BonesMoses: off Lexapro for almost 4 years, still can't sleep

[BonesMoses]

Hi everyone,

 

Somewhere around 2012, I was put on Lexapro to try and address life-long issues of social anxiety, and newly emerging issues with GAD, including panic attacks. About four years later in mid 2016, I was starting to have more issues with panic attacks again, and decided I'd rather get off the meds than up the dose. So I spoke with my psychiatrist and started tapering. Now, I never heard of the slow taper recommended here, but I had heard that withdrawal could be brutal. So I decided to cut it by 25% every two weeks, putting me at 0 after about 8 weeks.

 

I imagine that provoked a cringe from half of the audience, but... I felt fine. No brain zaps, akathisia, ataxia, or any of the other scary things I read about. My anxiety was a bit higher, but I expected that. I figured that was the end of it, and I could move on.

 

The weeks went on, but my anxiety kept increasing, so I adopted meditation to address it. It wasn't easy, but it was better  than nothing. Regardless, I was starting to have panic attacks almost every other day. I figured I could just fight my way through them and they'd eventually go away. Then I had some kind of super panic attack that pulled me out of sleep and racing to the ER. Pretty much ever since that night, my sleep has been an absolute disaster.

 

Back then, I could barely get 3-4 hours a night if I was lucky. Nothing seemed to work either. Supplements? Name one, none worked. OTC sleep aids like Benadryl or Unisom? Paradoxical responder to all of them. Prescription antihistamines like hydroxyzine? Even worse, and somehow made me completely sleepless for the entire half-life. Benzos? Used sparingly, they are/were a relief, but I didn't want to get addicted, so never more than once or twice per week. Z-drugs? Helped slightly falling asleep, but that wasn't my problem. I had developed intractable and aggressive sleep maintenance insomnia. I also started having problems with chronic pain and spasms along my surface muscles mostly in my lower extremities, but also around my chest.

 

All of that has persisted since then, but by far the most disruptive is the insomnia. I've managed to get back up to 5-6 hours according to my Fitbit Alta HR, but I still feel exhausted most of the time. And too often, I won't sleep at all and will end up reading in another room to avoid screwing up my sleep hygiene. At this point, I've gotten that to a science: pink noise, blue blockers 2 hours before bed, 300mcg melatonin 1 hour before bed, bedroom only used for sleeping, no TV or electronic devices late at night, etc. I did CBTI with a sleep psychologist, and he said I was doing everything right.

 

But of course that won't undo neurological damage, nor will it prevent me from waking up at 4:30 AM to use the bathroom, and being unable to fall back asleep afterwards. This has taken a huge toll on my QOL, and I wish I never even heard of SSRIs. I'm not suicidal, but my sense of humor on the subject has gotten considerably darker.

 

I used to be the kind of person who would sleep through an air-raid siren. It always took me longer to fall asleep than most (30+ minutes), but I slept like the dead. Now it feels like I wake up at the slightest provocation, and if my Fitbit is at all accurate, my slow-wave deep sleep is about half what it should be for someone my age.

 

I briefly considered going back on Lexapro, if even just for some relief, but then I remembered it put me here in the first place, and I wouldn't give it to my worst enemy. Then I read that might not work anyway. I can't go back in time and slap the prescription out of my hand, or explain to myself about implementing a much slower taper, so I feel like I'm basically SOL. It's been almost four years, and I'm still fighting this. I've even begun watching for research that we finally discover how to manually trigger various sleep phases, and stumbled across the recent studies on the VLPO region of the brain. I'm desperate and poking at anything I can find. 

 

I'm just so tired.

[Gridley]

Welcome to SA, BonesMoses.  I'm sorry you're having this terrible insomnia.  Insomnia is perhaps the most common withdrawal symptom.  Your other symptoms, such as muscle spasms, are also typical.

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

 

Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list.

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.  

 

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

You're right about the fact that going back on Lexapro might not work and could make things worse.  There's a saying, you can never step in the same river twice, and your central nervous system is not the same CNS it was before you did your fast taper of Lexapro.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system.  If you haven't already tried them, they would be worth a try.  Magnesium glycerinate is a good form of magnesium.

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

Here are a few links on dealing with insomnia on the off-chance that you haven't tried these techniques.

 

Tips to help sleep - so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Relaxation exercises, guided meditations, calming videos, sleep hypnosis

 

This link contains helpful information, including insomnia and also non-drug coping skills.  

 

Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here.

Edited January 24, 2020 by manymoretodays
removed white space

[BonesMoses]

 

4 hours ago, Gridley said:

You're right about the fact that going back on Lexapro might not work and could make things worse.  There's a saying, you can never step in the same river twice, and your central nervous system is not the same CNS it was before you did your fast taper of Lexapro.

 

Yeah, but you know how desperation works.

 

4 hours ago, Gridley said:

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system.  If you haven't already tried them, they would be worth a try.  Magnesium glycerinate is a good form of magnesium.

 

Yeah. I take about 400mg of magnesium glycinate daily when I remember, and I have several bottles of high quality fish oil (Labdoor tested) and take 3G every day.

 

4 hours ago, Gridley said:

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here.

 

 

Thanks. I've been looking around the last couple days and learning a lot about what I didn't know already.

 

[lobster]

On 1/22/2020 at 6:44 PM, BonesMoses said:

Hi everyone,

 

Somewhere around 2012, I was put on Lexapro to try and address life-long issues of social anxiety, and newly emerging issues with GAD, including panic attacks. About four years later in mid 2016, I was starting to have more issues with panic attacks again, and decided I'd rather get off the meds than up the dose. So I spoke with my psychiatrist and started tapering. Now, I never heard of the slow taper recommended here, but I had heard that withdrawal could be brutal. So I decided to cut it by 25% every two weeks, putting me at 0 after about 8 weeks.

 

I imagine that provoked a cringe from half of the audience, but... I felt fine. No brain zaps, akathisia, ataxia, or any of the other scary things I read about. My anxiety was a bit higher, but I expected that. I figured that was the end of it, and I could move on.

 

The weeks went on, but my anxiety kept increasing, so I adopted meditation to address it. It wasn't easy, but it was better  than nothing. Regardless, I was starting to have panic attacks almost every other day. I figured I could just fight my way through them and they'd eventually go away. Then I had some kind of super panic attack that pulled me out of sleep and racing to the ER. Pretty much ever since that night, my sleep has been an absolute disaster.

 

Back then, I could barely get 3-4 hours a night if I was lucky. Nothing seemed to work either. Supplements? Name one, none worked. OTC sleep aids like Benadryl or Unisom? Paradoxical responder to all of them. Prescription antihistamines like hydroxyzine? Even worse, and somehow made me completely sleepless for the entire half-life. Benzos? Used sparingly, they are/were a relief, but I didn't want to get addicted, so never more than once or twice per week. Z-drugs? Helped slightly falling asleep, but that wasn't my problem. I had developed intractable and aggressive sleep maintenance insomnia. I also started having problems with chronic pain and spasms along my surface muscles mostly in my lower extremities, but also around my chest.

 

All of that has persisted since then, but by far the most disruptive is the insomnia. I've managed to get back up to 5-6 hours according to my Fitbit Alta HR, but I still feel exhausted most of the time. And too often, I won't sleep at all and will end up reading in another room to avoid screwing up my sleep hygiene. At this point, I've gotten that to a science: pink noise, blue blockers 2 hours before bed, 300mcg melatonin 1 hour before bed, bedroom only used for sleeping, no TV or electronic devices late at night, etc. I did CBTI with a sleep psychologist, and he said I was doing everything right.

 

But of course that won't undo neurological damage, nor will it prevent me from waking up at 4:30 AM to use the bathroom, and being unable to fall back asleep afterwards. This has taken a huge toll on my QOL, and I wish I never even heard of SSRIs. I'm not suicidal, but my sense of humor on the subject has gotten considerably darker.

 

I used to be the kind of person who would sleep through an air-raid siren. It always took me longer to fall asleep than most (30+ minutes), but I slept like the dead. Now it feels like I wake up at the slightest provocation, and if my Fitbit is at all accurate, my slow-wave deep sleep is about half what it should be for someone my age.

 

I briefly considered going back on Lexapro, if even just for some relief, but then I remembered it put me here in the first place, and I wouldn't give it to my worst enemy. Then I read that might not work anyway. I can't go back in time and slap the prescription out of my hand, or explain to myself about implementing a much slower taper, so I feel like I'm basically SOL. It's been almost four years, and I'm still fighting this. I've even begun watching for research that we finally discover how to manually trigger various sleep phases, and stumbled across the recent studies on the VLPO region of the brain. I'm desperate and poking at anything I can find. 

 

I'm just so tired.

I'm sorry your having issues with this still.  Our symptoms seem very similar,  with regards to sleep.  I'm just over 4 years off Lexapro as well and still struggle with my sleep almost daily.  I had a set back in August and things seem to be very up and down now, especially with regards to sleep.  My dreaming it's very out of control,  seems like I dream from the time I fall asleep,  to the time I wake up. That has been going on for months.  I might have a week or two in between that it dosen't happen.  I wish you all the best and hopefully things will turn around for you soon.  

[BonesMoses]

On 2/23/2021 at 4:40 PM, lobster said:

I'm sorry your having issues with this still.  Our symptoms seem very similar,  with regards to sleep.  I'm just over 4 years off Lexapro as well and still struggle with my sleep almost daily.  I had a set back in August and things seem to be very up and down now, especially with regards to sleep.  My dreaming it's very out of control,  seems like I dream from the time I fall asleep,  to the time I wake up. That has been going on for months.  I might have a week or two in between that it dosen't happen.  I wish you all the best and hopefully things will turn around for you soon.  

 

Yeah. Things are still fairly up and down. My FitBit says my average is now 6.5 hours, but it doesn't feel that way. Part of the issue is that I only get 30-60 minutes of deep sleep a night, with an equal amount of REM; the rest is pure light sleep which isn't very refreshing. I feel worlds better on nights that I randomly get 1.5 hours of deep sleep.

 

And I've only gotten that far by taking 1mg of melatonin sublingually about half an hour before bed. That keeps me asleep until it runs out, and then I wake up, usually between 5:30 and 6am. Sometimes I can sleep all the way to 7am, but that seems random and I haven't been able to figure out how to reliably reproduce it.

 

Here's hoping we can both turn it around.

[Jen1234]

Hey! I just read your intro and we have a very similar story. So sorry you too have been suffering with the insomnia for so long. The first dose of Zoloft did it for me. I had terrible insomnia and panic attacks and anxiety immediately. They gave me amitriptyline and a benzo and then took me off that and I was put on lexapro. I felt my sleep go south again as I was to tearing up that and off the amitriptyline. I got off it after several weeks but the damage was done and once I came off of everything my sleep got 1000x worse. 2.5 years later and it’s getting a bit better but still such a struggle. I too did CBt-I with a psychologist. Two times actually with two different therapists. Did it all correctly with zero improvements. When I sleep I often can’t perceive it and sleep feels extremely shallow when I do perceive it. I recently purchased a Dreem 2 headband off of eBay (they go for so much cheaper in a Facebook Eeg sleep tracking group FYI). But what I’ve learned is that I am getting some sleep, more than I thought, however it’s extremely fragmented.I’m waking every 5-30 minutes. I saw you are using your Fitbit to track sleep. I’ve researched how accurate they are in determining sleep stages. Because they are not tracking your brain waves they are only 50% accurate in tracking sleep stages when compared to a polysomnography. So really they can’t tell you anything about your sleep stages and if you aren’t one to roll around much at night it will assume you are asleep when you’re not I’ve found. The Dreem 2 (only sold to researchers and healthcare professionals right now) is 85% accurate when compared to PSG recordings. It may be worth investing in something different to track your sleep. The philips eeg headband should be coming out with their second model in 2021. I’ve heard it should be even better than the Dreem 2 headband for accurate sleep tracking. It’s helped me in that it is reassuring to know I’m not always getting 0-3hrs even though that’s all I perceive most nights. I hope one day this goes away for both of us. Feel never ending most days 

[BonesMoses]

59 minutes ago, Jen1234 said:

I too did CBt-I with a psychologist. Two times actually with two different therapists. Did it all correctly with zero improvements. When I sleep I often can’t perceive it and sleep feels extremely shallow when I do perceive it.

 

Yeah. That's the thing, isn't it? I know nights when I sleep badly, regardless of what my FitBit might say. Even if I don't wake up entirely, I'll just be lying there in a fugue state for hours but not enough to fully wake up. Those are the nights I tend to feel the worst. I wish there was some kind of trigger you could pull to just enter a delta state.

 

1 hour ago, Jen1234 said:

I recently purchased a Dreem 2 headband off of eBay (they go for so much cheaper in a Facebook Eeg sleep tracking group FYI). But what I’ve learned is that I am getting some sleep, more than I thought, however it’s extremely fragmented.I’m waking every 5-30 minutes.

 

I'd be interested to know what group you'd recommend. I literally only own the FitBit for sleep tracking. Then again, I need to have a perfect environment to fall asleep, and I'm not sure how having a headband with a bunch of wires coming out of it would affect things. XD

 

1 hour ago, Jen1234 said:

So really they can’t tell you anything about your sleep stages and if you aren’t one to roll around much at night it will assume you are asleep when you’re not I’ve found. The Dreem 2 (only sold to researchers and healthcare professionals right now) is 85% accurate when compared to PSG recordings. It may be worth investing in something different to track your sleep.

 

I know my FitBit isn't exactly accurate, but it's the best I have. I was considering getting an Oura ring instead because it's not quite as annoying to wear. I can tell when I'm just laying there versus not, and yet it says I'm asleep. I definitely don't move much when I do go under, either. But I do check each night just to make a mental note at how closely it fits how I feel. I'd say it's better than 50%, but not by a whole lot.

 

Possibly the most annoying part of this is that I've had problems falling asleep my whole life because I have Aspergers. My brain literally produces less melatonin than most people already, and now thanks to having been on Lexapro, that amount is even lower and it's just plain not enough to get through the whole night. I woke up at 5:30 this morning, actually. I look over at my wife who can come back from using the restroom and fall asleep literally within seconds of climbing back into bed, and I can't help but feel envious. lol

[Jen1234]

So the Dreem 2 headband has no wires or anything neither does the philips. The group is called “the sleep tracker user group” it was originally for Dreem 2 only, but since they no longer sell it as a consumer device they group name recently changed. It feels like I’m wearing a baseball cap to bed. I also purchased an oura before discovering this eeg tracker and found it was very inaccurate telling me I got 10hours. I wish! I also used to be just like your wife. Would fall asleep within minutes. I miss that. I’m sorry to hear you’ve already had trouble sleeping due to Asperger’s. Awful that it’s been made even that much more difficult now.
 

How many days a week would you say you feel ok in the day these days?

[BonesMoses]

On 4/12/2021 at 7:47 PM, Jen1234 said:

So the Dreem 2 headband has no wires or anything neither does the philips. The group is called “the sleep tracker user group” it was originally for Dreem 2 only, but since they no longer sell it as a consumer device they group name recently changed. It feels like I’m wearing a baseball cap to bed.

 

Interesting. It's at least worth a try.

 

On 4/12/2021 at 7:47 PM, Jen1234 said:

How many days a week would you say you feel ok in the day these days?

 

Usually 1-2. I've found that even the semi-accurate fitbit seems to match how I feel pretty closely. The sleep scoring system is utterly broken, but if I look at how much deep sleep, REM, and so on, I feel best when it says I got at least 1.5 hours of deep and a similar amount of REM. Like, today i feel terrible even though I woke up around 6:45 (7.2 hours), but I only got supposedly 50 minutes of deep sleep, and I suspect it's actually less. I feel dizzy and have a headache, for example.

 

I'd really like to see how my brainwaves look during all of this. It's too bad I can't compare them with a before/after kind of thing; it would be nice to have quantitative evidence of the changes caused by the Lexapro.

 

Thanks again!

 

[PsychologicalSafe15]

@lobster how are your vivid dreams ? please help me it makes me exahausted .

[BonesMoses]

I'm strongly considering reintroducing a low dose of Lexapro back in. It's been almost another year with basically no improvement. I just woke up at 5am this morning and couldn't fall back asleep, and the whole rest of the week has been the same. This is killing me.

[ChessieCat]

Please see these topics:

 

are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

 

Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing the morning cortisol spike

 

If you do decide to reinstate it might be better to take citalopram instead of escitalopram.  Citalopram is a milder cousing of escitapram.  Lexapro / escitalopram is a very strong drug (see Post #1 of the Tips for Tapering Lexapro topic linked below).

 

Because you have been off Lexapro since 2016 if you do decide to do this, whether citalopram or escitalopram, my suggestion would be to start with a very low dose.  Perhaps 0.25mg citalopram or 0.1mg escitalopram.  This would be a tester dose to see how you respond to taking the drug again.  If things worsen after taking it then you would stop immediately.

 

It takes about 4 days for a dose to get to full level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  If after 1 week there has been no bad reaction but you have noticed some improvement then you could wait for 2 weeks.  If after 1 week you notice no improvement in your symptoms then you could increase the dose by a small amount, to 0.5mg citalopram, 0.2mg escitalopram.

 

It is better to make small gradual increases than to risk taking too much.  The aim would be to bring symptoms to a bearable level, NOT to get rid of them completely.  Some members have tried to find the "perfect" reinstatement dose and have ended up making things worse.  There is no guarantee that reinstating is going to resolve/ease your symptoms.

 

Please carefully read Post #1 of this topic:

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

Post #1 of these topics explains how to get non standard doses:

 

Tips for tapering off citalopram (Celexa)

 

Tips for tapering off escitalopram (Lexapro)

[thenextguy]

Hi @BonesMoses have you ever gotten a full vitamin/mineral panel done? It might help to identify (or rule out) other possible causes of insomnia.

 

Also, do you take melatonin daily? I see you’re on a small dose, but there is some research to indicate that after a long enough time melatonin can actually cause sleep problems, as your body down regulates normal production of melatonin since it’s getting an exogenous source of it. 

[BonesMoses]

On 3/5/2022 at 5:54 PM, thenextguy said:

Hi @BonesMoses have you ever gotten a full vitamin/mineral panel done? It might help to identify (or rule out) other possible causes of insomnia.

 

Also, do you take melatonin daily? I see you’re on a small dose, but there is some research to indicate that after a long enough time melatonin can actually cause sleep problems, as your body down regulates normal production of melatonin since it’s getting an exogenous source of it. 

 

My minerals are great, though I'm a bit on the low end of sodium and potassium probably because I'm fairly low carb.

 

The problem with ceasing melatonin is that it's the only reason I sleep at all now. If I don't take it, I basically just lay in bed. When I forget, I can tell immediately because I'll have been laying there for 20 minutes without being tired. And it's no surprise given serotonin is the precursor to melatonin, and ever since I stopped the Lexapro, my serotonin is basically trash.

 

On 3/5/2022 at 4:59 PM, ChessieCat said:

are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take

 

Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing the morning cortisol spike

 

I've read those. I figured "Surely, six years is enough, no?" but apparently not. The second doesn't apply. Usually I just wake up to use the restroom and then can't fall asleep again. I'm not having a spike of any kind, I'm just "awake" at that point.

 

On 3/5/2022 at 4:59 PM, ChessieCat said:

If you do decide to reinstate it might be better to take citalopram instead of escitalopram.  Citalopram is a milder cousing of escitapram.  Lexapro / escitalopram is a very strong drug (see Post #1 of the Tips for Tapering Lexapro topic linked below).

 

I'll consider that. My primary concern is that I have a heart condition, and Citalopram has a higher incidence of inducing rhythm irregularities.

 

On 3/5/2022 at 4:59 PM, ChessieCat said:

Because you have been off Lexapro since 2016 if you do decide to do this, whether citalopram or escitalopram, my suggestion would be to start with a very low dose.  Perhaps 0.25mg citalopram or 0.1mg escitalopram.  This would be a tester dose to see how you respond to taking the drug again.  If things worsen after taking it then you would stop immediately.

 

My plan was to just whip out my mortar and pestle and make an extremely diluted solution in a dropper bottle and slowly crank it up over the course of several weeks. It's pretty clear to me that after six years, I'm just not going to "go back to normal". I never was the best for falling asleep, but I never had issues staying asleep, or returning to sleep after an interruption. This is new, and IMO is related to my reduced serotonin levels following the withdrawal phase.

 

At this point, I'm convinced that the only "fix" would be to take the "reverse" of an SSRI and starve my brain of serotonin so it creates more receptors. But it would have to be an exact analog for Lexapro to truly be affective since the receptor affinities would have to be roughly equivalent. I doubt anything like that will ever exist. So my only other option would be to replace what my brain built itself around for 3ish years, or at least enough that it reduces the problematic symptoms.

 

At least, that's how I'm starting to see it after so long with little to no improvement.

 

I've also read that people have had success with Lamotrigine to an extent, so I'm thinking of asking my doctor about that. For what it's worth, I was on carbamazipine for a while for involuntary muscle twitching all over my body, because apparently I have CFS now. Given how I basically acquired chronic pain after stopping Lexapro, I don't think that's a coincidence either. I didn't like how it made me feel mentally, so I weaned off that. Still, if it works the same way as Lamotrigine, I'm willing to use it longer if it helps me get back to sleeping properly.

 

This has been a trainwreck, altogether. SSRIs should be banned.

[BonesMoses]

On 9/29/2021 at 9:21 AM, PsychologicalSafe15 said:

@lobster how are your vivid dreams ? please help me it makes me exahausted .

 

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, but my dreams have always been extremely vivid. In the past, I've gone lucid in one of these dreams and was noting to myself how real everything looked, marveling at the attention to detail my brain was giving everything, at the narrative it was constructing for my benefit. Of course, that's using dream logic so who knows how realistic things actually were.

 

That was both before and after Lexapro, so nothing has really changed in that regard.

 

[PsychologicalSafe15]

@BonesMosesAre you taking any other drug?

you quit in 2016 , and still vivid dreams?

Man that is scary.

 

Are you bloating? how is your belly?

[PsychologicalSafe15]

@BonesMoses Are you not scared?  Did you go for sleep study ?
Bruh 6 years off , I think mine is also going to be permanent .

It is said weed helps to subside vivid dreams. 

Were you dreaming before lexapro ? Sorry I didn't get you.

[BonesMoses]

26 minutes ago, PsychologicalSafe15 said:

@BonesMosesAre you taking any other drug?

you quit in 2016 , and still vivid dreams?

Man that is scary.

 

I'm also taking Synthroid, but I'm not on anything that would affect my dreams. And like I said, I've always had vivid dreams, even before I was on Lexapro, so I got used to it a long time ago.

 

Actually, here's an anecdote that both explains how deeply I used to sleep before Lexapro, and how vivid my dreams are/were my whole life.

 

For several years, I had to set an alarm clock that was across the room, have it at its maximum volume. and turn on the buzzer + music combination alarm. Why? Because if I only used music, my brain would simply integrate the music into my dream somehow, no matter how loud it was. Rock? I'd be in an aggressive chase of some kind, and elements of the lyrics would control what I'd see and interact with. Rap? I'd be arguing with a guy and his responses would be the lyrics. If they didn't make sense in that context, I'd simply think to myself, "What's wrong with this guy?" Just lots of that. No matter the genre, music basically couldn't wake me up.

 

Then I added the buzzer because it was usually annoying enough to jolt me awake... eventually. The problem is I eventually got used to that too. So instead of waking up, I'd be looking all around my surroundings for the cause of the incessant beeping. "Where is that coming from!?" I'd say to myself. That would become a quest to find the cause of the beeping, high and low, near and far, sometimes until the beeper stopped after its 1-hour limit.

 

That's how I used to sleep. The vivid dreams are just part of who I am. I remember dreams from when I was four or five years old. I've written a book and several short stories based on my dreams. And the thing is, because of how deeply I used to sleep, they never woke me up, no matter how vivid or involved. Thanks to this, I'd occasionally have a lucid dream because I commonly found it fairly easy to stay asleep even when taking control. It's a fine balance; take too much control and your actual brain takes over and you wake up.

 

The contrast between that and how I sleep now is (pardon the pun) night and day. I honestly consider it a travesty. I still have very vivid dreams and remember the content frequently, but I don't need an alarm anymore, even on workdays. Once I wake up to use the restroom, that's usually the end of my sleep for the day, even if it's 4am.

 

26 minutes ago, PsychologicalSafe15 said:

 

Are you bloating? how is your belly?

 

I've never had problems with bloating, before or after Lexapro.

[PsychologicalSafe15]

GOD human brain is crazy

[bastringue]

How is your deep sleep now? Do you sleep better?

[BonesMoses]

Looking at my fitbit, I seem to have gained maybe 20 minutes on average since my last post (from 6h30 to 6h50), and there have been nights where I'll get an hour of deep sleep or more, which was a rarity back then. But it's too intermittent, and I still have tons of "relapses" where I'll get well under 6h of terrible quality rest. Last night, I got 25 minutes of deep sleep despite the 7h total, and I can feel it. I tried some chamomile extract (apigenin) last night and I swear it's the worst I've slept in weeks. Then again, I mixed it with some Yogi Soothing Caramel Bedtime Tea and that has a lot of ingredients that make it difficult to isolate. I'll try just the apigenin tonight to see if that was the problem.

 

Basically I'm still searching. Still never oversleep, still wake up before my alarm by a minimum of 30 minutes. If I wake up to use the restroom and it's 5:30am or something, I'll just stay up, because I'll never fall asleep before it's basically time to get up again. None of this used to be a problem before the Lexapro, and I wish I never heard of the stuff.

[bastringue]

You say you did not have the problem before you started Lexapro. But did you experience this problem while you were taking Lexapro or did it start when you stopped it?

 

I'm asking because I have the same problem: I don't get deep sleep, feel tired every morning, and it has been like that for years. Do you have good results with your supplement? Strangely enough, I tried nearly the same supplements and for some reason it made my anxiety worse (maybe a bad reaction to D3... I used to take 150 magnesium bis-glycinate, 5,000iu D3 and 5 mg K2 MK-4).

[BonesMoses]

24 minutes ago, bastringue said:

You say you did not have the problem before you started Lexapro. But did you experience this problem while you were taking Lexapro or did it start when you stopped it?

 

After I stopped. I've never been great at falling asleep, but once there, I used to sleep like a log. It seemed about the same on Lexapro, but I remember feeling slightly better in the mornings. Unfortunately that was before I had a fitbit or anything to track the stats. Now it seems like all my sleep is much lighter in general, and once I wake up at any time, be it 3:30am or otherwise, I have about a 50% chance of falling asleep again. And when I do, it's often in a fugue state that's not restful at all.

 

The only supplement I can't seem to ever do without is the Melatonin. If I don't take that, I pretty much just don't fall asleep in any reasonable timeframe. I'll just lay in bed not being tired until I give up and take it, or give up in general. Sometimes when I'm desperate, I'll combine several things that seem to work in conjunction to knock me out, but I try to do it rarely given the substances:

• 25mg Benadryl (This is linked to dementia, so I try to avoid it if possible. But then again, so is lack of sleep...)
• 1ML CBD oil (I use Charlotte's Web, which is meant for epilepsy; it's one of the most concentrated available)
• 10mg CBN (another analogue, meant specifically for sleep)

Then I take a 1mg sublingual melatonin and read until I can't concentrate anymore, which takes 15-20 minutes. Then it takes another 10-15 minutes to actually fall asleep. I find if I miss that window, I have to start over with the melatonin. There are nights where I've had this combination fail after I've woken up at 3:30, so it's not perfect, but it has a fairly high batting average.

[bastringue]

I used to take melatonin up to 20 mg every night. I know this is overkill. After a week or two without it I could sleep a bit better. But of course I used to take caffeine as well and I reduced a lot so it helped as well. 

 

The thing that helped me most to sleep is l-theanine. It really made my sleep better. However, it made me moody the next day and I try not to replace addiction to AD by addiction to another substance.

 

I have been sleeping poorly for years, and it got worse since I stopped amitriptyline and mirtazapine, and started to taper down duloxetine. I am concerned for dementia as you are, as I also read a book stating that poor sleep can lead to it.

 

I hope it will get better for you.

 

 

 

[FreeMe]

I've been off Lexapro for 17 months and still have chronic insomnia.  I stopped taking melatonin because it wasn't working and gave me nightmares. I've tried various supplements which haven't helped. 

It was suggested I take Antihistamines which helped a couple of times and then didn't work. I tried CBD oil which didn't work and seemed to increase my anxiety. 

I take half a zopiclone or lorazepam a couple of times a week to get at least some sleep.  I try to do without as much as possible because I don't want to become dependent on them. 

I don't know what the answer is. 

I know the absolute hell lack of sleep and withdrawal is. 

My family and friends have very little to do with me. I'm tired and irritable and just no fun anymore.  

I've seriously considered going back on meds, but it took so long to get off them. I don't want to start all over again. 

I hope you are finding some peace and rest. I feel for what you are going through. 

[bastringue]

Did you have problem sleeping while on the drug?

 

I agree lack of sleep is absolute hell. Same thing for me. So tired all the time.

[FreeMe]

My sleep was better when I was on medication. I think things got worse when I changed to Lexapro from Citalopram. My sleep has never been as bad as it is now.

Yes, that constant tiredness.... It's hard to feel better when you're exhausted all the time. 

Mirtazapine has been recommended for me by my doctor to help with sleep, but I have refused it so far. I don't want to have to withdraw of anything else. Ever again. 

[BonesMoses]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:01 PM, bastringue said:

I hope it will get better for you.

 

Same to you. This is all pretty rough.

 

On 10/1/2022 at 1:08 PM, FreeMe said:

I take half a zopiclone or lorazepam a couple of times a week to get at least some sleep.  I try to do without as much as possible because I don't want to become dependent on them. 

 

I actually have both of those in my emergency stash too. Along with Mirtazapine and Trazodone. The Lorazepam works best, but being a benzo, I never take it unless I have no other choice, so I still have pills in the bottle I got five years ago. I'm sticking to the Melatonin as long as I can, because it helps me fall asleep faster, and according to the psychiatrist, there aren't really any drugs that can help with sleep maintenance. One of them asked if I'd looked into gabapentin, but I told him the last thing I need is to mess up my GABA system along with my Serotonin.

 

On 10/1/2022 at 1:08 PM, FreeMe said:

I've seriously considered going back on meds, but it took so long to get off them. I don't want to start all over again. 

I hope you are finding some peace and rest. I feel for what you are going through. 

 

I feel you there. I even threatened as much in this very post, but I can't bring myself to go through with it. It is, after all, what got me here in the first place.

 

And yeah, hopefully you, me, and everyone here gets some recovery from this.

 

On 10/1/2022 at 8:08 PM, bastringue said:

Did you have problem sleeping while on the drug?

 

None at all. In fact, I remember saying to myself one time that I'd never slept better. If not for the fact it basically killed my libido, I'd probably still be taking it.

[FreeMe]

Yes sometimes it is so tempting to just go back on them, but then all this suffering would have been for nothing.

Good to know that the lorazepam works better. I wanted to find out whether it worked better than zopiclone but didn't have much luck apart from my own trial and error with it. Maybe I should give the Melatonin another try. I was taking 3mg.

I think we will all recover in time. 

I was told by a family member today that I'm choosing to be like this. As in I'm choosing to be depressed and anxious and detached from life.  Um....no. Why would anyone choose to go through this. 

I'm in awe of all of us that are going through this. We must be pretty strong.

 

 

[bastringue]

On 10/2/2022 at 2:42 AM, FreeMe said:

Mirtazapine has been recommended for me by my doctor to help with sleep, but I have refused it so far. I don't want to have to withdraw of anything else. Ever again. 

I think it's a good decision. I took mirtazapine and you don't sleep, you coma. I had more ED with mirtazapine taking it on and off for six months than with all other meds together in 17 years.

[bastringue]

On 10/2/2022 at 9:52 PM, BonesMoses said:

 

None at all. In fact, I remember saying to myself one time that I'd never slept better. If not for the fact it basically killed my libido, I'd probably still be taking it.

 

I didn't sleep well on ADs and don't sleep well when tapering off. The only one that helped a bit was amitriptyline. I just reintroduced it at 5 mg because I tapered too fast and boy do I sleep a little bit better! I might be wrong, but I think a really really slow taper is the key... and some hope, because some damage can be permanent.

[FreeMe]

12 minutes ago, bastringue said:

I think it's a good decision. I took mirtazapine and you don't sleep, you coma. I had more ED with mirtazapine taking it on and off for six months than with all other meds together in 17 years.

Thank you for telling me that. Every time I see my doctor I'm reminded that I can take that and it would help me sleep. I want to sleep properly, not just be unconscious. 

 

14 minutes ago, bastringue said:

I think it's a good decision. I took mirtazapine and you don't sleep, you coma. I had more ED with mirtazapine taking it on and off for six months than with all other meds together in 17 years.

 

[FreeMe]

19 minutes ago, bastringue said:

 

I didn't sleep well on ADs and don't sleep well when tapering off. The only one that helped a bit was amitriptyline. I just reintroduced it at 5 mg because I tapered too fast and boy do I sleep a little bit better! I might be wrong, but I think a really really slow taper is the key... and some hope, because some damage can be permanent.

I agree with the slow taper. I wish I had  known more at the time. I tapered way too fast but not as fast as I was told to. The doctor I was seeing said there would be no side effects if I took all the supplements he recommended. Well that was totally wrong!  How often do you take amitriptyline? I did have one doctor suggest that long ago but I'm scared of trying anything new. But some regular sleep would be amazing.

 

25 minutes ago, bastringue said:

 

I didn't sleep well on ADs and don't sleep well when tapering off. The only one that helped a bit was amitriptyline. I just reintroduced it at 5 mg because I tapered too fast and boy do I sleep a little bit better! I might be wrong, but I think a really really slow taper is the key... and some hope, because some damage can be permanent.

 

[bastringue]

On 10/4/2022 at 2:24 PM, FreeMe said:

 How often do you take amitriptyline? I did have one doctor suggest that long ago but I'm scared of trying anything new. But some regular sleep would be amazing.

I take it every night, but I wouldn't recommand anyone starting it, because it is hell to stop and it comes with a lot of side effects. I needed to reintroduce it because I tapered too fast (went from 10-20 to 0 in three weeks), and since I take 5 mg every night I sleep a little bit better. It's still bad, but less bad. And I feel a little bit better as well.

 

Maybe a solution for you would be to reintroduce Lexapro at a very low dose, and then taper really really really slowly, like 1% for 4 weeks and 2 weeks on hold?

[FreeMe]

On 10/6/2022 at 1:34 PM, bastringue said:

I take it every night, but I wouldn't recommand anyone starting it, because it is hell to stop and it comes with a lot of side effects. I needed to reintroduce it because I tapered too fast (went from 10-20 to 0 in three weeks), and since I take 5 mg every night I sleep a little bit better. It's still bad, but less bad. And I feel a little bit better as well.

 

Maybe a solution for you would be to reintroduce Lexapro at a very low dose, and then taper really really really slowly, like 1% for 4 weeks and 2 weeks on hold?

Thanks for that. I'll give the amitryptiline a miss! Wow that really was a fast taper. I did mine over 4 months and that was bad enough. I'm glad that you sleep a little better and feel a bit better too. Yay! Sleep makes such a difference.

 

I'm reluctant to start Lexapro again. We can't get small doses here and I was cutting up tablets and kind of guessing how much I was taking when I was tapering. My problems got a lot worse when I was switched to Lexapro. I've been off it for 18 months now. It's tempting to go back on just to feel a bit better. I think I would rather go back to Citalopram if anything but once again, no low doses available. And it took so long to get off meds. I think if I went back on I probably wouldn't come off them again. 

[bastringue]

Did you try to put it into water? I did just that with amitriptyline. I put 6 10 mg pills into 60 ml of water, so 5 ml is 5 mg. Maybe you could do the same with Lexapro? I simply asked for those small brown bottles with a syringe at the drug store and they gave them to me for free.

 

Yeah, I feel much better now... Might try tapering again really soon, but sloooooowly!

 

Best of luck to you!