.e. brainstorm, zap, anxiety). I guess it is time for me to meditate and do breathing exercice and some yoga for beginners.

 

Thank you again.  

[wantrelief]

On 7/28/2021 at 8:21 AM, Sleepan said:

I was stupid enough to take this stupid pill since 1989, without questioning it. 

Please don't blame yourself for taking medication that was prescribed to you.  You were and are not stupid. It is not your fault, you were just trying to help yourself at the time. It is your prescriber(s) responsibility to discuss the ramifications of starting it as well as continuing it.  I blame myself too and am working on not doing that so I know it isn't easy but I believe we must try to  have self-compassion and let go of the blaming ourselves.  I am not saying this as eloquently as I would like but I hope you understand what I am saying. 💗

[Sleepan]

23 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You're welcome.

 

I would allow your nervous system to settle down on the new diet before attempting to taper again. We cannot forecast how fast you can go. I'd try the 10% taper for a while until you find out how it works for you.

@Altostrata  I already get positive effects from suppressing those 4 allergens: sugar, wheat, soy, white rice.  I lost one pound. 130 to 129lbs. I'm 5' with big bones, so I can go down easily to 115lbs.  I have some wave of depression and anxiety bc the withdrawal, but I feel more peace right now. And my digestive is even better of course. I always wanted to stop soft drink with sugar but lacked the motivation. Water suddenly tastes very good. Thank you. 

[Sleepan]

3 hours ago, wantrelief said:

Please don't blame yourself for taking medication that was prescribed to you.  You were and are not stupid. It is not your fault, you were just trying to help yourself at the time. It is your prescriber(s) responsibility to discuss the ramifications of starting it as well as continuing it.  I blame myself too and am working on not doing that so I know it isn't easy but I believe we must try to  have self-compassion and let go of the blaming ourselves.  I am not saying this as eloquently as I would like but I hope you understand what I am saying. 💗

@wantrelief 

Maybe, I have to accept some responsibility though. I discovered it yesterday after reading an answer from altostrata.

 

I took this medication because I did not want to change what I was doing, i.e. working 2 jobs, so I had one week insomnia. So I went to see my doc, and I got this pill, which was renewed by him and others throughout the years as take it as you wish, it's a small dosage, no hard.  Medicine is wonderful when one has a critical emergency, but we are better learn to eat better to prevent illness. We can't prevent accidents, but we can't prevent all those bad stuff we accumulated in our bodies, overtaxing our capacities to clean ourselves. 

 

Yesterday, @altostrata shared to me a file on allergens that can cause my insomnia or resistance to Amitriptyline.  Since I'm vegan, I was not eating most on the list except four of them: SUGAR, WHEAT (gluten), SOY (tofu), WHITE RICE.  I was drinking soft drinks. Always love them. But now, I'm so motivated, I don't care and the water taste great and already I feel less zap since my 2mg tapering last Sunday. Sometimes, we have to make an effort to heal by ourself, and often it is by stopping what's not good for us. 

 

Maybe you already know this, but this is the file altostrata shared, and this is a simple way to help me out of this quagmire.  handout_elimination_diet_patient.pdf

 

What about you?  Are you still reducing your medication or it is over now?

 

[Sleepan]

I was down to 8.5mg on February 6th, 2022, when I started to feel less energy. I was then taking 2-100mg Magnesium am & pm & it was helping me to sleep.

 

Then on February 20th, I vomited brown and could not eat, drink, poo no more and I could not sleep either. On February 25th, being in distress, I called 911 and within the next day I had a surgery for a big stone in my gallblather made a hole out into my intestine blocking it. I was back home on March 1st but will be convalescing 3 months until I feel stronger.

 

But in the meantime, I've not slept since February 20th, except the last night at the hospital where they gave me Zopiclone 5mg which was very restful. It is an hypnotic. I have no prescription.

 

So now, I have a dilemna - how to stop my insomnia:  I raised Amitriptyline to 9.5mg which was my reduction from January '22, as I believed by withdrawal table was disrupted by this illness and surgery, rendering Amitriptyline unefficient as if I took none at all. 

 

Should I ask for a prescription to my family doctor - a new doctor I just found as my old doctor moved elsewhere - for Zopiclone 5mg to sleep as I continue my withdrawal of Amitriptyline until early next year in '23, and then I will withdraw from Zopiclone 5mg.  Does it make sense to you?  Is it my best option?

 

Again, thank you so much for your good advice that always helped me in the past. 

[Sleepan]

Please someone tell me how I can comment in my own profile, for updating my current situation?  I find it so confusing. 

[Sleepan]

Posted 1 hour ago

  On 5/1/2012 at 1:29 PM, Altostrata said:

Summary of our harm reduction approach to tapering

 

It's best to go slowly to find out how you tolerate a reduction. Once you damage your nervous system with withdrawal symptoms, it can take a very long time to feel good again.

 

But -- many people do fine with a faster taper. Are you one of them? You can't tell. We advocate a harm reduction approach to tapering:

 

 

• Initially, make a 10% reduction and hold there for a MONTH. It can take several weeks for withdrawal symptoms to emerge. Do that again the second month.
• If you have very minor or no symptoms from these 2 reductions, you can try reducing by 10% (calculated on the last dosage) every 3 weeks. Do that twice. If no problems, reduce by 10% every 2 weeks. Do that twice.
• If no problems after 4.5 months of very gradual reduction, you may be able to reduce by 10% every week.
• If significant withdrawal symptoms appear, make smaller cuts or go slower. Listen to your body.

Expand  

Hi,

 

I have significant withdrawal symptoms since I reduced under 5mg, especially chronic insomnia, nausea, tintinitus, etc.  I reduced by 10% every four weeks and I was not stabilized, but I was too ambitious.

 

Sep 17, 5.1mg

Oct 15, 4.6mg,

Nov 12, 4.1mg 

Dec 10, 3.7mg

 

Next would be January 7.  It is torture right now.  I take a sleep pill, such as Ambien 10mg or Zopiclone 7.5mg, four to six times a month, to give myself a break. What will be safer now?  Stop completely or go back to an higher dose?  This is so depressing.  I'm 74 years old.  I had an emergency surgery end of February 2022 for a stone that travelled into a small intestine, which caused me to have total insomnia until May '22 when I was taking 10mg. I started tapering in May '22. I'm depressed, feel hopeless. 

 

Thank you for anyone who is willing to take a minute and talk to me.

 

cc. @Shep

cc. @ChessieCat

cc. @brassmonkey

 cc. @Erell

cc. @Gridley

cc. @Rosetta

[Vasherr]

@Sleepan Hi, here is Your thread:

 

Add it to Your browser bookmarks for easy access, if You'll tell me Your browser I can show You how to do it if You don't know.

 

As for the tapering situation, I am not a mod but if You are symptomatic and unstable going further down is rarely a good idea, maybe try a longer hold period.

 

Wishing You a lifelong window!

V.

 

 

[Sleepan]

Thank you @Vasherr  I will not reduce then in mid-january as planned.  It would be more encouraging for me to just stay at 3.7mg.  But since I reduced from 6mg, I have not stabilized within 4 weeks.  I hope I can succeed by remaining at 3.7mg as long as it is needed.  How long could it take by doing this?  2, 3 months?  It's so scary. I'm afraid to never heal.  It is why I was wondering if going up to 4 or 5mg could give me a break?

 

As for my other question: So to start a new comment under my profile, I clicked on "start new topic" then?

 

 

[getofflex]

Previous post moved to your intro topic to keep your history all in one place.  Please post questions and discussion about your situation in this one thread, to avoid confusion and duplication of efforts.  Thank you.  

[getofflex]

2 hours ago, Sleepan said:

I reduced by 10% every four weeks and I was not stabilized, but I was too ambitious.

I would suggest that you listen to your body, and not do another reduction until you have been stabilized for at least 2 weeks, rather than go by the calendar.  There were many times I needed to wait 6 or 8 weeks when I was tapering off my Lexapro.  The symptoms are telling you that your brain is not yet stabilized, and it is a very good idea to hold on our current dose when we are experiencing symptoms.  Here is what we mean by stability: 

 

Stability

 

You can either stay on your current dose of 3.7 mg amitriptyline, or else do a partial updose to 3.9 mg to try to lessen your withdrawal symptoms.   It would probably do you a lot of good to do a nice long hold period, to allow your nervous system to rest, and get more fully adjusted to the tapering you have been doing.  By this, I mean several months, about 3 or 4 months, or even longer, however long it takes you to stabilize.

2 hours ago, Sleepan said:

Sep 17, 5.1mg

Oct 15, 4.6mg,

Nov 12, 4.1mg 

Dec 10, 3.7mg

 

Please update your drug signature with this information, and any other drug changes you have made in the recent past.  Thank you.  

Edited December 28, 2022 by getofflex

[Sleepan]

I'll do my best to do this correctly next time by using "start new topic" and I'll update my profile.  Thank you for your answer 

[brassmonkey]

From your signature it looks like you are tapering 10% every four weeks. That is the fastest rate that we recommend. It may be too fast for you. It looks like your symptoms are not having enough time to resolve before you taper again. I would suggest taking a two month hold and then start tapering more slowly.

 

I would highly recommend switching over to a Brassmonkey Slide. (2.5% a week for four weeks and a 2 week hold) We are having great success with it for reducing a person's symptom load while maintaining a faster pace of reductions.

[Sleepan]

@getofflex Thank you so much for your lenghty answer.  I'm very grateful and I agree that it is worth trying this way.  I'll probably go for a partial updose to 3.9mg or do you think to 4.0mg would be ok as well, since it is easier as I do a water tritation. 

 

I understand it is imperative that I find some stability for my brain to adjust.  I will give you an update. I'm very hopeful now.

 

I wish you the best for the coming year and may your wishes come true. 

[Sleepan]

Thank you @brassmonkey.   I'm interested indeed to try the Brassmonkey Slide (2.5% a week for four weeks and a 2 weeka hold) as a minimum of course, as long as my symptoms have reduced enough.  But before I'll wait as long as it takes to stabilize on 3.9mg (or 4mg if you all agree) which is a updose from my current 3.7mg where I'm struggling right now.  I really need to feel normal again and to get some decent sleep again.  I know you all have great experience and it gives me great hope I'll succeed.  Thank you very much.

[getofflex]

16 hours ago, Sleepan said:

I'll probably go for a partial updose to 3.9mg or do you think to 4.0mg would be ok as well, since it is easier as I do a water tritation.

Yes, I think it would be fine to go to 4.0. Please read this link about reinstating/updosing.  

 

About Reinstating and Stabilizing to Reduce Withdrawal Symptoms

 

I'm glad you are feeling more hopeful.  I'm in my 60's, and have been able to recover from Lexapro after being on it for 2 decades, so there is a lot of hope for you.  Most of the moderators on here are in our 60's and 70's and we have recovered from psych drugs.  The secret is to taper glacially slowly, even if it takes years.  Time and patience are the keys to this.  You've already accomplished a lot by going from 20 mg to 4.0 mg.  At the lower doses, where you are, it is even more important to go super slowly and carefully, making sure you reduce by no more than 10% of your current dose, so that the reduction becomes smaller and smaller.  

[getofflex]

Brass Monkey is one of our senior staff, and about your age.  Here is his success story: 

 

Tao of the Brass Monkey

[Sleepan]

Congratulations @getofflex for being drug free as of July 8.  I see in your Signature that you reduced Lexapro not at 0.0mg but 0.00mg.  I'm hoping to stop at 0.0mg but maybe I'll have to learn how to do those more micro reductions too. 

 

I modified my own Signature as I reduced Amitriptyline to 4mg as you suggested, and I took Melatonin sublingual 3mg. I was calmer and the night seemed shorter even if I don't think I slept yet and I was not expecting it anyhow. This morning I took Lion's Mane, and late afternoon Gingko Biloba to repair the damage. I will also take Omega fish oil at noon (even if I'm vegan) because this is what I already have and it is recommended, along with some Zinc, D3, B12, C.

 

I will read this today 

About Reinstating and Stabilizing to Reduce Withdrawal Symptoms

 

I will also read 

Tao of the Brass Monkey by @brassmonkey

 

I'm forever grateful for giving me hope I can do this, as I misunderstood that it was ok to reduce every 4 weeks, and not listening to my body is because I was hoping to finish reductions hopefully before 2024.  It will take a longer time, but at least I will not suffer as much doing it, as I did the last few months getting almost all symptoms all together at the same time, having a big storm in my brain. I was getting desperate. No more. 

 

I will help this Forum financially in the coming weeks. I'm not rich but I hope it will help to encourage you in your charitable work for people like me.  You are quite extraordinary people. The best.

 

Happy New Year to you both, and all moderators and members.

 

[Rosetta]

Hi.  I’m glad you got some help from getofflex.  Maybe I can provide a little moral support?  It is very tempting to set a date for being off the drug.  Once you have realized that these drugs are harmful, getting them out of one’s body becomes a goal.   It’s hard to accept that we want to error on the side of reducing “too little.”  The harm of these drugs can be, but is not always taking them in the first place, it’s taking them, allowing them to change our brains and then reducing them such that our brains start changing back — and our bodies cannot handle the change.  
 

Having taken ADs for decades, I do worry about what the consequences will be down the line, but we cannot worry about that when in the throes of WD.  Full disclosure: I never had to struggle with putting the pills in my mouth every day while tapering, because I did not “taper” for more than about 6 weeks or so (which, as it turns out, is not tapering as the term should be used with regard to anti-depressants.  But I could have stabilized and remained on the drug for 5 years or more and had a drastically better quality of life, if I had known better than to, essentially, CT.)

 

I may be projecting onto you what I would have felt if I had tapered for years, but a lot of people feel revulsion when taking ADs while tapering.  A better way to think of the pills, or fractions of pills, is as life rafts.  Little life rafts that allow the nervous system to float down the turbulent river of change in our brains.  We stay afloat, we survive, because we have these life rafts.  They keep us above the churning, dangerous waters when we hit the rapids.  It seems there are more rapids below the 10 mg point for some people.  Getting down to doses below the smallest dose produced by the pharmaceutical companies must be very frustrating.  

Supplements:

I noticed that you are using several different natural remedies such as Lion’s Mane, etc.  Any one of those could be exacerbating your nervous system troubles.  You cannot know which is doing so unless you take only one of them at a time.  Generally, it’s recommended to take fish oil and/or magnesium, and nothing else.  People on SA have experienced that they are less likely to cause problems.  (Forgive me if I have missed part of your thread wherein you recounted a problem with either one.)  Even so, taking only one of them at first is necessary.  Then you can add the other, and see how it goes.  Many people try all kinds of things and have fine results, but others are sensitive to magnesium or fish oil.  
 

As desperate as you may feel, I would like to suggest that you stop taking everything except the AD for a bit.  Then add a small amount of either fish oil or magnesium.  Then, if you don’t notice any ill effect, add the other one.  After that works out ok, you can try to add in something else if you like.  I didn’t try that.  I decided that it wasn’t worth the risk.  As for the magnesium, find one that is as pure as possible, not mixed with anything else — there are a lot of different concoctions out there, and there’s a thread about the subject to help people find a product that is pure enough, https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27815-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/#comment-11734

 

If you can, keep a log of how you feel after discontinuing the supplements and continue to do so as you add in one, then another of SA recommended supplements, etc.  This will help you decide when it is safe enough to increase the dose of a supplement it try the second one.

 

I hope you feel better soon, Rosetta

 

[Rosetta]

I’m sorry.  I wrote a response, but I lost it, and I can’t write it again right now.  I’m thinking of you.  I’m so sorry that you are struggling.  Ambien and Zopiclone can intensify WD.  If you take them, take a fraction of the dose recommended by the physician.  
 

Oh, I posted it on your thread.  It’s not lost! 

[manymoretodays]

@Sleepan

I got all the remaining posts moved from the Why taper by 10% topic to here now.

This is your spot, your Introduction, to post, when you would like assistance around your specific case.

No need to start a new topic.

And good, good.......looks like you've gotten multiple inputs now.

 

Be well. 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[brassmonkey]

Flax seed oil is a good vegan alternative to fish oil.

 

I would be very careful with the Lion's Mane; it is one of the supplements we do not recommend. Do a site search (upper right corner of the screen) there is a lot of discussion on the subject.

 

A small updose to 4.0 shouldn't be a problem.

[Sleepan]

3 hours ago, Rosetta said:

Supplements:

I noticed that you are using several different natural remedies such as Lion’s Mane, etc.  Any one of those could be exacerbating your nervous system troubles.  You cannot know which is doing so unless you take only one of them at a time.  Generally, it’s recommended to take fish oil and/or magnesium, and nothing else.  People on SA have experienced that they are less likely to cause problems.  (Forgive me if I have missed part of your thread wherein you recounted a problem with either one.)  Even so, taking only one of them at first is necessary.  Then you can add the other, and see how it goes.  Many people try all kinds of things and have fine results, but others are sensitive to magnesium or fish oil.  
 

As desperate as you may feel, I would like to suggest that you stop taking everything except the AD for a bit.  Then add a small amount of either fish oil or magnesium.  Then, if you don’t notice any ill effect, add the other one.  After that works out ok, you can try to add in something else if you like.  I didn’t try that.  I decided that it wasn’t worth the risk.  As for the magnesium, find one that is as pure as possible, not mixed with anything else — there are a lot of different concoctions out there, and there’s a thread about the subject to help people find a product that is pure enough, https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/27815-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/#comment-11734

 

If you can, keep a log of how you feel after discontinuing the supplements and continue to do so as you add in one, then another of SA recommended supplements, etc.  This will help you decide when it is safe enough to increase the dose of a supplement it try the second one.

 

I hope you feel better soon, Rosetta

 

It's so nice to read you @Rosetta.  I think your advice makes a lot of good sense. I will stop all supplements for a little while, to rest my brain, and then add one and see what it does, just as you kindly recommended me.  I thank you very much, sweet Rosetta for all your kind words.  I wish I had visited more the Forum in the last year, but for some unknown reason, I had difficulty to post something new on my profile page.  But now I'm keeping the page where I can start a topic, so it will not be a problem again.  Many times, I had questions but I just did not know how where and how to post it, I'm ashamed to say. 

 

I wish you the best for the new year and I'm very happy I found you again, Sleepan.

[Sleepan]

I hope you got my reply as well, dear @Rosetta.  I will now correct my Signature to show I'm not taking any supplements right now.  Thank you so much. You're an angel.