Nivsch: what do you think about reducing 1mg every week

[Altostrata]

Please keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can help us figure out what's going on.

[Nivsch]

On 10/20/2021 at 12:36 AM, Altostrata said:

Please keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can help us figure out what's going on.

 

I did a list but it was the same every day. A big wave in the morning (3-4 hours) and a second wave in the late afternoon/early evening (1-3 hours). I take duloxetine every night at 22:00-23:00. Last couple of days were HELL with health anxiety and fear I will harm my body. I don't want to do nothing bad to myself at all, but the ocd make me do unwanted and uncontrollable compulsions, and this sense of no in control of myself make my fear worse.

The ocd never asks me do things that are really dangerous but only things that I think maybe there is small chance they will be dangerous and the anxiety makes me do that things to relax what doesnt help at all long term. Only immediate relief but than the cycle accelerates.

[ChessieCat]

When Alto asks for notes she wants to see the notes, not your thoughts about the notes.  Alto would not be asking for them if she didn't think they are important.

 

She might see something in your daily notes that you are not able to see.  She has been assisting members on this site since 2011, that is 10 years.

 

It is your decision whether you supply what has been requested.  The staff need the daily symptom notes; no notes, no response from the staff.

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

She might see something in your daily notes that you are not able to see.  She has been assisting members on this site since 2011, that is 10 years.

 

Ok I will try

[Nivsch]

Given the fact the I'm (probably) a fast metabolizer, may it be smarter for me if I want to keep the dose in my body more stable, to split the dose and take half of the dose in the morning and half in the evening?

[ChessieCat]

This was discussed previously.

 

If you do a search for the word split in your topic you will find the posts.

[Nivsch]

I have a question.

Last month my tapering was probably faster than I could tolerate (I believe I reduced a few beads too early) and my anxiety was quite difficult to handle, so at the beginning of the week I updosed by 2 beads (from 369 to 371) and now I am holding at 371 for the last 4 days.

 

My question is not that critical but still, i will say, fundamental for me, to understand how it works. Therefore - important to me.

 

If I will now updose to 372 beads out of a thought that "Maybe I reduced 4 beads too early so crawling up will make me meet my body 'in the middle' and support my stabilization" - Can it fasten my stabilization?

 

Or that holding on 371 will get me stabilize faster (*even though* I *know* this dose (371) is too early to its time)?

[Nivsch]

I start to suspect about something, but maybe this is wrong and there is no really a correlation but anyway:

 

Can it be, that the bigger the reduction is, the more time you will feel no/almost no wd, before they appear?

 

Examples:

 

2% reduction - feel only mild symptoms for a week and only after that - 80% of the symptoms apear during 2nd week.

 

5% reduction - feel the mild 20% for TWO weeks, and only during the 3rd week - the rest 80%.

 

Only 1% reduction - feel (almost) ALL at week one.

 

15% reduction - feel the 20% of symptoms for 3-5 weeks and only after that - the rest 80% of the very bad symptoms will start.

 

What do you think?

 

Note: These are relative examples to explain my idea. Don't take the numbers here as absolute. I dont know/care about the exact % and time frames that vary from one person to another.

[ChessieCat]

From my observations here at SA over the last 7 years, there is no set rule of how reductions and holds affect members.  The suggested taper reduction amount is a harm reduction approach, a general guide.  Some people might be able to go faster than 10% every month whereas some people might need to go slower and/or hold for longer.

 

Some members have found that some doses are harder to get through than others.  There doesn't seem to be any particular drug or dose.

 

For a person's individual taper, there may be a general pattern that they notice, but it may not be the same each time a reduction is made.  If they are sick or experiencing life stressors their withdrawal symptoms me be worse.  For women, their menstrual cycle may affect the severity of their symptoms at different times of the month.

 

It is important for members to listen to their body/symptoms and taper according to those.

[Nivsch]

On 9/14/2022 at 1:19 AM, ChessieCat said:

From my observations here at SA over the last 7 years, there is no set rule of how reductions and holds affect members.  The suggested taper reduction amount is a harm reduction approach, a general guide.  Some people might be able to go faster than 10% every month whereas some people might need to go slower and/or hold for longer.

 

Some members have found that some doses are harder to get through than others.  There doesn't seem to be any particular drug or dose.

 

For a person's individual taper, there may be a general pattern that they notice, but it may not be the same each time a reduction is made.  If they are sick or experiencing life stressors their withdrawal symptoms me be worse.  For women, their menstrual cycle may affect the severity of their symptoms at different times of the month.

 

It is important for members to listen to their body/symptoms and taper according to those.

 

Can it be that when we are at stressed times (during waves, or from another reasons) even a reduction from 371 to 370 beads (0.25%) will be felt? even if I am not that sensitive most of the time?

 

I have a feeling that maybe 1 bead every 4 days (I did only one drop. holding extra time for now...) a month is unexpectedly actually harder than drop 8 beads at ones (and hold 30 days), because in the second option there is only one change. I am just thinking over this question and still dont know what is more right for me.

 

Also when I did monthly decreases, my symptoms appears almost always during the second week and even only in the third week. It made me think wether I droped to much or it becasue brain half life (rather than plasma) make the symptoms come in much more delay.

 

Thank you for the answers.

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

The aim of tapering is keep withdrawal symptoms to a minimum so that you can live your life as normally as possible.  Any reduction, however small, is heading the direction of getting you off the drug.

 

Getting off a psychiatric drug has nothing to do with how strong or determined you are as a person.  It is important to listen to your body/symptoms and not to make another reduction until you are stable.  Members need to observe their symptoms and make the decision about whether they are stable.

 

PATIENCE and non drug coping skills are key to getting off successfully.

 

And the learning of patience as well as non drug techniques to cope helps once you are off the drug too and trying the cope with life in general.

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist

 

Stability

 

WDnormal

 

And Brassmonkey talks more about it here:

 

tao-of-the-brassmonkey

 

I think understanding what is happening can be helpful:

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery
 

On 8/31/2011 at 5:28 AM, Rhiannon said:

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

 

AND

 

  

On 12/27/2015 at 6:37 AM, Altostrata said:

Basically- you have a building where the MAJOR steel structures are [...] to be rebuilt at different times - ALL while people are coming and going in the building and attempting to work.

It would be like if the World Trade Center Towers hadn't completely fallen - but had crumbled inside in different places.. Imagine if you were [...] to rebuild the tower - WHILE people were coming and going and [...] to work in the building!  You'd have to set up a temporary elevator - but when you needed to fix part of that area, you'd have to tear down that elevator and set up a temporary elevator somewhere else. And so on. You'd have to build, work around, then tear down, then build again, then work around, then build... ALL while people are coming and going, ALL while the furniture is being replaced, ALL while the walls are getting repainted... ALL while [...] is going on INSIDE the building. No doubt it would be chaotic. That is EXACTLY what is happening with windows and waves.  The windows are where the body has "got it right" for a day or so - but then the building shifts and the brain works on something else - and it's chaos again while another temporary pathway is set up to reroute function until repairs are made. 

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

On 9/17/2022 at 1:39 AM, ChessieCat said:

The aim of tapering is keep withdrawal symptoms to a minimum so that you can live your life as normally as possible.  Any reduction, however small, is heading the direction of getting you off the drug.

 

Getting off a psychiatric drug has nothing to do with how strong or determined you are as a person.  It is important to listen to your body/symptoms and not to make another reduction until you are stable.  Members need to observe their symptoms and make the decision about whether they are stable.

 

PATIENCE and non drug coping skills are key to getting off successfully.

 

And the learning of patience as well as non drug techniques to cope helps once you are off the drug too and trying the cope with life in general.

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

Dr Joseph Glenmullen's WD Symptoms Checklist

 

Stability

 

WDnormal

 

And Brassmonkey talks more about it here:

 

tao-of-the-brassmonkey

 

I think understanding what is happening can be helpful:

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery
 

 

AND

 

  

 

 

 

Thanks for the in depth answer and all the links, it really helps.

[Victor3]

On 8/21/2020 at 9:29 PM, Nivsch said:

Even if in march I moved from venlafaxine to duloxetine wothout problems? There were no problems.

 

The thing is: I am SCARED to stay on duloxetine because my brain will adapt too much to the noradrenaline that switching to prozac in the future will be maybe problematic if i will decide to.

 

Thats why i want to go back to venlafaxine to cause a GENTLE reduction of noradrenaline (because venlafaxine is still noradregenic but obviousely less) and from there switch to prozac (maybe) in the future if i wont be able to taper slowely. I have been on venlafaxine for 5 years very long time so my system probably remember it well and will adjust well because of this, i think.

 

And now im only 5 months on duloxetine so maybe its time to act NOW to stop the noradrenaline addiction before it will be more difficult in the future.

 

And as i see duloxetine is really activating me physically (as i wrote in our discussion above) so maybe its by itself part of the anxiety and difficulty to taper and what i see is not only the withdrawal but withdrawal mixed with anxiety from noradrenaline.

Hi, how long have you been doing 80 10 10 diet?