Mimi79: Will I survive?

[Mimi79]

@Shep

The reason why I am so afraid to updose too much is that I am afraid that It will prolong my taper and put me in more misery. Up dosing is like a failure for me. 
Maybe you can reassure me on this point, maybe I don’t understand why I shoul do this. 
But there is one thing I see, each time I up the dose, the day after I am more dependent, I can’t function with the previous dose I was taking.

[Gridley]

9 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

have the feeling that my life is over and that I will lose my job... 

It is much better to assume you'll stabilize, that you'll be fine and that you won't lose your job.  Your system perceives what you're feeling all the way down to the cell level and makes it more likely that you'll become what you're thinking and will make come true what you fear most.  It's not a pollyanna thing to think positively.  Energy follows thought, reality mirror your feelings, and you would be well-served to think this will work out fine.

 

Could you try splitting your dose in half and taking each dose 12 hours apart and see how you feel with that?  Very careful and slow dose changes will help lead you to a dose you can stabilize on.

 

Yes, I think it is not only possible but very probable that you will stabilize.  But it's important not to panic and do things very gradually and deliberately.  Go back through the suggestions made here by Shep, ChessieCat and others and make a plan.

 

My situation was different from yours.  I was on 3 drugs (see my signature below).  I tapered Imipramine too fast and started feeling very anxious.  I decided the best hing for me to do was split my dose into three doses (you can try two if you're more comfortable with that and the anxiety ceased after a few days as I got used to the split dose.  I do know that Ativan has a 12-hour half life so it makes sense that after 12 hours the effect of the drug has gone way down.  Splitting your dose may alleviate that.  You could take half your dose (which would be 0.1mg) in the evening and the other half (o.1mg) 12 hours later see how that works.

 

[Mimi79]

@Gridley

Do you think I need to move the half dose one hour at a time each day? Or I can directly do it?

[Gridley]

7 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

Or I can directly do it?

I think you can directly do it.  What you're after is keeping a constant amount of the dose in your body all day and night.

[Shep]

18 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

No, I don’t take it anymore. I finished the box 2 weeks ago.

 

Mimi, when did you start taking Valerian? 

 

The reason I'm asking is because you posted this back in January:

 

On 1/1/2021 at 7:17 PM, Mimi79 said:

It’s been 7 weeks now that I’m in this wave. This is far the worst since a year and I know it has been triggered by my attempt to start my taper. Symptoms are relentless, first I had anhedonia, then Intrusive thoughts, and now for the last 7 days, I’m in a thick depression. And it doesn’t seem to abate. I had some better days during the week, but the depression feelings was never far away.

 

You mentioned that z-drugs and benzos cause you "depression" years ago when you were on these drugs.  Did this depression back in January coincide with starting or changing the Valerian supplement?

 

Valerian works on the same GABA receptors as benzos. If it wasn't Valerian that caused this depression and you weren't taking Ativan (or any other benzo) back then (or at least, regularly enough to become dependent), then this feeling of depression may not be exclusively from the benzo but a withdrawal symptom from the AD. 

 

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

But I know that a part of this depression comes from the fact that I feel trapped in a hopeless situation. I am so, so mad at me to have take this pills. I cannot forgive myself about it. It is very hard to accept.

 

And then there's the symptoms that are caused by negative thought-streams. It's good you're picking up on this pattern because that's something you can work on now and find relief. Please see:

 

Blaming yourself for mistakes? Try this.
 
Shame, guilt, and self-criticism

 

It's important not to go into a spiral:

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

 

12 hours ago, Gridley said:

It is much better to assume you'll stabilize, that you'll be fine and that you won't lose your job.  Your system perceives what you're feeling all the way down to the cell level and makes it more likely that you'll become what you're thinking and will make come true what you fear most.  It's not a pollyanna thing to think positively.  Energy follows thought, reality mirror your feelings, and you would be well-served to think this will work out fine.

 

@GridleyThis is brilliant. And so true. 

 

18 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

What is the goal to find the good dose? 
Is it to be totally symptoms free, or to be able to sleep and make it through the day?

 

You may not be symptom free, but if you can get enough sleep to be functional and either take a daytime Ativan dose or use non-drug coping skills to handle any interdose withdrawal, you'll be fine.

 

This is the level of functionality you want to achieve, which Brassmonkey refers to as "withdrawal normal":

 

WD Normal

[Mimi79]

Hi @Shep

Thank you for your help.

2 hours ago, Shep said:

Mimi, when did you start taking Valerian? 

I don’t remember, but I was using it more regularly in January and February.

 

Yes I know I can try to stop my emotional spiral, it will help.

But I am still in a stupor that I did this awful mistake of taking Ativan and becoming dependent.

I have a lot of difficulties to forgive me this mistake.

I am afraid of not being able to taper the Ativan, because I have so much difficulties to taper Mirtazapine. I don’t want to be stuck on it forever. 
I don’t feel good when I’m taking Benzo. Even when my symptoms are under control, I always feel a little groggy, tired and down. 
 

I know it is not a good idea, but sometimes I wonder if a C/T would be a lesser evil than taking Ativan over a long period of time. 

I have so much doubt, like I don’t know which path is the best for me...

 

Thank you for your tremendous help. 
 

Mimi79

 

[Mimi79]

11 hours ago, Shep said:

You may not be symptom free, but if you can get enough sleep to be functional and either take a daytime Ativan dose or use non-drug coping skills to handle any interdose withdrawal, you'll be fine.

@Shep

So if I understand, I can’t avoid some interdose withdrawal. So if I keep taking the same doses with some interdose withdrawal, after awhile, it will lessen and I will be able to taper?

[Mimi79]

@Gridley

I wonder, if I find a dose pattern that allow me to have a good sleep and make my day, even if I have some interdose withdrawal, if I hold some days-weeks, do those symptoms will lessen in time?

I want to encourage myself that I will be able to taper one day and I want to understand how can I know I am able to taper.

Thank you.

[Gridley]

12 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

@Gridley

I wonder, if I find a dose pattern that allow me to have a good sleep and make my day, even if I have some interdose withdrawal, if I hold some days-weeks, do those symptoms will lessen in time?

I want to encourage myself that I will be able to taper one day and I want to understand how can I know I am able to taper.

Thank you.

It will take some tweaking to see the best dose for you to minimize interdose withdrawal.  I had to play around with the dose a little when I changed from once a day to 3X a day, easing it higher just a little bit at a time a couple of times until I reached a dose that pretty much eliminated interdose withdrawal for me with Ativan.

I emphasize, a little bit at a time.

 

So, yes, I believe you can get interdose withdrawal down to a minimal or even nonexistent level.  The trick is to make your dose increase tiny tiny tiny tiny until you find the right dosage for you.

 

Then you can taper, which is right where I am now, and which I think you definitely will be able to do.  

[Mimi79]

@Gridley

Today, I have begun to really try find the good fine tuning. 
I have taken 0,05mgai at 10:00 am and 0,18mg at 6:00pm.  

My total dose for the day is 0,23mg, so it is a little more than the previous day. 
My symptoms started to be very intense around 4:30pm. 
Tomorrow, I will try to take the « am » dose at 11:00, because when I took it this morning, I was feeling fine, no symptoms yet. I have to fill this gap.

Maybe I could take some dose from the evening dose to the am dose. Will see.

 

This is not easy to live. I cannot take care very much of my kids, nor my house. I have the feeling I am in another world.

I am free from work for 2 weeks. 

I have this awful feeling that my life has fallen  apart in those last 3 weeks. My husband doesn’t  understand what is happening to me. 
I feel so desperate, don’t feel any joy or pleasure. It is very hard. Do you think if I can find the good dose pattern those symptoms will abate a bit? 
 

Thank you so much for your help!

 

Mimi79

[Shep]

11 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I have taken 0,05mgai at 10:00 am and 0,18mg at 6:00pm.  

My total dose for the day is 0,23mg, so it is a little more than the previous day. 
My symptoms started to be very intense around 4:30pm. 
Tomorrow, I will try to take the « am » dose at 11:00, because when I took it this morning, I was feeling fine, no symptoms yet. I have to fill this gap.

Maybe I could take some dose from the evening dose to the am dose. Will see.

 

It looks like you're getting close, Mimi. 

 

You may want to bring in a third dose as Gridley wisely mentioned, although be mindful if you take it from the evening dose, you don't mess up your sleep. 

 

How many hours are you sleeping? 

 

 

[Mimi79]

@Shep

My sleep is good. Usually, I have an easy 7-8 hours sleep. Sometimes, I can have some insomnia, but it is rare. I wasn’t taking Ativan for sleep issues, I was taking it to relieve the bad anxiety from mirtazapine WD.

I have to increase my dose, because this morning, I feel very anxious and tense. 
If I split in 3 doses, do they have to be almost identical? 

[Shep]

12 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

My sleep is good. Usually, I have an easy 7-8 hours sleep. Sometimes, I can have some insomnia, but it is rare. I wasn’t taking Ativan for sleep issues, I was taking it to relieve the bad anxiety from mirtazapine WD.

I have to increase my dose, because this morning, I feel very anxious and tense. 
If I split in 3 doses, do they have to be almost identical? 

 

What do you mean by anxiety? Is it akathisia? Are you constantly moving and can't sit still? Or are you dealing with anxious thoughts? 

 

 

[Mimi79]

@Shep

2 minutes ago, Shep said:

 

What do you mean by anxiety? Is it akathisia? Are you constantly moving and can't sit still? Or are you dealing with anxious thoughts? 

I have a lot of difficulties to describe it, as I’ve rarely had this symptom.

It is a kind of inner nervosity, that get stronger as time pass. It is very physical, not like true anxiety. When it intensify, it came with a feeling of head pressure. I am able to sit still, but I have a general sense of feeling bad. Is it Akathisia?

 

[Gridley]

14 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

if I can find the good dose pattern those symptoms will abate a bit? 

Yes, that is the key, to find a good dose pattern.  When I was taking split doses of Ativan, each dose was the same amount so that the amount of the drug in my blood stream remained constant (no ups and downs).

[Mimi79]

Just now, Gridley said:

Yes, that is the key, to find a good dose pattern.  When I was taking split doses of Ativan, each dose was the same amount so that the amount of the drug in my blood stream remained constant (no ups and downs)

@Gridley

Thank you so much.

I have a lot of difficulties to figure out how I can achieve that. 
I am afraid that if I lower my evening dose, I won’t be able to sleep all the night. 
I don’t know how to achieve this. 
If I find a two-doses pattern that works, can I after split this those in 3? I have the feeling it will take me months to find the good pattern...

[Gridley]

26 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

can I after split this those in 3?

Either two doses or three can work.  Just stay with it and you will find your pattern.

[Mimi79]

Thanks @Gridley

I don’t know if it is a good plan, but if I can find a daytime dose that works, Maybe I will be able later to split it in two, if needed.

I’ve seen some people splitting their dose in 4 or more! It it really necessary?

[Shep]

1 hour ago, Mimi79 said:

@Shep

My sleep is good. Usually, I have an easy 7-8 hours sleep. Sometimes, I can have some insomnia, but it is rare. I wasn’t taking Ativan for sleep issues, I was taking it to relieve the bad anxiety from mirtazapine WD.

 

 

Please see the below. It looks like you started taking (and increasing the frequency) of the benzo due to mirtazapine withdrawal-induced insomnia. I know when you're in the midst of the storm, it can be hard to sort these things out. But do you feel you would be able to sleep without the Ativan? Did you have insomnia before getting interdose symptoms from the Ativan? 

 

 

 

On 3/8/2021 at 6:34 PM, Mimi79 said:

2 weeks ago, my anxiety increased a lot, and during this week, I took Ativan 0,5mg at 3 occasions (Monday, Tuesday and Friday) and suddenly, that was it! I was having symptoms of interdose (big anxiety and nervosity, insomnia). It happened suddenly, within a week! With these 3 pills!!
The week before, I haven’t took any and was fine. You cannot imagine how I am mad and angry at me, because I knew the risk. I’ve been totally surprised by the rapidity of it.

Since the last 7 days (after I realized that I was hooked), I’ve been trying to find a steady dose to take everyday. I tried to take 0,18mg only per day (at night), but I seem to have symptoms that increased during the day. Maybe this dose is too small. The last couple of days have been very hard, I’ve had nervosity, insomnia, anxiety and even dark depression. I have the feeling that since I began taking it everyday (to stabilize), my mind and body are falling appart. I’ve never felt that bad of all my life! 

 

 

[Mimi79]

1 minute ago, Shep said:

 

Please see the below. It looks like you started taking (and increasing the frequency) of the benzo due to mirtazapine withdrawal-induced insomnia. I know when you're in the midst of the storm, it can be hard to sort these things out. But do you feel you would be able to sleep without the Ativan? Did you have insomnia before getting interdose symptoms from the Ativan?

@Shep

Thank you so much for your help.

I know I took few times Ativan to help my sleep, but in the last 2 months, almost all the Ativan I’ve taken were to alleviate my strong anxiety and intrusive thoughts from mirtazapine withdrawal. 
I’ve calculated that since December, I’ve took maybe 15 to 20 0,5mg Ativan, most part for anxiety. I took it maybe once or twice for insomnia. 
I know I am able to sleep without Ativan, but I am afraid to have this inner nervosity feeling that arise in interdose, and when this symptom arise, I cannot sleep properly. It wakes me up, like this morning.

This is why I think I need a higher dose in the evening, to cover all the night.

[Mimi79]

8 minutes ago, Shep said:

Did you have insomnia before getting interdose symptoms from the Ativan? 

No, Sleep wasn’t an issue for me. Of course it could happen sometime, but I was sleeping well almost of the time.

 

[Shep]

50 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

I know I am able to sleep without Ativan, but I am afraid to have this inner nervosity feeling that arise in interdose, and when this symptom arise, I cannot sleep properly. It wakes me up, like this morning.

This is why I think I need a higher dose in the evening, to cover all the night.

 

What time did it wake you up? How much sleep did you get? 

 

15 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I have taken 0,05mgai at 10:00 am and 0,18mg at 6:00pm.  

My total dose for the day is 0,23mg, so it is a little more than the previous day. 
My symptoms started to be very intense around 4:30pm. 

 

It looks like you weren't getting interdose withdrawal for 22 hours after taking the drug, so I wouldn't increase the dose for this on the off chance it might happen. 

 

What non-drug coping skills are you using to deal with the daytime anxiety? 

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Mimi79 said:

I’ve seen some people splitting their dose in 4 or more! It it really necessary?

Four isn't necessary.  Some people suggest 2 doses Ativan 12 hours apart.  Three doses eight hours apart worked fine for me.

[Mimi79]

45 minutes ago, Shep said:

What time did it wake you up? How much sleep did you get?

I took 0,18mg at 6:00 pm and I started to feel inner nervousness  around 6:30am. 
I slept from 11:00pm till 6:30am.

 

This inner nervosity  or inner restlessness, I don’t know how to describe it, is not like the usual anxiety I am used to. It invades my body and my mind and I can’t focus or think when I am in this state. I don’t know what could help me. It is a constant feeling, the only thing that remove this feeling is to take another dose of Ativan. It is not like usual anxiety that can be calm down with breathing or soft exercise. I try to distract, but it is so difficult as it is a very overwhelming feeling, both physical and mental.

[Mimi79]

@Shep 
I read that Ativan is a pretty tough drug to taper. I need some hope. Is it really harder to taper it than other drugs?

Do I will have to crossover with diazepam?

[Mimi79]

@brassmonkey

I have a question regarding the Gimini Scale.

I am trying to cut my tiny pills of Ativan, who have a weight of 50mgpw. I have to weight pieces of 5 to 8 mgpw. I am at the limit of the precision of the scale, and it is very difficult to have it accurate. 
Sometimes, when I put my tiny crumbs of pill in the scale plate, it even doesn’t see it.

Is there a tips to help weighting those tiny amounts with more precision?

 

Thank you so much!

Mimi

[Mimi79]

I don’t know why, I have this constant thought that I will never be able to recover and taper the Ativan. It seems to me impossible...

[brassmonkey]

Put the calibration weight on the pan before you turn the scales on to put the weight on and press TARE. This will put the scales in to the middle of their range and make them more stable.

[Mimi79]

47 minutes ago, brassmonkey said:

Put the calibration weight on the pan before you turn the scales on to put the weight on and press TARE. This will put the scales in to the middle of their range and make them more stable.

@brassmonkey I just want to be sure I understand, I put one of the calibration weight on the scale before I turn it on? 
Do I remove the weight before I press TARE? Sorry, English is not my native language.

[Mimi79]

@Gridley

when I will be stable one the same dose everyday, will my CNS gain some stability? I have all sort of symptoms these days, like intrusive thoughts (I already had those before Ativan). Before withdrawing my Ativan, I suppose I have to be stable. I hope I will be able to achieve that. I feel so weird on this drug. 

Thank you for your help!

[Gridley]

29 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

when I will be stable one the same dose everyday, will my CNS gain some stability?

Unfortunately there is no way to predict the timeline for stabilization.

 

In the meantime, don't forget the earlier recommendations about magnesium and omegas.  Try them one at a time and starting at a low dose.  Many members find them calming.

 

It is good to be stable before beginning a taper, but sometimes that isn't possible.  If you feel you need to go off the Ativan, don't forget to taper no more than 10% of your current dose every four weeks.  

Edited March 12, 2021 by Gridley

[Mimi79]

17 minutes ago, Gridley said:

It is good to be stable before beginning a taper, but sometimes that isn't possible.  If you feel you need to go off the Ativan, don't forget to taper no more than 10% of your current dose every four weeks.

Do you think I should wait a bit before tapering? 
And tapering Benzo is it the same as tapering AD? Symptoms arise then lessen?

Our CNS is able to adapt to the decrease?

[brassmonkey]

There are two ways to use the calibration weight to improve the performance of your scales.

 

1. Place the calibration weight on the scale and turn it on. The readout should say 0.000g. Leave the weight in place on the scale and weigh your dose as usual.

 

2. Turn the scale on. Place the calibration weight on the scale. The readout will show the weight of the calibration weight. Press TARE. The readout will show 0.000g. Leave the weight in place on the scale and weigh your dose as usual.

 

Either way works just as well.

[Shep]

21 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

@Shep 
I read that Ativan is a pretty tough drug to taper. I need some hope. Is it really harder to taper it than other drugs?

Do I will have to crossover with diazepam?

 

No one drug is more hard to taper than another. You're giving Ativan too much power. Ativan may be harder for one person than it is for another because that person is more dependent on it. You may or may not be more dependent than another person. 

 

Diazepam has a side effect profile that for many people, causes fatigue and depression symptoms. If you're already experiencing that on Ativan, diazepam is probably not a good choice for you. 

 

22 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I know I am able to sleep without Ativan, but I am afraid to have this inner nervosity feeling that arise in interdose, and when this symptom arise, I cannot sleep properly. It wakes me up, like this morning.

This is why I think I need a higher dose in the evening, to cover all the night.

 

22 hours ago, Shep said:

What time did it wake you up? How much sleep did you get? 

 

21 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I took 0,18mg at 6:00 pm and I started to feel inner nervousness  around 6:30am. 
I slept from 11:00pm till 6:30am.

 

Mimi, I'm going to be brutally honest here because you are really setting yourself up for failure. You are advocating going on a higher Ativan dose after getting 7.5 hours of sleep. Most people on this forum would do anything to get that much sleep, especially on a regular basis. 

 

If you continue to seek out drugs to give you this much stability and you aren't able to use non-drug coping skills for daytime symptoms, you are playing a dangerous game of "withdrawal symptom Whac-A-Mole", meaning you are trading off helping one symptom by creating other symptoms that will pop up. You may end up with less anxiety during the day, but you may end up with insomnia by playing around with benzos. 

 

 

21 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

This inner nervosity  or inner restlessness, I don’t know how to describe it, is not like the usual anxiety I am used to. It invades my body and my mind and I can’t focus or think when I am in this state. I don’t know what could help me. It is a constant feeling, the only thing that remove this feeling is to take another dose of Ativan. It is not like usual anxiety that can be calm down with breathing or soft exercise. I try to distract, but it is so difficult as it is a very overwhelming feeling, both physical and mental.

 

Instead of trying to "remove this feeling," it's best to learn to live with this feeling. As you've noted, you feel better in the evenings. Try to get as much done in the evenings as you can and then rest more during the daytime. You mentioned being off work for two weeks, so this gives you time to rest when you need to. 

 

I'm going back to something you wrote last month:

 

On 2/22/2021 at 7:57 PM, Mimi79 said:

The answer is no, I’ve never made a reduction when having symptoms. I am too afraid of worsening my condition

to do this. Since the beginning of this wave, I’ve only updose a little bit.

 

I think you're expecting to get through this without symptoms and not learning the lessons that waves teach us. 

 

If you're open to learning from your waves, they are teaching you that you need to learn some mindfulness techniques so you can watch intrusive, anxious thoughts float away like clouds in the sky and not engage in them. Intrusive thoughts are like having annoying neighbors. Learning to ignore them is a powerful skill, but it doesn't happen overnight. It takes work and practice. 

 

I would spend some time going through links here:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

You can find videos by Claire Weekes and Jon Kabat-Zinn on YouTube and learn some very powerful techniques. You mention that English is not your native language, so please seek out mindfullness speakers in your native language. 

 

Another lesson that waves teach is they are transient. Yes, many of us go through very long periods of time where we're struggling, but continuing to add supplements like Valerian and drugs like benzos and then tweak them obsessively is going to extend your withdrawal journey. You have a pattern of stabilizing in between reductions, which is great, but now that you are getting more and longer waves, it's really time to learn some non-drug coping skills so that you don't add in substances that, in the long run, make you worse. 

 

22 hours ago, Shep said:

What non-drug coping skills are you using to deal with the daytime anxiety? 

 

I'm not minimizing your experience by continuing to ask this. Please do your best to answer this as you continue on your journey.

[Mimi79]

@Shep and @Gridley

I don’t understand what is happening to me.

Yesterday, I updosed a little bit to see if it helps.

I took 0,09mgai at 11:00am and 0,18mgai at 7:00pm (total 0,27mgai) and don’t understand why, but I’ve feel so bad since then. My anxiety is very high, I feel so nervous with heart palpitations.

I had some difficulties too sleep. 
I don’t understand why I am feeling this way. I thought that taking a little more Ativan would help me, not the opposite! 
I feel so bad, I really don’t know what to do!

 

I have this awful feeling that my body don’t want this drug. I don’t know what to do!

Do you thing if I continue to be steady with the same dose, one day my body will calm down and get used to it?

 

Thank you so much! I am so afraid. I will give you my day journal:

 

So yesterday:

(The night before, I’ve took 0,18mgai at 6:30pm)

7:30 Wake up, feeling almost fine, a little nervous. Reading in my bed.

9:00 Took a little breakfast. Not a lot of appetite. Took omega-3.

10:00 On my computer, more and more nervous/anxious/agitated.

11:00 Taking 0,9mgai Ativan.

12:00 very nervous and anxious, inner agitation.

13:00 A little bit calmer. Eat a little bit, not much appetite.

14:00 A little bit more calm. Watching TV on Netflix. Very sad about my situation with Ativan. Cry a lot. Feel spaced out or drugged.

16:00 to 18:09 More and more agitation/nervousness/anxiety, but manageable. 
19:00 Eat a little.

19:15 Took 0,18mgai Ativan.

20:00 To 22:00 Feel better, but still very depressed about my situation. Feel trapped.

23:00 Go to bed. Don’t know why, but as soon as I went to bed, my anxiety, nervosity and some heart palpitations arised. 
Fall asleep around 2:00 am. 
Woke up at 8:00, in panick and de desperate because I feel already so bad, don’t know how I will be able to wait until 11:00 before the next dose.

[Shep]

5 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

I don’t understand why I am feeling this way. I thought that taking a little more Ativan would help me, not the opposite! 

 

This is caused by nervous system destabilization from continuing to change your dose and / or timing. 

 

Please be consistent. Pick a dose a time(s) of the day and then stay with it consistently.