dream: relapse due to Paxil reduction

[Altostrata]

3 hours ago, dream said:

 

@Altostrata

no, but some mottos I add a few drops of rivotril to sleep, but only when needed and if at all I'm completely insomniac ..
 

I read your 11-year history of withdrawal symptoms… I have heartbreak for you… But have they always been on the acute level?

 

Rivotril is a strong benzodiazepine, clonazepam. You may get rebound anxiety or insomnia when this wears off. Please discuss your clonazepam use with @Frogie

 

No, like most people, I had acute withdrawal symptoms for less than a couple of months. I had protracted withdrawal for 11 more years. I recovered about 6 years ago. I don't have time to discuss this further here, sorry.

[Frogie]

HI @dream

 

How much clonazepam do you take a day? At what time? Do you take it everyday?

 

You become dependent on it in 2 weeks, even using it here and there. Your body will "crave" it.

 

After you answer these questions, I'd be happy to help you set up a consistent schedule with it.

[dream]

@ranocchiohello,

 

as you suggested I take 0.5mg in the morning and 1mg in the evening for insomnia. from November to today, as I was terribly ill, I took 2mg only 7 days (almost 1 day a week) in the evening.

[Frogie]

You have become dependent on it unfortunately by now. 

 

I would space your doses out evenly 3 times a day to avoid breakthrough withdrawal.

[dream]

@ranocchio

 

😞 as soon as I stabilize, is the reduction schedule always 10% every 4 weeks?

[Frogie]

Yes stabilize then 10% every 4-6 weeks. But there may be months that you only taper 5% or nothing, you have to listen to your body, not just go by a schedule.

[dream]

@ranocchio thanks you, very very much ❤️🙏

 

 

[Frogie]

You are very welcome.

[dream]

@Sebas hello, thank you very much for your suggestions. ❤️
I read your story ... but how long did it take you for your symptoms to stabilize?

 

 

[Sebas]

WD is still ongoing but feeling better in general. Stabilisation may take weaks or sometimes months. In a windows (good days) and waves (bad days) pattern. Also depending on other life circumstances (work, health, stress, relationship etc). So be kind to yourself and take it easy. Take afternoon naps whenever you feel overwhelmed by wd, exercise on a regular basis, not too intense, go outside for walks, eat healthy, watch tv, relax. Focus on midterm goals and (drug) (free) strategy. After stabilisation, take a few weeks to let CNS settle down, also get soms good advice how to taper clonazepam. 🤌👊👋

[dream]

@ Altostrato Ciao, 

 

Sono così devastato dai sintomi... ho paura che non migliorerò mai... Anche i pensieri ossessivi possono essere un sintomo di astinenza? Anche le emozioni positive aumentano i miei sintomi... Com'è possibile? I also often have pain in the chest and when I have a lot of tachycardia or arrhythmias .. 

 

deepL Translation:

 

Hi,

 

I am so devastated by the symptoms... I am afraid I will never get better.... Can obsessive thoughts also be a symptom of withdrawal? Even positive emotions increase my symptoms.... How is this possible? I also often have pain in the chest and when I have a lot of tachycardia or arrhythmias ... 

 

Grazie

❤️

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by ChessieCat
added translation

[Altostrata]

Nobody seems to like withdrawal syndrome, and paroxetine is particularly difficult to go off. Have you always had a fatalistic outlook? If so, you are reacting  in a habitual way to adversity. To get through this bad period, you'll have to manage this tendency.

 

See 

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Neuro-emotions

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals 

 

Shame, guilt, regret, and self-criticism

 

Health anxiety, hypochondria, and obsession with symptoms

 

Are We There Yet? How Long is Withdrawal Going to Take?

 

"Is it always going to be like this?"

 

The importance of recognizing you're feeling good

 

Overwhelmed, demotivated, apathetic? Cannot get going on interest or action

 

Apathy, anhedonia, emotional numbness, emotional anesthesia

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

[dream]

@Altostrato thank you very much from my heart. can you help me find help topics for insomnia?

thank thank thank

[Frogie]

You might take a look at this:

 

Sleep problems - that awful withdrawal insomnia

[Sebas]

Posted 1 hour ago

@Sottana hello, My day has worsened catastrophically, I feel terrible ... I was better days ago, I don't understand ... 

 

Withdrawal doesn't behave in a linear pattern, but comes in windows and waves. Sometimes waves can be triggered by certain (social) events, stress, food and drinks, supplements etc.

 

Like you noticed above, even dopamine and endorphines can sometimes trigger waves.

 

Think back what may have triggered this wave. So you can exclude or manage it next time. 

[dream]

@Sebas @Altostrato

@Frogie @Sottana

thank of all.

I am really very bad and I feel on the edge and I am afraid for my heart. honestly, when is it time to give up on resisting and go back to taking paroxetine forever? i need you ... I'm at the limit ..

 

[Altostrata]

You have already shown signs of overusing clonazepam. It's very possible your current symptoms are from too much clonazepam.

 

In November, we asked you to keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

 

You did this exactly once. We need to see this every day.

 

It's up to you if you want to go back on paroxetine. If you want to do this, please discuss it with your doctor. Let us know if you want to reduce or taper any of your drugs.

 

 

[Sebas]

On 6/5/2020 at 3:37 PM, Gridley said:

Every time you make big changes in your drugs, your system becomes more and more sensitized.  That explains why the other times you were able to stabilize and why this time it is difficult.  You need to make no changes to your drugs.   Time is the cure, and we can't predict how long it will take.  We can say you will get better if you hold where you are and make no further changes.

 

@Gridley was right. I've been reading back your page and you have too frequently been changing (tapering too fast, updosing again, tapering too fast, updosing, adding Xanax, increasing Xanax etc.). When all you should do is just change your taper strategy by taking smaller steps and recovery time.

 

Then withdrawal will be managed better and you won't be so much dependant on Xanax for severe withdrawal management, which on it's turn may possibly interfere with paxil withdrawal in a certain way. So for a durable taper you need a change of strategy.

 

The only recommended way to taper paxil is in a very slow and steady way. It will take years and lots, lots of discipline, coping and perseverance. There's no fast or easy way and withdrawal symptoms should not be masked by increasing an added drug.

 

You may in the past have had the idea that you almost weaned off, but when you go too fast withdrawal will track you down, sometimes months after. In your case during season change when sunshine has gone and some people suffer from seasonal backlash.  

 

There's no guarantee when CNS had become oversensitized that increasing paxil back up is gonna help feeling less troubled. How much Xanax are you currently using?  

[Sebas]

On 11/12/2021 at 4:15 PM, dream said:

with paroxetine at 1.5, for a month and a half, I feel worse, a few days better, but when I feel bad the symptoms are more severe

For example: going from 2.0 to 1.5 mg may seem like a small step but is in fact a very large decrease of 25%. Especially at lower doses decreases should be very low. For example 2.0 x 0.95 = 1.9 mg.

[Sebas]

2 hours ago, dream said:

I am really very bad and I feel on the edge and I am afraid for my heart. honestly, when is it time to give up on resisting and go back to taking paroxetine forever?

Your heart may be going fast or unsteady (mine is also 20-30 bpm higher than normal), but most users who have had their heart checked out (ECG) due to withdrawl, had no medical heart problems. I agree it's the clonazepam effect on top of paxil wd. Taking paroxetine forever means, in my opinion, delaying future issues.

[dream]

@Sebas I can't afford to spend months or years in bed. I have 2 daughters who need me. what is the purpose of this agony? lose years of life for what? I'm crazy

[dream]

@Altostrato I can't afford to spend months or years in bed. I have 2 daughters who need me. what is the purpose of this agony? lose years of life for what? I'm crazy

 

Could a 5mg reset work? how to do it? I will be a coward, a lousy, less good than you, but I give up, the symptoms are beyond my reach

[Altostrata]

I have advised you to the best of my ability. If you do not care to discuss your clonazepam usage, I don't believe we can help you here. Your next step is up to you. 

[dream]

@Altostrato You don't know how grateful I am to you for everything you've done and what I wish I could do to relieve myself. I really broke out tonight, took 2mg clonazepam and 30 drops xanax. a hell.I am a very fragile girl physically and I can no longer stand ... I am doing myself more harm than good

[dream]

@Altostrato You don't know how demoralized I am and I feel like a poop at the thought of giving up my path, but I have to be honest with myself.

I have learned a lot from this experience and would like to try to reset to taper more slowly in some time

[dream]

@Altostrato Do you consider this reasoning completely wrong? I may die sooner as an old woman, but I can't waste days watching my daughters grow up. It's a love choice and usually these choices are never wrong, even if they involve a sacrifice for me.

[dream]

@Altostrato Could trying to take sertraline be a good idea? it seems to me that it is easier to remove then ..

the esteem in your comparison is so great that I hope you will help me in this new path

[Altostrata]

22 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You have already shown signs of overusing clonazepam. It's very possible your current symptoms are from too much clonazepam.

 

In November, we asked you to keep daily notes of times o’clock you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time o’clock on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

 

You did this exactly once. We need to see this every day.

 

[dream]

@ Altostrato

@Altostrato

6:30 Mi alzo già ansioso (cortisolo mattutino??) e stanco ieri (l'insonnia di sera) prendo 0,5 mg di clonazepam

7:00 colazione,  1,75 mg di paroxetina  ,  omega 3, 

Mi sento stanco, perché ho dormito poco e un nodo allo stomaco, tacchicardia

10:00 migliora leggermente la stanchezza, ma aumenta il nodo allo stomaco

12:00 pranzo  prendo omega 3.

13:30 dopo pranzo aumenta molto la stanchezza e la tachicardia, tremori  , prendo 0,5mg di clonazepam  , e mi aiuta un po' a contenerlo.  una volta riuscivo a dormire, ora che sono in astinenza non dormo più. 

20:00 cena

21:30  prendo 1 mg di colazepam e 1 mg di melatonina  .  Posso addormentarmi, ma poi mi sveglio sempre alle 4 e non dormo più.  questo mi indebolisce molto e rende le mie giornatesgradevoli.

 

una volta alla settimana la sera prendo 2 mg di clonazepam perché sono distrutto

 

I do the same ogni giorno

[Altostrata]

Please post in English.

[Sebas]

@Sebas

 I can't afford to spend months or years in bed. I have 2 daughters who need me. what is the purpose of this agony? lose years of life for what? 

 

All of us have emotional, physical, social, relationship- and workrelated issues. So you're not alone. 

 

I took a look at your schedule above. I have 2 things to advice you.

1. Do not change clonazepam dose, not even once a week. Keep dosages steady. Everytime you change dosage, your nerve system gets upset. 

 

2. If you get response after lunch than possibly it's something you eat or drink at lunch. What do you have for lunch? Starting to-morrow stop taking omega 3 at lunch.

 

Bye Sebas

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by ChessieCat
Resized font

[Sebas]

3. Another thing i would advice is to stop taking melatonin*.

 

* I found several studies online that show risk of interaction between 1. melatonin and ssri and 2. melatonin and benzodiazepines. In current situation you need to minimalize drug interaction.

 

Keep posting daily notes next week and then (re)evaluate.

[Altostrata]

Thanks, @Sebas I do not believe that melatonin interacts that much with drugs, but if it's not helping, it's not helping.

 

@dream I need to see your daily notes in English, please.

[dream]

@Altostrato

unfortunately the withdrawal symptoms were too strong, and I had to resume paroxetine at 20 mg, to my great regret. usually in a month it took effect, now it's been two months but I still don't see the benefits. what could have happened? what do you suggest me? I had to give up because I was starting to have heart problems, the electrocardiogram was no longer in place, I had altered heartbeats and having inheritance in the family, I had to give up so as not to get worse with other symptoms

[ChessieCat]

3 hours ago, dream said:

I had to resume paroxetine at 20 mg

 

Please update your drug signature with the dose/s and the date/s for you restarting your paroxetine:

 

Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

[Altostrata]

@dream, why are you taking 20mg paroxetine? Did a doctor prescribe it? Did you tell the doctor about your symptoms?

 

If it hasn't helped, maybe 20mg is too much or upset your system more. Did you change your benzo dose as well?

 

On 1/16/2022 at 11:30 AM, Sebas said:

* I found several studies online that show risk of interaction between 1. melatonin and ssri and 2. melatonin and benzodiazepines. In current situation you need to minimalize drug interaction.

 

Thanks for your comments, @Sebas At the low dosages we recommend, melatonin does not pose these risks. Those interactions (which I doubt exist) are not significant.