jr1985: Effexor / venlafaxine taper

[Altostrata]

jr, don't blame yourself. Have as happy a holiday as you can.

[jr1985]

Thanks Skylar and Alto. It's all a learning experience.

 

I'm thinking the omega-3 is the culprit because someone on another forum claims to have had withdrawals when they stopped taking it. Of course, it's probably more likely to be antidepressant withdrawal after being held at bay by the omega-3. Although, it feels different from Effexor withdrawal.

 

It's frustrating because I don't know why I'm still having these symptoms after I went back on the original omega-3. But I guess it's similar to when I mess up th Effexor timing - it always takes a while for things to settle again.

 

I think once I feel "normal" again I'm just going to hold for a long time to give myself a break.

[dalsaan]

Sounds like a good plan JR

 

I wish you all the best, merry Christmas and happy new year

 

Dalsaan

[jr1985]

Merry Christmas, everyone!

 

I was feeling much better, normal even(!), over the past couple of days. But last night I started having withdrawal symptoms again (ants in my arms and legs, anxiety), so I decided to check the weight of the beads I'd prepared for the week and they're all coming up wrong, even though they were fine when I weighed them out! I think this might explain why there seems to be so much variation in the weight of the capsules - I.e. it's my scales, not the drug company who's at fault!

 

To give an example of how bad they are, one of the capsules I'd prepared was showing as 92mg (should be 89mg). I decided to count the beads and there were 143 (should be about 149 beads). I added 6 beads and reweighed - came up 89mg!! How can it weigh less when I'd added more beads!

 

So I think I'm going to try counting the beads for a week or so o see how it goes. I know there's some variation with that too, but hopefully less than my scales!

[Altostrata]

jr, do you have this type of scale -- here are calibration tips http://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/1596-using-a-digital-scale-to-measure-doses/page__view__findpost__p__13379 Also, are you adding the small weight?

 

More info http://www.awscales.com/portable-precision-scales-01-gram/75-gemini-20-portable-milligram-scale

[brassmonkey]

Hi jr--it really helps to use the small weight, it puts the scale in the middle of its range where it is more acurate. New batteries may help too.

Hope your having a good holiday.

[jr1985]

I discovered if I calibrate it after weighing out each dose, instead of just once at the beginning, it's much more accurate.

 

I counted 149 beads per capsule and weighed each one afterwards. The first one was 89mg and the others varied from 92-95mg. So I reweighed them all again, this time calibrating before each one, and they all weighed 89mg. Maybe counting is just as accurate?

 

I'm wary about using the small weight because sometimes the scale drifts upward when I do.

 

Having a nice day, hope the same for you.

[jr1985]

So I've been getting symptoms (teeth chattering, leg burning/tingling), which I suspect may be caused by me inadvertently increasing the dose, when I changed my weighing method.

 

I suspect it's increased because the symptoms kick in at night after I've taken my daily dose. They go away in the morning, probably because the amount of drug in my blood has fallen.

 

Regardless, I'm gonna keep weighing like this because I reckon it's more accurate than the previous method. It'll just take a while for things to settle.

[jr1985]

Still having symptoms - head pressure, leg tingling. I'm now wondering if its because of all the messing around I did with the omega 3 a few weeks ago. The symptoms feel more like the ones I had when I stopped the omega3 for a few days, although maybe not just as bad. I thought the scales were causing problems but the symptoms feel distinctly different from those I get when I mis-time/dose Effexor. Plus why would they suddenly cause problems now? Any other time symptoms have flare up it was because I messed something up (timing, etc).

 

It might sound crazy that omega 3 could cause problems, but I suppose it makes sense when you consider they're a large component of the entire nervous system. I wonder if missing doses, doubling doses, changing the timing and switching to and from a brand with a different epa/dha content, over the course of a couple of weeks, has introduced some kind of instability that's taking time to resolve? All of the changes I made caused some sort of issue at the time (my legs tingled like CRAZY when I took a capsule in the morning AND evening). If taking Effexor 3 hours late can cause problems for a week, maybe all this messing around can cause symptoms lasting for a few weeks?

 

It's the same old story - symptoms appear for some reason and it drives me crazy because I need to know WHY!? What caused them to appear?? There was always something causing it before - late dosing, etc. The not knowing makes me anxious.

[jr1985]

I've just been looking back over my thread and it actually made me feel better believe it or not. There are a couple of common themes running through it - worrying about my scales and worrying about symptoms reappearing. But the truth is, even though my scales aren't gonna have lab-grade accuracy, they've gotten me this far. As for symptoms reappearing, they have always gone away eventually, until I bugger up the timing or stop taking omega-3, etc. So when these symptoms go away, which I'm sure they will, I just have to be super careful, which should be easier now I know what can trigger my symptoms.

 

Despite my funny head and leg tingling, I think I'm doing ok - I can sleep, eat, play games, go out with friends, study psychology, go to work, etc. Things will get even better, as long as I hold for a good while.

 

EDIT: I forgot to say, it occurred to me that if omega3 is in fact crucial for my stability, and messing around with it causes symptoms, then it may explain why I had so much trouble when I took my Effexor late or tried to shift the time forward - I take both at the same time! So my nervous system is having to adjust to two changes, not one!

[dalsaan]

Hi JR

 

I think its a really empowering thing to read through your thread, pick up trends and make good decisions for yourself based on that.

 

well done, I hope this helps with your health and how you experience your withdrawal

 

Dalsaan

[Altostrata]

You really seem to be extraordinarily sensitive, jr. Stability is absolutely key for you.

[jr1985]

Yep, I must have gave my system a huge shock with the rapid taper from Effexor to mirtazapine, mirtazapine to Effexor, Effexor to citalopram, then finally, citalopram to Effexor. Not to mention there were stimulants in the mix. :-(

 

Oh well, I could be much worse off. I'm just glad I reinstated Effexor when I did. I guess it's just a waiting game now until my system settles itself.

 

Bearing in mind, I have had moments of stability, where I felt completely "normal". In fact, the day the clocks changed was the first time I felt normal in a while. Then of course the symptoms reappeared that evening because of the time change!

[Skyler]

Thanks for your post on my thread... YES, the profile is similar to the that of RLS. And now that I"m sensitized, I can't take ANY medication that can cause tinnitus.. whether tylenol, or Motrin.. NADA because of the cross over. LOL, and the same goes for my RLS, which are no longer just caused by psychotropics.

 

I am very cautious reading drug labels at the pharmacy.. and I do a cross reference on the computer when I get home. I'm concerned about getting a cold because I can no longer take anything for a stuffy nose! (I have to for a cough because I get asthmatic bronchitis, but so far so good)

 

The crap we mindlessly put into our systems... YIKES!

[jr1985]

I seem to get getting windows and waves. I feel normal for a few days then my teeth start chattering, head feels weird and arms and legs start tingling. I'm taking the windows of normality as a good sign.

 

But I can't escape the fear that I may be doing something wrong that may be triggering the waves, like inaccurate weighing, etc. In saying that though, this weirdness started when I was messing around with omega-3, so may it's residual instability from that.

[jr1985]

Right, it seems counting beads is making me worse. My arms and legs are ok-ish but my head feels weird and I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't get back to sleep. My mood's not great either. Soo.. I weighed out the beads using my olds scales and then using my new scales, and compared the number of beads. On average, the new scales give more beads, so I suspect the old scales aren't weighing properly, which may be causing some withdrawal.

 

It wouldn't be so bad if I was actually tapering, but the fact that I'm holding to get stable, yet still having symptoms is very frustrating.

[jr1985]

After looking back over my thread it looks like 89-90mg is 145 beads on average, NOT 149 like I thought! Also, using a new scale caused issues before, so I think I'll go back to the old ones

 

I discovered you're supposed to set the pan on the scale, tare, lift it off, place beads on pan, and set it back on scale. I was just dumping beads on the pan while it sat on the scale before. Oops.

 

I'm starting to annoy myself with all this chopping and changing!

[Skyler]

I discovered you're supposed to set the pan on the scale, tare, lift it off, place beads on pan, and set it back on scale. I was just dumping beads on the pan while it sat on the scale before. Oops.

 

I'm starting to annoy myself with all this chopping and changing!

LOL, just starting to annoy yourself??

 

I tare pans on my food scale so have no difficulty understanding how the need alluded you. I've been around kitchens for a long time, but still did not know until I looked it up on Google!!!! Duh?

 

Dunno Jr.. I would feel better using the more accurate scale. Have you tried the scale with something innocuous like sugar while you tare the pan and cross check for reliability? ARGH, there is a myriad of factors that can destabilize WD symptoms of the 'immediate' variety!!

 

Skyler

[areyouthere]

Right, it seems counting beads is making me worse. My arms and legs are ok-ish but my head feels weird and I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't get back to sleep. My mood's not great either. Soo.. I weighed out the beads using my olds scales and then using my new scales, and compared the number of beads. On average, the new scales give more beads, so I suspect the old scales aren't weighing properly, which may be causing some withdrawal.

 

It wouldn't be so bad if I was actually tapering, but the fact that I'm holding to get stable, yet still having symptoms is very frustrating.

 

TOTALLY understand this!!! I am about to make a cut next week after a month long hold and will combining weighing and an oral suspension..... managing variables is very challenging and when you're sensitive to changes it's kind of hard. Not panicking is a good thing and you seem ok with controlling that ( NOT panicking can be just as hard as controlling the variables!!) so good job JR.

 

Stay cool. Where I am now that won't be hard. - 22˚ wind chill. brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

 

PS. At least the sun is shining!!!

[jr1985]

I discovered you're supposed to set the pan on the scale, tare, lift it off, place beads on pan, and set it back on scale. I was just dumping beads on the pan while it sat on the scale before. Oops.

 

I'm starting to annoy myself with all this chopping and changing!

LOL, just starting to annoy yourself??

 

I tare pans on my food scale so have no difficulty understanding how the need alluded you. I've been around kitchens for a long time, but still did not know until I looked it up on Google!!!! Duh?

 

Dunno Jr.. I would feel better using the more accurate scale. Have you tried the scale with something innocuous like sugar while you tare the pan and cross check for reliability? ARGH, there is a myriad of factors that can destabilize WD symptoms of the 'immediate' variety!!

 

Skyler

 

LOL, Skyler!

 

I tare the pan, but I didn't realise you're supposed to lift it up afterwards and put the beads on the pan, then set the pan+beads on the scales. I was setting the pan on the scales, hitting tare, then dumping the beads on the pan. But really, any time my symptoms have flared up in the past it's been due to timing, etc. The scales haven't caused any major issues that I've been aware of, except when I tried to use new ones, despite me obsesing over them(!).

 

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the present symptoms are from messing around with the omega-3. It feels distinct from the Effexor-related withdrawal and the symptoms get worse about two hours after taking my Effexor AND Omega-3. Apparently, Omega-3 can raise serotonin, which may explain the withdrawal effects I felt when I missed a few doses. I'm back on the original dose, but I still don't feel 100%. Do you (or Alto, maybe?) know if it's possible that the omega-3 dose might be too high now, even if it was fine before? Maybe I need to lower the dose. On the other hand, maybe it's just taking time to get stable again, and messing with things could set me off again... Maybe I should wait until the end of February before changing the omega-3?

 

My arms/legs feel ok at the moment, my head, however, feels a bit spacey, I'm slightly irritable and apathetic (moreso than usual). My head just feels "off"...

[jr1985]

Right, I weighed my beads with the original scales, using the small weight on the pan, and by lifting the pan off, setting beads on, then setting pan on scale (instead of dumping beads on pan, while it's actually no the scale!). This seems to be the most accurate way to do it, according to this site and elsewhere.

 

I also counted the beads in each capsule and they had all around 145-146, which is the number I'm supposed to have (NOT 149!), according to a post I made months ago.

 

I think the problem has been, firstly, messing with Omega-3, which caused the initial instability. Then I changed the way I weigh my beads (the wrong way!). Then I started counting (the wrong number of) beads, which seems to have kept me unstable. Hopefully, this new method will help me reach stability!

[jr1985]

I've felt a lot better since I went back to weighing beads. It feels like my motivation has returned and the head weirdness is greatly reduced. It may just be a window but I remain positive.

 

I've been doing a little experiment with my bead preparation. I'm weighing them all to 89mg (~37mg) which is the dose I've been on for a while, then I count them and keep a record of symptoms to see if they correlate with the number of beads. If they do, then it suggests the variation in bead number is due to the scales being inaccurate. The amount of beads ranges from 141-148, which seems like a lot but I've weighed them repeatedly and they come out the same. But it could be because the beads don't all weigh the same, which means sticking to 149 beads was a bad idea (it's not the same dose!).

[Altostrata]

Right, the beads don't all weigh the same. I'm sorry this is so complicated, jr, but I must say you are dealing with the challenges very well.

[jr1985]

I have good news and bad news. He good news is, I've felt much better this past week than I have in a while. The bad news is, today I have some noticeable withdrawal symptoms. My records say the last capsule I took only had 141 beads, compared with around 145 on average. But the scales said they weighed the same. Hmm, maybe the scales are a problem after all?

[peggy]

i don't know if there is anyway to get the weight right AND the number of beads! I think the only way to do it is to be consistent in the method we choose. I suppose if counting I could open each capsule, count each capsule and then work out the dosage based on that particular capsule - that would be VERY tedious, but may end up being necessary.

 

I am counting and getting variations - i use brand name 37.5mg capsules and find there are between 121 and 140 in varying capsules, with an average of about 128. So, that is what i work on: .29mg per bead. It's very frustrating when we get to lower doses as 3 beads can almost be 1mg.

[dalsaan]

I take my hat off to you. This bead business must be very frustrating but you are doing a good job sorting through it.

 

Am thinking of you

 

Dalsaan

[jr1985]

Thanks, Dalsaan. From my testing, I think the scales are probably fine. I have days when I feel ok and days when I have symptoms, even when the weight and number of beads match.

 

I suspect the omega-3 "incident" destabilised me, and switching from weighing to counting probably made it worse. I think this must be the case because that is when all this weirdness started and I haven't changed anything else.

 

I do wonder now though if the destabilisation has made me sensitive to my regular omega-3 dose. The symptoms start not long after taking my next dose. Although I take Effexor and O-3 at the same time. Then again, I have days where it doesn't cause any symptoms! I'm hesitant to change anything (like taking a smaller dose) because it might just make things worse!

[jr1985]

Does anyone else live in fear that their doctor will one day cut them off of their AD? Ever since my doctor tried to switch me to a different brand, with fewer beads, I've been terrified every time I go to pick up my prescription, that they'll switch me. Then today my dads doctor reluctantly prescribed him more citalopram. It scares and baffles me that he could have just cut him off completely, without realising the danger. In fact it makes me angry - it's ignorance (withdrawal doesn't exist/isn't serious) mixed with arrogance (I'm the doctor, I'm right!)

 

I worry that one day ill have to try and fight for my Effexor prescription and lose because I'm not good with confrontation. I keep all my spare beads just in case...

[tezza]

Hi jr,

 

Yes, I've had the fear of not having my medicine before. I got all the refills each month even though I wasn't out of the medicine. It's a terrible thing to fear losing something you hate so much.

 

By all means, I would save those extra beads too. I feel for you guys that have to deal with the beads, I can imagine what a pain that must be. I'd probably be chasing those little balls all over the room!

[tezza]

I forgot to say- I'm glad your dad got his refill!

[jr1985]

Thanks, tezza.

 

I went swimming today. Felt really out of it afterwards but then ok a little while later. Now I'm having some anxiety/depression relating to my studies/future.

 

During my previous studies, and even now, I get really overwhelmed by the amount of information we are required to learn for the exam. It's so much I literally feel like I've no idea where to start, so I start panicking and my brain seems to shut down and I get depressed/anxious, then I just can't function. In school, used to be able to just memorize my notes off the night before the exam and do ok, but not anymore. I've come up with a few possible explanations over the years...

 

Increased workload at university level.

 

Asperger's Syndrome - I was diagnosed by a clinical psychologist, who specialised in AS, a few years ago. We're supposed to have impaired short-term memory and executive functions, which could make university studies seem overwhelming. Perfectionist tendencies may also contribute.

 

ADHD - I was diagnosed by a psychiatrist and put on Ritalin about 2 years ago. It seemed to work really well for me, but after the Effexor-fiasco, it stopped working and actually just made me worse.

 

Medication - supposedly, anti-depressants can cause ADD-like symptoms in someone, and could presumably exacerbate those that are already present. This is the theory I'm hoping is true, all I need to do is get off Effexor and I'll be able to finish my degree without the awful anxiety. Wishful thinking, perhaps.

 

Maybe it's a combination of all of the above. The perfectionist tendencies from AS make me feel like I have to do really well. But trying to study to that level is extremely difficult for me, due to the impaired executive functions, short-term memory and poor attention/motivation. Trying to study something that may not be all that interesting is a nightmare when you've no motivation. I just wish I had an easy answer to all of this.

[jr1985]

As for Psychology, I thought I'd be really interested in it, and I do enjoy some of it, but other parts are just so tedious. I don't like how a lot of it is like "here's one theory for why people behave a certain way" "here's another" "no body really knows which one is right"... In my previous course I was studying biology, so it was much more fact-based.

[tezza]

Hi jr,

 

I need to learn about the Aspergers Syndrome. I will be looking into it as I've been told that I'm too much of a perfectionist on a couple of different jobs.

 

I was told that it could be a disadvantage to me because it leads me to spend too much time at any particular task. I had never thought of it like that so it bothered me a bit.

 

When I was in fifth grade, I got a 98 on a test and cried for several days because it was not 100.

 

Don't be too hard on yourself about school; if it's anything like when I went to college, it's "information overload".

 

You're doing well to be attending classes while going through withdrawal, IMO.

 

I wish the best for you!

 

Tezza

[jr1985]

I actually study from home now. It's supposed to be part-time but even that is a lot of information!

 

Do you think it's possible that SSRI's could have caused (or contributed to) the difficulties I had/have at university?

[jr1985]

Hmm, it's strange that this issue has popped up all of a sudden. I've been ok-ish up until now

 

Is it possible the exercise I did today caused an anxious-depressive episode? Related to cortisol maybe?

[tezza]

I'd suppose the medications could cause difficulty, especially concerning memory and concentration.

 

Alto or Rhi would probably be better to answer you about the exercise/cortisol question. I've always thought exercise was supposed to be healing to our CNS.