Rozon1: Effexor withdrawals

[Rozon1]

Just posting an update since I’m considering reinstating and could use possible help. @Altostrata or @brassmonkey will the scale be able to read below 1mg? The reason I ask, is for when I’m ready to taper. I don’t want to find myself at 1mg stabilized and not able to drop lower or have a bad reaction to the liquid form.  Are there scales that do? Would love to know your opinions on the best route to take. I’ve read the literature, alto, but I’m so confused. I can’t afford a liquid compounding as it seems to be too expensive. 
 

also could use help with the dosages as it’s a bit confusing. Sorry to continue asking but I am in desperate need of help.

 

although, my anxiety has come down & my body  temp has seemed to normalize. Weird. 
 

Anxiety isn’t fully gone but noticeable improvement(and I mean noticeable as in I’m not constantly nervous or overthinking.)@brassmonkey what’s your thought on this? MAybe I wait one or two more days before reinstating? Symptoms seem to be getting better. I think 

 

also brass I saw you and Aberdeen’s thread when she ctd off Effexor and went to Paxil. She said she wished she’d reinstated but I know that’s in the past. It was cool to read though. Too bad she doesn’t ever come back with updates. Gives me hope. 

[brassmonkey]

If you are talking about 1mgpw (milligram pill weight) the physical weight of the dose, then yes the scales have problems with that small an amount. If you are meaning 1mgai (Milligram Active Ingredient) the strength of the dose then the fillers in the pill bring the weight up to something the scales can handle.

 

This is being a typical example of Windows and Waves.  Things get worse for a while then they get better with the better periods becoming longer and longer.

 

Aberdeen is fully recovered and living life, and like so many has moved on from here.  For her the switch from Effexor to paxil was very rough and she probably would have been better off staying with the effexor, but she was able to make the switch and eventually things get better and now she is fine.

[Rozon1]

okay, @brassmonkey so, let's say I reinstate at 1mg, how do I go lower than that with the scale when I'm ready to taper to let's say 0.5mg.  I'm so confused. I'm referring to 1 MG(millagram). My scale only measures in grams and the other as I listed above. I am heavily considering reinstating by tomorrow or monday but I'm not entirely sure how the proccess works. I can't do the pharamacy as it's too expensive. Would it be best to do liquid here? But you also said some people don't respond well to liquid. 

 

also, @Altostrata any suggestions? 

[Rozon1]

I know the mods are super busy here so I was hoping to find someone that is good in this area or is currently tapering. I'm probably going to reinstate at 1mg of effexor after 3 months off. 

 

I currently have the tablets 37.5MG Instant Venlafaxine. I have a gemini Scale and do not know how to calculate a pill at 1mg or even lower using this method.

 

Could anyone walk me through this as I am completely lost. Thank you!

Edited February 17, 2020 by manymoretodays
merged from tapering forum back here, to introduction

[Rozon1]

sorry guys, it's just time sensitive since the 3 month mark will be on wednesday. Any help would be nice. Thank you! ❤️

[brassmonkey]

You need to find the average weight of your pills. Divide that number by 37.5.  The result will be the weight in mgpw (Milligrams Pill Weight) of a dose that will have a strength of 1mgai (Milligram Active Ingredient) which is what you are looking for.  If you wanted a dose of .5mgai you would divide the result in half.

 

Your scales weigh to the milligram. You set them to the g setting for gram.  If you look at the display with nothing on the scale it should read 0.000  The first 0 is grams then a decimal point the second 0 is decigrams, the third 0 is centigrams and the fourth 0 is milligrams. So a display of 0.001 would be 1mg a display of 0.010 would be 10mg and 0.100 would be 100mg. Some scales will leave off the trailing 0s because they aren't needed mathematically.

 

We can't tell you what method will be best for you, and we can't tell you for sure what is going to happen in the future.  We have already told you everything we know, so now it's up to you to make a decision.

[Rozon1]

Okay so @brassmonkey so I use the scale for 1mg until I need to go below that? Then switch to liquid or just stabilize on 1mg then jump off? 

[brassmonkey]

That is getting into "end game tapering" which is a bit different from regular tapering.  Depending on the weight of your source pills the scales should be good down to 0.5 or 0.25mgai.  From that point it is common to use a combination of the scales and visually dividing the powder to get as close to the dose as possible.  It also means that for the last few reductions the decrease will be more like 50%. By that time you will be looking to jump off so the bigger reductions shouldn't be a problem. 

 

Making the switch liquid for the last few reductions would cause more problems than it's worth.  If the taper has been done correctly the last several reductions are pretty much a nonevent symptom wise.

Edited February 18, 2020 by Gridley

[Rozon1]

Thank you @brassmonkey. My last question is I don’t have the plate my scale came with. I’ll probably order another one. Can I lick up the medicine from the plate then wipe it off with a alcohol wipe or do I poor it in my mouth? What’s the best way to consume the medicine

[brassmonkey]

I would order a replacement and use that. Put a folded piece of paper on it and use the paper to handle the powder.  

 

Putting the powder into empty gel caps is the best method to taking each dose.

[Rozon1]

@brassmonkey why putting it in a gel cap if you don't mind me asking? Just to make sure I ingest it all? Or would just taking it orally from the scale itself would suffice? 

 

Also, today I had another good window. Anxiety has lessoned for the most part. Had EMOTIONS again today! It was nice! I'm seeing improvement! God I hope I don't make the wrong choice lol

[manymoretodays]

On 2/15/2020 at 3:29 PM, Rozon1 said:

I know the mods are super busy here so I was hoping to find someone that is good in this area or is currently tapering. I'm probably going to reinstate at 1mg of effexor after 3 months off. 

 

I currently have the tablets 37.5MG Instant Venlafaxine. I have a gemini Scale and do not know how to calculate a pill at 1mg or even lower using this method.

 

Could anyone walk me through this as I am completely lost. Thank you!

 

Hi Rozon1,

I moved this one back here to your introduction.

We are giving you all that we have Rozon1.

Please try, try hard to read through some of the links, as well as what we have offered.  You've had member input and a couple of us moderators give input too!

Is there anyone on the ground(locally), who might help you sift through some of the information now?

 

And then, as an internet forum site........you should know, that, we can only do our best to get to members in a certain time frame, and have to prioritize sometimes.  So, it may also be to your advantage, to learn patience, give us all(members and mods alike) up to 24 hours to respond.  And try to find some of your own answers from the information that is given to you. 

 

Okay.  Best.

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited February 17, 2020 by manymoretodays

[Rozon1]

Hey @manymoretodaysi tried deleting that topic but couldn’t do it. Thank you so much !

[brassmonkey]

Gel caps are clean neat and easy to store and handle.  Any other method risks losing some of the dose and making things inaccurate, but any way of swallowing is is workable.

 

Glad to hear that you're feeling better today.

[Rozon1]

Yo @brassmonkey thank you so much for your replies! Also, @Altostrata watched your video today. You’re a brave woman and I appreciate you and everything you do! @Happy2Heal also thanks for your encouragement. 
 

IVE got ONE day to decide if I should reinstate!!!! Although my symptoms have improved over the past threee weeks I still fight with the anxiety and it’s killing me. Sometimes I’m calm but I always have the inner restlessness! I just want it to go away. Everyone says they see improvements by the 1 year mark but damn I don’t know if I reinstate what it might hold. Do you guys think I’ll heal either way I decide to go? 
 

[Rozon1]

also, I think my vagus nerve has been damaged, @Altostrata

[Rozon1]

Today is the day I decide.. tomorrow will be 3 months. @brassmonkey @Altostrata I assume I’m still within the timeframe, correct?

 

also, symptoms have become less intense but still persist which will most likely leave me to reinstate. I’ll give it 7 days. If at 7 days I don’t feel better or relief, I assume I can just CD correct?

[Rozon1]

Well my scale only reads down to 1mg @brassmonkey.. I can’t get it to read below that. It’s the Gemini scale. What do you suggest I do once I’m done with the 1mg to scale down? Liquid? 

[Gridley]

On 2/16/2020 at 3:33 PM, brassmonkey said:

That is getting into "end game tapering" which is a bit different from regular tapering.  Depending on the weight of your source pills the scales should be good down to 0.5 or 0.25mgai.  From that point it is common to use a combination of the scales and visually dividing the powder to get as close to the dose as possible.  It also means that for the last few reductions the decrease will be more like 50%. By that time you will be looking to jump off so the bigger reductions shouldn't be a problem. 

 

Making the switch liquid for the last few reductions would cause more problems than it's worth.  If the taper has been done correctly the last several reductions are pretty much a nonevent symptom wise.

 

Rozon, Brassmonkey has addressed this previously.  Above is his advice.  

[Rosetta]

@Rozon1 I’m going to answer your question on your thread so that the moderators can see what I say.

 

I can see that you are terrified.   Am so very sorry that you are going through this.  Your mind is racing and you can’t make a decision.  Please know that a big part of your inability to decide is due to WD.  That may not help, but I remember feeling that way.  Had I known about reinstatement in time I think I would have 5 pages on my thread agonizing over what to do.

 

No one can promise you that reinstatement is going to suddenly cure your anxiety, insomnia or physical symptoms.  If it helps you it will help you lessen those symptoms.  Over time your symptoms will wax and wane, and you may not be able to see the difference very clearly without some outside perspective such as a roommate or a journal.  WD has a sneaky way of making us feel that everything is bad, will always be bad and will never get better.  Only during a window can we see improvements in our condition.  However, if you keep a journal of your symptoms after reinstatement you should be able to see whether it is making some difference (and whether it should be stopped for some reason.)

 

You said on my thread that you were afraid of prolonging this process.  I think that, for many cases, the idea that reinstatement will prolong the process is a misconception.  The healing process takes as long as it takes for each person.  In terms of time, reinstatement of 1 mg and the tapering time for that dose makes no significant difference.  In terms of quality of life the hope is that reinstatement will be the difference between whether you are struggling through just barely living or suffering in a less severe and less life threatening way for that period of time.  Do not look at it as if the tapering period will prolong the time it takes to get back to living a decently bearable life.  The tapering period is not tacked on to the beginning or end of healing.  It is a part of the time it takes to get to a state in which you can function day to day without debilitating anxiety or insomnia.

 

Yes, knowing what I know now, I would have tried to reinstate if I had known about it early enough.   Going from 150 mg to 0 in 2 months was a horrible mistake.  If there was a chance that reinstatement would have made this experience less horrifying I would have tried.

 

In order to do it safely and not make things worse you must be able to control your anxiety well enough to follow the moderators advice and wait for them to answer you.  Never act on your own.  If you start with a tiny dose as the moderators advise the risk of making your condition worse is much smaller.  After that, do not ignore their advice to hold to that dose even if you think you are not seeing any benefit.  More is not better.  More can be dangerous.  You may not see the benefit, but you may, in fact, reap that benefit.  Due to the fact that WD symptoms get worse then better then worse then better some people who try reinstatement get very impatient and start bouncing their doses all around, up and down.  That is the absolute worst thing you can do!!!  Your system needs stability.  It is better to leave your dose the same “too” long than change it too soon.  If you get no answer from a Mod on whether you should raise the dose just hold and wait.

 

The idea of reinstatement is to make WD “bearable.”  Bearable is a very subjective concept.  I’m not sure many people find WD to be bearable even if they are in far better shape than I was.   They feel worse than they have ever felt in their lives.  They can’t compare their misery to mine having never walked in my shoes.  Many people who reinstate make the mistake of raising the reinstatement dose again and again or by too much or — this is the worst — they get frustrated and jump back to the dose they had CT’d or try a new drug (often on the advise of a doctor).  By doing that they can “kindle” their very fragile immune systems and make WD worse.  My system was kindled after my doctor prescribed Trazodone.  The last thing it needed after my rapid taper was a different drug and at a high dose at that.  If you are willing to follow the moderator’s advice reinstatement can work.  If you are currently the type to become impatient with and distrustful of people who try to help you when it seems their advice is not panning out, you may be better off staying away from the drug.  WD is a catch 22 because the anxiety it produces can derail a careful, conservatively paced reinstatement with one change in dose upward or downward.  You cannot bounce the dose around.  You need to find the fortitude to deal with that aspect of the situation.

If you are willing to follow the moderator’s advice reinstatement can work.  If you are the type (or have become the type due to WD) to become impatient with and distrustful of people who try to help you when it seems their advice is not panning out, you may be better off staying away from the drug altogether.

 

Wishing you the best of luck

[Rozon1]

@Rosetta THANK you for responding. How long did your WD symptoms last until you started seeing improvement?

[Guest]

I read your post and sympathize. I was on Effexor 75mg for 12 years and quit cold turkey, My withdrawal symptoms where somewhat different than yours, although I did have anxiety, but nonetheless it was brutal. I did manage to get past it after about 2.5 months. Time went slow and it was torturous but it did pass. I've been off it for 4 years now and am doing fine without it. Good Luck!

[Rozon1]

Today is the last day and I could use some critical advice. @brassmonkey you told me most people don’t do well with the change to liquid. So what do I do once I reinstate to 1mg and I stabilize? How do I get below 1mg with the scale? Mine doesn’t read that low 

[brassmonkey]

I've already explained this.  When you weigh a dose you are measuring two things: the weight of the active ingredient (mgai) plus the weight of the fillers. So if you want a dose of 1mgai it will weigh much more than that on the scales. By the time you get down to a reading of 1mgpw on the scale you will be at a dose of  anywhere from 0.08mgai to 0.1mgai depending on your medication.  Each pill from each manufacturer will have a different AIC (Active Ingredient Concentration) which is the ratio between the Active Ingredient and the Fillers and needs to be calculated before you can determine exactly how small you can go using the scale.

 

I have  not said the most people have trouble transitioning to liquid. Rather I have said the some people have problems and the transition needs to be done carefully to avoid them.  In a few cases people don't tolerate the liquid and have to retransition back to using the tablets.

[Rosetta]

You can’t look at my case and think that your trajectory will be the same.  That’s true for any other case, but my circumstances are fairly unique, I think.  My worst symptoms came on shortly after the honeymoon period that occurred after I quit.  I had no idea what they were.  I know now that I been in WD for years and years due to inconsistent dosing.  Quite frankly nearly the entire time I took ADs I forgot to take my pills frequently.  When my baby was born 5 1/2 years before I quit ADs my med was switched overnight from 40 mg of Celexa to 10 mg of Zoloft.  That’s when WD began to seriously affect my life.  It took a few years for the dose to creep slowly up to 150 mg.  So, when I quit, I was all ready severely kindled.  Trazodone was the final straw.  I quit in February.  My worst period lasted from about July to January.  So, I guess there was improvement after about 5-6 months.  It did not feel like improvement to me.  Objectively, there was improvement in individual symptoms, but my quality of life did not improve for a very, very long time.  

[Rozon1]

Hey @brassmonkey so let’s say I stay on the tablet under 1mg do people typically stabilize on that not knowing the exact amount you’re getting? Just want to make sure I can stabilize.

 

 

also @Rosetta thanks! I’m aware everyone’s different. I am also kindled before I cold turkeyed. My symptoms have decreased in intensity and some have gotten slightly better. Which gives me hope but I can’t imagine my body healing without the help of the drug. My symptoms also emerged shortly after a got off the drug. Roughly a month after to be exact. 
 

@Eligibly how long would you say the withdrawls lasted in total before you started to feel better?

[Guest]

The withdrawals started to subside after about 1.5 months and where pretty much gone by 2.5 months. i had a lot of brain and body zaps. Cold sweats and hot flashes. It was not a pleasant experience.

[Rozon1]

@Eligibly wow I’m glad you’re off of it. 

[Guest]

Thanks Rozon1. I am currently battling a Zyprexa withdrawal. My symptoms have improved but the insomnia is harsh, about an hour a night, if that. I barely sleep and I don't know when things will get back to normal. There are numerous people on the internet with this problem. I've read people that have quit this stuff without any problems and others that get only 5 hours a night after 10 months. The unknown is unnerving.

 

Good luck in your attempt to get yourself off Effexor. I hope it works out for you.

 

I wrote more about my effexor experience here:

 

[Rozon1]

@Eligibly i've heard you were diagnosed w/ schizo. How are you feeling? How is your insomnia?

[brassmonkey]

Yes, people stabilize with out knowing the exact dose they are taking.  Consistency is the real key. Pick a dose and stay on it and stability will happen eventually.

[Rozon1]

One more thing @brassmonkey. My symptoms have decreased in intensity lately so I’m still considering it but I just want to ask one thing. I’ve been reading about the autonomic nervous system symptoms. Do they subside typically when people reinstate? Like the bodies temperature disregulation, insomnia, etc?

[brassmonkey]

The really frustrating thing about working with ADWD is that it is different for each individual person.  Some people will have a horrible time with tiny changes while someone else, even a relative, won't have any problems at all. Our bodies have been chemically altered by these drugs and it has affected every part of them. Every cell, every system has been touched and needs to sort itself out and heal. This is a huge undertaking for the body and has to be done in fits and starts, do a bit of work here, then do a bit there in an attempt to keep all the systems in some sort of balance.

 

A small decrease or increase just throws confusion into the system that the body then has to deal with. We do decreases in an attempt to help the body heal from the affects of being drugged.  We do small increases to try and give the body some relief from everything it is going through. There is no magic bullet that will fix everything and no real way of knowing what is going to happen when we make a change.

 

The people who make the drugs don't even know how they work or what they actually do, so in turn all we have is the experience of others to try and guide us. I can't give specific guarantees about what will happen, except that if you slowly and carefully reduce your dose eventually your body will return to its normal state.  What happens along  the way is what happens and we deal with it as best as we can. 

[Rozon1]

Great point @brassmonkey. I’m just wondering when people reinstate this late out or they typically only get relief or do some of them see some of their withdrawls completely go away? You’ve been here much longer than I have to probably have an immediate thought on it. I’m 3 months and 1 week out(past the three month mark) and I’m unsure if it’ll even benefit me. I just know my body wasn’t this messed up on the drug so I naturally think it’s going to make me better.

 

although my Symptoma have decreased in intensity they’re still there(constipation, insomnia, and some restlessness). It’s hard for me to believe my body will be better from this a year from now if I just stick to the course. My body just always feels “on” and it’s quite annoying. I never feel tired, etc. it’s like my body is doing the opposite of when I was on the drug. I was constantly tired on the drug, I could sleep. Always felt relaxed mostly. Now it’s just the opposite and I wonder if my autonomic nervous system will catch up. It just doesn’t seem like it’s making much progress but maybe I’m wrong

[brassmonkey]

You're going to have symptoms no matter what you do. Right now you are having bad symptoms because of the CT. Your body is very confused and trying very hard to heal.  It idea behind reinstatement is to take the edge off of the symptoms so the person is a bit more comfortable while that healing is taking place.  Even with a slow careful taper there will be symptoms, usually mild, but sometimes they will get pretty bad.  Once a taper is complete and there are no longer drugs in ones system there can still be waves of symptoms as the body continues to heal.  Once the body has worked things out the symptoms finally go away.  It's all up to the individual to learn as much as they can and then make a decision as to which way they want to go. We've told you all we can a number of times.  Asking the same question again and again is not going to change the answer.

[Rozon1]

sometimes @brassmonkey putting into a certain wording makes more sense and I think it depends on where the person is in withdrawal. I think that's a fair assessment. You guys have been patient w/ me but I think you understand that when I'm freaking out it's almost if like nothing makes sense. I hope that's somewhat understandable and I appreciate everything you guys have done!