Rozon1: Effexor withdrawals

[Snorky]

45 minutes ago, Cocopuffz17 said:

Absolutely, if you don’t fix the root cause you will go back to exactly what you had. 99% of our body is created by the foods we eat. Why wouldn’t it be the cause of good or bad things our bodies do? 

Did you see my follow up response?

[Snorky]

23 minutes ago, mstimc said:

Hi

 

As I responded to Rozon, it doesn't make much difference which is what.  Fortunately, your symptoms are indeed common to WD and can therefore be managed by the methods we've discussed before.  There's no need to expend time and effort to differentiate since its the management that counts.

Thanks M

 

Hoping you’d say that. Have to believe the techniques and tools are able to address one hell of a basket list of symptoms, both WD and earlier. 

 

27 minutes ago, mstimc said:

Hi

 

As I responded to Rozon, it doesn't make much difference which is what.  Fortunately, your symptoms are indeed common to WD and can therefore be managed by the methods we've discussed before.  There's no need to expend time and effort to differentiate since its the management that counts.

Thanks M

 

Hoping you’d say that. Have to believe the techniques and tools are able to address one hell of a basket list of symptoms, both WD and earlier. 

[mstimc]

Just now, Snorky said:

Thanks M

 

Hoping you’d say that. Have to believe the techniques and tools are able to address one hell of a basket list of symptoms, both WD and earlier. 

 

They are for sure.  I once asked my shrink where my anxiety and OCD came from.  He said nobody's really sure--there's a genetic component (my father had it late in life) and it may exacerbated by life experiences.  After that, I figured it didn't much matter as long as I learned to manage it.

[Snorky]

6 minutes ago, mstimc said:

They are for sure.  I once asked my shrink where my anxiety and OCD came from.  He said nobody's really sure--there's a genetic component (my father had it late in life) and it may exacerbated by life experiences.  After that, I figured it didn't much matter as long as I learned to manage it.

Obrigado. My biggest problem at the moment is getting more than three hours sleep a night. Don’t think the techniques can deal with that?

[mstimc]

You can try to engage in some quieting thoughts.  I've been a lifelong insomniac and have tried all sorts of things.  Right now,  I listen to an audio book on my I've read many times.  I play *** very softly on my Ipad.  That seems to help.  

[Rozon1]

Hey @mstimc I guess my underlying question is to you. What if we simply can’t manage? Is it possible to still heal if we don’t manage our symptoms? Ex. Overactive nervous system that gives you relentless anxiety that just can’t be controlled. Is that what I’m getting? 

[mstimc]

Well, taken to its ridiculous extreme, you could dope yourself up to the degree you walk around in a fog, but at least you won't feel bad--you won't feel much of anything.  And I'm not being a smartass.  In 2008 in the middle of my WD and taper, I told my shrink that's what I wanted to do just to get some peace.  He talked me down, thank God.  So there are always options, hopefully not that extreme. 

 

Maybe it would be better and make you feel more in control if you thought about what it would take to manage your symptoms, for example, when you feel your heart racing, what can you do?  What calming practices will help you get your rate back to normal?   

 

Make no mistake, I had unremitting and horrid anxiety for many months in WD and recovery.  I mean from the second I woke up to the minute I managed to fall asleep.  Then throw in hypochondria and catastrophic obsessive thinking with a mix of guilt and you have my life for the better part of three years.  All the while holding down a job and trying to be a decent father and husband.  If I could do it, anyone can. 

 

 

[Rozon1]

Thanks for the reply @mstimc. What I was referring to, will my symptoms eventually get better over time without these managing and CBT techniques. I’m being frank with you. I can’t think of cbt or managing at the moment. It’s just survival. It’s not an option at the time. Maybe in the future but my anxiety is too much. 
 

 

[mstimc]

Just now, Rozon1 said:

Thanks for the reply @mstimc. What I was referring to, will my symptoms eventually get better over time without these managing and CBT techniques. I’m being frank with you. I can’t think of cbt or managing at the moment. It’s just survival. It’s not an option at the time. Maybe in the future but my anxiety is too much. 
 

 

No, tney will not IMO.  You've developed some extremely negative thinking habits that won't break by themselves.  If you have diabetes, it doesn't just go away by itself.  The only other option is to go back on medication strong enough to suppress the feelings to make them tolerable, but you already know the chances you're taking with that.  

 

Don't treat this as an either/or situation.  There is no reason you can't try a combination of things, like a minimal reinstatement combined with coping practices, or talk therapy and coping or all of the above.  I recovered by using a taper, combined with therapy where I learned CBT techniques.  I didn't stop taking Paxil and then start therapy.  You need to find the mix that works for you.

[Rozon1]

Oh damn.. so you really don’t think my nervous system will get better over time????? Then I’m basically looking at being ***** for the rest of my life? Like legit *****. My negative thinking habits are purely from this withdrawl hell. I think anyone in my situation will feel the same. Holy ****... so recovery isn’t looking too good @mstimc what am I gunna do man? I can’t do this if I’m not gunna get better naturally.. 

 

Constipated for the rest of my life??? Heart palpitations?? I can’t imagine doing this for the rest of my 50 years on earth. Dude I’m done 

[mstimc]

2 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

Oh damn.. so you really don’t think my nervous system will get better over time????? Then I’m basically looking at being ***** for the rest of my life? Like legit *****. My negative thinking habits are purely from this withdrawl hell. I think anyone in my situation will feel the same. Holy ****... so recovery isn’t looking too good @mstimc what am I gunna do man? I can’t do this if I’m not gunna get better naturally.. 

 

NO NO NO!!!!  This is a perfect example of your negative thinking!  You're taking what I told you and completely turning it around.  Don't do that.  You asked me if you'll get better if you just sit around and wait for your symptoms to somehow go away by themselves.  I've been telling you in response after response that's now how it works.  And even if it did, if you had options to make them go away sooner, why wouldn't you jump on that?!?   There is a huge difference between "naturally" and "doing nothing".   Changing your thinking is getting better "naturally".  You are not doomed to a life of anxiety.  There are so many options if you just make an effort.  

 

Its very simple:

 

• You were givena drug that screwed up your nervous system by altering your brain chemistry
• You stopped taking the drug in November 
• Your nervous system is still feeling the effects of the drug and its discontinuance, which is not unusual, as any number of other members can attest.  You are also suffering from the physical effects associated with discontinuance. 
• Due to the destabilization of your nervous system, you've fallen into a pattern of habitual catastrophic thinking where you think nothing will make this better, except perhaps reinstating the drug at a lower dose.
• I and others have pointed out you have alternatives, but the choice is yours.  You can reinstate, or you can try behavioral modifications, or you can do one then the other, or one and the other. 

In no way did I suggest you are stuck where you are. I am fully confident of your potential for recovery.   But you can't wish any of this away or hope it fades away by itself.  Time heals but not by itself. 

 

 

 

 

[Rozon1]

Hey @mstimc my question was is, if these physical symptoms that my body is going through will heal if I don’t do  the things you’ve told me about. Constipation, heart palpitations, chest tightness, etc. I’m not talking about my anxiety. I understand I can control that to some extent. I’m referring to the nerve problems that I’m having. 
 

thanks for responding. I think I’m a vulnerable position and I am just too stimulated. 

 

 

[mstimc]

1 minute ago, Rozon1 said:

Hey @mstimc my question was is, if these physical symptoms that my body is going through will heal if I don’t do  the things you’ve told me about. Constipation, heart palpitations, chest tightness, etc. I’m not talking about my anxiety. I understand I can control that to some extent. I’m referring to the nerve problems that I’m having. 

Let me ask you a question.  Do you think the physical symptoms are linked to your mental state?

[Rozon1]

 @mstimc absolutely not. I didn’t start getting the anxiety or until about two months off the drug. The first symptom that started was constipation. Then it was Tempature  disregulation. All in about two weeks after disconting the drug.  By the way I was fully optimistic at this point I was going to heal. Wasn’t a negative thought in my mind. Then I got insomnia! I was happy because I was always tired on the drug. All the time.  I figured these physical symptoms would pass. My body was jacked up. And I was still HAPPY and optimistic I was ginna get better. Then they never passed and then I got anxiety because they never passed.  Effexor is a nerve medication. It’s a ssnri not an SSRI. Much like Cymbalta. It can effect your nerves. THATS why I’m worried. 
 

 

[mstimc]

I don't think I've ever heard of any SSRI or SSNRI causing permanent physical damage.   The physical effects of withdrawal, including the things you mentioned, have been experienced by many members here.  There is no reason to think you are any different.  If you're convinced your symptoms are really organically physical, then maybe a medical doctor would be a better choice than a peer support group. 

 

 

[mstimc]

Also, you weren't on Effexor very long--since 2018 if I read your bio right. I took Paxil for almost nine years and didn't suffer any physical damage.

[Rozon1]

11 minutes ago, mstimc said:

I don't think I've ever heard of any SSRI or SSNRI causing permanent physical damage.   The physical effects of withdrawal, including the things you mentioned, have been experienced by many members here.  There is no reason to think you are any different.  If you're convinced your symptoms are really organically physical, then maybe a medical doctor would be a better choice than a peer support group. 

 

 

What’s a doctor going to do? I’m aware it’s WD. We don’t have diagnostic tools to help with autonomic nervous system diagnosis. Just isn’t possible. Why would I need to go else where? I just want comfort damnit. That’s all I want. I DONT want to reinstate. I repeat I don’t want to. I just don’t want to feel like this. My body is physically jacked. It’s not like I wake up and have anxiety and all of sudden I’m constipated. Or I have chills in a relatively normal room temperature bed. Or my chest is tight. It’s just what it is. That’s how my body is regardless of mental outlook. Listen, I’m sorry if I seem combative but I’m desperate and I’m not going to give up on living. 

[mstimc]

1 minute ago, Rozon1 said:

What’s a doctor going to do? I’m aware it’s WD. We don’t have diagnostic tools to help with autonomic nervous system diagnosis. Just isn’t possible. Why would I need to go else where? I just want comfort damnit. That’s all I want. I DONT want to reinstate. I repeat I don’t want to. I just don’t want to feel like this. My body is physically jacked. It’s not like I wake up and have anxiety and all of sudden I’m constipated. Or my chest is tight. It’s just what it is. That’s how my body is regardless of mental outlook. Listen, I’m sorry if I seem combative but I’m desperate and I’m not going to give up on living. 

You know what, I'm obviously not the person who can help you.   You just said you're convinced your symptoms are physical and not linked to your withdrawal.  You've chosen to self-diagnose with no medical proof whatsoever.  Yet you feel you don't need a doctor.

 

I'm 6,000 miles away from my friends and family while a real pandemic is overrunning my home country.  But I take the time and make the effort to jump on this site and share my experiences in the hopes they'll help people going though what I went through.  I only have a limited amount of emotional energy to share and I need to use it where it will help.  I truly wish you well.

[Rozon1]

@mstimc I literally said in the above post my symptoms ARE due to my WD's. I literally appreciate you coming and giving me your advice. Please don't think that I don't. It means more to me than you would ever know. I genuinely appreciate it. But please understand my situation. I'm desperate. I don't know what to think. I haven't self diagnosed myself. That's why I'm here. 

[Ella56]

50 minutes ago, mstimc said:

 

NO NO NO!!!!  This is a perfect example of your negative thinking!  You're taking what I told you and completely turning it around.  Don't do that.  You asked me if you'll get better if you just sit around and wait for your symptoms to somehow go away by themselves.  I've been telling you in response after response that's now how it works.  And even if it did, if you had options to make them go away sooner, why wouldn't you jump on that?!?   There is a huge difference between "naturally" and "doing nothing".   Changing your thinking is getting better "naturally".  You are not doomed to a life of anxiety.  There are so many options if you just make an effort.  

 

Its very simple:

 

• You were givena drug that screwed up your nervous system by altering your brain chemistry
• You stopped taking the drug in November 
• Your nervous system is still feeling the effects of the drug and its discontinuance, which is not unusual, as any number of other members can attest.  You are also suffering from the physical effects associated with discontinuance. 
• Due to the destabilization of your nervous system, you've fallen into a pattern of habitual catastrophic thinking where you think nothing will make this better, except perhaps reinstating the drug at a lower dose.
• I and others have pointed out you have alternatives, but the choice is yours.  You can reinstate, or you can try behavioral modifications, or you can do one then the other, or one and the other. 

In no way did I suggest you are stuck where you are. I am fully confident of your potential for recovery.   But you can't wish any of this away or hope it fades away by itself.  Time heals but not by itself. 

 

 

 

 

@Rozon1I believe you will heal i am healing this ***t and it takes months. 6 months now. Even if i go down the tube of despair again. Your anxiety is making u fear your symptoms.me too. Moment to moment. Physically the body will heal. Eating well is very important. I believe, it Will help the time it takes. 

[mstimc]

I'm sorryy, Rozon, but I can't hot a moving target.  You just said:

I literally said in the above post my symptoms ARE due to my WD's

 

But a few posts up I asked you that very question and your answer:

 

[Rozon1]

okay, so I understand @mstimc... I objectively know these PHYSICAL symptoms are indeed due to my WD. There's no  doubt it. The physical symptoms were there before any of my mental state has changed. Just so we're clear and not confused. Are you saying the physical symptoms are a manifestation of my mental state? Help me understand what you mean

[mstimc]

3 minutes ago, Rozon1 said:

okay, so I understand @mstimc... I objectively know these PHYSICAL symptoms are indeed due to my WD. There's no  doubt it. The physical symptoms were there before any of my mental state has changed. Just so we're clear and not confused. Are you saying the physical symptoms are a manifestation of my mental state? Help me understand what you mean

Yes, that's exactly what I've been saying.  Your nervous system was messing with you before you started feeling anxious, manifesting as physical symptoms first then the anxiety.  Its not that unusual.  Before my bad anxiety hit me, I was clenching my teeth at night so badly I cracked two teeth.  If you start some kind of recovery practice, your physical and mental symptoms will decrease.  They feed off each other and you can't treat them as two separate things. 

[Altostrata]

9 hours ago, Snorky said:

Sorry to hijack this thread

....

 

@Snorky, let's talk about thread hijacking. Stop it. Talk about yourself in your own topic.

 

4 hours ago, Rozon1 said:

So in theory @mstimc everyone recovers eventually? Just takes the brain a lot more time to adjust from a cold turkey

 

Are we still working on this, Rozon? Do not ask this question again. This is a pre-warning. Re-read your topic.

 

So, how are you feeling since we first brought up the topic of low-dose reinstatement in January? Better, worse?

 

What have you done in self-care? How's your sleep?

[Rozon1]

hey, @Altostrata thanks for the warnings. I suppose they were deserved it's just when I'm in a desperate state of mind, I don't do good. Therapy maybe? Thanks for asking. The past two nights of sleep have been not good. Maybe 2-3 hours. Just anxiety has been keeping it light. It's still better. Over all, I can't tell if I'm doing better or worse.

 

I'd like to say slightly better but I mean SLIGHTLY. Constant nervous stomach. Over all, not good at all. The anxiety i have now is more of a normal anxiety due to my symptoms and nothing like it was a month ago but its certainly still bad.

 

I'll take this opportunity to ask, how do you feel today since the last dose you took? Does your heart giving you problems?

 

I called the pharmacy today for a compounding drug. Have heavily been considering going back to it since it just seems things haven't improved much if at all.

 

 

[Altostrata]

I'm going to have to ask you to read your thread again from the beginning.

 

We discussed how to improve your sleep. We discussed how to take a low dose for reinstatement. This does not require a compounding pharmacy.

 

We discussed how you might be making your own problems. If CBT doesn't appeal to you, there are many other ways to manage your tendency to ruminate:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

Shame, guilt, regret, and self-criticism

 

Health anxiety, hypochondria, and obsession with symptoms

 

 

If you don't pay attention to responses from the staff, why should we respond to you? You are in danger of wearing people out.

 

I strongly recommend you look hard at all our suggestions and IN YOUR NEXT POST, report how you are applying at least one to the problems you spend so much time worrying about and complaining about here.

[Colonial]

On 3/13/2020 at 3:58 AM, Snorky said:

also, @Colonial my anxiety now stems from the way my body feels. Like I’m self aware that I’m not supposed to feel this way so I constantly worry about it. 

 

@Snorky But your body SHOULD feel this way right now, its a normal sign of the WD Process.  A difficult one but normal. And I think when the symptoms change its a sign that your body is in a different phase of repair.

[Theo]

Hello Rozon,

 

You are going through very tough times and I think that most people in this forum can sympathise. I would also like to give my advise because it looks like you are very confused and afraid.

 

I would advise to find a neurologist or psychiatrist that you really trust and ask for help. There are so many lovely people in this website that would like to help you, but they are far away from you, not to mention that they are not specialists in neurology and how the brain functions.

 

If you think that a doctor will not understand you and he will not attribute your symptoms to withdrawal, but rather to a setback and that they'll advise to take medicine for longer, then you have two options: listen to them or not. If I were you, I would listen to them. It's OK to take medicine for a bit longer and then come back for the fight against withdrawal with more arrows in your quiver.

 

If you do not listen to them you just have to keep on fighting and I would suggest that for this fight, you've got to find some allies, because withdrawal is a tough mf. Have you heard of homeopathy? Maybe it will help you. Maybe not.

 

Perhaps go see a psychologist. And also VERY VERY VERY IMPORTANT: Go to the nature. Go walk. It helped me a great great great deal. Obviously not in one day, but it will gradually make you feel revitalised.

 

If you want more help. Send me a PM.

 

Best wishes,

Theo.

[Rozon1]

Hey @Altostrata I can’t make the solution myself. I’ve tried weighing the pills but can’t get an accurate reading on the Gemini scale for 1mg. Anything around that range is iffy and not consonant. Should that be a concern? 

 

[Altostrata]

We've discussed that question before. Can you find the answer?

[Colonial]

Rozon: "...IS it worth even trying to see if reinstatement helps since I won't have that options 3 months from now? IS IT? "

"I think reinstating is my best choice."

"People have told me that I could get worse for reinstating at a low dose. But I’m willing to do that I think. I’m tired of having this endless anxiety. It’s too much for me to handle."

 "I can’t think of cbt or managing at the moment. It’s just survival. It’s not an option at the time. Maybe in the future but my anxiety is too much. "

 

 MSTIMC: You asked me if you'll get better if you just sit around and wait for your symptoms to somehow go away by themselves.  I've been telling you in response after response that's now how it works.  Due to the destabilization of your nervous system, you've fallen into a pattern of habitual catastrophic thinking where you think nothing will make this better, except perhaps reinstating the drug at a lower dose.

 

Rozon:"What’s a doctor going to do? I’m aware it’s WD. We don’t have diagnostic tools to help with autonomic nervous system diagnosis. Just isn’t possible. Why would I need to go else where? I just want comfort damnit. That’s all I want. I DONT want to reinstate. I repeat I don’t want to."

 

And that's the entire problem, what you want is COMFORT,  more than you want to do the hard work of getting better.

You need to get a hold of your self and STOP being so SELFISH.

People have spent endless hours here with You, and you haven't either believed a word anyone said, or made the effort to do what has been suggested.

 

And I think that's because, at least sub consciously, you have already decided that you will NOT get better UNTIL you reinstate, you just don't want to do that.

But your absolutely obsessed with reinstatement. 

You refuse to take responsibility for working on your thinking pattern, because you dont think anything you do, proactively, outside of reinstatement is going to do a damn thing.

And all you have wanted to do, is just  sit here and moan  and complain and have people (effectively waste their time) holding your hands and ENABLE you to do so.

 

If you don't believe any thing other than reinstatement will help, and you refuse to try the methods offered, then either reinstate, or stay miserable.

Your choice.

But be honest with the truth of it, and leave the rest of us out of it...

Tagging people all day long asking the same questions over and over when you have no intention of listening or doing a damn thing anyone suggests.

Your 30 years old, be a Man, and stop having a temper tantrum to the member who has given you more of her time than you obviously deserved...

Since you have no intention of doing anything other than sit here all day and moaning and complaining about how tough your life is.

 

This is a site for people who WANT to get better, and who are willing to do what it takes to achieve that...

If your just here to moan and complain and look for sympathy, find a different site.

Don't sit here all day being emotionally abusive to other people in the same boat as yourself.

There are other people here who WANT to get better, and we all need to move on to helping them.

 

 

 

[Rozon1]

No, we’ve just discussed tapering using the pill and weighing it out. You suggested the bead method but if I go back I’d go back using the pill. The articles states that Effexor might not work with the liquid method. @Altostrata do you think it’s improvement that I’m more self aware and getting some emotion back? Maybe my original anxiety is also coming back. Which would indicate healing? You asked me earlier and I genuinely think this is what’s going on. Aside from the physical symptoms 

[Rozon1]

God have I been acting this crazy? @Colonial I guess I don’t realize it. I’m just not mentally there. Not sure how to take all of this, honestly. I’m being selfish aren’t I by not making attempts to atleast getting better. I thought I was by CTing off the meds. Okay, I’ll try to do this guys. 
 

[Colonial]

 

I realize Your stuck in a negative thinking pattern....

But you need to realize how the way Your acting is negatively affecting other people who have done nothing but try to help you.

And how upsetting that post was to the other member.

Most People on this site aren't healthy trained counselors, their just everyday people suffering just like You are.

And there are many people here much, much sicker than You are right now, Rozon, who need help.

 

I think You've "accidentally" started to use this site as a "crutch", just like another drug, to get by, because You don't "seem" to think You CAN get better.

You really need to decide what you want to do to try to get better, either reinstate or the coping tools, and then work on them.

If You don't believe You CAN, get better, ( which is a belief shared by others about themselves as well), then perhaps You need to move on, for Your own good.

Because all Your doing here is accidentally making yourself sicker by obsessing.

 

You have a daughter who needs Her Father back.  Please think about that.

Even if You don't believe the other methods will work, isn't She an important enough reason for You to try?

 

You already have asked and been told how to reinstate countless times.

If You wish, try it.  If not, then either try some of the tools here, or look for ideas on other websites, lots of great websites to look through.

But if your honest with Yourself?

You already know You have enough here to keep You occupied in proactively trying to get better.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rozon1]

thanks @Colonial.. I think maybe I needed to hear that. My heart dropped when you mentioned my daughter.. Maybe I need to do this. She needs me back and I'm no where near her dad right now...  I'll make a decision soon. Gunna try to sleep tonight on it. Then I'll decide. 

[Happy2Heal]

On 3/15/2020 at 1:36 PM, manymoretodays said:

now Im able to fall back to my sleep which is new its been happening often

this is very good news, you are well on your way to recovery

 

sleep issues are often the most persistent but they do eventually resolve!!
 

I'm glad you're doing better