Mimi79: Will I survive?

[Erell]

Hello dear Mimi

 

I thank you for your kind support on my thread 🤗

 

I'm sorry to read that you're struggling after feeling better. 

 

I know how nice it is when we feel better and hiw quickly we forget and want to go on with our lives. 

However,  I can not insist enough on the importance of avoiding alcohol : I've done this mistake during my Benzo taper, and everytime I regreted it.

 

Really, alcohol doesn't worth it.

 

Hugs ☀️

[brassmonkey]

Very good Mimi, you're doing a lot of the right things, they just take time and practice to really work. CBT is a very good thing to learn, but we have found that it is not all that effective against neuroemotions.  It does help the things around the neuroemotions which will help lighten the load.

 

A little exposure therapy can be helpful, but it is really easy to over do it for someone in ADWD. Neuroemotons get mixed with real emotions and it can get pretty hard to sort it all out. Pushing one's boundarys is a good thing and in moderation will help the healing process.

 

The thoughts do tend to come in waves, so they will be around for a while, then go away for a while. It is nice to have a break from them.

 

That saying is a bit long, but is a very good start.  With use you can shorten it to something easier to remember and easier to say as the new wording comes to you.

[Artistic1]

@Mimi79 I understand your concerns over the drugs causing the thoughts. It sounds like your therapy may not have been the right approach. I like  your idea of using an inner dialogue ("Ok, now I have this thought, I welcome it, because it is part of my life experience, but I dissociate myself from this thought, because it does not represent the person that I am, my values. I don't have to worry about it.") It can help to repeat things like this. However, the mind has to believe it, and sometimes, we just don't buy into the statement, or it doesn't really tackle the core issue. Maybe that's why it's losing its effectiveness.

 

Something else..... Our intrusive thoughts can be about different things (sleep, work, relationships), and your statement is so general that it doesn't really address the core of the thought. My therapist heled me learn how to address the core of each thought with a method called "Thought Records." You write down the thought, (they're called "hot thoughts" because they're NOT 100% true.) You then write down any evidence you have that supports it as true, and then any evidence that DOESN'T support it as true. Following that, you write a "Balanced Thought" based on the factual evidence, and that is the thought that you repeat to yourself. The mind can actually accept this more easily because it addresses a specific thought and is based on actual evidence. The book I used with my therapist to do this is called "Mind Over Mood," by Dennis Greenberger and Christine Padesky. It's available on Amazon. So easy to use and so helpful!  You can do it yourself. I ended up with dozens of balanced thoughts to repeat each day, and it really helped.

 

Here's an example of what you learn to do in the book.

Intrusive HOT thought: "I'm not doing enough with my life."

Evidence in support: I don't work (retired.) The things I do are insignificant. (This is actually another hot thought because it's subjective and not 100% true, , so it's not really evidence.) My husband and I don't do much together. I procrastinate a lot. 

Evidence NOT in support: I don't have a regular job, but I do lots of necessary things around the house, which my husband appreciates. My husband and I don't do as much as we used to, but we are older and not able to get out like that anymore. I am always there when friends call to lend an ear, and I help my neighbors where I can. I work with dog rescue groups, which is very important to me (and to the dogs!) I read and make time for something creative each day. What I deem as "insignificant" and "not doing enough" are subjective and arbitrary. Where does "doing enough" stop? It's an unrealistic ideal. The things I do each day may not be earth-shaking, but they have significance that I just might not be seeing at the moment. I do procrastinate, but in the end, the things that need to get done, do get done, so it's not a problem.

BALANCED THOUGHT: Although I sometimes think I'm not doing enough with my life, there are actually many things that I do that are significant. They may not be grandiose, but they DO have value to me and to others. 

BALANCED THOUGHT: "Not doing enough" is a subjective standard and something I have learned through my upbringing and my culture. Placing more value on some activities over others is subjective and learned. I can look for the real value in the things I do, and not be chasing after some unrealistic standard.

 

Hope this helps! You are on the right track!

[Artistic1]

@MarieR Hi! I'm so glad you like Amy Johnson! I listen to her every week. Sometimes the topics don't relate to me, but she always has something helpful to say. Good luck!

[Mimi79]

@Artistic1 Thank you for your tips. Very interesting. 
In fact, what you are doing is true Cognitive behavioral therapy. In French we call it « réassignation de pensée » or something like that. I did it in the past to address my chronic insomnia and it helps a lot. 
My main WD symptom now is obsessive intrusive thoughts, that have a lot in common with OCD. But I want to underline that I am not a natural OCD person. It appeared when I tried a too fast taper from Mirtazapine, last winter. 
I have 2 kind of Obsessive thoughts. First I have an obsession about body sensations (very weird), but fortunately, this one has lessen a lot, it is almost gone now. The one that is affecting me the most right now is intrusive thoughts of hurting my children, even if I’m 100% sure  I won’t do that. Just having those horrific thoughts is affecting me a lot, causing hight anxiety.  But I know it’s caused by my actual wave.

[Artistic1]

@Mimi79 I didn't realize the kinds of intrusive thoughts you were having. That can be tough. But you sound like you have a really good head on your shoulders, and it appears you have some coping mechanisms that are working for you. I hate it when those thoughts cause such anxiety!!

[Mimi79]

Yes, I think I have some coping skills, but it doesn’t work overnight like I would like! And those thoughts are brought by the waves. This is why I don’t know what to do with them. Wait for the wave to stop, or fight them...
I have an excellent book about OCD that I bought this winter, before I found SA and knowing I wasn’t OCD. I think I can use it to help me. I will reread it. I think there is a lot of acceptance to learn, because those symptoms will continue to be with me for a while.

 

[Rosetta]

Hi.  It is my strong belief that everyone can heal.  I believe that people who never heal are experiencing recurrent events that re-ignite the turmoil in the nervous system.  There are various events that can throw people back into dysautonomia, the technical term for what we call “withdrawal” here on SA.  Taking drugs (or alcohol) is the most common way of regressing to dysautonomia.  Of course, you must take the drug you are tapering.  I’m addressing new or different drugs here. Sometimes, taking drugs is unavoidable — surgeries, unexpected injuries, etc.  At the dentist’s office, you may be given a shot in your gums.  There are non-adrenaline based numbing agents you must ask for and be sure are used.  Adrenaline based agents can throw your system back into dysautonomia.  

At some point, it will be safe to drink alcohol for most people, but there is no way to know when.  What I say to decline a drink is that I feel a headache coming on, and I should have water instead.  That way I don’t have to deal with anyone trying to pressure me.  I think it may be a very long time before I can have alcohol again.  

I’m beginning to think that sugar is a problem, too.  I’m wondering if I might recover if I stopped eating sugar.  Anything that affects hormones (well, ok, that’s everything), anything that affects hormones to a greater degree, is probably off limits.  Yeah, pretty depressing thought, huh?  But, for me, at this point, it’s worth a shot.

[MarieR]

Being new, it's likely that my thought has been said and noted many times. But I've observed how hypersensitive I am to any stress. I'm teaching two online courses this fall and had a deadline to have the courses prepared for student preview. In the past, I thrived on that kind of thing. This time, as I watched the clock tick towards the deadline with lots yet to do, and the typical technology glitches needing to be dealt with on top of everything else, every single one of my current physical symptoms fired up big time. It was the strangest thing to watch. No wonder with Covid 19 and everything else that's going on we're all suffering. For me, that observation really helped take the sting out of the experience. So much out of my control that I just need to allow to pass through me. : )

[Mimi79]

Thank you @Rosetta and @MarieR

I’ve had a short window last weekend that last only few days (over the weekend). As the work days went by, my symptoms returned gradually. 
I’m unhappy and disappointed because I’ve been in a long window during almost all the summer, and now I’m struggling so much!

I thought that once you’ve had those very long windows, you were on the track for healing, that waves were almost done.

How I was wrong. And I find it more difficult to have those waves after so much good windows... so frustrating!

I’m so afraid to be stuck like this forever and not being able to taper this horrible drug!

 

Thank you again for all your support!

 

Anne-Marie

[Rosetta]

Yes, it’s very hard to fall back into a wave.  I’m so sorry.  I never “get used to it,” but I do improve my coping skills each time.  

It sounds as if you have anticipatory anxiety when you describe preparing for your courses.  I know that feeling well.  It’s a symptom of WD, and it will fade (and return and fade again).  Being a perfectionist, I found it very hard to prepare for work.  Hang in there.

 

Rosetta

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone and thank you again for your support. 
I am still struggling these days, like a constant wave for the last month or so. It is hard to accept after many months of feeling quite good.

I don’t really understand why, now that the
« back to school » period is behind us.
Of course, after a calm and almost « Covid free »  summer, the pandemic is growing here. I’ve done two tests in the last 5 days. 

So my symptoms are changing. Two weeks ago I had intrusive thoughts, last week I was feeling very and constantly anxious and now I am both very anxious and depressed. I am trying to do my best at work and at home, but I’m so tired. I’ve had a very bad night two days ago, I slept only 4-5 hours.

Some days are better then other, today was particularly tough. 

I just want to have some inner peace and confidence that I will heal. 

There is maybe one thing that doesn’t help; this summer I was planning to start my taper in September. It was clear to me that I would be ready, because I was feeling so good at that time. When I started this wave a month ago, I realized that it could compromise my taper. And the more I stay in this wave, the more I’m discouraged to not be able to start my taper.

 

So I’ve decided to maybe start it, even if I’m not as stable as I would like to, just to taste the water and to have the feeling of doing something.  I’m wondering if I could be in a « poop out » situation from Mirtazapine. I still don’t understand why I’ve been in good state from May to August then feeling so crappy now. 
 

 I would try to do a 2,5% decrease for 4 weeks, than holding for few weeks. Maybe it will give me some empowerment feelings that could lift my mood.
 

What do you think about it? 

 

Thank you again everyone...

 

Mimi79

[Erell]

Hello dear Mimi,

 

I'm sorry to hear you're struggling at the moment and wanted to send you some hugs 😊

 

I know it sounds crazy, but alcohol really can trigger waves that can last several weeks. You mentioned drinking alcohol during the summer : I'm not saying it is the case but it could really contribute to your current symptoms.

 

About tapering, the decision is yours. My suggestion would be to wait : your body went through a lot of drug changes this year and your CNS might still need time to stabilise and adjust.

 

It is really hard to wait while suffering, human reflex is to act and do something to correct an uncomfortable situation : I know this "need to do something" too well.

But in WD it seems that waiting is doing something : it is offering time to your CNS to repair, adjust, do his work.

 

It is very hard to wait while in the midst of it, but it seems that it's often the best way.

While suffering with intense symptoms, we tend to forget that it won't last forever and that stability might be closer than we think. I know this too well too.

 

The risk when we make changes while being unstable is to destabilise further our CNS.

 

I believe that it is important to reach some stability before making new changes.

 

I'm not an expert about poop out, I don't know.

But you felt good during May-August, and after all you've been through lately this is huge.

 

My guess is that you're on your path to stabilisation and you're currently in a wave.

I wouldn't start a taper now, but rather offer more time to my CNS to stabilise.

 

Thinking of you ☀️

[Mimi79]

Hi @Erell,

Thank you again for your insight. I know you’re probably right.

 

I have to confess I took some alcohol, but very rarely and very small quantities (half a glass or less). It’s hard to believe it could be causing such a bad wave. 
 

I’m thinking about poop-out because I’ve been feeling pretty well from March to august (with a small but bad wave in May). I thought I was a lucky one who was going to have an easy ride. 
 

 Now, especially since the last 3-4 weeks, I’m in a bad wave and it seems to go worse and worse. I don’t understand why, because I am very careful with what I eat, I avoid alcohol and sugar, I try to have good night sleep.  
 

I’m starting to feel discouraged as I don’t see the end. Every time I’m supposed to start my taper, a wave happens. I have this awful feeling that I won’t ever be able to start it! Like a bad destiny, a unreachable goal...

 

I could try to wait some more weeks, but it makes me feel like I will never see the end.

 

Thank you again, and hugs to you too! I can’t believe how you’re able to help others while struggling yourself. You are the true definition of resilience.

 

Mimi

 

 

[Hanna72]

Dear @Mimi79

I am sorry to hear that you are suffering. You have always encouraged me and I am going to give it right back to you.

I know from my own experience that this ride is very unpredictable and extremely frustrating. Not only do we have those waves, but having them for along period of times can make us feel hopeless and defeated. Who wouldn’t have these emotions.

23 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

I’m starting to feel discouraged as I don’t see the end

Mimi there is an end. I am telling you. Believe me there is. I have been told that I would not function without meds, and I am proofing everybody wrong. If I can do it so can you. You are strong and more capable then you give yourself credit. 

 

28 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

I have this awful feeling that I won’t ever be able to start it! Like a bad destiny, a unreachable goal...

Don’t listen to those thoughts. They are only thoughts and have nothing to do with your strength and capability of reaching your goal. You will reach it, there is no doubt in my mind, and erase that thought. 
I would get yourself in a good place before your next cut. 
And listen

Nothing is impossible 

until it’s done.

Hugs to you!
 

[Mimi79]

I still don’t understand why after such good months I’m feeling this way. 
I can’t put my finger on something I did. Since the last 4 weeks, I’ve tried to avoid sugar and high histamine food. I’ve tried to sleep more and I totally avoided alcohol, and I’m feeling worse.

 

I’m in my longest wave since last January. It’s very frustrating and making me doubt about all my effort. And what I should do next. 
 

I will do my best to keep going and keep my faith.

 

Mimi

[Altostrata]

What is your current drug schedule? Look at your packets of tablets, are they within the expiration date?

[Mimi79]

Thank you so much @Altostrata for your help!

 

My current drug schedule is simple. I take my 45mg of Mirtazapine at 10h00pm. 
 

I cannot know the expiration date as my bottle of pills is prepared by the pharmacist. This is not an original box from the company. Here in Canada, we can’t have more than one month of prescription at a time. So I have a new bottle each month from the pharmacy.

 

I’m very careful now about little details, as I’m asking the pharmacist to always have the same exact brand of Mirtazapine. And it’s always the same since the last 12 months. 
 

I’m wondering, could it be a poop-out? I’ve had poop-out from Paxil few years ago and it was similar. I was feeling pretty well, and after a short stressful period, I started to have symptoms of anxiety out of nowhere, and never recovered from it without changing AD. I know I’ve had some stress with the back to school of my kids, but I’ve had other stressful moments since March and it didn’t caused a wave as tough as this one.

 

I’m a bit afraid that I won’t be able to feel better one day. 
 

Thank you again for your support.

 

Mimi79

[Mimi79]

I’m trying to reach the link Gridley put on my thread about Tachyphilaxis and it doesn’t seem to work anymore. Is it normal? I would like to reread it.

Thank you!

[brassmonkey]

We did a rewrite and reposting of the article a few months ago and that may have broken the links. This is probably the article Gridley sent you to

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/23081-are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take/?tab=comments#comment-492496

 

[Mimi79]

@brassmonkey Thank you very much!

I’m wondering how can I know I’m in poop out versus WD? 

[Mimi79]

@brassmonkey. 
I would like to understand the difference between WD symptoms and Poop-out. How can I tell them apart? 
I have the feeling I’m in a bad wave, but don’t understand why as I was feeling pretty well and stable since May. How can I get so sick and bad after such good moments? I take care of myself, don’t drink alcool anymore, I’m careful of what I eat, so I don’t figure why I feel so crappy.

This is why I’m wondering if it could be a poop-out from Remeron. 
 

Thank you so much for your guidance.

 

Mimi79

[brassmonkey]

The biggest difference between normal WD and poopout is how the symptoms start up. Poopout symptoms sneak up on you very slowly over many weeks or months where as normal WD symptoms will start up quite quickly. That's one reason for using a wave as an example, because the symptoms crash over you. It is pretty normal to be feeling very good for several weeks and then wake up one morning feeling like you're back to square one. They can come out of nowhere for no reason. It's probably not something you did or didn't do, there is no way of telling. If there is a good thing about waves it's that they will eventually fade and many people actually feel better once it's over than before it started.

[marie123]

Hi Mimi. I waited a few months to stabilize but everyone is different. Maybe you should wait longer? I think it is possible you are having a wave due to the different drug changes the past two years including the seroquel and ativan. When you are ready to taper the Mirt make a small cut to see how you feel. I hope you feel better soon. Marie.

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone,

I take the time to write that I’ve been in a beautiful window this weekend. I’ve started to feel my wave lifting on Friday morning. 
I had wonderful time during this weekend with friends and family. It was so good to feel normal again, without any anxiety. 
Unfortunately, it didn’t last, but I’m not as bad as last week, so I hope that I will stay in this place (in between) for a while. 
 

 

[Shep]

Thanks for the update, Mimi. Always glad to read about a window. Since you're not as bad as you were now that the window closed, it's possible you're seeing some baseline improvements. Knowing that increased baseline healing is happening during the window-and-wave process can make it psychologically easier to deal with waves because it speaks to the overall healing process. Hopefully another window will come soon. 

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone and thank you Shep for your answer.

Despite I had my period last week, I didn’t fall in a bad wave (like usual during this time of the month). I experienced one or two days with more symptoms, but they were very manageable. Not enough to call it a wave.

 

I’ve been stabilizing for 8 months now and I feel ready to start my tapering process. I still have waves and windows, but I feel confident I can ride them more easily. My overall baseline is improving and I’ve developed some helpful habits during the last few weeks to help me cope with symptoms (change in diet, mindfulness, better sleep hygiene, etc).
 

I’m a little bit anxious as I feel like a baby doing his first steps. I hope I will be ok!🤞🏻
 

Can I find a video who explain how to dry cut my pills and weighting it with a scale? I need to get confidence in this process.

 

I will give you some updates along the way.

 

Thank you!
 

 

[Shep]

On 10/17/2020 at 9:18 PM, Mimi79 said:

Can I find a video who explain how to dry cut my pills and weighting it with a scale? I need to get confidence in this process.

 

This one may be helpful:

 

Scale use video (6.5 minutes)

 

Also, see the thread:

 

Using a digital scale to measure doses

 

Very glad to read you're doing well and seeing an increased baseline, as well as developing new skills. 

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone!

I’ve been tapering for 3 weeks now with the Brassmonkey method and I’m still feeling good! I know I’m only at the beginning of the process, but I don’t notice any increase in symptoms. I hope it will continue this way...

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

That's good to hear.  Just remember to listen to your body/symptoms and hold when needed.  We need to throw out the calendar.  The goal is to get off the drug with minimal discomfort.

 

Also be aware (if applicable) that you might feel different at various times during your monthly cycle.  Keeping a symptoms log (some members rate symptoms) can help with seeing if there is any pattern.

 

There are printable and computer versions here as well as blank so you can create your own.

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's Withdrawal Symptoms

[Mimi79]

Thank you very much ChessieCat.

I will download the file to fill them every day.

[Mimi79]

@ChessieCat I would like to update my signature, but don't remember how to do it...

[Mimi79]

Just for fun, I listed all psych meds my GP has throwed at me during my 12 years drug history. I took some of them only few days, but to look at it is astonishing (in a bad way).

 

I want to point out that I initially saw my doctor for a simple insomnia problem... of course, now I understand that my ''Anxiety disorder'' that emerged during those years was in fact WD symptoms.

 

I can't wait to achieve my taper just to make my GP realize that I don't need those drugs for the rest of my life, like ''a diabetic needs insulin''.

 

• Zopiclone (Imovane)
• Oxazepam (Serax)
• Mirtazapine (Remeron)
• Quetiapine (Seroquel)
• Citalopram (Celexa)
• Lorazepam (Ativan)
• Clonazepam (Rivotril)
• Duloxetine (Cymbalta)
• Paroxetine (Paxil)
• Pregabalin (Lyrica)
• Desvenlafaxine (Pristiq)
• Venlafaxine (Effexor)
• Sertraline (Zoloft)
• Buspirone (Buspar)

 

[Hanna72]

Hi @Mimi79

So glad to hear that you are doing well in your taper. Slow and steady will have you win the race.

I have so much faith in you, keep your aim at your goal, don’t look in any other direction but ahead.

When obstacles come your way, know that  you are more then capable of facing them. Stay in the moment, every step counts even the smallest ones. 

Visualise yourself being drug free. Cause you will be. 

9 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I can't wait to achieve my taper just to make my GP realize that I don't need those drugs for the rest of my life, like ''a diabetic needs insulin''.

Yes it is so empowering proofing everyone wrong. Hold on to that thought, and remember, you WILL be free.

 

I am rooting for you on the sidelines  💪
 

 

 

[Rosetta]

On 11/6/2020 at 6:13 PM, Mimi79 said:

Just for fun, I listed all psych meds my GP has throwed at me during my 12 years drug history. I took some of them only few days, but to look at it is astonishing (in a bad way).

 

I want to point out that I initially saw my doctor for a simple insomnia problem... of course, now I understand that my ''Anxiety disorder'' that emerged during those years was in fact WD symptoms.

I

Yes, it’s infuriating, isn’t it?  Every so often, I remember being in group therapy for the first time about 22 years ago.  I was so surprised to be in a depression group in which everyone talked about anxiety all the time.  I was depressed, not anxious (except for normal situational anxiety).  Then, they gave me drugs.  I became anxious just like everyone else. 🙄

 

Rosetta

 

 

[Mimi79]

@Rosetta,

I observed the same. When I’m in a Group Therapy for anxiety, I’m always the « cool in the gang »! Compared to them, nothing seems to bother me. I listen to the story of other members and I don’t connect, because my anxiety is almost always chemical anxiety. In fact, I fear nothing, but I can be extremely anxious, without any reason.

I spent years (and a LOT of money) in talk therapy, or CBT, etc...to understand myself and to find the roots of my anxiety, but it is only last winter that I understand it was impossible to find, because there wasn’t real « anxious me », there was « WD anxiety me ». Drugs are the culprit, the cause of my anxiety. 
In my life after the drugs, I will have to redefine who I am, because I was so identified to the

« anxious me ». 
 

I have a lot of work on my path. I hope that I will win this race...