Mimi79: Will I survive?

[Rosetta]

Yes. I’m glad to hear you feel cool, calm, and collected, at least some of the time, lol.

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone,

I’m in my 6th weeks of tapering and I’m in a wave for 5 days now. It is not easy, as I was doing well and was hopeful about my taper. I’m afraid I will have to hold more time then I was supposed to. It is discouraging, as I would like to go as fast as possible. I hope I won’t have such waves each time I make a cut. If so, it’s gonna be sooo long!

I know I have to be positive, but it’s not easy.

Do I have to hold or I push forward anyway? Don’t know what to do.

 

 

[Rosetta]

Hold.  It’s not about how fast you reduce.  It’s about how comfortable you are as you slowly reduce the drug.  If you go too fast, you will end up very sick.  Reductions tend to build on one another, and you can feel more than one reduction at once after a few.  It’s frustrating.  You have a goal in mind that is a number of milligrams, but that’s not your goal.  Your goal is to stay functional and maintain the relationships with the people who matter to you. That means listening to your body, and reducing at a rate that is right for you.  It doesn’t matter how long it takes.  
 

I’m sorry that you are feeling bad. — Rosetta

[Mimi79]

I am in a very bad wave, certainly the worst since last January. It is now pretty sure that it is caused by WD. Not sure what I should do. Increase a little bit or stay there and hope I will stabilize soon? Don’t know what to  do.

[Shep]

On 11/6/2020 at 7:33 PM, Mimi79 said:

Hi everyone!

I’ve been tapering for 3 weeks now with the Brassmonkey method and I’m still feeling good! I know I’m only at the beginning of the process, but I don’t notice any increase in symptoms. I hope it will continue this way...

 

 

12 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I am in a very bad wave, certainly the worst since last January. It is now pretty sure that it is caused by WD. Not sure what I should do. Increase a little bit or stay there and hope I will stabilize soon? Don’t know what to  do.

 

 

Mimi, have you made any more reductions since you reduced on 11/4 down to 41.63 mg? 

 

Did anything else change regarding external stressors (job, family dynamics, etc.)? You don't have to be specific if you don't wish to, just let us know if there may be anything other than withdrawal that may be stressful to your nervous system. Have you added any supplements, changed your diet, or been doing extra exercise, etc? 

 

 

On 9/17/2020 at 6:10 PM, Mimi79 said:

I have to confess I took some alcohol, but very rarely and very small quantities (half a glass or less). It’s hard to believe it could be causing such a bad wave. 

 

This was back in September, so I just wanted to check and make sure alcohol isn't involved this time? 

 

Before recommending any changes to your dose, let's make sure there aren't any other reasons for the wave. 

 

Also, please let us know what symptoms you're experiencing, as sometimes non-drug coping techniques can help get you through the rough patches so updosing isn't necessary. We might be able to provide you with some ways of coping. 

[Mimi79]

Hi @Shep

Thank you for your reply. 
My signature isn’t updated, as I made a last cut on November 11th. Until this date, I’m at 40,5mg. The wave started 4-5 days after this last cut. I am holding now.

There wasn’t any major change in my life. Last week, I was on holiday. When I went back at my job yesterday, my wave worsened because of the stress.

I haven’t take alcool or drugs, but I had some insomnia 2 weeks ago and I took 0,5mg Ativan for one night only, because I was desperate to sleep. I’m not proud of it. 
At my job, I have a little more stress those time, but normally I cope well with it.

 

I feel very bad. I can’t describe it. It’s like a mix of anxiety, despair, restlessness. I have some nausea too. 
 

Thank you.

[Shep]

Mirtazapine taper: 2020-10-21 43.88mg, 10-28 42.75mg, 11-04 41.63mg, 11-11 40.5 mg

 

From October 21 to November 11, you reduced from 43.88 mg to 40.5 mg, which is a 7.70% reduction in 21 days. While that is less than the recommended 10% per month we recommend here, it still may be too fast for your nervous system to handle, especially if you have other stressors in your life, such as holding a job during a pandemic. You may want to consider a micro-taper.

 

Micro-taper instead of 10% or 5% decreases

 

You could make a slight updose or you could concentrate on some non-drug coping skills such as guided meditations for sleep and going through the usual sleep hygiene of avoiding the computer and TV at night, wearing a sleep mask, some holistic treatments for the nausea, etc. please see:

 

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Digestive problems: nausea, diarrhoea, bloating, GERD

 

21 minutes ago, Mimi79 said:

Last week, I was on holiday. When I went back at my job yesterday, my wave worsened because of the stress.

I haven’t take alcool or drugs, but I had some insomnia 2 weeks ago and I took 0,5mg Ativan for one night only, because I was desperate to sleep. I’m not proud of it. 

 

I wouldn't beat yourself up over a one-off Ativan dose. Two weeks ago would have been November 10, which is one day prior to your latest reduction. Is that timing correct? Were you going into this wave even before reducing? 

 

Did you change when you went to bed and when you got up when you were on holiday? Did you change when you ate meals and snacks? Are you routinely drinking enough water throughout the day? Even a slight change in eating, sleeping, and staying hydrated can upset a destabilized nervous system, so this wave may resolve on its own as you settle into your normal work schedule with a routine bedtime and eating schedule. 

 

How much melatonin are you using? 

 

Please update your signature to (1) reflect your most recent AD decrease and (2) include the dose amounts for your supplements. Your signature is here:

 

Account Settings - Create or Update Your Signature

[Mimi79]

12 hours ago, Shep said:

I wouldn't beat yourself up over a one-off Ativan dose. Two weeks ago would have been November 10, which is one day prior to your latest reduction. Is that timing correct? Were you going into this wave even before reducing? 

Thank you so much @Shep for your help. 
When I had some insomnia, I wasn’t in a wave yet. It was more situational insomnia as I had a big project presentation at my job that caused me some stress. So I didn’t sleep well the night before this meeting. This is where I foolishly take a Ativan. My sleep came back to normal the night after and didn’t have other sleep issues since then.

The wave started maybe 3 days later.

 

12 hours ago, Shep said:

 

Did you change when you went to bed and when you got up when you were on holiday? Did you change when you ate meals and snacks? Are you routinely drinking enough water throughout the day? Even a slight change in eating, sleeping, and staying hydrated can upset a destabilized nervous system, so this wave may resolve on its own as you settle into your normal work schedule with a routine bedtime and eating schedule. 

Of course, during my vacation I didn’t follow a normal pattern for meals, sleep, water, etc... and I know I don’t drink enough, it is difficult for me to drink enough water.

One other thing I didn’t mentioned, I started an UTI at the beginning of this wave and I started few days ago an antibiotic traitement (with Macrobid). Could it be worsening the wave?

 

I think I will increase a little bit my dose tonight (I will return to the step I was before, 41,6mg). I’m very disappointed to do so, but I think it’s the best thing I can do to feel better.

 

It’s very discouraging for me to do micro tapering, because I stopped a lot of ADs in my past history and didn’t have problems with that.

 

Thank you very much for your help.

 

Mimi

[Shep]

9 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

Of course, during my vacation I didn’t follow a normal pattern for meals, sleep, water, etc... and I know I don’t drink enough, it is difficult for me to drink enough water.

One other thing I didn’t mentioned, I started an UTI at the beginning of this wave and I started few days ago an antibiotic traitement (with Macrobid). Could it be worsening the wave?

 

Definitely. Anytime you get sick, your body is going to feel weakened, not to mention the complications of adding in another drug to an already destabilized nervous system.

 

I would prioritize drinking water, as being dehydrated can lead to UTI's. Now that you're back to your usual work routine, hopefully your system will go back to baseline soon as you eat, drink, and go to bed at your regular times. 

 

9 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

I think I will increase a little bit my dose tonight (I will return to the step I was before, 41,6mg). I’m very disappointed to do so, but I think it’s the best thing I can do to feel better.

 

It’s very discouraging for me to do micro tapering, because I stopped a lot of ADs in my past history and didn’t have problems with that.

 

Your nervous system may be kindled now, which can make subsequent withdrawals harder. So I wouldn't get discouraged by going to a micro-taper. If you're setting yourself up to be as functional as possible, you're much more likely to succeed this time when you come off the AD and not go back on this one or another drug later on. This is the big-picture thinking. At the end of your taper and recovery, when you're ready to write your success story, you may not even remember this blip in the road until you re-read your thread. 

 

Thanks for updating your signature. I noticed you're on 2 mg of melatonin. Are you taking the melatonin at the same time as the magnesium glycinate? If so, and if you're still struggling with insomnia, please make sure not getting a paradoxical reaction from taking too many sedating supplements at one time. The more you dampen down the nervous system, the more it fights to stay awake. If 2 mg is too much, you can always take a bit less. As is noted in the melatonin thread, less can be more with this particular supplement / hormone. 

 

On 4/6/2011 at 9:26 PM, Altostrata said:

Large doses of melatonin do NOT aid sleep -- they might cause your oversensitive brain to wake up, instead. I found when I took more than 2mg of melatonin, I was weepy in the morning. If you get this or a paradoxical reaction (waking) or are dopey in the morning, it's a sign you're taking too much.

 

[Mimi79]

Thank you @Shep

Yesterday, I updosed a little bit (was at 40.5mg, upped to 41,625mg) and today the symptoms lessened a lot. Tonight, I feel pretty good. Some symptoms left, but way more manageable than during the last 4-5 days. 
I will stay on this dose for few weeks to stabilize (I will wait after Christmas) then I will restart my taper. I’m thinking of trying a taper slower then the Brassmonkey, but faster then Microtaper. Maybe something like 5% every 4 weeks. I didn’t have any symptoms during the first 3 cuts, so I think Brassmonkey is a little bit too fast. And this wave started during my period, I know it is always a rough time for me. If I cut only once a month, it will be easier to avoid cutting during my periods.
 

I think I will avoid Melatonin, as I don’t have sleep problems often. It’s always around my period, so maybe I could take it only during this part of my cycle. 
 

I know I have to find ways to drink more water. I’ve always hated water. It has no taste, and I don’t feel thirsty. I want to drink more, but I just forget to do so. I have to change this habit, as I’m prone to UTI and this last year was the worst as I’ve had 4 UTI during the last 12 months. Normally, I have maybe 1 UTI per year. 
 

So my goal is to stabilize during the next weeks. 

Thank you for your help! So much appreciated!

 

Mimi79

[Shep]

Thanks for the update, Mimi. Glad you're feeling better.

 

You may want to check out some options for getting liquids in you such as adding a bit of fresh lemon or lime to your water. Coconut water blended with frozen berries can also be very good. It doesn't have to be just plain old water. 

[Rosetta]

Unsweetened cranberry juice will help prevent UTI.  It’s very bitter, but you can drink something else afterward.  Avoiding sugar helps, too, but staying hydrated is the best.  

[Mimi79]

@Rosetta  @Shep Thank you very much for your tips. 

I have some difficulties to find unsweetened cranberry juice, and the sweetened one is too much sugar for me. 
I have bought D-mannose capsules. I think this is the ingredient that protect from UTI in the cranberries. I will take it everyday and see if it helps. And I will try very hard to drink more water! I’m proud of myself, today I drank two bottles of water. 
 

I received my Flu vaccine last week. Can it cause some symptoms ramping?
 

I still have some symptoms, this wave is not over. I have « not so good » days, some

« ok » days and some bad ones.  I will stabilize until after Christmas, then I hope I will be able to taper again. 
 

One thing I’m happy, I will do some teleworking, one week per month. It is new for me. Today was my first teleworking day, but, bad luck, a blackout happened! They were doing some repair job in my street! My daughter was on a homeschooling day.

 I went back at work to finish my workday, and my daughter missed half of her classes! It was a real bad luck, as black-out happens so rarely.

 

Thank you again and take care...

[Mimi79]

Hi everyone...
I don’t feel better, as this wave is the hardest since a while. I don’t want to updose again, as it will be a failure for me. I want to stick and I hope it will get better soon.

I have to confront a new symptom I didn’t have before: Depression and anhedonia. God, this is hard!
So much symptoms With a so small cut. Can’t believe how this drug is affecting me! I feel trapped...

Is it normal to have such a wave? I’ve only drop of 10% on 4 weeks (to 40,5mg) and I updose last week to 41.625mg.

 

Do I wait to stabilize or I updose again?

 

Thank you so, so much for your help! 

[Mimi79]

Another question... I started D vit 3-4 days ago. Can it cause symptoms to worsened? 

[Shep]

8 hours ago, Mimi79 said:

Another question... I started D vit 3-4 days ago. Can it cause symptoms to worsened? 

 

Please use the search feature or google "surviving antidepressants" + [name of supplement] before taking anything. 

 

Yes, vitamin D can cause symptoms to worsen. Please see:

 

Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol or calcitriol)

 

On 3/13/2011 at 10:33 PM, Altostrata said:

NOTE: Vitamin D is a daytime vitamin. Even if you take it in the morning, it can keep you awake at night. Be sure to start low and don't take too much.

 

[Altostrata]

On 12/3/2020 at 10:18 AM, Mimi79 said:

Depression and anhedonia.

 

Hello, Mimi. How do you feel this symptom?

[Leila]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:34 AM, Mimi79 said:

Un'altra domanda ... ho iniziato D vit 3-4 giorni fa. Può causare un peggioramento dei sintomi? 

I took vit. D3 for two months at high dosage (25000 ui) every two weeks because I had deficiency (my value was 19 and the range starts from <30) as my doctor suggested. I didn't understand immediatly that it made issues worse (expecially tension of nerves). Now I take vit. d3 at smaller dosage; I started from 6 drops (about 1000 ui) and I'm planning to updose to 12 drops (about 2000 ui) daily.

 

I'm cheering for your stabilization! Be strong!💪

[Rosetta]

Hi, Mimi.  Thinking of you.  Hold on as best you can.  All waves end.  Anhedonia is really hard to endure, but   I think if you have the option of taking walks, you will find a few things that are somewhat interesting even just a little. You need sunlight and physical activity.  At times, the results are not immediate.  Keep walking everyday.  
 

💜Rosetta

[Mimi79]

@Rosetta,

Thank you so much! You are right. Each time I take a walk, I feel better after. I walked with one of my colleagues yesterday, on our lunch time, and it was snowing softly. It was beautiful!

I think anhedonia is a little bit better right now. I have some intrusive thoughts, but not to bad. I hope this is a sign that this wave is coming to an end...

This part of the year is the worst in our Nordic country. The days are short and there isn’t a lot of sun. I think it is affecting me...

[Shep]

Glad to read you're feeling better, Mimi.  You may want to bookmark your last post as a reminder that these waves do come to an end. It sounds like you're learning to surf the waves now. If you can do that when the days are short, you have a lot to look forward to when the weather gets better. 

[Mimi79]

I’ve talked too fast! This wave has more to teach me. Intrusive thoughts are back with a vengeance. Hard to cope with it, as it is what I hate the most. Each time I have intrusive thoughts, I am convinced that I will be stuck with it forever. I’m so afraid!

I hope it will end soon...

[ChessieCat]

On 12/12/2020 at 10:57 PM, Shep said:

You may want to bookmark your last post as a reminder that these waves do come to an end.

 

Or post up a note somewhere that you will see it.

[MarieR]

1 hour ago, Mimi79 said:

 Each time I have intrusive thoughts, I am convinced that I will be stuck with it forever. I’m so afraid!

I hope it will end soon...

Hello, Have you ever watched any of Dr. Amy Johnson's YouTube videos? She speaks to things like this and I have found her so helpful.

[Mimi79]

@MarieR Thank you for your tips.

Did you have some Intrusive thoughts you too?

2 hours ago, MarieR said:

She speaks to things like this and I have found her so helpful.

She speaks about intrusive thoughts?

[MarieR]

 

[MarieR]

Oh yes! I had anxiety issues before going on meds, but since being off, they are like my former problem on steroids. So much more invasive and challenging to navigate. I've tried everything, and Dr. Amy's work around the inside out paradigm is the first thing to really give me hope. The bottom line: we can't control our thinking...it is energy that moves through us as part of being human. It's like the weather. But, it is always changing. It will change. We don't need to do anything about it other than know we are simply experiencing our thinking in each moment. It's all just thoughts that come and go if we allow them to. They don't mean anything. And the feelings we have are directly related to those thoughts. Period. All we can ever do is experience our thinking. That's how we are designed. If this particular video isn't what you are looking for, there are many others on YouTube. She also has a podcast called Changeable. I actually did just complete her 6 week course and am now part of her graduate community. However, this isn't necessary in order to get the support you need. Her videos on YouTube, podcast and Facebook page all contain lots of free and helpful information. I hope it helps!

[Shep]

 

You may also find comfort in this post from benzo buddies. It's about benzo withdrawal, but it could be from any psychiatric drug withdrawal: 

 

Benzo Lies That Have Been Busted

 

If any of your intrusive thoughts are telling you any of these lies, just recognize them as lies and not worth engaging in. Some intrusive thoughts are nonsense ( @MarieR that's a great video you posted) and some intrusive thoughts are really negative and make us doubt ourselves. But these are all withdrawal lies and best to let these thoughts pass like clouds in the sky. Don't engage in them. 

[Mimi79]

Hi @Shep and @MarieR

The symptom i have, if I try to describe it, is a kind of hyper awareness OCD-like symptom. like if I have to pay constant attention to the sensation of my clothes on my skin. I cannot just let it go. I am forced to pay constant attention to it. It is overwhelming! And it makes me panick, as I am afraid of being stuck with it forever. 
Yesterday and today are worst than ever. I have difficulties to work and concentrate. And I see Christmas coming and don’t know how I will be able to cope...

I would like to calm myself, but don’t know where to start. It is so intense!!!

 

Thank you all for your help!

[MarieR]

Hello!

I can so relate to what you're going though. I have been having similar obsessive thoughts--for me it is about how certain parts of my body feels and what it means. For the last three months it has been my throat and swallowing. Before that it was my left arm. I firmly believe it is part of withdrawal and readjusting to not having meds in the system, and even though it has been 21 months off for me, I'm thinking that there is still time for healing to happen. A few things to consider: you are perfectly mentally healthy under all of this--we are both just believing our thinking. We can't control our thoughts, but if we step back and see them and our emotions as energy just moving through us without focusing so much on the content of thought it helps. Also, NOTHING lasts forever. This WILL pass. Thinking of you,

Lynn

[MarieR]

One more thing. Don't worry about how you will manage Christmas. The only time you have any ability to be active in is right now, In each minute that unfolds. You've managed hard things before. You'll manage Christmas as it unfolds.

[Mimi79]

Thank you so much @MarieR!

I’m so happy to find someone who live the same thing. 
I know it is probably temporary, because I had this symptom last February for the first time, for 3 weeks, then it fades by itself, without doing nothing about it. It came back during a rough wave in May, for maybe 2-3 weeks, then it faded away by itself within 1 day! I remember feeling that it was lifting and a peace and calm feeling was coming after. It didn’t come back until last week. I naively thought that I was done with this symptom.

[Mimi79]

But even with this experience in my pocket, I still think that I am stuck with it forever.

I’m so afraid!

 

@Shep The link about negative neuro plasticity is talking to me. How can I avoid to fall in this trap?

[MarieR]

So, the only experience I have here is personal, and a little research. I'd always defer to the moderators. But, here's the thing. As humans, we are going to have a range of emotions, thoughts and experiences. All of which are basically not under our control. The reason I wanted to go off of the meds was because I was tired of feeling flat emotionally. I'm not going to lie, there have been many times that I seriously considered going back on meds because the intensity of some of the feelings was more than I wanted. But, they do pass. Our experiences always are changing. Nothing stays the same. And our bodies are miraculous. They are working towards balance for us. We've put strong chemicals in our systems, innocently, but strong chemicals nonetheless. Our systems are working in the best way to restore us to health. It might not feel like it many days, but they ARE. And the fact that things come and go for both of us is evidence that our systems can change and improve. But our bodies need time. And, we make the work harder by again, innocently, paying attention to many things that make us more stressed, dwelling on things that unsettle us, and panicking when we don't need to. I can say this because it's what I'm doing...daily. I can't control it. But, every time I AM able to step back a little and just observe my thoughts, understanding that they are just energy and NOT a prediction of my future or current reality, it helps. One thing I have decided to do for myself is NOT read anything that causes any worry about healing from this. There are plenty of people out there who have. Our experience is brought to life, moment to moment, by our thinking. That is the only place experience comes from. And while I can't control my thoughts, I'm choosing to not add anything to my brain that makes the situation worse. : )

[Mimi79]

@MarieR I would like so much to be able to do like you, being able to step forward and just be the observer. I don’t know where to begin to be able.

[Mimi79]

I am so convinced that I will be stuck like this forever! It surprises me how this feeling is strong. I’m so desperate!!!