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Estman

Estman: Reducing Anafranil, withdrawal symptoms

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Estman

Hello,

There has been insane anxiety and depression since yesterday
I'm desperate and don't know how to calm down
It seems to have a wave of 7 days (14 days ago I reduced only 1mg)
Anxiety and despair are so sur that it makes you nauseous
There is such a compulsive tension, you can't think of anything else for a moment
Will it pass too?
What to do?

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Estman
On 5/4/2015 at 5:36 PM, JanCarol said:

 

 

and 

 

2.  When you were a child, do you remember anything before age 4?  No?  That's because your brain was building so fast, it literally couldn't retain memories (ref:  http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/4198637.htm).  It takes 4 years to build a brain from scratch.  Age 7 is where the "age of reason" begins, and a child supposedly knows right from wrong (in several religions).  So it takes 7 years to build a discerning brain.  Do you remember the difference between your brain at age 7 and age 13?  What about the difference between age 14 and age 21?  BIG difference, huh?

 

Now compare these times to the number of years you were on the drug/s. Think about what your brain was like then, and what your brain is like now.   Do not expect yourself to heal in days, weeks, or even months.  The brain is an amazing thing.  Respect it, and don't put it to a schedule.  IT WILL HEAL.  It IS HEALING!  But it will take time.  Be patient with your brain, let it grow itself anew.

 

The waves will come, the windows will come, the waves will come again, and so will the windows.  You breathe in, you breathe out.  You are alive.  Let your brain have it's own schedule, don't try to pin it to a calendar or a clock.  I believe that to do so, will actually hinder its repair - but to let go - will help it heal more quickly.  (just my belief)

 

 

The wave is so hard on me that it drives me nauseous and constant despair
I reduced Anafranil to 1mg (14 days ago) and 7 days ago the wave started
I'm completely done right now, can't get out of bed, nausea, confusion, great depression and anxiety.
The current daily dose is 34mg
Previously, I reduced 2.5mg at a time and then waited 3-4 weeks.
Last time I waited 6-7 weeks to stabilize.
Why did I cut as heavy a wave as just 1mg?
Since several weeks have been better in the meantime, the current wave is a shock

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Estman
On 6/16/2012 at 11:32 PM, Altostrata said:

Merged our waves and windows topics.

 

Our nervous systems are so complicated, they repair themselves in patches. Some parts recover, then the whole thing needs to rebalance again. Rinse and repeat.

I kept the previous dose for 6-7 weeks.
since the last few weeks were more stable then I thought of reducing the low dose to 1mg
The first 7 days after reduction were not bad, but then got worse.
Now in 14 days there is chaos, great anxiety with nausea and despair.
Does this indicate that I was moving too fast?
I do not know what to do now is a constant torment
I don't know if this wave is due to this 1mg reduction or previous reductions?

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Estman

Thanks, support helps me!
I currently have both mental and physical symptoms
As if to die
But hopefully it will pass

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JanCarol

Hey Estman, you are getting to the 'pointy end' of the taper where tiny changes make a huge difference.

 

Perhaps longer holds will help you here, perhaps a micro taper. 

 

It is common on SA to be very sensitive to dose increments as you approach zero.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

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Altostrata

Estman, your questions and status updates belong in the topic, your Introductions topic, not in the other part of the site.

 

On 6/3/2020 at 2:37 AM, Estman said:

Does a small dose change such as a 2-3% reduction cause withdrawal symptoms or is it a wave?
....

 

If you get withdrawal symptoms after a reduction, they are withdrawal symptoms. When you get withdrawal symptoms, stop tapering.

 

How much Anafranil are you taking now?

 

Since you got withdrawal symptoms after reducing 1mg, I would updose by 0.5mg. Please let us know how you're doing.

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Estman

I am currently taking 34mg a day
Last reduction 1mg made 16 days ago
In recent days, there has also been great anxiety and a bad mood
High blood pressure is also a concern
Anxiety attacks are especially severe when you fall asleep in the evening and when you wake up in the morning.
Yesterday the blood pressure was 154/100, the pulse was 90
High blood pressure is usually accompanied by severe nausea
From time to time there are rapid increases in heart rate, with anxiety

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Estman

My doctor asked why I was torturing me like that
Why am I giving up the medicine myself?
Unfortunately, doctors do not understand that I want to get rid of medication
Unfortunately, they do not receive support.
They do not understand that it is possible to do without medicine
I hope, however, that the current bad wave will pass and I will be able to move on

I want to get rid of myself, as many people here have done

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Estman

I had a great anxiety and a high heart rate when I woke up in the morning
It seems to be a jump in cortisol.
In the afternoon I took a 1.5 hour nap and when I woke up I immediately hit my heart rate 117
Is there a jump in cortisol again?
At the same time, blood pressure was normal 130/85
I took 12.5mg of Betaloc which lowers my heart rate
However, after the heart rate dropped (it took an hour), there was tremendous anhedonia and weakness
I can't work right now
Can Betaloc also cause weakness or withdrawal symptoms?
I have seen a cortisol lowering supplement on the market
I haven't heard anyone use it
I understand I'm having a bad wave right now
Does the wave always pass? And anhedonia?

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Altostrata

What is the drug name for Betaloc? Please use Web search and read up on adverse effects of Betaloc.

 

When did you start to get episodes of high blood pressure?

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Estman
13 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What is the drug name for Betaloc? Please use Web search and read up on adverse effects of Betaloc.

 

When did you start to get episodes of high blood pressure?

Betaloc ZOK (metoprolol succinate) is a cardioselective beta-blocker for hypertension, angina pectoris, heart failure, disturbances of cardiac rhythm including especially supraventricular tachycardia, maintenance treatment after myocardial infarction and functional heart disorders with palpitations and for migraine 

High heart rate and blood pressure are usually 4 to 20 days of weaning
Other times, it's not a concern

 

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Estman
21 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

It's a little better today. (18 day )
There is less anxiety and sleep was normal
There was no cortisol jump on waking
I feel a little better
I tried to work physically but got tired very quickly
An hour of work and then I'm powerless and feeling depressed
Why is it like that? Is there any connection to the heart rate?
Is it a side effect or a withdrawal symptom of Anafranil?
Is it also a transient symptom if kept longer?

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Altostrata

Are you taking metoprolol regularly? What times of day are you taking it? How are you taking 12.5mg? Is your tablet extended-release?

 

12.5mg sounds like it's too strong for you. I might cut it in half.

 

10 hours ago, Estman said:

High heart rate and blood pressure are usually 4 to 20 days of weaning

 

You get high heart rate and blood pressure from the 4th day after a reduction to the 20th day?

 

If so, I would stop making tapering for the time being. You are tapering too fast. How did you get from 75mg Anafranil in December to 35mg in May?

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Estman
16 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Are you taking metoprolol regularly? What times of day are you taking it? How are you taking 12.5mg? Is your tablet extended-release?

 

12.5mg sounds like it's too strong for you. I might cut it in half.

 

 

You get high heart rate and blood pressure from the 4th day after a reduction to the 20th day?

 

If so, I would stop making tapering for the time being. You are tapering too fast. How did you get from 75mg Anafranil in December to 35mg in May?

Yes, I started reducing 75mg 6 months ago and today the daily dose is 34mg
I looked at the notes that I have made the latest reductions as follows:
March 13 new daily dose of 37.5mg
April 13 new daily dose of 35mg
May 23 new daily dose of 34mg
You're right, I've cut too fast
I was hoping that the last reduction of 1mg after 40 days would not be difficult but I was wrong
Yesterday the first half of the day was better but in the afternoon there was fatigue
This fatigue became very great, with increased depression and anxiety
I have exhausted my strength and need to recover for a long time.
If from December to March I was able to reduce normally then in recent months very little
What do you think?
I have taken this Betaloc at 3 p.m.
I take it when I feel like my heart rate is too fast
I'm afraid it can also cause fatigue and I try to cope without it
I get tired very quickly
Even if I feel better and start doing something, I get tired in 1-2 hours.
If you don't stop at the right time, you will experience exhaustion, anxiety and sweating, and hot flashes

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Altostrata

We advised you to taper slower, but you decided to taper faster. You will have to stop tapering and cope with your symptoms until they settle down.

 

If you get side effects from Betaloc, take less. Use common sense.

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Estman
54 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

We advised you to taper slower, but you decided to taper faster. You will have to stop tapering and cope with your symptoms until they settle down.

 

If you get side effects from Betaloc, take less. Use common sense.

Yes, I will take at least 2 months and not reduce.
40 days was not enough to stabilize the system
Some of the symptoms now are beyond description
At the same time, there is a great feeling of restlessness, agitation and physical ailments
However, they were not there yesterday morning
I was already happier and back today

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Estman

I have taken Anafranil 3 times a day so far
8 a.m., 1 p.m., and 9 p.m.
In the afternoon there is dizziness and drowsiness and sleepiness
I often sleep in the afternoon because I can't function
Do I have to take my daily dose for the evening?
How fast to do it?

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Altostrata

I believe we told you before that Anafranil does not need to be taken 3 times a day. If I were you, I'd move the 1 p.m. dose gradually by one hour per day to take with the 9 p.m. dose. Then you would be taking Anafranil twice a day. You will probably get sleepy at night.

 

If you are also taking Betaloc in the afternoon, that could add to drowsiness. Use common sense.

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Estman
14 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I believe we told you before that Anafranil does not need to be taken 3 times a day. If I were you, I'd move the 1 p.m. dose gradually by one hour per day to take with the 9 p.m. dose. Then you would be taking Anafranil twice a day. You will probably get sleepy at night.

 

If you are also taking Betaloc in the afternoon, that could add to drowsiness. Use common sense.

I'm going to move my daily dose

No longer take Betaloc
I'm trying to cope without it

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Estman
On 6/15/2020 at 12:26 AM, Altostrata said:

I believe we told you before that Anafranil does not need to be taken 3 times a day. If I were you, I'd move the 1 p.m. dose gradually by one hour per day to take with the 9 p.m. dose. Then you would be taking Anafranil twice a day. You will probably get sleepy at night.

 

If you are also taking Betaloc in the afternoon, that could add to drowsiness. Use common sense.

I have taken my daily dose at 8 pm this evening.
The time of the week was better and more stable
In the last few days, anxiety has arisen again
Yesterday I did a few hours of physical work and after that I developed familiar weakness-anxiety and bad mood.
It was high at night and caused a rise in blood pressure
The blood pressure was 148/102 at night
I couldn't sleep until morning
Does taking a dose of the medicine at another time (in the evening) initially cause symptoms of adjustment?
I have kept the daily dose stable
Does physical activity cause withdrawal symptoms?

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ChessieCat
1 hour ago, Estman said:

Does physical activity cause withdrawal symptoms?

 

Yes, physical activity can cause withdrawal symptoms to increase.

 

-exercise-do-more-do-less-do-nothing-what-worked-for-you

 

It may also have caused the sleeplessness due to being overstimulated.

 

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Estman
4 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Yes, physical activity can cause withdrawal symptoms to increase.

 

-exercise-do-more-do-less-do-nothing-what-worked-for-you

 

It may also have caused the sleeplessness due to being overstimulated.

 

Yes, it seems strange
It would be logical for physical fatigue and exercise to reduce stress hormones, such as consuming cortisol
In my case, on the contrary, as long as I act, I feel normal
After finishing work, the fatigue and anxiety keep getting worse
In addition, there is a very bad mood, just like a reduction
Later, greater anxiety and insomnia develop
The body seems to be unable to shut itself down
Why does such overstimulation occur?

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Altostrata
5 hours ago, Estman said:

Yes, it seems strange
It would be logical for physical fatigue and exercise to reduce stress hormones, such as consuming cortisol
In my case, on the contrary, as long as I act, I feel normal
After finishing work, the fatigue and anxiety keep getting worse
In addition, there is a very bad mood, just like a reduction
Later, greater anxiety and insomnia develop
The body seems to be unable to shut itself down
Why does such overstimulation occur?

 

It seems many of your symptoms are due to the way you take your drugs.

 

None of these questions can be answered until we see a daily symptom pattern. Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

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Estman
On 6/22/2020 at 10:11 PM, Altostrata said:

 

It seems many of your symptoms are due to the way you take your drugs.

 

None of these questions can be answered until we see a daily symptom pattern. Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

I have made the following notes:
June 15 medication 3 times a day, I started to shift the dose from lunch to evening
        The day passed normally. There was no anxiety, little depression. Memory with occasional difficulties

On June 16, I took the drug 3 times a day (12mg in the morning, 10mg at 16 and 12mg in the evening)

 feeling normal, no anxiety or depression
there was no despair or nausea
there was no problem with the activities, there was no apathy
There was no confusion and no physical mood or fatigue
 there was no fear or euphoria

On June 17   I  took the drug 3 times in the morning, 10mg at 18 and 10mg in the evening
  Feeling mostly normal.
In the evening, moderate headaches, sadness, moderate malaise and sweating occurred

On June 18, I took the drug 3 times in the morning, 10mg at 19, and 10mg in the evening
Sleep was disturbed, intense
The mood fluctuated a bit, but the day is normal.
In the evening, a moderate headache occurred

On June 19, I took the drug twice a day, 14mg in the morning and 20mg in the evening
Last night was normal, I was able to sleep well.
Feeling normal in the morning, indigestion in the evening and headache.
Couldn't fall asleep before 3-4 o'clock at night.

On June 20, I took the drug twice, 14mg in the morning and 20mg in the evening
At night, sleep was confused, with headaches, anxiety.
Feeling bad

On June 21, I took the drug 2 twice, 14mg in the morning and 20mg in the evening
The night's sleep was awake and worse.
Waking up in the morning immediately tired and feeling unwell.
I did a few hours of moderate physical work, after which the fatigue and anxiety worsened.
There was a great deal of anxiety and inability to fall asleep in the evening and at night.

On June 22, I took the drug twice, 14mg in the morning and 20mg in the evening
When I woke up in the morning I was tired, restless and anxious.
I felt bad.
At night, the blood pressure was 148/102
Restlessness and withdrawal symptoms during the day (no daily dose reduction)

On June 23, I took the drug twice in the morning and 20mg in the evening
The night passed normally, when I woke up I was immediately tired and couldn't do anything.
Feeling and mood bad.
Throughout the day there was great fatigue and anxiety. Head dizzy
There is a lot of depression in the afternoon, like compulsions
Night blood pressure 148/109 pulse 75
There is a constant fight or escape reaction, constant anxiety-panic.
I fell asleep only in the morning. The sleep was bad
Waking up immediately to greater anxiety.

 

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Altostrata

I see you like to experiment.

 

I may have told you before not to make frequent changes in your drugs. If I haven't, please do not make frequent changes in your drugs. It causes your symptom pattern to be irregular.

 

These were my recommendations:

 

On 6/14/2020 at 2:26 PM, Altostrata said:

I believe we told you before that Anafranil does not need to be taken 3 times a day. If I were you, I'd move the 1 p.m. dose gradually by one hour per day to take with the 9 p.m. dose. Then you would be taking Anafranil twice a day. You will probably get sleepy at night.

 

If you are also taking Betaloc in the afternoon, that could add to drowsiness. Use common sense.

 

You've done everything but follow them.

 

You have messed yourself up. We cannot support people who make their own problems.

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Estman
7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I see you like to experiment.

 

I may have told you before not to make frequent changes in your drugs. If I haven't, please do not make frequent changes in your drugs. It causes your symptom pattern to be irregular.

 

These were my recommendations:

 

 

You've done everything but follow them.

 

You have messed yourself up. We cannot support people who make their own problems.

I take it twice a day now.
Maybe I was moving too fast, but I did as you suggested
In what sense do I like to experiment?
I do not have any comorbidities or medications other than Anafranil addiction
Is the change in blood pressure due to this?

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Estman

Yes, there have been more drowsiness in the morning for a few days.
It actually bothers me.
I've tried to sleep longer in the morning, sometimes even at 10 o'clock, but I can't
Is this the case after moving the dose or will it remain so?

The body also responds to changes in the time it takes the medicine

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Altostrata

As I read your record of recent dosing, I see you've taken the opportunity to sometime decrease your daily dosage and then increase it again.

 

This is the kind of irregular dosing we tell people to avoid. It causes withdrawal symptoms such as palpitations and blood pressure changes.

 

What is your current drug schedule and how long have you been on that drug schedule?

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Estman
1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

As I read your record of recent dosing, I see you've taken the opportunity to sometime decrease your daily dosage and then increase it again.

 

This is the kind of irregular dosing we tell people to avoid. It causes withdrawal symptoms such as palpitations and blood pressure changes.

 

What is your current drug schedule and how long have you been on that drug schedule?

The current daily dose is 34mg and I have been on it for 33 days.
The last dose change was then on 23 May
The first worst wave started in 8 days and lasted for 21 days (14 day cycle?)
Then it was 6 days better until I started moving the daily dose
I am not taking Betaloc because it seems to increase fatigue.
The problem these days is when anxiety is high, then blood pressure is high and pulse is fast

Today was dizziness and depression
It is hoped to stabilize again, even with two medications a day

Thank you for being patient with me

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Altostrata

So you did reduce your daily dose. What times of day (o'clock) do you take your drugs, with their dosages?

 

How long have you been on your current drug SCHEDULE?

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Estman
11 hours ago, Altostrata said:

So you did reduce your daily dose. What times of day (o'clock) do you take your drugs, with their dosages?

 

How long have you been on your current drug SCHEDULE?


The daily dose has been the same for 34 days, but I changed the time of taking the drug.
In the last six days (since 20.06) I have taken it:
In the morning at 8           14mg
In the evening at 20          10mg
                          at 21          10mg


There have been withdrawal symptoms for the last 6 days.

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Estman

Last night I experienced intrusive thoughts
They are very disturbing and scary for me
There is usually constant worry that cannot be stopped
Then there is the depression that it stays that way
The idea seems to get stuck and can't move on
The more I am afraid of these thoughts, the harder it is to cope
I have experienced them before from time to time
Are these symptoms specific to Anafranil or does everyone have them?
How to behave in their case, what to think?

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Altostrata
10 hours ago, Estman said:

There have been withdrawal symptoms for the last 6 days.

 

What do you mean by withdrawal symptoms? How's your sleep?

 

Did you start on psychiatric drugs because of intrusive thoughts?

 

Being afraid of thoughts or feelings adds to distress. You can stop being afraid of thoughts and feelings, that is something you can manage.

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Estman
16 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

What do you mean by withdrawal symptoms? How's your sleep?

 

Did you start on psychiatric drugs because of intrusive thoughts?

 

Being afraid of thoughts or feelings adds to distress. You can stop being afraid of thoughts and feelings, that is something you can manage.


Severe withdrawal symptoms for me: confusion, restlessness, anxiety, unfounded fear, weakness-fatigue, sleep disturbances, depression (inability to feel happy and constant feeling unwell, dizziness, nausea, despair, headache ...
At the moment I have been able to sleep, sometimes it is difficult to fall asleep.
I usually wake up several times during the night
I woke up twice last night, I felt better then when I woke up, but I felt bad in the morning. The change took only 2 hours.

No, the medicine was given to me due to severe fatigue, burnout.
One spring I went to work with a cold and after that I became very tired
Since I also had generalized anxiety disorder then the doctor prescribed the medication.
There have been no such disturbing thoughts before, they are all from an antidepressant
At the moment, we are also very warm, almost 30 degrees, and the tricyclic drug makes it especially confusing

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Altostrata

What is the reason you are taking 2 evening doses one hour apart?

 

The reason I suggested going to 2 doses a day was because you were complaining of this:

 

On 6/14/2020 at 9:22 AM, Estman said:

I have taken Anafranil 3 times a day so far
8 a.m., 1 p.m., and 9 p.m.
In the afternoon there is dizziness and drowsiness and sleepiness
I often sleep in the afternoon because I can't function
Do I have to take my daily dose for the evening?
How fast to do it?

 

Have these symptoms changed?

 

Since you've been on your current schedule for 6 days (with a reduction of 1mg Anafranil included), I would stay on this schedule for at least a month. Your being able to sleep is a good sign. You may continue to feel better as your system adjusts to the new schedule. Please let us know of any SIGNIFICANT changes in your symptom pattern.

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Estman
12 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What is the reason you are taking 2 evening doses one hour apart?

 

The reason I suggested going to 2 doses a day was because you were complaining of this:

 

 

Have these symptoms changed?

 

Since you've been on your current schedule for 6 days (with a reduction of 1mg Anafranil included), I would stay on this schedule for at least a month. Your being able to sleep is a good sign. You may continue to feel better as your system adjusts to the new schedule. Please let us know of any SIGNIFICANT changes in your symptom pattern.

I also wanted to take the evening dose to 9 p.m.
When the worse symptoms started, by that time I had reached 8 o'clock.
Probably should take at the same time, I'm going to do it

 


Yes, before that there was more drowsiness in the afternoon
It is now easier not to sleep during the day
It's harder to wake up in the morning now
I have slept until 9 o'clock for several days and am not recovering well
Maybe it touches when the body gets used to the new mode

I mentioned withdrawal symptoms in a previous letter
Sometimes, however, it is difficult to distinguish between what is a withdrawal symptom and what is a side effect of the drug
This Anafranil  seems to be confusing effect
This is probably a side effect
This is disturbing and that is why I want to constantly reduce it
When I reduce the drug, there is confusion
But the drug itself causes it
I have also noticed memory problems
Sometimes I go to get something and forget what I'm looking for
I never had that kind of thing before
Yes, it must be kept stable now

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