Melissa03: paroxetine / Paxil WD

[Colonial]

1 hour ago, Heath said:

As for me when I have stop taking ssri and then reinstated it takes around 4 to 8 months to stabilize depending on how big a dose change and how long nervous system was in distress and how I would start the reinstatement.

 

Yes, I had to hold for 7 months, only really felt like a Human being again at 6 months even though I saw improvement after holding for about 6 weeks.

I think your just expecting too much too soon.

 

12/27/15 7.2mgs  8/4/16 6.8mgs,

As you can see, I dropped from 25 mgs to 7.2 in only one year, along with a wellbutrin taper, It was simply too much.

Your just adjusting to a major drop of a CT, Plus a reinstatement thats still a 50% drop from your original dose that was only March of 2019.

Never CT'd but even I had to hold for that long, since the double WD did me in.

 

[brassmonkey]

Hi Melissa-- No you are not in poopout, but you have a good case of Withdrawal Syndrome brought on by all the big/fast changes you've made over the past year. Right  now your body is screaming out for stability by causing all sorts of symptoms.  Those symptoms will subside and calm down as your body stabilizes, but that is going to take some time. Right now you seem to be adding in a good amount of "secondary fear" by fighting your symptoms.  That fear is making them worse. We advocate a technique referred to as AAF (Acknowledge, Accept, Float) there is a lot of information about it trough out the site that a site search will find.  I suggest reading up on it and starting to practice.

 

Tinnitus is a very frustrating symptom and a total pain to have to live with.  In ADWD is is caused by the drugs affecting the nerves and will come and go in waves and windows. Fighting against it will only make it worse. Being drug induced it is not going to harm your ears or hearing.  Some degree of tinnitus is common in most people, but it just becomes "background noise" and can be ignored, but it can be really hard to ignore when in a wave. Music, television, a white noise generator all can help to cover it up while the wave progresses. 

 

Colonial and the other posters have been giving some really good advise, so do take what they are saying to heart. Things will get better it's just going to take a lot of time.

[Melissa03]

Right now it feels just like before reinstatement,so I wonder does this reinstatement work ,cause I would probably have these waves without the reinstatement. Since I am back on drug I wonder are these 6 months of suffering for nothing. Am I already in protracted wd?

[Melissa03]

Should I be prepared that my healing will last years and that my next taper will be  rough ?

[Colonial]

 

Yes, You are in protracted withdrawal, that is the reason You reinstated, to help alleviate symptoms.

As we discussed, that does not mean You won't have windows and waves, and the waves don't mean the reinstatement isn't working.

 

I'm not sure if You could have a hard and fast rule of how long a person needs to have symptoms before it is considered "protracted".

 

Yes, healing will continue for years but will be contingent on how long You wait before You begin to taper, and how fast You taper once You begin, and most importantly, if You make Your symptoms worse by personal choices.

If You say, for a THEORY: If you waited 6 months until September to stabilize before You begin to taper, and then did 10% each 6 weeks, with longer holds for illness or stressful periods, you can put those parameters into the WD Chart and have an idea how long the taper will take.

 

There's no reason to "assume" Your next taper will "tough" by necessity.  But your worrying about things ahead of time is what is going to delay your healing and make Your taper harder by the increased underlining anxiety that will increase your symptoms.

A good idea would be to work on the symptom self help sections for the next 4 months, and re evaluate where you are and how you feel then.

Your trying to look too far ahead and want answers to questions that no one can answer because they are contingent on How You act in these stabilization months.

 

[Erell]

49 minutes ago, Melissa03 said:

Should I be prepared that my healing will last years and that my next taper will be  rough ?

 

Nobody can predict how long the process will take. All we can say, from all the testimonies, is that it will be very slow and gradual.

 

In this sentence, it sounds like you're adding fears to your situation : as nobody can see the future, better to focus on the present.

 

For now, you're  in a stabilisation process after a reinstatement.

Have you taken a look to Symptoms and Selfcare section ? Lot of great tips to learn there

 

I know it is difficult dear, this process can be rough. But you can make it

 

Take care ❤️

 

[Melissa03]

So what a 'fun' day it was. I missed a deadline on work due to my condition and one girl on work started a fight cause of it (online meeting where all our coleagues were) Usually I would replay normally but today I couldnt speak-my voice became shaky and I was on the edge of tears and left the meeting. After that i cut my hand on glass and it didnt stop bleeding for hours. I really dont know how I survived today. I am not going to work,we are working from home due to corona virus but I don-t know once I got back in the office how to manage that cause even concentrating from home is rough enough. 

 

 

[Colonial]

 

At least the working from home allows significant breaks away from the stressful but unavoidable interaction that comes with being in an office setting.

That is one positive silver lining during this Pandemic that's taking so many lives.

 

It's helpful to remember that the WD is temporary but loosing someone is not.

Everyone is under a lot of stress right now.

Perhaps the other woman recently lost someone they knew like many of us have.

 

Just let it wash over your back, if You can, and remember just about everyone is "compromised" right now in one way or another.

Don't take it personally, or You will allow it to impact Your symptoms.

Hugs 🙂

[Hanna72]

Hi @Melissa03

Just wanted to check on how you are doing?

Sending good vibes your way🥰

[Melissa03]

Hey Hanna  Thanks on checking on me  Your story gives me so much hope.

 

I am not very good-dealing with my anxious thoughts. I am so scared and anxious about my current symptoms,about future tapering how it will go,how long it will take,will I need to give up my dreams of having a family cause of this drug,cause being pregnant and on this drug is not an option. How it will affect my health,cause whole my life I have been a health anxious and this is like my worst nightmare coming true. So a lot of dark thinking and trying somehow to deal with it,but currently is not going too well.

[Hanna72]

I am sorry that you are feeling this way, I know how you feel. 
Is there anyway you can try to feed your mind on finding tools to lessen your anxiety. I have been reading on how to stay in the present moment. It is a practice that you can do even just for a few minutes every day. I have to do it myself, to find new coping skills for my anxiety. 
Fearful thoughts will only make us more anxious, and if we are going to be better, we need to do the work. 
Please don’t think about the future tapering, you have to focus on one day at a time. I know it is hard, and scary, but you need to change your mindset, and put positive thinking in your thoughts. 
Look at it this way....there are so many people that have gone off these drugs with great success. Put those stories in your mind, avoid listening to negativity. And tell yourself that yes you will be writing your own success story someday💪
Hugs to you🥰
 

[Zeena]

@Melissa03 i have been reading your post and feel for what you are having to go through. it is hard but it is not impossible. You will eventually see some light at the end of the tunnel. I have been taking care of my 70's year old mother who has been battling with Pax and clonozepam withdrawal since Sept 2019. You can read her experience and dosage below in my intro notes. 

she went cold turkety in Sept 2019 and surprisingly didn't show any reverse symptoms until jan 2020. Having read the impact of re-instating her dosage of pax and clonezepam, i had little hope mainly due to her age. so i began researching alternatives, tried to look into Traditional chinese medicine, naturopath and ayurvedic medicines. Took me a very long time and then i stumbled upon this research https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/acm.2010.0778

Desperate to help mum, contacted the authors of this paper who are still leading doctors in psychiatry. After getting some re-assurance from them, i started giving Manasamitra Vataka as prescribed by one of the authors of this research paper. it how now been 3 weeks since she took this and it has helped in her sleep a lot (not so much her anxiety and lack of interest). Before taking this she was getting no more than 2 hours of sleep and now she gets 5 hours. She was prescribed other herbs to take which she is taking now but it takes times. 

Have a read through this and see if it can be of any help to you. 

In her case because she was off Pax and clonozepam for 6 months, the doctor recommended her to not to restart it but in your case i believe since you are already on Pax, it is certainly not wise to stop it and take this herb. He did mention that this ayurvedic medicine and the treatment can still be taken as it will help wean off quicker. 

I have also realised that not one size fits all and so this is just me sharing what i found to help my 70 year old mom. 

I would highly recommend some kind of meditation and long walks in early hours of morning. 

I pray you recover soon and believe that you will get better...persevere 

[Melissa03]

Hello,I have an urgent question. I have 20 mg pills ,and I cut them in half to get 10 mg. I am still waiting the scale and dont now when it ll arrive due to this lock down . I now got the answer From one group that that could be uneven - that one side could be heavier than the other ,is that true ? 

 

Also about grinding the pills , also from this group there are answers that I can't just shave them  when I begin to taper,cause fillers and active ingredient are uneven on pill. How to do this right,I am so confused ? I don't have liquid here and weighting is only option. 

[Colonial]

3 hours ago, Melissa03 said:

could be uneven - that one side could be heavier than the other ,is that true ? 

 

You need to check with the manufacturer of the particular pill, through your physician if possible.

Most manufacturers do a good job distributing the medication but their is no guarantee.

What  is the Name of the Company and what country of manufacture is on your bottle?

[brassmonkey]

Reinstating at 10mgai after over five months at "0" is a bad idea.  That dose is way too much. I would suggest 1mgai or 2.5mgai at the most. Because you are cutting up a tablet the 2.5mgai is going to be the easiest to get, as that would be 1/8 of a tablet. Cutting up a tablet in this manner is a very inaccurate method because the pieces are never the same size.  This means that the dose is never the same size. But until you get a scale it is the best method you've got, unless you try making your won liquid.

 

Sometimes there will be some immediate relief from a reinstatement, but it takes a minimum of four to twelve days for the drug to become effective. During that time you would experience a lot of different symptoms. After that it takes a long time for the body to stabilize.  You will need to hold at this level for a long time to let things stabilize, probably six months or more before you can start to taper.

 

The idea that the Active Ingredient is not evenly distributed through out the tablet is a myth. Although we don't trust them all the reputable manufacturers of these drugs go to great lengths to make a quality product and the international regulations on their manufacture are very strict. Several years ago there were some suspect pills being manufactured by unlicensed companies in India, but everything I have found says they were shut down and the pills destroyed. I would not worry about it.

[brassmonkey]

Hi Melissa-- how is the reinstatement working out?

[Melissa03]

Hello Tom,

 

I am better,but still not back to old myself. I have some emotional ups and downs and some physical symptoms are still there- I wonder will they ever go away. I changed my diet and I am trying to eat as healthy as possible and I also take suplements. When I begin to taper I am going to use your method -i am still so scared about this process how it ll go,but I see most ppl have sucess with this method. 

[brassmonkey]

Quite a few of our members are using the Brassmonkey Slide Method with great success. It may sound complicated when reading about it, but it is pretty straight forward.  What do you need to know about it?

[Melissa03]

I have found this calculator,is it accurate? http://www.taperoff.co/

I dont have liquid here,so my option is scale and nail file. I can just grind it in the begining without need to put it in the capsule? When tablet become too small I can make a powder and capsule then?Cause I know raw powder is not good for stomach.

I don't have questions about calculator for this first year. I see later it becomes harder to split parts but I guess I ll have plenty of time till I reach that level to ask you about that.

Now I am at 10 mg,just spliting in half my 20 mg pills,since my scale didnt arrive yet. Can this splitting do some harm,cause maybe I don-t take complitely same doses every day? I guess there must be some very small diferences.

When to know I am ready for taper?I guess in the begining I should start really small to see how I ll handle that and to check  am I ready for taper?Whan can I expect of this method and taper,in what level it will be hard? I am an engineer and have quite demanding job.

 

[brassmonkey]

That's a very nice calculator, thank you for posting the link.  I used a 2.5% reduction and 2 week hold and it showed a proper Brassmonkey Slide.  Like most calculators it has a problem when it gets to The Endgame Taper. Most scales can't weigh accurately below 4mgpw so that causes a problem, also the reductions are so small that they overlap and round badly. I am in the process of writing an article on this subject, but you won't be getting there for a a while so it's no problem yet.

 

The raw powder often tastes pretty nasty so it is hard to take by itself. Using the capsules is the best way. In an emergency it is possible to wrap the powder in a small piece of toilet tissue, twist it into a small ball and swallow that.

 

Trying to file off the right amount is a total pain to do.  It is easiest to crush the pills into powder and weigh out the amount you need from the "stock pile".

 

Splitting your pills is fine on a temporary basis, but it is inaccurate.  It's okay until your scales arrive, but when they do switch to weighing them.

 

When you have felt stable for several weeks it's okay to start your taper.  I'd go with a straight Brassmonkey Slide to start. That would be 2.5% a week for four weeks then an additional two week hold.  This gives 10% every 6 weeks which is a good taper speed.  There are always going to be some symptoms from a taper. They usually show up a few days after each drop and should resolve before the next reduction.  Using the Brassmonkey Slide should keep symptoms at a minimum.

[Melissa03]

Thank you so much Tom for your answers. It is such a relief to have someone to guide you through this even online cause nobody believes me how hard it is to quit this drug. I ll order empty capsules now.

[Melissa03]

I have a problem with scale cause of this corona virus- I don't think it ll arrive . In case that I need to make my own liquid,can you tell me how safe is that ? In what ml water to put it,what suringe to use ? Can I be sure that it will all desolve in water ,and how to take right amount ? Will powder mostly go to the bottom? 

[Altostrata]

Making a liquid is quite safe, many people have done this to taper off paroxetine, see Tips for tapering off Paxil (paroxetine)

[brassmonkey]

The first thing we need to know is what tablets do you have? What is their strength as listed on the package?

[Melissa03]

I have 20 mg tablets,currently I cut them in half to get my 10 mg. 

[brassmonkey]

That's good. If you can get a 10mL syringe it would be easiest, if not any other syringe would work as long as the markings are clear.

 

To make the calculations easiest we want to make a liquid that has a 1:1 dilution ratio. That means there will be 1mg of medication for each 1mL of liquid. Paxil dissolves very nicely in water, which makes things easier.  There are two ways to go: us a whole tablet and dissolve it in 20mL of water  and take half of it for each dose, or cut the tablet in half and use 10mL of water and take all of it for each dose. The first way will be the most accurate.

 

It's best to use water that is slightly warm. Measure the water into the container you want to use and drop in the tablet. Now let it sit for about an hour to give it time to dissolve. Shake it up a few times while waiting. All the filler material from the tablet will settle to the bottom of the container. That's okay the medication will be dissolve in the water. If you want you can shake it all up and take it along with the dose, but you don't have to. Taking half of the 20mL or all of the 10mL will give you a full 10mg dose of the medication.

 

If you can get the 10mL syringe and want to use the half tablets it is possible to mix things right in the syringe. Pull the plunger all the way out. leave the cap on the tip so it won't leak and carefully fill the syringe with water to the 10mL mark.  Drop in the half tablet and gently insert the plunger just enough so it won't leak. Let it sit for an hour, shaking it occasionally. When you are ready to take the dose remove the cap and hold it so the tip is up and carefully squeeze out the air bubbles.  Shake it up and for now you would take the entire contents. When you start to taper you would squeeze out a set amount before taking the rest.

 

Your will need to do this for four to six weeks so your body can get use to using the liquid.  We need to see how your body reacts to the liquid before we can start to taper. Once settled we can start to do the taper by reducing how much of the liquid you take.

[Melissa03]

@brassmonkey I found some scale in local store- it is 0.01 g,but there is some unknown measurement type with 3 decimals. Problem is,it is very inconsistent it shows 0.225,0.230,0.220,when I put it multiple times. Sorry to bother you about this ,but I want to do this right and this is so frustrating. So what do you suggest to do,to use this scale or to make liquid ? I am worried of liquid reaction on my stomach. I would like to use this period to see how I will react on taper cause I still work From home cause of virus. 

[brassmonkey]

The scales really need to measure 0.001g. There usually are several different modes the scales can work in but they are for weighing different things like jewelry and won't work for medications.

 

All the scales available will show a little variation with the same object. Because of the fillers in the tablets it makes it so the variations don't effect the dose all that much. Divide the strength of the tablet as listed on the package by the total weight of the tablet and it will tell you how much medication is in 1mg (mgpw) of tablet. So if the reading is off by a few mgpw  it doesn't make a lot of difference at the higher doses. When you get to the Endgame Taper it will matter, but there are ways to work with it.

[Melissa03]

So I just came back from the talk with my new psychiatrist ,I only went there cause I needed prescription. Let's remember my old one didn't believe me and basically kicked me out of the office in the most horrible spike of my withdrawal when I was basically suicidal. So this new one, actually said it is possible I am dependent on ssri ,it is rare he hasn't seen it in 20 years of his job, but he believed me. I have been withdrawal stable for some weeks and planing to start my taper ,but he told me not to touch anything for some 3-4 months more. After he said what most psychiatrist says to cut it in quarter and after some months quit ,but I know better now. It was actually a bit relief to talk with some Dr who actually believed me what was going on,just to share this huge burden with someone.

[Heath]

That’s great Melissa so now he he’s on your side . Once you get going with him as in a future visit you can let him know you would like to go slower. It sounds like he understands so he shouldn’t have a problem with going slower. You might even give some examples of you past faster withdrawals that didn’t work . And as you taper you can give examples of how much better it works tapering slow. That’s what I am going to have to do Monday at my visit. I’m going to have to remind him of past withdrawals that he suggested that didn’t work and tell him about the 10 % taper I did the last 6 months that went well. I m going to be asking him for liquid to taper on down .  I have to select my words carefully. I’m glad you found  understanding dr even though he doesn’t fully understand that’s a rare find! 

[Melissa03]

Thank you @Heath! It is encouraging to hear that 10% taper is going well

[ChessieCat]

  

3 hours ago, Melissa03 said:

@Gridley, you could use a scale all the way to 0.1 mg? Is it some special sensitive scale ?

 

I know BrassMonkey managed to was a very small amount with his Gemini-20 scale.

 

It is possible to weigh 4mgpw (milligram pill weight) which is 0.004g on the scale.  That is the weight of the powdered tablet.  That is not the dose amount.  Different tablets weigh different amounts and contain different doses.  You need to do a calculation to work out what the mgpw and mgai (milligram active ingredients) are for your tablets.

 

Please see this topic which explains how to calculate what dose is contained in your tablet.

 

using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses

[Melissa03]

Hello to all,I need your advice and opinion. I have made 3 cuts since last time i checked in. First two were manageable,but this third not so much. I have stomach issues (every day diarrhea) and anxiety which is higher in the morning and moderate through the day but doesn't let go. Also last night I haven't slept at all and I vomited this morning. It feels like I am slowly going back to hell. I used standard 10% rule. It's been a week now since third cut. What would you suggest me to do next ? To updose and make smaller cuts or to wait it to pass ? @brassmonkey

[Erell]

Hello Melissa, 

 

can you please update your signature to reflect the recent changes (with dates of drops) ?

 

On 6/8/2020 at 12:29 AM, Melissa03 said:

I also take suplements. 

Please include the supplements in your signature.

 

Are you using the Brassmonkey slides method or did you do 10% drops ?

Everybody is not able to do 10% drops, it is important to find the pace that suit to your CNS.

 

Lot of folks here taper with smaller percentages : I used to do 3% drops during my Paroxetine taper.

 

It is also possible that your CNS needs some rest : you reinstated in March 2020, and started tapering in June 2020, right ?

 

On 5/5/2020 at 9:25 PM, brassmonkey said:

 You will need to hold at this level for a long time to let things stabilize, probably six months or more before you can start to taper.

 

Take care ☀️

[Colonial]

Hello again, Melissa! 💖

 

As Erell said, It is hard to say without knowing the exact dates and drop amounts.

If by: " 3 drops since last check in" you mean June 25th, than Your probably dropping too often and or 10% might be too much, or a combo of both.

But I suspect You may not have waited long enough after reinstatement for system stabilization and started Your taper too soon.

If you can update with the exact dosages and drop dates and supplements it will help fill in the picture.

 

Great hearing from You! 😎

[Melissa03]

I can't find via phone where to edit my signature so I ll put it here:so I have been stable whole June so I started my taper on 3.July-9 mg,  4 weeks later, 31.July 8.1 mg. These two drops were completely manageable , no symptoms. So 4 weeks later 28. August 7.3. I had morning anxiety and stomach issues which seemed to had peak on day I posted -7th Septembar and it seems that things are starting to settle down. I am using magnesium ( game changer for me ) ,omega 3, vitamin E, selenium, and imuno zink ( Vit C + Zink).

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Melissa03