Melissa03: paroxetine / Paxil WD

[Melissa03]

What is 'normal' symptom appearance after a drop and what could be sign to slow down ? What do you suggest me to do next ?I wanted to see at what rate I can taper and I am thinking to switch definitely to Brass monkey slide. Thank you ❤️

[brassmonkey]

I wrote this in answer to your PM and want to post it here so you have a good record.

 

If the 10% every four weeks was a test, then we now know that it is too much too fast. The 10% itself was probably okay because of the low symptoms for the first two reductions. But the four weeks didn't leave enough time for all the symptoms to resolve before the new batch showed up.  Even if you didn't feel  the symptoms they are there in the background and need to settle before the next drop. For speed and lack of symptoms the standard Brassmonkey Slide of 2.5%  week for four weeks and an additional two week hold is a great option.

 

The symptoms you are getting right now are pretty standard and should resolve in a few weeks. I wouldn't try another reduction until they do.

 

[Melissa03]

Thank you so much for your answer and advice. Things are rough again today , so definitely when it settles I will try your method. 

[Colonial]

 

I'm pretty much like you Melissa, I can make a drop 2 or MAYBE 3 in a row every month and then it catches up with Me.

Personally I find I do better making drops LESS often over all.

I just do NOT do as well destabilizing my brain chemistry EVERY MONTH, Regardless how little it seems I'm dropping.

I think that may be true for others as well, the symptoms being part of not just how much your dropping but how often You change the level.

 

Watching both my own progress and others, it seems as if we all have a limit of what we can drop in any 3 categories:

In a month, how much we can cumulatively drop in 6 months, and how much we can drop in any given 12 month period.

And those cumulatives get "lower" the further out we expand, which is why WD takes so long.

It's more than just that your lowering the dosage cut, their comes a point the brain needs more time and it can only handle so much per block of time.

Maybe the Brassmonkey slide scale would work better!

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Colonial

[Melissa03]

Do you know about propranolol is it addictive? About sleeping issues what about antihistamines,are they addictive ? Can these two drugs be used occasionally when needed ? I am looking for alternatives for benzos since I would like to stay away from them.

[Erell]

Hello Melissa

 

As nobody can predict how a drug could affect you, the advice here is to keep it simple and try to be patient and use non drug coping skills.

Our destabilised CNS can be very sensitive.

 

You might find these threads interesting :

 

1. -antihistamines-for-withdrawal-insomnia-diphenhydramine-doxylamine-hydroxyzine/

 

2. -beta-blockers-propranolol-metopropol-atenolol-etc/

 

 

Take care  ☀️

 

 

 

[Melissa03]

Thank you Erell❤️

[Heath]

@Melissa03 how are you doing? Hope you a feeling ok !

[Colonial]

@Melissa03 I was just thinking of you last night myself as well. Hope all is well.

[Melissa03]

Hello my dear friends @Colonial and @Heath :)

 

Well I can honestly say that Paxil is a beast even with a ultra slow taper. I see last time I checked in I was struggling  after third drop. I stabilized after few weeks and I continued my taper in late October. It happened again in December after drop again- I can not say I was in some kind of wave, but rather it depended from day to day with having more bad days that good days. I struglled with sleep for more than a month,depression,irritability,waves of anxiety... but it could be also what I am reading these days-holidays and slipping with food and alchocol. Its been almost a year since my horrible crush. I can not believe what I have been through but I am in acceptance with it-I will struggle for some time,some days will be unpredictable bad but I want to be drug free for good and I am going to do this right. I am forever grateful to you two-if it wasnt for you and your PMs convinsing me to continue with my reinstatement(it took good 3 months for those who read)-I would be in endless misery or polidrugged. Thank you my friends :)

[Heath]

Good to hear from you Melissa and glad you are doing ok!  Sorry you had to go through some waves recently it is tough! And yes the holidays family food and stress 🤪. I have a habit of nicotine, working late and gogogo. I know at some point I am going to have to slow down and practice good sleep habits. We have come a long way !  It’s great isn’t to acknowledge and accept it ! Yes I know wd is tough I’m not saying it’s not but when I acknowledged that this was all wd and then accepted it , it sure made it easier for me! I still struggle with letting feelings and thoughts float on by when I’m in a wave . I was in a bit of a wave in October and November. I learned a couple of things fortunately.

 

That 10% drops every 4 weeks is a little much for me. So when I’m ready to start again I will do the brass monkey slide.
 

And that when we start tapering be prepared to updose a little if need be before tapering! I was not. I didn’t have a 1 ml syringe.  So I updosed to previous dosage which  it did help me out of wave but it presented more problemsThe side effects came on like when we first started the meds. It’s kinda like i overshot my cns! Side effects are starting dying down . Hang in there and be well !

[Heath]

And Melissa you are very welcome for the support! That’s why we are here! I know when I need it y’all support me and am also thankful! 😀

[Melissa03]

Hello @brassmonkeyand other friends. I had to take antibiotic from Cipro family and i am having a setback and a ramp in mental symptoms. What do you suggest me to do, I have two more days of antibiotics and I need to take them. Is this setback only during time when antibiotics are taken or it can trigger long lasting wave? I am holding my taper cause of stressful situations that are covid related (not having it but in isolation cause of contact ) and cause of this antibiotics.

[Heath]

Hello @Melissa03  sorry you are not feeling well rt now. I agree with you keep it stable and hold for now . And don’t stop taking antibiotic unless you talk to dr. Last summer I went into a little wave during tapering lexapro and taking cipro. I don’t know exactly if cipro caused it or not . There were other factors involved. Rt now after a 4 month hold I had to take cipro again with keflex . As of know the antibiotics are Not causing me any cns instability. Do you think this could be more from the stress ? Or combination? You know you have to finish out antibiotics for your health  And for the stress try and relax and calming skills. This will pass you know it will! Hang in there! 

[brassmonkey]

There isn't really anything that can be done, except ride it out. As Heath pointed out it is very important to finish the course of antibiotics to get a handle on what ever they were prescribed for. It sounds to me like it is a temporary reaction and should calm down after you stop taking them. From what I seen the reaction to Cipro usually starts a week or more after the medication is complete, so this would be more like a wave caused by adding a medication and the stress that you are going through ATM.  

[Colonial]

I had bad reactions, as so many others, to Cipro pre WD.

There are so many problems with that med my medical practice doesn't even prescribe it any longer.

I don't know how long you've been on it, but as Brass pointed out many WD suffers see reactions AFTER they are done with the med, so this may just be the "normal" side effects of a very powerful drug.

 

[Aeroman]

On 2/17/2021 at 3:18 PM, Melissa03 said:

Hello @brassmonkeyand other friends. I had to take antibiotic from Cipro family and i am having a setback and a ramp in mental symptoms. What do you suggest me to do, I have two more days of antibiotics and I need to take them. Is this setback only during time when antibiotics are taken or it can trigger long lasting wave? I am holding my taper cause of stressful situations that are covid related (not having it but in isolation cause of contact ) and cause of this antibiotics.

Hello. I recovered from Lex w/D in 2012 and took Cipro in 2014.  A few days after my 10 day treatment, I had a mix of anxiety and depression for about a week or two.  A few months later, I had a psychotic/panic attack experience and I attributed it to Cipro. I was perfectly fine between 2012 and 2014.  Be careful taking Fluoroquinolones. 

[Longroadhome]

On 3/29/2020 at 3:42 PM, Melissa03 said:

Couldnt sleep at all previous two nights. I feel like I am dying and dont know how much i can take this. 

I wanted so badly to be drug free. I have been on this drug for the most part of my twenties and wanted to be off mostly cause i wanted to be mother one day . now all my future seems dark. 

i cant get out of the bed,i have severe insomnia. my thinking is so slow and i cant concentrate. my ears ring my eyes are weird. i have lost 15 kg and i am anoreksic now. i have terrible hair loss.

i am obsesed about finding suscesfull stories on this site. but more i read the more i am aware what i have done to myself. first taking this drug in the first place-when noone warned me that it is so addictive and that i probably will be on it for the rest of my life. secondly for not telling me to taper,just to cut pill on quaters.when i finally managed to be drug free i was hit by the prolonged wd and i am in hell-bigger hell that i have ever been,which can last for years. i am so traymatized by this,that even if i ever stabilize i doubt i will taper this. i am having this dark thoughts about who ll take care of me in the future when my parents die,will i end up in the mental institution. i cant believe what have i done to myself,sometimes i dream about never going to that dr and taking this pills. what are they studing at that faculty if they are so ignorant about what these drugs do to the people,how is possible they dont know?

@Melissa03

how is the hair loss is it still bad ? 
mine is very thin and continually breaking I can’t  use hair dye and its in very poor condition is yours like this ? 

[Melissa03]

Hey @Longroadhome,yes hair condition is bad,it's thin and weak and I lost a bunch of it,but what i noticed is that is falling out less than before as I gradually lower dose. 

[Melissa03]

I also read a lot about nutrition and plan to follow nutrition @Cocopuffz17is mentioning to see will it help my wd since we have same symptoms on drug and also after in wd.

[Longroadhome]

I tried this diet but couldn’t stomach it . It made me feel really sick unfortunately . I hope this doesn’t happen to you. 
good luck and thank you for your reply. 

[Melissa03]

Hello friends, I need your guidance again. So i am having severe set back from antibiotics and I am trying not to panic. @Shep it seems you have some knowledge about cipro (i didn't have problems with it before wd,but my cns is severely sensitive from paxil wd. to sum the information,I tapered fast paxil,crushed,reinstated after 3 months,took me 3 months to stabilise,after which i began slow taper.) I don't have benzo dependency cause i read you mentioned it was dangerous for people in benzo wd. What can I expect from this antibiotics crush,how long it can take for me to stabilise? Is this crush different that previous ad problems , what can I expect from stories you have seen? I am still on paxil,but holding my taper. @brassmonkey can you also tell me your opinion and of course others who have some knowledge about this. I am alergic to several types of antibiotics and i don't have that much option for UTI. Cipro was always fine with it. Just explaining my antibiotic background.

 

[Cocopuffz17]

15 minutes ago, Melissa03 said:

Hello friends, I need your guidance again. So i am having severe set back from antibiotics and I am trying not to panic. @Shep it seems you have some knowledge about cipro (i didn't have problems with it before wd,but my cns is severely sensitive from paxil wd. to sum the information,I tapered fast paxil,crushed,reinstated after 3 months,took me 3 months to stabilise,after which i began slow taper.) I don't have benzo dependency cause i read you mentioned it was dangerous for people in benzo wd. What can I expect from this antibiotics crush,how long it can take for me to stabilise? Is this crush different that previous ad problems , what can I expect from stories you have seen? I am still on paxil,but holding my taper. @brassmonkey can you also tell me your opinion and of course others who have some knowledge about this. I am alergic to several types of antibiotics and i don't have that much option for UTI. Cipro was always fine with it. Just explaining my antibiotic background.

 

I’m sorry to hear of your wave with antibiotic use. What I have learned is how these antibiotics work is that they destroy bacteria in your gut, good or bad. I would check out a probiotic. I found a massive difference with probiotic use in my health. Schiffs digestive advantage - BC30 is the one I used. I hope this can be of some help to you. You got this! 

[Colonial]

Sorry about this.

 

I had a bad reaction to even Cipro ear drops after a regular Cipro reaction.

Of course, being ear drops, doctors find that hard to believe, just like anything about WD.

But poison anywhere in the system affects the entire system.

 

I had a horrible reaction to regular Cipro pre WD that lasted for a month, so it may be hard to tell what symptoms your having is a reaction to the med and what is WD flare up due to the reaction.

 

My worst reaction symptoms were about a week but it took a good month, so You are still within the "Normal" time frame of recovery, if there is such a thing. I realize that is a bit of an oxymoron.

 

I had a lot of Neurological issues. Made me autistic like. Could not process too much stimuli. Felt like bugs crawling on my skin and electrical shocks in hands and feet.

 

Continuing to hold your taper is a good idea. 

Hope your feeling better in the next month!

 

 

 

[Melissa03]

Also one more question,since my biggest issues are insomnia and racing thoughts,i have been using valerian drops for sleep regularly for month,once I took 0.25 mg xanax,and some herbal teas. Can I became dependant on herbs/ valerian drops? I don't know is this a ridiculous question,but i am currently scared of taking anything but also insomnia is making all my symptoms worse.

[Longroadhome]

@Melissa03

i have no personal experience with Cipro. 
but from reading others experience since being on this site you have to hold your taper and wait to stabilise . Stability will come but nobody will be able to tell you when this will happen. 
don’t  be tempted to mess with your dose or take anything. 
just wait it out accept the symptoms and use your coping tools to see it through. 
 

I had severe WD symptoms last July and really thought it was going to take me ages to stabilise but I was back and ready to taper again within 4 months . 
 

good luck 🤞  to you 

[Crochet]

Funny thing, I was about to review the information on Valerian root here, as I accidentally bought sleepytime extra - the extra being valerian.  

 

[Colonial]

25 minutes ago, Melissa03 said:

,i have been using valerian drops for sleep regularly for month,

 

Ooh...

 

Valerian has an affinity for GABA receptors, Some people don't gain sedative effects from valerian. Instead, they may become restless and sleepless. Long-term use of valerian may result in insomnia. One report of "addiction". 

 

Many thanks to @Punarbhava for those great links.

 

Any herb can have health consequences for all people even outside WD.

The risks are even higher for those with a sensitized system.

Supplement simply act differently in a system in free fall.

It's one of the reasons we do not recommend most of them.

 

This is why we respectfully ask if a member is going to add something to their routine, they add it to their signature line with the dose and start time just like the rest of the meds.  At any time herbs, like meds, can go paradoxical and it is hard to give a proper assessment if a supplement is involved and the info is not provided.

 

There was recently another situation where the side effects of a supplement was assumed to be an issue of WD and inter dose WD, when in reality once the person stopped the product, the issue resolved.

 

That's not to say you aren't having a reaction to the Cipro, You very well may be. But if you started the valerian around the same time as the Cipro it could be bigger part of the issue. If You only "present" having a reaction to an antibiotic but fail to leave out the Valerian, You may set yourself up for longer unnecessary suffering, since there is not much advice to give for an anti-biotic induced wave.

 

I realize "some" members do not like to report starting an herb because they know we don't recommend them.  I am not saying that is you, but you can see how not having a full picture can possibly delay good advice.  If I had known when You pm'd me both end of February and March 1st about the difficulty you were taking it I would have been able to give you better advice about this.

 

What were the exact dates of taking the Cipro for 8 days, (I remember you saying you skipped the last 2 dosages) and when did you start the Valerian, what dosages and ingredients?

 

Thank you

 

 

[Melissa03]

I took cipro from 14-21 February. I was already in some kind of mild wave. The night I stopped cipro after 8 days i stopped sleeping. I have always had trouble sleeping for a year already since my paxil crush so i didnt panic. But second night i had bad sleep too,third also. So i think i took that night 0.25 mg xanax and i slept well. Since the bad sleep trend continued and i didn't want to become dependant on benzo i searched for ? safe? option i took drops and they worked. This is not me not wanting to tell i use drops but me thinking is safe option and much better option that benzos. couldn't sleep for this month without some help,drops or teas, tried.I can take other symptoms ,but sleep deprivation i can't . If i can't sleep i have to take something for it - ride it out is not an option for this. So if my bad sleep continues what do you suggest me to do,what is 'safer' option? Benzos,teas,drops? It really blows my mind and makes me super anxious how everything is consider dangerous in wd and we didnt have trouble with it before What to do for the rest of the life ,to be scared of everything that is thought as safe options? Everything can set us back? What do you suggest to do now? Paxil - i am holding since end of January. Valerian drops - i took 20-30 drops as recommended for sleep for maybe 3 and half weeks ( but not every night -some nights I tried to go without anything but it left me with 0 sleep) To stop taking it or to taper it and how?And what in that case is safer option ,i also have chamomile and lavander tea which i haven't used yet. Thank you for your help!

[Melissa03]

Also i noticed ,i crushed last year 13. february like this year. Is this coincidence about time frame or some 12 month wave ? 

[Colonial]

8 minutes ago, Melissa03 said:

What to do for the rest of the life ,to be scared of everything that is thought as safe options?

 

The question is what are "safe" options.

Herbs are problematic for many.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Melissa03 said:

I took cipro from 14-21 February. I was already in some kind of mild wave. The night I stopped cipro after 8 days i stopped sleeping.

 

So the insomnia very well may be related to the "wave".

You state you have been "stable" on your Paxil since January.

The Insomnia could be part of the wave and not be related to the Cipro.

 

However your signature line has no medication update since last July, so I did not think you were actively tapering nor did You provide that info in Your pm's.

 

We would need you to update Your signature with what tapering you have done since July, dates and amounts, and what other over the counter products, herbs, etc you have taken since that time.  

 

The insomnia and the "ramp up" of mental symptoms may very well be from too fast a taper, aggravated now by a reaction to the Valerian or some other product consumed.

 

As you have stated you were able to take Cipro in the past, and you were already starting a wave in February from the January med drop, you may have just accidentally assumed the antibiotic to be responsible for more than it was.

 

If you have taken anything else over the counter, make sure that is listed as well.

 

 

[brassmonkey]

Valerian is usually pretty safe for a short time, but it can cause a paradoxical reaction for some people and be quite stimulating. It is a natural occurring SSRI that tends to lose it's effectiveness after a few weeks and enter a tolerance like state where continued use is needed just to maintain things as they are. At that point it needs to be tapered over an extended time to avoid WD. 

 

Other herbs such as chamomile and passion flower can be helpful. 

[Melissa03]

I updated my signature. I have been very careful with paxil, not going faster that recommended and listening to my body. Slide with lower drops every week resulted in mild wave- morning anxiety,but been sleeping good over all. Wanted to hold untill everything resolves. So if this is valerian drops,how do you sugest to taper it with beeing on it for less then 4 weeks? And what to use as the rescue for sleep? If I have to use benzos to get some sleep and taper it after paxil-I am fine with it,just I need advice which benzos are 'easier' to taper as I know xanax has short life and can be difficult to taper. I am sure Cipro contributed to ramp up in symptoms and insomnia as I havent felt this bad since my crush a year ago.

[Colonial]

 

3.July 9mg;31.July 8.1mg;28.August 7.3 mg;17 October 6.5 mg;14 November 5.9mg;12 December 5.3 mg; slide-9 January 5.1 mg-16January 5mg-23January 4.9mg.-mild wave holding.

14-21 Feb Cipro cause of strong UTI with tea mix for UTI

21 Feb insomnia started

22 Feb severe setback and wave

23 Feb 0.25 xanax

24Feb-20 March valerian drops for sleep (not every night)

 

The taper "MAY" be starting to catch up to you now that you are at the 5mg mark.

At this level symptoms can be even more harsh and people find they need to make smaller cuts and wait longer hold periods.

 

I also noticed you changed the method of tapering, from about monthly from July to November to the slide method in January. Some find the slide method much easier on their systems, others, like myself, don't do well with "near constant" changes.  

 

So you were already not doing well 2 weeks before the meds and some "tea mix".

The med and/or the "tea mix" was then added upon that.

 

My guess is the Valerian on top of the too fast taper and the "tea mix" and the Cipro may have prolonged the issue and could be causing the insomnia to become worse. Trying to separate symptoms that are an adverse reaction to an anti-biotic when already in a wave is difficult, but the Valerian is known to actually cause insomnia. 

 

I would discontinue the Valerian and hold the Paxil taper.

I would not recommend a benzo.

 

When the insomnia is bad, how much sleep are you getting a night?

 

 

[Melissa03]

Bad insomnia is 0 hours a night with running thoughts all the time like last night. So for how long to take the drops ? And how to taper them? You still think they are 'safer' then benzos?

[Colonial]

As we do not recommend herbs in WD specifically because they are so dangerous and tend to make people worse, I cannot offer a manner of tapering, you will need to research that and decide on a plan.

 

I never said the drops are "safer" than benzo's.

I do not think either benzo's or herbs are safe.