Mimi79: Will I survive?

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone,

I need some help as I think I did a little mistake.

I was holding still my Ativan dose since october and was waiting for a real stabilisation that was hard to come.

Since mid-march, I was feeling a bit better. A lot of good days with mild symptoms, I was functionning better in my day to day life.

Because I was eager to resume my Ativan taper, I did a drop from 0.18mg to 0.17mg, so a 0.01mg drop. The first 2 weeks were ok-ish, mild to moderate symptoms on and off. But since the last week or so, all hell broke loose! My worst symptoms are returning (depression, anxiety), but the worst is I am in a total anhedonia/apathy state since the last 2 days or so. I havent had those symptoms this bad since the beginning of my benzo taper. It is so hard I am not fonctionning properly.

I need advice. I don't want to updose, but I don't want to be stuck like this for weeks or months. Will it go away? Do those symptoms can wax and wane like my usual symptoms?

What should I do?

I realize now that maybe I wasnt stable enought to make this small cut.

And as I am dry cutting, I cannot do smaller decrement.

Thank you for all your help.

Marie

[Shep]

@Mimi79You may want to updose while you're within a safe reinstatement timeframe. And then see if you can stabilize. 

 

Let us know how you do. 

[Mimi79]

@Shep Thank you for your fast answer.

My question is, do I updose to my previous dose (0,18mg)? Because I am dry cutting and weighting, I cannot do an « in between ». But I am afraid it will be too much.

what do you think? And what is the time frame within I can safely updose?

 

[Shep]

According to your signature, you went from .18mg to .17 mg on April 5, which was 18 days ago. Benzo updoses work best 2 - 4 weeks after the decrease, so you're in that timeframe.  Yes, it is possible that going back to the previous dose after 18 days may be too much, but the only other option is to hold. What do you think? Worth a shot? 

[Mimi79]

Thank you @Shep,

It’s always something difficult to chose, staying or updosing.

Today, I have the feeling that the apathy is a very little bit better today. It is very subtle, I am still in a bad shape, I have been able to do some home task and to watch a movie. I was not able to do that yesterday.

 

I think I will wait until Wednesday to see if I am really improving, and if not, I will updose. 
 

Thank you again.

[Shep]

You're welcome. Let us know how you're feeling over the coming days. 

[Mimi79]

Hi @Shep

I have a question. I realize now that I wasn’t stable enough to resume my taper, even if I was waiting since October.

What I don’t understand is why last summer and last fall I was able to taper without too much issues. I was decreasing my dose every month and it was relatively easy. I don’t understand why it is so tough  now. 
The fact I stayed on the same dose for 5 months, is it why it’s so difficult now? Is it dangerous or bad to stay too long on the same dose? I have the feeling I am « more » dependent because of that. 
And do you think if I stay on the same dose for a while, until I am really stable, it will be worse and even more difficult for me to taper? 
I don’t get how benzodiazepine dependency work. It seems so more complex than ADs. 
Thank you

Marie

[Shep]

20 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

The fact I stayed on the same dose for 5 months, is it why it’s so difficult now? Is it dangerous or bad to stay too long on the same dose? I have the feeling I am « more » dependent because of that. 
And do you think if I stay on the same dose for a while, until I am really stable, it will be worse and even more difficult for me to taper? 
I don’t get how benzodiazepine dependency work. It seems so more complex than ADs. 

 

Some people do well with long holds but there is the "poop out" effect. Also, being at a functional but still struggling state for a long time can cause battle fatigue, so even if the symptoms aren't really worse, your ability to cope wears out. Like if you're carrying a ten pound weight when you start running a marathon, the weight doesn't feel that heavy. But by the 10 mile mark and by the 15 mile mark, etc., it feels heavier and heavier. 

 

At that point, you may want to consider a micro-taper so you can move forward with the taper, but the symptoms aren't as severe as with the full 10% a month taper. 

 

It's really hard to say if you'd do better with a longer hold or to make a small 2 or 3% reduction to test the waters. 

 

[Mimi79]

2 hours ago, Shep said:

At that point, you may want to consider a micro-taper so you can move forward with the taper, but the symptoms aren't as severe as with the full 10% a month taper. 

The problem is, I am afraid of changing my taper method. Now I am dry cutting with a Gemini Scale, but if I want to do a Micro taper, I will have to change for a liquid taper, the pills of lorazepam are just too small. I heard a lot of people having issues when changing for a liquid taper and I don’t need that right now. And I have to say, I really don’t know how to do it. It seems so complicated for me.

According to your knowledge, what is the easiest way to transfer to a liquid micro taper?

 

Thank you so much. 
Marie

[Mimi79]

I am wondering, what is the « poop out » manifest with benzo? I have experienced a poop out long ago with Paxil, but how it manifest with a benzo? 

[Shep]

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

According to your knowledge, what is the easiest way to transfer to a liquid micro taper?

 

Gradually is best - it gives your nervous system time to adjust. You could switch 25% at a time over a number of days.

 

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I am wondering, what is the « poop out » manifest with benzo? I have experienced a poop out long ago with Paxil, but how it manifest with a benzo? 

 

You may find this thread helpful. It was written by Colin, the owner of Benzo Buddies:

 

Tolerance & Relative Withdrawal

 

More on this here on Surviving Antidepressants:

 

"Benzo Tolerance withdrawal" during tapering - does it exist?

 

Have any of your supplements changed? You're taking vitamin D, which for some people can be stimulating. What time(s) of the day are you taking your drugs and your supplements and at what doses? 

 

 

[Mimi79]

Hi @Shep

5 hours ago, Shep said:

 

Have any of your supplements changed? You're taking vitamin D, which for some people can be stimulating. What time(s) of the day are you taking your drugs and your supplements and at what doses? 

I haven’t change any supplements since the last 8 weeks. 
Usually, I take Vit D and Vit C in the morning with Omega 3 and Probiotics. Since the last few days, I have taken D and C vit more around noon. I changed it a bit because I was afraid of overloading my system with a lot of stuff at the same time.

But I don’t feel that this tiny change is linked to my issues. 
The worst symptom since the last week or so, and it’s a new one (this is why I am so afraid of it) is a kind of strong apathy/Anhedonia mixed with some anxiety and a general « not feeling well » sensation. Some days it is very strong (like today) and it makes me panicky. What I am used to, My usual symptom pattern is a rollercoaster of depressed days and anxiety days,  alternating with « almost normal » days. But now it is very different. It’s more constant, and I haven’t had any good days since the last 9 days. This is not what I am used to and I have this belief I will stay stuck like this forever. I am so afraid!
And I am afraid of updosing too, because now it’s been 3 weeks and I know it is possible that updosing doesn’t work. I know that either choices will take some time to bring some relief, I just want to choose the faster way…

 

All of this was so much easier when I wasn’t working full time. 

 

Thank you again.

 

Marie79

[Shep]

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

Since the last few days, I have taken D and C vit more around noon. I changed it a bit because I was afraid of overloading my system with a lot of stuff at the same time.

 

Are you able to keep the D as a morning vitamin? That one can be stimulating. Just a thought, as preserving sleep is key. 

 

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

My usual symptom pattern is a rollercoaster of depressed days and anxiety days,  alternating with « almost normal » days. But now it is very different. It’s more constant, and I haven’t had any good days since the last 9 days. This is not what I am used to and I have this belief I will stay stuck like this forever. I am so afraid!

 

Be careful of going into an emotional spiral and your own thoughts making you worse. Might be time to re-visit the non-drug coping section for ways of compassionate care to tone down the negative thoughts. 

[Rosetta]

Hi, Mimi.  I’m thinking of you, and I’m sorry that you are having such a hard time.  I hope it gets better soon.  

I remember well anhedonia.  One would not think that “not caring” could be so distressing!  But, of course, “not caring” is a gross over-simplification of the state of anhedonia.  It is truly miserable, and I want you to know that it will end.  None of these states last.  They morph and change and become something else.  

 

The balance will be found, eventually.  Please have faith in that — except that being anhedonic is often felt as faithlessness, and therein lies the rub, doesn’t it?  The light is very hard to see from that state, but please believe me that it is there!  Rely on the faith of others when yours is obscured.  Try to remember, this is temporary.  Ignore the thought that it is not and focus on anything else that you can.  

 

I found that having a physical experience helped with anhedonia.  Heating pads — I’m always on about the heating pads, aren’t I?  A hot shower, a hot drink, a cold drink, Icy Hot or Tiger Balm, yoga, stretching, etc.  You won’t want to do anything, you won’t believe anything will help, but just do something!  Then, do something else.  Try to stimulate your physical senses when your brain feels dull.  Don’t expect too much, but keep trying.

Rosetta

[Mimi79]

@Rosetta

I am so happy to hear from you! You have such a calming effect on me. I know you have gone through hell and you know what you are talking about.

Yesterday, miracle, I’ve had a good day. I woke up feeling just well and peaceful. The taste of it was so wonderful! All day long, I was able to function almost normally (of course it depends what normally is). It was such a relief! Of course, today I am feeling bad, but having a good day gave me hope and it reminds me that, like you said, nothing is permanent. It reminds me that my CNS still has some resilience. We never know when we will turn a corner and feel better. 
I hope I will have another good day soon. 
It is just so disheartening to see that my taper is so hard. 
I guess I have to say to myself that « C’est la vie ».

Next week, I am meeting by Zoom someone who has been through benzo withdrawal and does peer support. It is the first time I will meet and talk to a survivor like us. I am so excited, but at the same time a bit stressed, because she is an American and I feel a bit stressed to talk in English. But there is absolutely nothing in therms of help in my area, so I don’t have the choice to reach help on your side of the border. I am able to talk fluently in English, but I always feel a bit shy to do it, in front of stranger. I don’t like my accent!

But I can’t wait to talk to her, to feel the compassion, to feel that I am understand and validated. 

So that’s it for me. I really hope you are feeling well these days.

Have a nice weekend!

Marie ❤️

[Rosetta]

Aw, Marie.  I love a French accent.  
 

I am so glad to hear that your good days are giving you hope.  May your Zoom meeting go well!

 

Rosetta🧚🏻‍♀️

[Mimi79]

I have an important question here.

In the next months, I will have to undergo two medical intervention that implies use of a Versed/Fentanyl low sedation cocktail.

I am extremely afraid of the effect of those meds on me, as I am in the middle of a very difficult Ativan taper. 

Is there an alternative I can ask for or I should go through those interventions without any sedation? 
Thanks a lot.

[Shep]

@Mimi79 Please talk to your doctor to see what your options are. Having to take a one-off benzo may not be a problem (many people take a rescue dose from time to time and do fine). And there are some procedures where taking a benzo is optional. But your doctor will be the best one to discuss this with.

 

As far as what members here have experienced, please see these threads:

 

Surgery and anesthesia

 

anesthesia and benzos

 

 

[Kaervin]

On 6/11/2022 at 10:15 AM, Mimi79 said:

I have an important question here.

In the next months, I will have to undergo two medical intervention that implies use of a Versed/Fentanyl low sedation cocktail.

I am extremely afraid of the effect of those meds on me, as I am in the middle of a very difficult Ativan taper. 

Is there an alternative I can ask for or I should go through those interventions without any sedation? 
Thanks a lot.

I had surgery on my hand about a year after stopping klonopin. I believe I was given Versed and whatever anesthesia they used. I had no issues or adverse reaction. That is just my experience, and I wasn't in the middle of a taper.

 

Like Shep said, it shouldn't really set you back any more than one rescue dose. But if you don't want to risk anything you can inquire about non-benzo options if they exist.

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone,

I am asking your help as I am living what it seems to be one of the worst wave of symptoms I’ve ever had. I need some help to understand why it is happening and find solutions to help me cope with it.

As you can see in my signature, my last drop of Ativan was April 5th and I haven’t touch it since because I wanted to feel good for my summer vacations with the kids (it was end of June). This drop was rough but I started to feel better and better around mid-may. Mid-June, I was feeling pretty well, almost symptom-free, and I started my vacations in this good state.

My three weeks break has been great (I went camping with family and friends, did a lot of fun stuff). And during those weeks, my father had an AVC and has been hospitalized, I had to take care of my mom as she was in a panic state. But I don’t know how, I handled very well the stress and fears from this situation, it didn’t provoque any symptoms. Of course I was not working, so it helped.

All things changed when my vacations ended, after my 3 weeks break, it was 2 weeks ago. During my first week back at work, I had a colonoscopy. I refused to take the Versed but said yes to the Fentanyl, as I thought it was not a problem with benzo WD. Maybe I was wrong… I have regrets about it because I don’t think it was necessary to have any anesthesia for this exam. And I am afraid that Fentanyl screwed my brain!
Since I am back at work, I have seen all my usual symptoms increasing badly, and I am almost always in full symptoms. It alternate between bad anxiety, bad chemical depression, Anhedonia and intrusive thoughts. Since the last two weeks, I’ve had maybe 2-3 days were the symptoms were a bit less severe, but it is relentless.

Sorry for this long post, but I try to understand why it is happening.

So my question is, what are the cause of this bad wave?

- The stress of being back at work after a 3 weeks break?

- A delay reaction from the stress of the events with my father?

- The stress from the colonoscopy?

- A bad reaction from the Fentanyl?

 

I just don’t understand and I even have the feeling that I am being worst and worst as days go by. And what can I do to help abate  the symptoms? My very worst is depression. It is almost always there since the last 2 weeks. It never happened before. I was use of having this symptom a day or two and next a good day. Now it is unrelenting. I am struggling to work. I am struggling to take care of my house and family. I think I’ve never been so desperate.

 

Thank you for your help!

 

Marie

[Shep]

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

So my question is, what are the cause of this bad wave?

- The stress of being back at work after a 3 weeks break?

- A delay reaction from the stress of the events with my father?

- The stress from the colonoscopy?

- A bad reaction from the Fentanyl?

 

Probably a culmination of all of this, Mimi. Just going back to work after a 3 week break can make anyone stressed. And seeing a loved one through a sickness can also cause a lot of distress. 

 

Do as much self-care as you can. The windows will return. The fact that you were feeling almost symptom-free in the lead-up to your vacation is a sign of resiliency. 

[Mimi79]

@Shep So I can have hope that a « one shot » of Fentanyl won’t mess with my brain too much? Have you ever heard of depression induced by Fentanyl? I have searched all SA and the web and it is hard to find information about a one shot dose of this drug.

[Shep]

On 7/29/2022 at 9:20 AM, Mimi79 said:

@Shep So I can have hope that a « one shot » of Fentanyl won’t mess with my brain too much? Have you ever heard of depression induced by Fentanyl? I have searched all SA and the web and it is hard to find information about a one shot dose of this drug.

 

Many people going through withdrawal have to treat other health conditions, including conditions that require pain medications. With so many other issues you're dealing with, I would just look at this as another bump in the road that will even out over time as you get acclimated back into a routine work schedule after having been on vacation. I wouldn't worry about a one-time pain medication use. 

[Mimi79]

Hello everyone,

@Shep, @

I have a dilemma and need some guidance.

 

Last summer, after a pretty bade wave, I’ve decided to search for a solution in my Ativan taper. I am doing cut and hold with A scale and at the dose I am now (0,15mgA), the smallest cut I can do are 0,01mg, and it is definitely too much for my sensitive CNS. 
 

Because I am a bit afraid of doing titration, my GP proposed me making the switch to Valium. I was considering positively this idea, because I know the Valium pills are bigger and it would allow me to continue the cut and hold fashion. 
 

I started the transition very carefully last week (Tuesday), removing 0,02mg of Ativan and replacing it by 0,2mg Valium.

 

But now, after almost a week, I am feeling as much as bad as if I’ve been removing this amount of Ativan without replacing it. In other words, I am in full Ativan W/D. The intensity is maybe a little bit less severe, but overall, I am feeling pretty bad. And knowing each steps are going to be this difficult, I am totally discouraged. This is not what I was expecting at all. 
 

I am ready to give it few more days to see if things turn around, but I am more and more sceptical I am doing the right thing.

 

I would like some guidance or other opinion, do you think I must continue and maybe it won’t be too bad? Or I must stop it now, try to re-stabilize and switch to liquid Ativan titration? What do you think will bring less suffering? 
 

Thank you so much for your very precious help.

 

Marie

[Shep]

22 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I am doing cut and hold with A scale and at the dose I am now (0,15mgA), the smallest cut I can do are 0,01mg, and it is definitely too much for my sensitive CNS. 

 

Is this the Daily Microtaper? Getting down to the low doses is problematic with that type of taper, especially when using a scale. 

 

Going forward, you may want to go with weekly reductions (like with the Brassmonkey Slide) or simply slow down to 2 or 3% reductions per month taken at once. 

 

What is your total monthly reduction with this method? 

 

22 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

Because I am a bit afraid of doing titration, my GP proposed me making the switch to Valium. I was considering positively this idea, because I know the Valium pills are bigger and it would allow me to continue the cut and hold fashion. 
 

I started the transition very carefully last week (Tuesday), removing 0,02mg of Ativan and replacing it by 0,2mg Valium.

 

We rarely recommend the Valium crossover because it is risky, especially for members with a destabilized nervous system. Many of these crossovers do not go well. As you mentioned, your CNS is sensitive. 

 

Since 1 mg of Ativan = 10 mg of Valium, your crossover rate is correct. So that's not the problem. 

 

The half-life with Valium is up to 200 hours, so it's building up in your system. The fact that it's not covering the Ativan withdrawal is concerning. If you do want to transfer back, I would do it sooner rather than later.

 

The other option is to ride it out, but again, there's no guarantee that the Valium will cover the Ativan withdrawal. 

 

23 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

Because I am a bit afraid of doing titration,

 

23 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

Or I must stop it now, try to re-stabilize and switch to liquid Ativan titration?

 

Why are you afraid of liquid titration? Have you had a bad experience in the past? 

[Shep]

23 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I started the transition very carefully last week (Tuesday), removing 0,02mg of Ativan and replacing it by 0,2mg Valium.

 

Sorry, Mimi, I forgot to ask - what all are you taking now? How many doses are Valium and how many are Ativan? 

 

Please let us know more about how you're crossing over. 

[Mimi79]

@Shep

Thank you for your help.

 

2 hours ago, Shep said:

Is this the Daily Microtaper? Getting down to the low doses is problematic with that type of taper, especially when using a scale. 

No, I am not microtapering. I am doing cut and hold and I cut 0,01mg Ativan when I am able to (symptom based). I have only been able to taper 0,03mgai in the last 10 months!
And still I feel crappy half of the time! This is why my GP proposed me the Valium switch.

 

2 hours ago, Shep said:

Why are you afraid of liquid titration? Have you had a bad experience in the past?

I didn’t have any bad experience, but the reason I feared it is that It is a big change for me, and doing the math, dissolving in a liquid, being sure that I don’t do any mistakes, all of this seems very complicated. I love cutting and weighting because it is so simple. 

And I’ve heard that some people did not adjust to the liquid, so I thought it was as risky as switching to Valium. This is why I asked, what is the riskiest way, Valium switch or liquid switch?

 

2 hours ago, Shep said:

Sorry, Mimi, I forgot to ask - what all are you taking now? How many doses are Valium and how many are Ativan? 

 

Please let us know more about how you're crossing over. 

I will update my signature, I just don’t remember how to do it.

So before the switch, I was at 0,15mgai of Ativan. I started the switch last Thursday, so I am on my 8th day. I am still on the first step, so I replaced 0,02mgai of Ativan with 0,2mgai of Valium.

I am at 0,13mgai Ativan and 0,2mgai Valium.

 

For now, the symptoms are not too bad, but I feel extremely flat and low and tired. Like I don’t care about anything. This is not a symptom I am used to have. 

 

I really don’t know what to do. I’ve made so much bad w/d choices since the last 2 years, I am not able anymore to make good and confident decisions. I am not able to trust myself anymore. I feel so lost in all that, with the added pressure of my GP who wants me off this medication as soon as possible. And of course she knows and understand nothing about W/D. 

 

So this is where I stand. Very tired of all that, I have to say… 

 

But I am so grateful to have your help and insight. 

Thank you so much!

 

Marie

[Shep]

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

No, I am not microtapering. I am doing cut and hold and I cut 0,01mg Ativan when I am able to (symptom based). I have only been able to taper 0,03mgai in the last 10 months!
And still I feel crappy half of the time! This is why my GP proposed me the Valium switch.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I didn’t have any bad experience, but the reason I feared it is that It is a big change for me, and doing the math, dissolving in a liquid, being sure that I don’t do any mistakes, all of this seems very complicated. I love cutting and weighting because it is so simple. 

And I’ve heard that some people did not adjust to the liquid, so I thought it was as risky as switching to Valium. This is why I asked, what is the riskiest way, Valium switch or liquid switch?

 

The liquid switch is less risky because it's the same drug. By switching to Valium, you are automatically going into Ativan withdrawal. The Valium may or may not cover Ativan withdrawal. 

 

The best way to switch to liquid is to do so gradually, taking some of your daily dose by liquid and same by tablet. This gradually change is easiest on your nervous system. 

 

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I will update my signature, I just don’t remember how to do it.

 

Looks like you've updated your signature already, but just so you have the quick link that goes directly there, I'll place it here: 

 

Create Your Signature in "Account Settings"

 

19 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I really don’t know what to do. I’ve made so much bad w/d choices since the last 2 years, I am not able anymore to make good and confident decisions. I am not able to trust myself anymore. I feel so lost in all that, with the added pressure of my GP who wants me off this medication as soon as possible. And of course she knows and understand nothing about W/D. 

 

How are you presenting this to your GP? Are you letting her know that you're doing great and your taper is working well so she'll keep prescribing, knowing you're slowly making your way off? 

 

If you're coming to her repeatedly letting her know that you're struggling, she may be trying to get you off faster. You mention she knows nothing about W/D. It's common for ignorant doctors to rush their patients because they don't believe it's withdrawal and they become frustrated and impatient. 

 

No guarantees that anything you do or say will help with some doctors. Unfortunately, their ignorance knows no bounds. 

 

If you do decide to go back to Ativan and stop the crossover, you may message it that you felt much better on Ativan and you're sure you'll be able to taper it, albeit it slowly, but you were much happier on Ativan. Being as upbeat as possible makes her job easier and she may be more likely to continue with the Ativan prescription. 

 

Just a thought. Navigating benzos with doctors is difficult. 

 

20 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

For now, the symptoms are not too bad, but I feel extremely flat and low and tired. Like I don’t care about anything. This is not a symptom I am used to have. 

 

 

Many people find Valium to be more sedating than other benzos, so this may be in part a side effect. Although your Valium dose at this part of the crossover is very low, you may be hyper-reacting to side effects due to having a destablized nervous system. This is why crossovers are much more risky when someone is already destabilized. We see the best results from the Valium crossover when someone switches before they begin their taper and their nervous system isn't already damaged. 

 

How is your sleep? Is Valium helping with sleep? When do you take your Valium dose - at night or earlier in the day? If you decide to continue the crossover, you may want to target the Valium for nighttime, if you haven't already done so. 

[Mimi79]

Hi dear @Shep, and thank you so much for your help, it is so appreciated!

 

3 hours ago, Shep said:

How are you presenting this to your GP? Are you letting her know that you're doing great and your taper is working well so she'll keep prescribing, knowing you're slowly making your way off? 

I am in a difficult situation, because since I crashed in August (after fentanyl shot from colonoscopy), I have been in sick leave from work, and I am using this situation to try to speed up my taper. If I lie and say I am good, she will stop to sign the paper for my sick leave. In other words, I need her to sign the insurance papers. And this is the reason she tries quick fix, to return me to work ASAP.

 

I will try a bit longer the crossover, because I want to have good proofs if it isn’t working. I really don’t know how I will be able to convince her to try liquid taper. I have 2 weeks left to think about it, before I see her.

 

4 hours ago, Shep said:

How is your sleep? Is Valium helping with sleep? When do you take your Valium dose - at night or earlier in the day? If you decide to continue the crossover, you may want to target the Valium for nighttime, if you haven't already done so.

Since the beginning of my Ativan taper last year, my sleep is not an issue. I sleep well almost of the time. Valium hasn’t change it.

For now, I take 0,2mg V at night. For the next step, I will switch a part of the morning dose.

 

Just for my information, if I decide to go with liquid Ativan, is it better to use DIY suspension or compound one? 
 

Thank you for your help!

 

Marie

[Shep]

On 10/22/2022 at 11:23 AM, Mimi79 said:

Since the beginning of my Ativan taper last year, my sleep is not an issue. I sleep well almost of the time. Valium hasn’t change it.

For now, I take 0,2mg V at night. For the next step, I will switch a part of the morning dose.

 

 

This is great, Mimi. The fact that you're sleeping is an excellent sign of resilience. 

 

You may want to add more Valium to your nighttime dose and remove the morning Ativan. You could see how Valium affects you first. If it's too sedating, it will be better to keep it at night. The long half life means you won't have to worry about interdose withdrawal. 

 

Please post your thoughts.

 

On 10/22/2022 at 11:23 AM, Mimi79 said:

Just for my information, if I decide to go with liquid Ativan, is it better to use DIY suspension or compound one? 
 

 

Either way will work, but getting it already in liquid form is easier because it's already in a solvent form so you can simply add it to water (Ativan tablets aren't easily soluble in water, but you can use a tiny amount of alcohol, Vodka works well, or propylene glycol).  Let us know if you need more information. 

 

[Mimi79]

Hi @Shep

Again, thank you so much for the time you take to help me. So much appreciated.

 

On 10/23/2022 at 12:50 PM, Shep said:

This is great, Mimi. The fact that you're sleeping is an excellent sign of resilience

I hope what you are saying is true, as I don’t feel like my CNS is very resilient! I will take that as a good sign.

 

I think I’ve made my decision. I am still not sure it is the right one, and maybe I will regret it, but I will stop the Valium, as I don’t feel I have the strength right now to go through the crossover. I feel so flat since I take the V, don’t know if it’s w/d symptoms or effect from the Valium, but anyway I don’t care, I don’t want to feel like this anymore!
 

I feel I need a break of all this W/D ordeal. Not that I want to stop, but I think I will pause and let things settle a bit. 
Then after, I will reassess and probably switch to liquid Ativan and try a very gentle DLMT. I will ask you question about liquid titration in time.

 

I will start tonight to re transition to Ativan. Do you think I have to do it gradually or in a one-go?

 

Thank you so much for your help.

 

Marie

 

[Shep]

1 hour ago, Mimi79 said:

Then after, I will reassess and probably switch to liquid Ativan and try a very gentle DLMT. I will ask you question about liquid titration in time.

 

I will start tonight to re transition to Ativan. Do you think I have to do it gradually or in a one-go?

 

Gradual is usually better, however, you're going to have the Valium in your system for a long time due to the half life. You may get away with doing a more rapid transition back, especially since it's at the start of your crossover and you're still mostly on Ativan. 

 

You may want to switch over 1/2 of the Valium to the Ativan equivalent for a couple of days and then switch completely over. 

 

Please post your thoughts. 

[Mimi79]

@Shep

28 minutes ago, Shep said:

You may want to switch over 1/2 of the Valium to the Ativan equivalent for a couple of days and then switch completely over. 

 

Please post your thoughts. 

This is actually what I am planning. I plan to be at 0,14mg A+0,1mg V for a week, then after full Ativan.
At the end, It is possible also that I stay on 0,14mg A and remove the last 0,1mg V instead of replacing it. This way, I would do a decrease in dose at the same time. My pride don’t want me to go back to 0,15mg A, as it is for me I kind of failure. 
 

Oh la la, toute une aventure!

 

I supposed I had to try it to know it is not for me right now. I must see it as part of a learning curve instead of a fail…

 

Thank you again.

 

Marie

 

 

[Shep]

@Mimi79Just one more thought, Mimi. Because of Valium's half-life, it's possible to become dependent on it much easier - with a 200 hour half-life, it's in your system long enough for that to happen. I wouldn't take too long to cross back over. 

 

Do as much self-care as you can. It may be a bit bumpy for awhile, but it will sort itself out over the long run. 

[Mimi79]

6 minutes ago, Shep said:

@Mimi79Just one more thought, Mimi. Because of Valium's half-life, it's possible to become dependent on it much easier - with a 200 hour half-life, it's in your system long enough for that to happen. I wouldn't take too long to cross back over.

Just to fully understand, do you think doing the first part of the switch today and the other in a week will be to long? What would be the best time frame? 

[Shep]

28 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

Just to fully understand, do you think doing the first part of the switch today and the other in a week will be to long? What would be the best time frame? 

 

Yes, that's way too long. You'll end up dependent on the Valium - it has a long half life and it's building up in your system. 

 

I would cut it in half one day and then stop the next day. I know that sounds abrupt, but Valium is one of the drugs that's considered "self-tapering" because of the long half life. 

 

Please let me know if this helps.