Rozon1: Effexor withdrawals

[Rozon1]

okay, but what about my nervous system issues that aren't emotionally engaged? @mstimc can those get better? I have a responsibility to my daughter to keep going too.. What did I do to my body?

[mstimc]

Yes, any symptom associated with your WD can and will get better.  You didn't do anything to your body.  Like the rest of us, you were told by a doctor--a professional--that you needed a drug to fix a "chemical imbalance" in your brain--an imbalance that most people say doesn't exist.  By associating your symptoms with "doing something" to your body, you're externalizing the problem, as if it happened to you.  While that's accurate to the extent you took a drug and then cold-turkeyed, recovery is internal, achieved by  adopting proactive cognitive skills that stop the ruminations and symptoms before they get out of control. Being a good parent to your daughter is a great incentive to do what's necessary.

[Rozon1]

okay, but @mstimc these symptoms don't seem to be letting up. it's like my nervous system is shut down. How can I somehow reboot it by positive thinking?

[Snorky]

1 hour ago, mstimc said:

If you're looking for reassurance, then yes you can get better, and no, you don't have to be like this forever.  You have a purpose in life.  My responsibility to my son kept me going through WD and recovery.

 

But you have to try.  As I told Snorky, nothing will improve if you're waiting for something to happen to you.  You need to make the effort--the tremendous, difficult effort--to make things happen for you.  Reinstating is passive, with the expectation that a medication will make things better.  If that were true, I'd ask my city to put SSRI's in the water supply.  I'm not going to address reinstating becasue its just adding to the viscous circle of your negative thinking.  You have to stop inventorying your symptoms and accept they're being driven by your WD.  Then you need to decide what you're going to do about it.  Nobody can or should do that for you.  Only you know what will make you start recovery.  Cocopuff just shared a success story, as have others.  You know recovery is possible and you know there are many ways you can start recovering.  As I stated above, my recovery didn't start until I found a therapist who gave me to tools to recover, and made me commit to using them.  He expected me to act on his guidance.  Nothing he said helped until I put his words into action.  You can do this if you stop waiting for things to get better and start getting control of your own thoughts.

 

 

Hi again M

 

One of the issues I have with my “therapist” is that he is reluctant for me to do all the CBT stuff, while I’m so palpably raw and challenged by my CT symptoms.

[mstimc]

By accepting the source.  Your nervous system isn't shut down--quite the opposite.  Its spinning in a million different directions and driving the feeling you're out of control.  What your mind can create, your mind can control.  Someone once told me the most frustrating thing about anxiety and fear is that you are afraid of literally nothing.  You don't have a disease or a physical disability--nothing you can quantify and see.  You are reacting to an avalanche of artificially-induced  thoughts and the symptoms they cause as if they were actual organic problems.  The brain is so powerful, it can cause awful physical symptoms.  But the source is thoughts--electrical impulses in your brain that turn into a false perception of reality.  That's where you need to start.

4 minutes ago, Snorky said:

Hi again M

 

One of the issues I have with my “therapist” is that he is reluctant for me to do all the CBT stuff, while I’m so palpably raw and challenged by my CT symptoms.

Then ask him what the hell he intends to do to help you.  I've never heard of that.

[mstimc]

8 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

okay, but @mstimc these symptoms don't seem to be letting up. it's like my nervous system is shut down. How can I somehow reboot it by positive thinking?

By accepting the source.  Your nervous system isn't shut down--quite the opposite.  Its spinning in a million different directions and driving the feeling you're out of control.  What your mind can create, your mind can control.  Someone once told me the most frustrating thing about anxiety and fear is that you are afraid of literally nothing.  You don't have a disease or a physical disability--nothing you can quantify and see.  You are reacting to an avalanche of artificially-induced  thoughts and the symptoms they cause as if they were actual organic problems.  The brain is so powerful, it can cause awful physical symptoms.  But the source is thoughts--electrical impulses in your brain that turn into a false perception of reality.  That's where you need to start.

[Snorky]

6 minutes ago, mstimc said:

By accepting the source.  Your nervous system isn't shut down--quite the opposite.  Its spinning in a million different directions and driving the feeling you're out of control.  What your mind can create, your mind can control.  Someone once told me the most frustrating thing about anxiety and fear is that you are afraid of literally nothing.  You don't have a disease or a physical disability--nothing you can quantify and see.  You are reacting to an avalanche of artificially-induced  thoughts and the symptoms they cause as if they were actual organic problems.  The brain is so powerful, it can cause awful physical symptoms.  But the source is thoughts--electrical impulses in your brain that turn into a false perception of reality.  That's where you need to start.

Then ask him what the hell he intends to do to help you.  I've never heard of that.

Going back on Wednesday for third session. Can’t speak for him, but think there’s s feeling that I “identify” as CT only and that dominates everything.

[Rozon1]

hey @mstimc I'm not comparing your issues with mine, but I am def dealing with physical symptoms that can't be simply resolved by positive thinking. PLease don't take it the wrong way. I'm literally suffering from an over active nervous system and I can't control it. Regardless. I've tried to stay calm and have tried CBT. Maybe not long enough but that can only take this so far. 

 

I really appreciate your words, though, I do. It gives me hope.

[Rozon1]

hey @Rosetta how do you feel today? Since you've CT'd? How long has it been? I'm struggling today really bad. I really just want to feel better. 

[mstimc]

10 hours ago, Rozon1 said:

hey @mstimc I'm not comparing your issues with mine, but I am def dealing with physical symptoms that can't be simply resolved by positive thinking. PLease don't take it the wrong way. I'm literally suffering from an over active nervous system and I can't control it. Regardless. I've tried to stay calm and have tried CBT. Maybe not long enough but that can only take this so far. 

 

I really appreciate your words, though, I do. It gives me hope.

Rozon, please reread your post.  Do you see the conflict going on in your thoughts?  You're dealing with physical symptoms yet you know they're being driven by your over-active nervous system.   If you know where they're coming from, what do you intend to do?

 

CBT and coping aren't just "positive thinking"; that's trite and patronizing.  They are science-based mental practices that have a proven track record of managing the worst behavioral issues.  They  can be tough to put into practice but they pay off.  I'm living proof they work. 

 

You've reached out to the members here and asked for support and advice, and we've taken the time and made the effort to respond.  At some point, you need to stop telling us--and more importantly, yourself--that nothing will help, and decide how you want to get your life back.  It's obvious you want to get better, or you wouldn't be here and you wouldn't ask us how we recovered.  Like I've said before, wanting isn't enough.  You need to act.  I'll ask again, what do you intend to do? 

[Subzero42]

10 hours ago, Rozon1 said:

hey @Rosetta how do you feel today? Since you've CT'd? How long has it been? I'm struggling today really bad. I really just want to feel better. 

 

Reinstate a few beads, what do you have to lose ?

[Snorky]

13 hours ago, Rozon1 said:

hey @mstimc I'm not comparing your issues with mine, but I am def dealing with physical symptoms that can't be simply resolved by positive thinking. PLease don't take it the wrong way. I'm literally suffering from an over active nervous system and I can't control it. Regardless. I've tried to stay calm and have tried CBT. Maybe not long enough but that can only take this so far. 

 

I really appreciate your words, though, I do. It gives me hope.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I think you and I are in a similar place, in terms of:

 

a) Severity of neurological symptoms 

b) Apparent deterioration of symptoms

 

I’m also being helped (magnificently) by M. I just wanted you to know I’m also having issues using positive thinking and other coping strategies to alleviate my symptoms.

 

For instance, I’m struggling with constant head tremors and pins and needles sensation in head and legs. Having a massive impact on sleep, home life and work. (Extremely difficult to understand and interpret info and engage with colleagues)

 

Think we should compare notes and timelines. 

 

God bless you.

[Rozon1]

Hey @mstimc I just wish I could go back to a slower taper and probably coulda avoided all of this. I think reinstating is my best choice. Been in a bad wave for a few days and honestly my windows don’t really help my physical symptoms. My mind can’t wrap around anything but my symptoms at the moment. It’s all too fresh. sorry to undermine you I just don’t feel up to the task at the moment I guess. I can’t be positive. It’s sooo hard. 
 

hey, @Subzero42 how are you feeling now? I know you’re not stable but are you glad you reinstated? Plan on being on the drug for a while? I’m thinking about it.

 

 

@Snorky yes, we dealing with neurological symptoms. Different ones but the same. I wake up with anxiety like I have never experienced. Decided on reinstating yet?

[Subzero42]

Just now, Rozon1 said:
 

hey, @Subzero42 how are you feeling now? I know you’re not stable but are you glad you reinstated? Plan on being on the drug for a while? I’m thinking about it.

Yes a lot better, I was living a nightmare, I suggest you reinstate only 5 beads at first, 

considering that the amount of drug becomes steady state after 4 days 

[Rozon1]

How’s your quality of life @Subzero42?

[Snorky]

32 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

Hey @mstimc I just wish I could go back to a slower taper and probably coulda avoided all of this. I think reinstating is my best choice. Been in a bad wave for a few days and honestly my windows don’t really help my physical symptoms. My mind can’t wrap around anything but my symptoms at the moment. It’s all too fresh. sorry to undermine you I just don’t feel up to the task at the moment I guess. I can’t be positive. It’s sooo hard. 
 

hey, @Subzero42 how are you feeling now? I know you’re not stable but are you glad you reinstated? Plan on being on the drug for a while? I’m thinking about it.

 

 

@Snorky yes, we dealing with neurological symptoms. Different ones but the same. I wake up with anxiety like I have never experienced. Decided on reinstating yet?

No. My problem is I’d have to reinstate Effexor, as had loads of adverse effects on amitriptyline. Some people on here warming me of grave risks to already destabilised CNS. Talk of symptoms being worse than present, although you’d think that was hardly possible.

[Rozon1]

Yes, that’s what I’m afraid of @Snorky. People have told me that I could get worse for reinstating at a low dose. Which makes me wonder if it’s even worth it. Being worse than this? I don’t even want to find out. But I’m willing to do that I think. I’m tired of having this endless anxiety. It’s too much for me to handle. 

[mstimc]

43 minutes ago, Snorky said:

No. My problem is I’d have to reinstate Effexor, as had loads of adverse effects on amitriptyline. Some people on here warming me of grave risks to already destabilised CNS. Talk of symptoms being worse than present, although you’d think that was hardly possible.

 

41 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

Yes, that’s what I’m afraid of @Snorky. People have told me that I could get worse for reinstating at a low dose. Which makes me wonder if it’s even worth it. Being worse than this? I don’t even want to find out. But I’m willing to do that I think. I’m tired of having this endless anxiety. It’s too much for me to handle. 

Hi Guys

@Snorky and @Rozon1If you guys decide to reinstate, I hope it goes well for you and you get what you expect.  I strongly recommend you develop some kind of plan after you stabilize so you can do a reasonable and realistic taper.

[Rozon1]

Hey @mstimc have you seen people reinstate at a low dose and taper off successfully? 

[mstimc]

Just now, Rozon1 said:

Hey @mstimc have you seen people reinstate at a low dose and taper off successfully? 

I really can't remember, to be honest.  But since I've seen people recover successfully from CT to three-year micro-tapers, I'd say its a safe bet its happened to someone.

[Rozon1]

@mstimc when you say cold turkey and 3 year micro tapers, or you saying them both individually? Like you’ve seen people recover from cold turkey AND three year micro tapers? I’m just so lost. You’ve been a great sound of advice and I appreciate you. Didn’t get much sleep last night as I’ve been tossing and turning. It’s tough out here. Not even tired. It’s like my symptoms haven’t gotten better. 

[mstimc]

No, by different people.  My point was I've seen people in just about any situation recover.

[Ella56]

50 minutes ago, mstimc said:

 

Hi Guys

@Snorky and @Rozon1If you guys decide to reinstate, I hope it goes well for you and you get what you expect.  I strongly recommend you develop some kind of plan after you stabilize so you can do a reasonable and realistic taper.

Hello, I dont understand how you where told you would get worse. I was told it may work or may not because i was off celexa for 5 months. That means may help symptoms may not. But never heard worse. I heard but didnt get clear if you go back on what you where on before after being off for awhile the system might not like that. Im confused too. Maybe someone can clarify this more. 

[mstimc]

23 minutes ago, Ella56 said:

Hello, I dont understand how you where told you would get worse. I was told it may work or may not because i was off celexa for 5 months. That means may help symptoms may not. But never heard worse. I heard but didnt get clear if you go back on what you where on before after being off for awhile the system might not like that. Im confused too. Maybe someone can clarify this more. 

Hi Ella.  First, all drugs run the risk of side effects.  As many here have documented, the side effects of SSRI can be lethargy and a loss of emotion, among others.  When you’re dealing with a nervous system that’s over sensitized by withdrawal, the risks of side effects increase. Many members here can give you their personal experiences.

[Ella56]

6 minutes ago, mstimc said:

Hi Ella.  First, all drugs run the risk of side effects.  As many here have documented, the side effects of SSRI can be lethargy and a loss of emotion, among others.  When you’re dealing with a nervous system that’s over sensitized by withdrawal, the risks of side effects increase. Many members here can give you their personal experiences.

If your cns is used to being run by ssri and take it away, does it go into a fit? , and you give it some back, what you are saying it may like that and may not? Its complicated then to know what to do. I reinstated 1mg  after 5 months off and not sure it helping but thinking adding more now.  I am sorry not much help with what one should do. IJust want clear understand of what would help my symptoms and not hurt my cns as everyone else here.

[mstimc]

1 minute ago, Ella56 said:

If your cns is used to being run by ssri and take it away, does it go into a fit? , and you give it some back, what you are saying it may like that and may not? Its complicated then to know what to do. I reinstated 1mg  after 5 months off and not sure it helping but thinking adding more now.  I am sorry not much help with what one should do. IJust want clear understand of what would help my symptoms and not hurt my cns as everyone else here.

Hi

Going back to the basics, pharmaceutical companies aren't really sure how SSRI's work.  Of course, they know how they work chemically, but not how or why they "help".  The whole chemical imbalance theory of mental health is highly debatable.  That's why you see many people who started SSRI's get hit with many different side effects.  Even when they work, its only about half to three-quarters of the time.  I for one had lethargy, a major loss of emotion and gained a lot of weight.  Like any other psychoactive drug, eventually you may develop a tolerance and it just stops working at the current dose, so you begin experiencing anxiety or depression or whatever got you on them in the first place, then you need more just to maintain a feeling of normalcy.

 

As you said, when you remove a drug to which your brain has become accustomed, it starts reacting, often in extreme and unexpected ways.  If you then reintroduce a drug, you're dealing with a whole different situation.  You're swinging your brain's chemistry from one extreme to another. It may work or it may not.  It may be better or it may be worse.  That's why a taper is better than cold turkey; it gives your brain time to slowly adjust to its new reality, and for you to adopt the coping skills to manage your behavioral issues after you're drug-free.

 

Does that help?

[Rozon1]

So in theory @mstimc everyone recovers eventually? Just takes the brain a lot more time to adjust from a cold turkey

[mstimc]

10 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

So in theory @mstimc everyone recovers eventually? Just takes the brain a lot more time to adjust from a cold turkey

 

10 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

So in theory @mstimc everyone recovers eventually? Just takes the brain a lot more time to adjust from a cold turkey

 

Well, yeah!  That's what I've been trying to tell you all this time! 😄

[mstimc]

Just now, mstimc said:

 

Well, yeah!  That's what I've been trying to tell you all this time! 😄

And that should come with a caveat.  Everyone who tries recovers.  A lot of people either stay on SSRI's or benzos all their lives because they don't know there are better alternatives.  My father was taking two powerful benzos right up to the day he died and there was no trying to talk him out if it. 

 

And again, I can't overstate how important it is to be prepared to deal with whatever situation got you on the meds in the first place.  Weaning off a med won't do any good if you're unable to manage your anxiety or depression or OCD or whatever you deal with.  

[Rozon1]

Hey @mstimc I was put on the medication for headaches. Not anxiety. I’ve had relatively no anxiety before I came off this drug. So, if that is what you’re referring to, I didn’t have it until this drug. Nothing underlying other than what this drug has caused

[Snorky]

19 minutes ago, mstimc said:

And that should come with a caveat.  Everyone who tries recovers.  A lot of people either stay on SSRI's or benzos all their lives because they don't know there are better alternatives.  My father was taking two powerful benzos right up to the day he died and there was no trying to talk him out if it. 

 

And again, I can't overstate how important it is to be prepared to deal with whatever situation got you on the meds in the first place.  Weaning off a med won't do any good if you're unable to manage your anxiety or depression or OCD or whatever you deal with.  

Hi M

 

Hope you don’t mind me pitching in at this point. The ole chestnut about dealing with return of “original condition”. On the one had we’re told that ADWD accounts for the nasty symptoms, not return of depression/anxiety etc. I.e the reality of not being able to manage the original problem could easily generate the nasty symptoms we”re told are all associated with ADWD. That could include my shakes, nerve pain, mental tension, depression, anhedonia and restlessness???

 

 

[mstimc]

Just now, Rozon1 said:

Hey @mstimc I was put on the medication for headaches. Not anxiety. I’ve had relatively no anxiety before I came off this drug. So, if that is what you’re referring to, I didn’t have it until this drug. Nothing underlying other than what this drug has caused

Ok, that's great.  But you have it now and need some way of handling it as you withdraw.

[mstimc]

1 minute ago, Snorky said:

Hi M

 

Hope you don’t mind me pitching in at this point. The ole chestnut about dealing with return of “original condition”. On the one had we’re told that ADWD accounts for the nasty symptoms, not return of depression/anxiety etc. I.e the reality of not being able to manage the original problem could easily generate the nasty symptoms we”re told are all associated with ADWD. That could include my shakes, nerve pain, mental tension, depression, anhedonia and restlessness???

 

 

I think I understand your point.  I'm assuming there was some issue that caused your doctor to put you on an SSRI, (e.g anxiety or depression).   Since you were given a med, I think its safe to assume that condition was something you found unpleasant enough to want to get rid of, and couldn't on your own.  The drug may have helped in terms of symptoms, but drugs aren't therapy any more than a band-aid is real skin.  So what I'm advocating is that you need to be prepared to manage that original condition as you recover, or you'll right back in the place you started. 

[Cocopuffz17]

6 minutes ago, mstimc said:

I think I understand your point.  I'm assuming there was some issue that caused your doctor to put you on an SSRI, (e.g anxiety or depression).   Since you were given a med, I think its safe to assume that condition was something you found unpleasant enough to want to get rid of, and couldn't on your own.  The drug may have helped in terms of symptoms, but drugs aren't therapy any more than a band-aid is real skin.  So what I'm advocating is that you need to be prepared to manage that original condition as you recover, or you'll right back in the place you started. 

Absolutely, if you don’t fix the root cause you will go back to exactly what you had. 99% of our body is created by the foods we eat. Why wouldn’t it be the cause of good or bad things our bodies do? 

[Snorky]

26 minutes ago, mstimc said:

I think I understand your point.  I'm assuming there was some issue that caused your doctor to put you on an SSRI, (e.g anxiety or depression).   Since you were given a med, I think its safe to assume that condition was something you found unpleasant enough to want to get rid of, and couldn't on your own.  The drug may have helped in terms of symptoms, but drugs aren't therapy any more than a band-aid is real skin.  So what I'm advocating is that you need to be prepared to manage that original condition as you recover, or you'll right back in the place you started. 

Thanks, Still a bit confused though. Say in my case, I’ve been CT for six months and constantly advised my symptoms are common ADWD, destabilised CNS etc. Is there a possibility that what I’m now facing is a consequence of “not managing the original situation? (Fiendishly hard to differentiate)  Also can’t recall why meds’ originally prescribed. I’m thinking it’s GAD like 99% of others?

 

Thanks 

[mstimc]

1 minute ago, Snorky said:

Thanks, Still a bit confused though. Say in my case, I’ve been CT for six months and constantly advised my symptoms are common ADWD, destabilised CNS etc. Is there a possibility that what I’m now facing is a consequence of “not managing the original situation? (Fiendishly hard to differentiate)  Also can’t recall why meds’ originally prescribed. I’m thinking it’s GAD like 99% of others?

 

Thanks 

Hi

 

As I responded to Rozon, it doesn't make much difference which is what.  Fortunately, your symptoms are indeed common to WD and can therefore be managed by the methods we've discussed before.  There's no need to expend time and effort to differentiate since its the management that counts.