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Nivsch: what do you think about reducing 1mg every week

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Nivsch

I take Duloxetine 60 mg and want (not alone of course but with my psychiatrist) to start reducing the dose by 1 mg every week.

 

I read the 10% method. but why not 1mg every week? seems to me more gradual. and during the last 10mg - only then - to do the 10% method.

 

What do you think?


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Gridley

Welcome to SA, Nivsch.

 

We much prefer the 10% method for a couple of reasons.  First, using the 1mg a week method, once you get below 40mg, you'll be tapering by more than the 10% of current dose every four weeks that we recommend and that excess will increase as you get lower and lower.   

 

Second, decreasing by a straight 1mg a week accelerates the amount you would be decreasing each time, making it rougher and rougher with each drop.  By contrast, decreasing by a percentage decelerates the amount of each drop and makes things gentler on your system.

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

This link is specifically about tapering Duloxetine, including how to taper by reducing beads.

 

Tips for tapering off Cymbalta (duloxetine)

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here.

 

 

 

 


Gridley Introduction

 

Lexapro 20 mg since 2004.  Began taper using Brassmonkey slide Jan. 2017.   

End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg 

End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg

End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg  

Current from Sept.23, 2020 at 0.05mg

Taper is 99.75% complete.

 

Lorazepam 1 mg 1986-1991 CT, resumed a few months later. CT 2000.  1 mg 2011-2016.  Sept, 2016 increased to 0.5 X 3 in split dose. Sept. 2019 increased to 0.625 X 3 after crossover to new brand

 

Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986.  Jan. 2016 began every 3-weeks 10% taper, down to 15mg.  Aug 2016, discovered SA, updosed to 25mg and holding.  Taper is 66% complete.  

  

Supplements: omega, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotic, melatonin .33mg


I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice, but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs.

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Altostrata

Welcome, Nivsch.

 

If you want to reduce 60mg duloxetine by 1mg per week, that would be under our 10% per month guideline until you got to 40mg duloxetine.

 

You'll have to figure out how many duloxetine beads are in 1mg, probably by weighing. Please let us know how you're doing.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Nivsch

@Gridley @Altostrata thank you very much. I will update my process here.


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Nivsch

I have a question:

Is reducing 2.5% of the current dose every week without holds at all equal/more subtle/more rough than the 10% every 4 weeks method?


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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DataGuy
Posted (edited)

@Nivsch this would be slightly gentler, since you are reducing a bit less than 10% per month and it is a smaller reduction at any given time. 

 

It is less because you are reducing 1.5mg (2.5%) initially, but then you would be reducing 1.46mg (58.5mg x 2.5%) the next week, then a bit less the next time. By the one month mark, you would be at 54.22mg, rather than 54mg. So the taper is a bit slower and should be smoother too. However, if you find symptoms are getting too much, you can always taper more slowly. Best to keep yourself as functional as possible. Many do find they need to taper more slowly than this pace. 

 

This link provided by @Gridley explains why it is important to go slowly during the taper. It can be difficult to stabilize your nervous system if it gets frazzled by a too-fast-taper and symptom onset can be delayed, subtle, and a bit difficult to identify. Some have an easy time with a quick taper, but others have difficulty with even a very slow taper. You will find out when you start tapering, but best to begin conservatively. 

Edited by DataGuy

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs, and olanzapine.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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Nivsch
Posted (edited)

Can the brain adapt to the PHASE of tapering itself during the time?

 

I mean, if the brain can adjust itself to a specific dose (tolerance - reducing effectivness) or to any new dose over the time. Why won't it be that the brain has the ability to adjust also to the slope itself (of the reducing)?

 

Which means for example if I reduce 1.75% every week, in the beggining it will be relatively difficult but after couple of weeks and months it will be easier and easier. What do you think?

 

Edited by ChessieCat
added topic title

2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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ChessieCat

Many members find that the lower their dose gets the slower they need to go, reducing less and/or holding longer.

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves


Being very patient.  I'll get there - slowly.  ETA mid 2021

ADs:  25 years - 1 unknown, Prozac (caused muscle weakness), Zoloft/sertraline; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after)

Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (mild Serotonin Toxicity)

Began tapering Oct 2015  Current from 17 Oct 2020:  Pristiq 0.56 mg (compounded + liquid)

My tapering program

My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)

My website - includes my brief history + links to videos & information on the web

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.

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brassmonkey

Hi Nivsch-- Chessie sent you a link to what is called the SERT Occupancy chart.  This is the basis for the 10% every four weeks that we recommend as a starting point. By following this hyperbolic curve it is possible to remove the medication at about the same rate that the bodies receptors require to heal.  This keeps WD symptoms to a minimum during that period. If a person reduces too much or to fast there is unfinished healing that builds up in the background.  When that unfinished healing gets to be too much the person "crashes" with an outbreak of acute symptoms. This requires an extended hold period at that dose lever to allow the body to catch up.  

 

If a person goes slower than the recommended taper there is much less of a problem.  To a small extent the body can get ahead of the curve and do some healing before it is needed.  Once a taper has been established, on some cases, the body can anticipate the upcoming changes and get a head start on them. In effect becoming habituated to the idea of tapering and having some momentum in a downward direction. But it is a delicate balancing act to maintain as there are so many different factors involved in a smooth taper.

 

There are differing results for how easy a taper becomes over time. It is  split between the taper becoming easier and it becoming harder.  Because of the SERT Curve we can see that there is a bias toward it becoming harder. As you can see the lower the dose the move affect it has on the SERT loading so a small adjustment can lead to a large change. This is why we recommend people going slower and smaller changes toward the end of a taper. Frequently. if a person had fine tuned their taper, they will feel improvements the lower they go in dose.


20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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Nivsch

@brassmonkey Given that the % reducing method (becomes smaller over time) is precisely established because of the SERT curve, it has to offset the exponential curve effect. So why there is still a bias towards becoming harder? 

 

And thanks a lot for the detailed answer.


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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brassmonkey

It's very hard to answer questions like this because even the people who make the drugs don't really understand how they work and how the body reacts to them. All we can report is from the observations we have made while helping many people taper off of these drugs. There are so many factors involve, taper rate, metabolic rate, external stress levels, drug interactions, to name a few, that it is impossible to nail it down to one specific thing.


20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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Nivsch

I have a question about recovery.

 

Even after one finished all the tapering and were in zero for 1-2 years and his brain has fully recovered FROM THE DRUG.

 

How he expect to feel good and "healthy" if he didn't solve the root of his mental problem (traumas, toxins, nutrition etc.)?

 

It seems to me that it is very very easy to get confused, and think that after your brain will fully recover from the drug - you will be in "0" mood and healthy.

But its not true, because if in the first place you started using the drug because of mental health of "(-3)", and lets say today, after 5-10 years with the drug you are in (-7), why do you think you will be in "0" after your tapering? your will return to (-3) in the best case.

 

So if you have not worked on the root of your problem, all the tapering and recovery process from the drug will be extremely difficult, because the MAXIMUM you can reach to is (-3), so most of the recovery process you will be between (-5) and (-7) and from that point, there is no wonder at all why tapering is so difficult for so many people - not because of the tapering (partially) but MAINLY because your maximum potential level is still low!


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Altostrata
Posted (edited)

Wherever you go, there you are. If you have longstanding 'mental health" or emotional problems from, for example, a childhood of neglect, you will have to learn to cope with or work through those problems.

 

If you have longstanding health issues, such as migraine or poor diet, you will still have to learn self-care to manage your symptoms or optimize your physical health.

 

If you were exposed to toxins, like mercury or lead (as in a factory, a mine, or lead paint), you will need to consult medical specialists to remove them from your body. This is only for real, serious exposure to toxins. We don't endorse liver purification or other detoxification procedures here.

Edited by Altostrata
clarification

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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ChessieCat
5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I have a question about recovery.

 

Posts moved from Windows and Waves topic to member's introduction topic.


Being very patient.  I'll get there - slowly.  ETA mid 2021

ADs:  25 years - 1 unknown, Prozac (caused muscle weakness), Zoloft/sertraline; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after)

Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (mild Serotonin Toxicity)

Began tapering Oct 2015  Current from 17 Oct 2020:  Pristiq 0.56 mg (compounded + liquid)

My tapering program

My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)

My website - includes my brief history + links to videos & information on the web

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.

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Nivsch
22 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Wherever you go, there you are. If you have longstanding 'mental health" or emotional problems from, for example, a childhood of neglect, you will have to learn to cope with or work through those problems.

 

If you have longstanding health issues, such as migraine or poor diet, you will still have to learn self-care to manage your symptoms or optimize your physical health.

 

If you were exposed to toxins, like mercury or lead (as in a factory, a mine, or lead paint), you will need to consult medical specialists to remove them from your body. This is only for real, serious exposure to toxins. We don't endorse liver purification or other detoxification procedures here.

👍

Thank you.

 

I have Another question:

I read right now again here in the forum about the SERT occupacy curve. It made me an impression that the first miligrams are almost nothing in terms of SERT occupacy.

I am on duloxetine with original dose before tapering that was on 60mg. Now I am already on 52 and I felt that the reducing from 54 to 52+ was difficult. Given that curve - can it be most likely that what i felt was *most likely* not at all from the reducing and in this initial stage, the effect of such a reducing is mostly psychological? Like nucebo effect.

Because if the answer is yes, maybe i can be more confident to keep reducing in this phase (2.5% per week) and not turn into 1%. because the curve says that in this stage the occupacy change is very tiny and most likely its all psychological right now (maybe...) What do you think?


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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ChessieCat

The SERT occupany curve is just a guideline.  The 10% reduction every 4 weeks is general rule to getting off psychiatric drugs.    Some people might be able to taper faster, whilst some need to go slower.  But nobody knows if they can go faster, unless they try it and find that they are okay.  But if they do try to go faster and things get worse, it can sensitise their nervous system and they can become destabilised and it may take a long time to stabilise again.  Some members find that they don't get back to how they were feeling before they tried to go faster.  The ones who need to go slower start to understand that they need to reduce their taper rate as they notice over several reductions that their withdrawal symptoms don't reduce in a short period of time.

 

There may be doses that you reduce to during your taper that you find that you have increased withdrawal symptoms compared to other reductions.  There may be some dose reductions that you make where you get very few or very mild withdrawal symptoms.  This will be different for different people and different drugs.  When this happens the best thing to do is to hold on the same dose until things stabilise, also known as WDnormal, before making another reduction.


Being very patient.  I'll get there - slowly.  ETA mid 2021

ADs:  25 years - 1 unknown, Prozac (caused muscle weakness), Zoloft/sertraline; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after)

Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (mild Serotonin Toxicity)

Began tapering Oct 2015  Current from 17 Oct 2020:  Pristiq 0.56 mg (compounded + liquid)

My tapering program

My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)

My website - includes my brief history + links to videos & information on the web

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.

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Altostrata
3 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I felt that the reducing from 54 to 52+ was difficult. Given that curve - can it be most likely that what i felt was *most likely* not at all from the reducing and in this initial stage, the effect of such a reducing is mostly psychological? Like nucebo effect.

Because if the answer is yes, maybe i can be more confident to keep reducing in this phase (2.5% per week)

 

If you felt the decrease, you're going too fast. Tolerance for decreases is individual. Your nervous system has the final decision. Your personal occupancy curve might have a slightly different shape than the average, which is what's in the journal articles.

 

I see you started out as a 10% skeptic. The reason we urge you to do a hyperbolic taper is to allow your nervous system to accommodate to progressively less drug. If you insist on doing a faster taper, we may not be able to help you. You should know this in advance. Do not go faster than your nervous system is comfortable. We advocate a hyperbolic taper for good reasons.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Nivsch
On 7/23/2020 at 4:18 AM, Altostrata said:

 

If you felt the decrease, you're going too fast. Tolerance for decreases is individual. Your nervous system has the final decision. Your personal occupancy curve might have a slightly different shape than the average, which is what's in the journal articles.

 

I see you started out as a 10% skeptic. The reason we urge you to do a hyperbolic taper is to allow your nervous system to accommodate to progressively less drug. If you insist on doing a faster taper, we may not be able to help you. You should know this in advance. Do not go faster than your nervous system is comfortable. We advocate a hyperbolic taper for good reasons.

 

Yes I will listen to my body and take what you say into account. Before I started tapering I read carefully all the instructions about 10% method. I decided to do it in a form of 2.5% per week but very likely it is still too fast for me, so right now I do 1% per week, with an option to do twice 1% reductions per week only if I feel good enough, and keep listening to my body and fine tune the phase during the way slightly up alightly down along with my body messages.


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Altostrata

That sounds like a very good idea. You can also take vacations from tapering if your nervous system signals it needs a rest.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Nivsch
3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

That sounds like a very good idea. You can also take vacations from tapering if your nervous system signals it needs a rest.

👍 I will consider it. and thank you again.

 

Just in brief more details about my decisions I hope it can be helpful to other people too:

 

I started to shrink my eating time to maximum of 8-10 hours (mostly 8 hours) and 16 hour fasting. I invested this issue and read it makes the body much more time to rest and repair and induce autophagy - recycling and repairing processes within the cells - much more efficiently! I also read that after 12 hours the body starts ketosis that also helps cell activities.

 

Until 2 months ago my eating times were realtively very bad. I ate heavy stuff right before sleeping and I sure it had part in my mental state. I think toxins in the brain is a problem of nearly all of us because in the western society we just dont let our body enough time to repair due to nearly 24/7 of digestion activity which make toxins to accumulate in our body during the years.

 

Also I moved this summer to 80%-90% of 801010 diet to support the healing process and from this week I started to eat only in sunlight hours.

 

In my opinion these issues are very important if not crucial things to the healing process. Of course one dont have to do necessarily 801010 and everyone can do his own unique way! But in the bottom line - less digestion time, more rest time to our body and cleaner food.


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Nivsch

* In 'consider' I mean that I will do what you suggested to take a vacation if I feel that even the 1% per week will overwhelm :)


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Nivsch

I have a question:

 

I think that the drug itself is part of my mental health difficulty, but I dont know for sure and I really want like a prove that will show me and it make me even more motivated to do the tapering (I will taper anyway because I feel its right for me).

 

I am asking because its not easy to know in my case. I also started just this summer totally new habits that are much more healthy like not eating at night, not eating all day long and soon also better sleep habits. Also nutrition itself and I see many people who improved mentally very much from this.

 

So there are two factors here - 1. Tapering 2. New habits. and both of them are long-term (months and more) built. and there is no way i will give up one of them and check only one at a time and wait for the full effect (one factor two+ years and then the other factor more two years...) because it will take me like five years in total and i really dont have patient for that and it seems to me unrational and not efficient.

 

So having said that, how can I get this kind of prove, that taking drugs for 10 years is actually interupting my mental health?

 

 


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Nivsch
On 5/6/2011 at 10:26 PM, Altostrata said:

He said if the dosage of Cymbalta is "normal" -- 30mg-40mg -- he would switch to 10mg Prozac with a week of overlap. In other words, take both medications for a week and then drop the Cymbalta.
 

How can it be?

 

In the dose equivallency topic mentioned that 40 flouxetine/prozac = ~150 venlafaxine (= ~60 cymbalta/duloxetine(?) Is this also true?)

So if when I reach to 30 cymbalta I will want to switch to prozac it will has to be 20mg prozac and not 10. Or do i miss something?

 

I think about switching in the future because I get here the impression that tapering cymbalta is between so difficult to impossible 🤷‍♂️

 


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Altostrata

That question is answered in tremendous detail here

 


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Nivsch
41 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

That question is answered in tremendous detail here

 

 

I read it. I mean switching from 30 mg cymbalta to 10mg prozac and after the bridging - end up with 10mg prozac and stay with 10mg and then tapering from there.

But - i though that 30 cymbalta is equivalent to 20mg prozac and not to 10. Thats why i ask. I didnt find an answer for that in the discussion.

 

I based on the dosage equivalency topic in which you showed that flouxetine 40mg = 149 venlafaxine. Since my psychiatrist turned me from 150 venlafaxine to 60 duloxetine, I assume that 40 prozac = 60 cymbalta and therefore 20 prozac = 30 cymbalta.

 

Maybe I missed, and what the doctor you mentioned said is that cymbalta 30 is suitable to prozac 10 only during the bridging but after that you have to updose the prozac to 20.

 

Thats whats confuse me here.


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Altostrata

As we've said maybe 50,000 times, you have to see how you feel after a drug change before deciding on the next step. THIS IS THE LAW OF DRUG CHANGES.

 

See The Prozac switch or "bridging" with Prozac


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Nivsch

Ok I am new here I didn't know...


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Altostrata

You'll have to read the links.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Nivsch
1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

You'll have to read the links.

I just finished read it now and ill read it again before i decide. My gut feeling tends strongly to the favor of switching but I will give cymbalta at least more few months of chance and at least till I get to ~30-35mgs.

 

What I am worried about is the withdrawl from noradrenaline which will be (almost) cold turkey if i do that switch, what makes me think about switching to venlafaxine firstly (but this time to 75mg and not 150 cause it from only 30 cymbalta) stay couple of weeks, and only after that start bridging with prozac to make noradrenaline reduction more gentle. Also on venlafaxine i were for 5 years long and on cymbalta i will be in the winter only 10 months so my system maybe will tolerate well switching to venlafaxine first because it probably remember it well. What do you think?

 

Of course i will do it with a psychiatrist that will support my plan. I have my current psychiatrist that have accompanied me last 10 years but she doesn't support tapering for me, so i will have to find a new one. 


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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ChessieCat

I've moved all the posts discussing your questions discussing changing from Cymbalta to Prozac from the Tips for Tapering Cymbalta topic.

 

This keeps your history in one place. 

 

Please ask questions specific to your own situation here in your Introduction topic.  Thank you.


Being very patient.  I'll get there - slowly.  ETA mid 2021

ADs:  25 years - 1 unknown, Prozac (caused muscle weakness), Zoloft/sertraline; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after)

Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (mild Serotonin Toxicity)

Began tapering Oct 2015  Current from 17 Oct 2020:  Pristiq 0.56 mg (compounded + liquid)

My tapering program

My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)

My website - includes my brief history + links to videos & information on the web

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.

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Nivsch
On 8/3/2020 at 2:02 AM, ChessieCat said:

I've moved all the posts discussing your questions discussing changing from Cymbalta to Prozac from the Tips for Tapering Cymbalta topic.

 

This keeps your history in one place. 

 

Please ask questions specific to your own situation here in your Introduction topic.  Thank you.

Ok no problem


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

Share this post


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Nivsch

If I have restlessness in my body and urge to walk all the time, maybe akathisia, and It happened 4 days after I reduced the dose by 1% to 51.3 -

1. Is it probably a withdrawl symptom?

2. Can I try magnesium citrate or that its a sign to taper even slower (0.5%)?

Note #1: I had those kind of akathisia evenings even BEFORE I started tapring (then i took the drug in the evening), but this week i think its a little stronger. 

Note #2: This week I started to take the drug in the morning and the restlessness appears more in the middle of the day so i think its probably (or at least partially...) an effect of the drug itself.


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Altostrata
2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

This week I started to take the drug in the morning

 

Yes, changing your drug schedule dramatically can cause worse symptoms. Some people get withdrawal symptoms if they're late by only an hour. And you did this at the same time you made a reduction, which complicates your situation considerably. As you may recall, we recommend making only one change at a time.

 

Perhaps you missed this

 

Symptoms from your change in drug schedule may settle down in a week.

 

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Note #1: I had those kind of akathisia evenings even BEFORE I started tapring (then i took the drug in the evening), but this week i think its a little stronger. 

 

When did these feelings start?


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Nivsch

@Altostrata

OK this explains some things. I read this guide but it helped to read it again. Also this week I made some change in nutrition (back to heavy meals to couple of days) and I suspect maybe it caused the akathisia because its not the first time when my symptoms appears just after this kind of meal. So this week I will remove this food completely, see whats happens, and update next week.

 

58 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

When did these feelings start?

 

In April when I was like a month after I started cymbalta. I think this drug is maybe too stimulating to me.

It will sounds a bit unrational but I am a little afraid to switch to another drug because AFTER I moved to cymbalta, I learned that this is almost the only drug which doesn't make QT prolongation. I know that only Celexa does something significant to the QT and all the rest drugs do an unsignificant prolongation, but for me because of my OCD and anxiety it still make me stressed. Thats why If I will decide to move back to SSRI and switch to proczac, it will be only after cymbalta will be reduced to 30 or below, so the prozac will be only on 10mg, and then it will be ok to me to switch because of the low dose i will not be stressed from the QT issue.

 

thanks!


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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Altostrata

More likely the drug changes caused an increase in your symptoms rather than food.

 

If you've had these symptoms of activation since you started Cymbalta, they're from Cymbalta.


This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Nivsch
1 hour ago, Altostrata said:

More likely the drug changes caused an increase in your symptoms rather than food.

 

If you've had these symptoms of activation since you started Cymbalta, they're from Cymbalta.

is there a difference in how much stimulating is the drug between if I take it with food or if i take it on empty stomach? Because this week because of the transition to the morning, it also made me take the drug (capsule with enteric coating) on empty stomach. The transition to the morning was aimed to make me less stimulated in the evening.


2010-2015 Cipramil 20-40mg. half-year break in the middle which was tough.

2015-2020 Venlafaxine 150-225 mg. Venlafaxine duloxetine cross taper details 

150 for half-year then 225 for a period than stabilized in ~187.5 (1.25 pills) for 2 years than reduced to ~168.5 (1.125 pills).

3.2020 - Duloxetine 60mg.

19.05.2020 - started to taper - 59! 20.5 - 58.5

June 2020: 57. end of June - 55.5

July-August 2020: 5.7 - 54, 9.7 - 52, 12.7 - updose to 53+, 19.7 - 52.3, 26.7 - 51.8, 4.8 51.3, 11.8 - 50.8, 15.8 - updose to 51.0, 17.8 - 50.5.

19.8.2020 - 50.3 📌 (current dose)

 

If you see the withdrawal not as a withdrawal but as a cross-taper of the drug with more nature, more walking, more sunlight and more self care, it will be a lot easier. 🌲🌱

🏯☀️

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