MollyMac: planning taper off 150mg Wellbutrin XL

[Hanna72]

Hi @MollyMac What I find helps me during those waves is to know that my brain is repairing itself. Though it’s not pleasant and frustrating, know that it is healing.

Enjoy your walk🙂
 

[MollyMac]

Thanks Hanna72. I can't remember a time when I didn't get those moments though. I worry that this is simply part of me! I really don't know if it was the meds or not.

[MollyMac]

1 hour ago, MollyMac said:

Thanks Hanna72. I can't remember a time when I didn't get those moments though. I worry that this is simply part of me! I really don't know if it was the meds or not.

 

Actually, I've come back to this thought. For years now I have suffered from moments that I call mood spasms, like a muscle in your leg goes into spasm - you can't stop it hurting or throbbing - it's just doing its thing. My brain goes into spasm - angry, upset, can't make my mind about anything at all, negative self talk, thoughts going faster and faster till I'm crying from frustration. That's what happened today. So, I wonder if it's the meds at all, or just me. The way I'm wired.

 

At least - a really fast walk helped me rebalance. I'm so glad it did - it's a horrible place to be and makes me a lousy, guilt-ridden parent. 

 

Not sure who I'm saying this to - I know the site is extraordinarily busy!

[MollyMac]

Ok, about a month in now. Had to delay going down by another quarter as I had to have a tooth removed and the anesthetic knocked me for six. So it will be 2 months of taking 3/4 of a tablet. Although, the pill cutting is so inexact heck knows why kind of amounts i'm actually getting. Waking up tense and upset and cross, from busy, frenetic dreams. Trying to remember to meditate to get back into a gentler mindset. 

 

I hope everyone out there is keeping their heads above water.

[MollyMac]

On 6/14/2020 at 1:08 PM, MollyMac said:

Hey all. Just keeping track of myself. I'm 10 days in. Agitated and just not in my skin. I had reached a place of meditating and some serenity. Now I'm all fast and unhappy. But - if I take the last quarter at 4.30 in the evening - why do I wake so abruptly and unhappy? It's instant release now so surely it's no longer in my system by then? 

 

Am going to try going for a walk to chill myself out. 

 

In case it's of any use to someone going down off Wellbutrin/Zyban - the reason I was waking so upset was because my body had been waiting too long for its next dose. I now take the last dose at 7.00pm. It has helped a bit. 

[MollyMac]

Hi me and whomever out there might get some help from this. It's July 20th so I've been on three quarters of a Wellbutrin/Zyban tablet since 30th May 2020. As seen above, there have been rocky times, but right now I have calm and just fine for 3 weeks approx. I'm still going to wait till August to drop the next quarter, but I have forgotten to take a quarter at least twice and have seen no real side effects. I will keep this diary to see if the chronic tiredness I went on the pills for comes back. So, for my own records - I do not and have not suffered from exhaustion in a long time. I haev not had an anxiety or mood spasm as I describe them in several weeks. Part of that is due to life being easier at the moment. I'm a single parent to 2, no support, working, I am too busy. Those are just words - they do not convey how daily life is too much. For the last week I had time off, no kids, no work, no dog, no cat, no cooking, cleaning - instead I've been in nature, walking, cylcing, chilling. End result -  I have been a calm, centred peace loving chilled out broad. So, while I know that's not real life- it's interesting to note that my mood can be utterly calm. Which makes me wonder - how much are any of us deeply affected by our environment. Seems so obvious - and frustrating, because there's not a lot we can do to change certain things about our lives. All the meditating , therapy, exercise and yoga in the world can't change the fact that I lead a life that is too much for me, with no fat to trim to make it quieter. 

 

I'm waffling. Guess I'm writing to my future self. Next time she has a tough moment.

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, MollyMac said:

All the meditating , therapy, exercise and yoga in the world can't change the fact that I lead a life that is too much for me

 

But the calming techniques, if incorporated regularly into our life, can help to keep the anxiety and stress levels down a bit in our body which means that we are better able to cope with what life throws at us.  It doesn't change what happens.  But we are able to learn how to respond instead of reacting.

 

This is how I see it helping us:

Instead of      oooooooooooooooooooooooo

it's more        ooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[MollyMac]

On 7/21/2020 at 2:08 AM, ChessieCat said:

 

But the calming techniques, if incorporated regularly into our life, can help to keep the anxiety and stress levels down a bit in our body which means that we are better able to cope with what life throws at us.  It doesn't change what happens.  But we are able to learn how to respond instead of reacting.

 

This is how I see it helping us:

Instead of      oooooooooooooooooooooooo

it's more        ooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

Hi ChessieCat, sorry for the delay in replying! You are absolutely right, and have an excellent sideline in visuals using Os.  I hope your journey to be off everything by mid 2021 is going ok? 

 

 So, to catch up this diary. Over a week ago I began skipping the middle 1/4 on alternating days. Once again am teary and agitated. Again, my life is too busy, so it's hard to tell the wood from the trees. But, for my own record I continue to not suffer from exhaustion and while I have had anxiety and self-doubt, I have not had an anxiety/mood spasm. The ones where it gets too much and I can't make it stop. Those are the reason I began to question Zyban/Wellbutrin. Now that I have cut it into 1/4s I can really see how it is a stimulant. 

[ChessieCat]

It is better to take the same dose/s at about the same time on a daily basis, regardless of the half life of a drug.  The brain likes consistency.

 

Please read Post #1 of this topic which explains how you can get the doses you need so you don't have to skip doses.

 

tips-for-tapering-off-wellbutrin-sr-xr-xl-zyban-buproprion

 

[MollyMac]

41 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

It is better to take the same dose/s at about the same time on a daily basis, regardless of the half life of a drug.  The brain likes consistency.

 

Please read Post #1 of this topic which explains how you can get the doses you need so you don't have to skip doses.

 

tips-for-tapering-off-wellbutrin-sr-xr-xl-zyban-buproprion

 

 

Thanks for that. I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by not skipping? A lot of my earlier posts on this thread are me discovering that in Ireland, where I am, I only have access to one kind of Zyban. I have gone from Prolonged release to immediate release by cutting these pills into 4. Then I dropped one 1/4. I've waited 2 months. Now I'm dropping another 1/4 one day in two. What are you suggestng instead?

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, MollyMac said:

Over a week ago I began skipping the middle 1/4 on alternating days.

 

This is what I was referring to.

 

48 minutes ago, MollyMac said:

I only have access to one kind of Zyban.

 

So you can only get extended release in Ireland?

 

Have you enquired if there are generics available in immediate release?

 

50 minutes ago, MollyMac said:

What are you suggestng instead?

 

You could crush the tablet and divide them up using the "druggie" technique of using a glass/mirror surface and blade.  You can put the powder into a very small single piece of toilet tissue to take it.

 

This would be better than skipping the middle of the day dose on alternate days.  You have noticed a change in your symptoms so using your current method is not a good way to taper.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by ChessieCat

[MollyMac]

Hi again, thank you for your help.

 

48 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

So you can only get extended release in Ireland?

I can get only prolonged release. The prolonged release becomes immediate release once cut.

 

48 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Have you enquired if there are generics available in immediate release?

 

There are none. It only exists in Ireland as a smoking cessation aid. It is not prescribed for depression. 

 

48 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

You could crush the tablet and divide them up using the "druggie" technique of using a glass/mirror surface and blade.  You can put the powder into a very small single piece of toilet tissue to take it.

 

This would be better than skipping the middle of the day dose on alternate days.  You have noticed a change in your symptoms so using your current method is not a good way to taper.

 

Ok. I was following advice from this thread. However, you are correct that it's not working!

In order to do it more smoothly - is this what you are suggesting?:

* Crush the whole tablet.

*Remove 1/4 (because I have successfully tapered down by 1/4 over 8 weeks ago)

* Divide the 3/4 into 3 doses.

* Reduce the individual doses?

 

Thank you again. 

[ChessieCat]

50 minutes ago, MollyMac said:

* Crush the whole tablet.

*Remove 1/4 (because I have successfully tapered down by 1/4 over 8 weeks ago)

* Divide the 3/4 into 3 doses.

 

Yes you could do it that way.  You could put aside the left over 1/4 amount and after 3 days you will have a full dose.  You can buy gelatin capsules to put your powder into.

 

51 minutes ago, MollyMac said:

* Reduce the individual doses?

 

You might want to consider investing a scale.  BrassMonkey successfully used the Gemini 20 for all of his taper until the very end when he would weigh the powder and then divide it up manually to get smaller doses.  using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses

 

Reducing all 3 doses would be the most consistent way.  Especially since you very quickly noticed a worsening of symptoms when you skipped a dose on the alternate days.

[MollyMac]

5 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Yes you could do it that way.  You could put aside the left over 1/4 amount and after 3 days you will have a full dose.  You can buy gelatin capsules to put your powder into.

 

 

You might want to consider investing a scale.  BrassMonkey successfully used the Gemini 20 for all of his taper until the very end when he would weigh the powder and then divide it up manually to get smaller doses.  using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses

 

Reducing all 3 doses would be the most consistent way.  Especially since you very quickly noticed a worsening of symptoms when you skipped a dose on the alternate days.

 

Ok. That's really helpful. I will get the capsules and a weighing scales and reduce the THREE  doses by 10% each. Thanks you CC.

[ChessieCat]

Q:  Have you returned to taking 3 x 1/4 tablets doses EVERY DAY?

 

If not, then I suggest that you do.  And it would be best to wait for a while before you reduce.  This will also allow you to get your scales and do some practise weighing without the added pressure of doing because you need the weighed doses straight away. 

 

And my suggestion would be to make a test reduction of a small amount when you do start tapering just to see how you react to the decrease.  If it goes okay then you could increase the reduction amount.

[Altostrata]

FYI NEVER SKIP DOSES TO TAPER

[MollyMac]

On 5/1/2020 at 7:30 PM, Altostrata said:

 

If I were you, I would cut your tablet into quarters (37.5mg each), take 4 times a day, such as 8 a.m., 12 noon, 4 p.m., 8 p.m. You may have to get used to that for a week or so, because each quarter might release its contents quickly.

 

Then, you are in a position to drop one quarter (37.5mg); change your quarter-tablet schedule to 8 a.m., 2 p.m., 8 p.m. This is a little steeper than we'd like, but all you can do with an extended-release tablet, you can't make a liquid from it.

 

 

Hi Altostrata. Thank you for the link. In your advice above I had understood you said to 'drop one quarter'.  I'm totally confused.   That is what I was doing? 

 

5 hours ago, Altostrata said:

FYI NEVER SKIP DOSES TO TAPER

 

This makes absolute sense, but so did the other advice. Are they not conflicting - or am I misunderstanding? 

[Altostrata]

What other advice?

 

On 8/6/2020 at 3:32 PM, MollyMac said:

Over a week ago I began skipping the middle 1/4 on alternating days.

 

This referred to a consistent schedule:

 

On 5/1/2020 at 11:30 AM, Altostrata said:

....

 

If I were you, I would cut your tablet into quarters (37.5mg each), take 4 times a day, such as 8 a.m., 12 noon, 4 p.m., 8 p.m. You may have to get used to that for a week or so, because each quarter might release its contents quickly.

 

Then, you are in a position to drop one quarter (37.5mg); change your quarter-tablet schedule to 8 a.m., 2 p.m., 8 p.m. This is a little steeper than we'd like, but all you can do with an extended-release tablet, you can't make a liquid from it.

 

....

 

[MollyMac]

36 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Then, you are in a position to drop one quarter (37.5mg); change your quarter-tablet schedule to 8 a.m., 2 p.m., 8 p.m. This is a little steeper than we'd like, but all you can do with an extended-release tablet, you can't make a liquid from it.

 

 

The advice above says to taper by dropping one whole dose. I did that, and followed your good advice to keep a  consistent schedule. It worked well. 2 months later I am dropping the next dose. Is the mistake that I did this on alternating days? 

 

For now I'm reinstating the three doses again. 

[Altostrata]

14 minutes ago, MollyMac said:

Is the mistake that I did this on alternating days? 

 

YES

[MollyMac]

Ok. I did not know this. And I've read lots. 

 

I'm doing this with the support of a doctor who is also a herbalist. That was his advice. 

 

ChessieCat has suggested crushing the (prolonged release - which becomes immediate release) tablet and dividing this between the 3 doses. 

Waiting till I'm feeling better.

Then cutting by 10% across each dose. 

Is that the right way to do it? 

 

[Altostrata]

Please tell your doctor we've found inconsistent dosing to be an excellent way to cause withdrawal symptoms due to fluctuation of blood level of the drug.

 

If we thought alternating dosages was a good idea, we'd tell people to do it. Everybody has a problem with making intermediary dosages.

 

I would not make a powder of buproprion unless you put it in a capsule. You can split a quarter tablet through the middle, like a wedge of layer cake.

 

Have you tried dropping the one dose without alternating doses? What happened then?

 

If you've had a bad reaction, you should wait a while before making another adjustment.

[MollyMac]

9 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Have you tried dropping the one dose without alternating doses? What happened then?

 

 

Yes, it was bumpy for a couple of weeks. Then settled nicely. 

 

I'm getting capsules to do it the right way. I'll weigh the doses. But I'll stay at the three doses of 1/4 for another while till I stabilise.

 

Then - If I have this right - I'll reduce by 10% across the three doses? 

 

(I will tell the flipping doctor/herbalist. 🙄😡)

 

THANK YOU ALTOSTRATA

[ChessieCat]

When creating your doses for a day, it might be easier to weigh the total daily dose and then divide that into three.  Unless you are super sensitive you don't have to ensure that the 3 daily doses are exactly the same, just reasonably close.  It's the total dose that needs to be consistent.  Obviously if you are making up a batch of capsules you would need to put them into separate compartments of a pill box.

[Altostrata]

You may be overthinking this.

 

Your earlier reduction by 37.5mg (1/4 tablet) worked out as expected.

 

On 5/1/2020 at 11:30 AM, Altostrata said:

....

If I were you, I would cut your tablet into quarters (37.5mg each), take 4 times a day, such as 8 a.m., 12 noon, 4 p.m., 8 p.m. You may have to get used to that for a week or so, because each quarter might release its contents quickly.

 

Then, you are in a position to drop one quarter (37.5mg); change your quarter-tablet schedule to 8 a.m., 2 p.m., 8 p.m. This is a little steeper than we'd like, but all you can do with an extended-release tablet, you can't make a liquid from it.

....

 

After you rest from inconsistent dosing, you may be able to reduce by 1/8 tablet. You can do this by splitting a quarter tablet through the "waist": Put it on its side, like a piece of cake, split through the wedge. I would reduce the middle dose (2 p.m.) first, see how you do. If all goes well, drop the rest of the 2 p.m. 1/8 tablet next month.

[ChessieCat]

Sorry if I've confused you.

 

Alto has more knowledge about this that I do.  If it was me I would be following her suggestion.

 

 

Edited August 8, 2020 by ChessieCat

[MollyMac]

On 8/8/2020 at 11:49 AM, ChessieCat said:

When creating your doses for a day, it might be easier to weigh the total daily dose and then divide that into three.  Unless you are super sensitive you don't have to ensure that the 3 daily doses are exactly the same, just reasonably close.  It's the total dose that needs to be consistent.  Obviously if you are making up a batch of capsules you would need to put them into separate compartments of a pill box.

 

Thank you CC. I appreciate the input. It means so much.

 

On 8/8/2020 at 5:47 PM, Altostrata said:

You may be overthinking this.

 

Your earlier reduction by 37.5mg (1/4 tablet) worked out as expected.

 

 

After you rest from inconsistent dosing, you may be able to reduce by 1/8 tablet. You can do this by splitting a quarter tablet through the "waist": Put it on its side, like a piece of cake, split through the wedge. I would reduce the middle dose (2 p.m.) first, see how you do. If all goes well, drop the rest of the 2 p.m. 1/8 tablet next month.

 

Thank you Alto. This has been great. You are great. One more question. I'm so aware of how much pressure you are under - so thank you for bearing with me. I have had a bit of a boost this week in terms of help with this process. Thanks to a friend I now have access to proper equipment. I have been able to grind the tablets up with an electric grinder, weigh out three exact doses of 37.5mg on a great set of scales, and put them into gelatin capsules. It's like a perfect laboratory set up.

 

I'll take these capsules for 2 weeks. That will be 3 weeks of 3 times a day. This should see me settled again. Especially since my body has had to deal with some seriously wonky sized quarters. My work with the pill cutter was inexact.  I'm not gifted at using that thing. Now I will be getting precise amounts. 

 

Then, I will begin to reduce again. Altostrata,  - given the fact that I can now be precise - would you still recommend dropping the afternoon dose by 1/8 - or would it be even better to drop 10% across all three doses? And wait another month before doing that again?

 

Thank you again. 

[Artistic1]

@MollyMac Hi, MollyMac. Just read your thread....so sorry you are having to deal with a lack of professional medical support in Ireland.

 

I saw your question about about whether the drug is no longer being in your system when you wake up abruptly. All these drugs have a "half life," which is the amount of time it takes for half of the dose to be out of your system. The half life for Wellbutrin is 33 - 37 hours. For example: if you were to take 10mg at 8 am, you would have 5mg still in your system 33 - 37 hours later. In another 33-37 hours, you would have 2.5mg, and in another 33-37 hours, you would have 1.25 mg. etc. That's just for that one dose.

 

What compounds the problem is that as that one dose is reducing on its own over 33-37 hours, you are adding in new doses each day, and they each have the same half life, so you always have some in your system. It shouldn't scare you, because the overall total dose is still getting smaller as you taper off. And - since this is a pretty long half life, it can make it easier on your system to taper off. But it does explain why you (and all of us) will have side effects related to this.

 

Hope that is helpful. Best of luck. I am hoping for the best for you!

[Altostrata]

No, if you break up an extended-release bupropion tablet, it becomes immediate-release bupropion with a half-life of 8-10 hours, dosed 3 times a day.

 

Molly, if you have access to the equipment, you can make your own customized doses, as you're doing with the powder. Be careful about measuring for gradual decreases in dosage as you taper.

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, MollyMac said:

Thanks to a friend I now have access to proper equipment. I have been able to grind the tablets up with an electric grinder, weigh out three exact doses of 37.5mg on a great set of scales, and put them into gelatin capsules. It's like a perfect laboratory set up.

 

That's good news.

[MollyMac]

On 8/10/2020 at 12:45 AM, Altostrata said:

No, if you break up an extended-release bupropion tablet, it becomes immediate-release bupropion with a half-life of 8-10 hours, dosed 3 times a day.

 

Molly, if you have access to the equipment, you can make your own customized doses, as you're doing with the powder. Be careful about measuring for gradual decreases in dosage as you taper.

 

Yes, I'll be careful. Sorry if I'm asking this again but I want to ensure I'm getting this right -  should my next taper be 10% across all THREE doses OR 10% of ONE dose. Thank you Alto. 😍

 

Thank you again CC, and I appreciate the input Artistic1.

[Altostrata]

10% reduction across all 3 doses will give you a total daily dose reduction of 10%.

[MollyMac]

Thank you Altostrata. Merci buckets. Am already feeling better now that I've gone back to 3 daily doses. 

[MollyMac]

Feeling blue for days now, especially in the morning. Still at 3 1/4 doses. Not playing around with it until I'm settled. Which could be a while seeing how bonkers things are out there!

[MollyMac]

Just to add, I'm not in bad shape. Just sad. But nothing to worry about. I can manage it using the usual stuff. It will pass. That I do know. 

Was just updating my online diary.

[Hanna72]

Hi @MollyMac

Yes we all have sadness, it’s human nature. Love your outlook on it

4 hours ago, MollyMac said:

I can manage it using the usual stuff. It will pass. That I do know

Yes is always passes.

Take care🙏