MindDrift: olanzapine / Zyprexa withdrawal, then Citalopram withdrawal

[MindDrift]

@Altostrata

 

Hi everyone.

 

I’ve not really been posting too much but thought I might try to a bit more regularly from now on.

 

It’s almost a year since I reinstated & I’ve held at 2.5mg Citalopram for a good few months now. I think I’m doing much better though still having some challenging times.

 

I think that the combination of my CNS starting to heal over time, the other things I’ve been doing that are documented in this thread & the Ayurvedic lifestyle that I’ve embraced & started practicing are all helping. I’m not sure exactly what is doing what, but I’m hoping that all the different elements are starting to have a combined positive healing effect. Right now it seems like the fierce edge of symptoms that I’ve had periods of over the last year is starting to soften somewhat. I couldn’t swear to it but it does seem like the waves are getting shorter too. I’m aware that this is a totally non linear journey & there doesn’t seem to be any rhyme or reason to the “waves & windows” pattern of healing. I’ve had periods like this before though, where symptoms have been relatively minimal, only to be plunged back into another massively uncomfortable wave of PAWS, so I don’t wanna tempt fate too much.

 

I just wanted to start posting again, to let others who feel like their world is ending, know that things will get better. It may be a very slow process of healing for some of us but it will improve, at least it does seem to be for me anyway. 

 

Another thing that has kept me going has been the amazing support from everyone here. Also, right throughout my very darkest days, the thing I’ve held onto is that although this has been one of the most challenging times in my entire life, all the research that I’ve done would suggest that what we’re going through is not degenerative & that it will get better. Maybe not overnight, but eventually, so there is hope.

 

 

Keep the faith everyone. x

[ChessieCat]

Thank you for letting us know how you are doing.  It's good to hear that things are improving.

[Ariel]

@MindDrift

 

What a generous, encouraging post! 

 

I'm happy for you that you are experiencing improvements. 

 

Thank you for this inspiring update. Your words brighten my day. 

 

I agree with you that SA is a source of amazing support. Your kindness and conscientiousness are a shining example of how we co-create this extraordinary community.  

 

Wishing you well on your healing journey,

A. 

[MindDrift]

Hi everyone.

 

Hoping this message finds you all making progress, or at least getting through what we’re going through.

 

I’ve not had the best of weeks in terms of PAWS but almost a year after reinstatement, it’s been much better than it was. 

 

I’ve had periods of feeling disconnected from people, had withdrawal headaches & that general bodily discomfort & feeling of being a bit physically run down. The increased mental/ emotional discomfort can still be a challenge but the severity is nowhere near where it was. I’ve also had brief periods where not only have I felt completely symptom free, but I’ve felt a great certainty & anticipation about the future.

 

There’s also been significant changes in my lifestyle since I went to see an Ayurvedic practitioner about eight weeks ago. There’s three really big changes that she suggested: Different diet that amongst other things, has steered me towards natural unprocessed whole foods & away from things that have lots of additives/ preservatives & other ingredients that aren’t that good for me. Different types of meditation have been beneficial too. The Ayurvedic practitioner also prescribed herbal supplements for me to take every day. I’m told that these changes are going to aid in the healing of my destabilised CNS that got badly damaged when I came off Citalopram too quickly. 

 

The supplements are said to work on different systems in the body that are connected to the CNS. It’s been well documented that these many systems are all interwoven so it seems logical to me that treating & taking care of them can only have a positive effect on healing my CNS. That’s the theory anyway. As with any changes that I’ve made in the last year there always seems to be an adjustment period. I had some “start up effects” when I started taking the supplements, they did pass pretty quickly though. I do think my CNS is getting more stable, as I remember during the few weeks before I reinstated that amongst other things, even eating a full meal could trigger a wave of withdrawal. I’m not promoting or advocating this lifestyle change in any way, and not even suggesting anyone else should try it either, it’s just my experience of what I’m doing & how it’s working out for me. I’m just hoping that the combination of everything I’m doing is going to have a positive effect. I think it is but only time will tell.

 

I thought I might try to do these posts every week or so. At least I can document my journey through all of this, and who knows, maybe it’ll help someone else who is on a similar path.

 

Even if you’re only at the start of the tapering/ withdrawal process, and are having a difficult time, always try to remember that a journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step.

 

Keep the faith people. x

[Ariel]

@MindDrift

Hi there,

How are you feeling?

I noticed a message you posted in Frederick's thread, where you write that you've been to see a cranial osteopath.

Out of curiosity, what was your experience like?

Best wishes <3 

[MindDrift]

55 minutes ago, Ariel said:

 

 

@Ariel

 

Hey Ariel!

 

Thanks for your message.

 

Yeah, I went for the first time last Thursday. It was to see a cranial osteopath that was recommended by the Ayurvedic practitioner I see. He's got a fair bit of experience of seeing people who are in my situation (PAWS, destabilised CNS etc.)

 

He said I might feel a bit spaced out after which was 100% right and that I might have a bit of a wave of symptoms, which he's been right about too. I started to feel some symptoms that evening which have continued. This morning I woke up feeling pretty bad & this is after about 6 or 7 weeks of feeling much better on the whole. I've found that whenever I've made any significant changes to my lifestyle/ diet etc there have almost always been a wave of symptoms. There's been two major things I've recently started: one is juicing every day (celery, coriander, parsley & ginger) and now the cranial osteopathy. In the past the waves have settled down & then I've started to feel the benefits of the changes. Maybe the two things together were a bit too much. I'm going to give it a few days & review the situation. He wants to see me once a month so will see how I feel before then.

 

He also said that as it was our first session he didn't know how intensely to work on me so asked me to report back about how I've been feeling in the days after. Ha! I think maybe he did a bit too much! 

 

How's it going with you? Have you any experience of the cranial osteopathy?

 

x

 

 

[Ariel]

@MindDrift

This sounds really interesting. 

Could you say more about your experience of the actual treatment, what the practitioner does during the session? 

I'm very curious to hear more about it, if you don't mind sharing. 

 

On 6/7/2022 at 11:01 PM, MindDrift said:

Have you any experience of the cranial osteopathy?

 

No, I'd never even heard of it before. 

I've tried craniosacral therapy, both regular and biodynamic kinds, and have had mostly good experiences, esp. with the biodynamic variety. 

It sounds like they might be somewhat related modalities. 

 

I hope things settle down for you and you start to feel benefits of the treatment.

Keep us posted?

[MindDrift]

@Altostrata

 

Hey Alto!

 

Hope you're well today.

 

I've been recommended to take Natures Answer 4000IU (100mcg per serving) Vitamin D-3 drops.

 

Wasn't sure if these would aggravate the PWS or help with the healing?

 

What do you think?

 

x

[ChessieCat]

There are many existing topics on SA.  You can use the site search function or an internet search engine and add site:survivingantidepressants.org

 

I suggest that before asking general questions like this that you do your own research. 

 

Q:  Have you had this tested to see if you do have a vitamin D deficiency?

 

If not, I suggest you do.

 

Vitamin D is a daytime vitamin and is best taken in the morning.  Some members find that even taking it first thing in the day that it affects their sleep.

 

4000iu is a very high dose.  When I was low in Vit D the doctor had me take that dose but never told me to follow up to see if I needed to continue taking that dose or could reduce it.  I found out many years later that there taking too high a dose is not good for you.  I cannot remember why.

 

the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable

 

Only make one change at a time, only try a small amount of something and increase slowly.

 

vitamin-d3-cholecalciferol-or-calcitriol

[Altostrata]

Hello, @MindDrift How many drops are in a serving? How many vit D3 IU are in one drop?

 

We can't tell its effect until you try it. Best to try a very small dose first, maybe not a whole serving.

[Alibe]

Hello, I am following your thread. How has the ayurvedic medicine worked for you?

[MindDrift]

On 6/9/2022 at 6:32 PM, Ariel said:

@MindDrift

This sounds really interesting. 

Could you say more about your experience of the actual treatment, what the practitioner does during the session? 

I'm very curious to hear more about it, if you don't mind sharing. 

 

 

No, I'd never even heard of it before. 

I've tried craniosacral therapy, both regular and biodynamic kinds, and have had mostly good experiences, esp. with the biodynamic variety. 

It sounds like they might be somewhat related modalities. 

 

I hope things settle down for you and you start to feel benefits of the treatment.

Keep us posted?

@Ariel

 

Sorry for slow response!

 

The actual treatment itself felt quite gentle & it didn't seem like there was much happening. Long periods with the practitioners hands laid on me in different places: back, neck, back of the legs, shoulders etc. I came out feeling properly spaced out & very relaxed. However the day after I started to feel a wave of really unpleasant PAWS creep up on me. It lasted for a couple of weeks I think. I've not been back as I think it was way too powerful for my destabilised CNS. 

 

The juicing I stopped too. Again, it was just too powerful for me at this time in my recovery.

[MindDrift]

18 minutes ago, Alibe said:

Hello, I am following your thread. How has the ayurvedic medicine worked for you?

@Alibe

 

Hi there!

 

It's going really well thanks!

 

I think it's definitely having a positive effect, but some of the things that have been suggested, as documented above, have been too intense for me.

 

Recently tried earthing/ grounding which I was doing by 20 mins of barefoot walking on grass every day which felt great & was really good for me. Tried the earthing sheets/ mats, which were way too powerful for my CNS and triggered waves of symptoms.

 

I also think that all the stuff I've tried & had to let go of for now: juicing, earthing, cranial osteopathy etc can be a part of the healing but I'm just not ready for them yet.

 

Another thing I've found is that any new treatments I've tried have had to be brought in very slowly & given time to work whilst my CNS adjusts. 

 

I made a decision that I was going to try out lots of different things to try to aid the process. Some have worked right away, some have not, and some of them I've had to pause & maybe come back to when I'm a a bit further along. x

 

 

 

[Hanna72]

Hi @MindDrift

How are you doing ?

[MindDrift]

@Hanna72

 

Hi Hanna.

 

Thanks for your message. Lovely to hear from you.

 

I’m much better thanks!

 

I’m still held at 2.5mg Citalopram daily, which is where I’ve been for over a year. I’m still getting symptoms but the waves are fewer, shorter and much less intense.

 

I think that time is the major factor in my CNS starting to heal but I’ve also been very pro-active in trying to find things to help it along.

 

I’ve documented a few things I’ve tried in previous posts that haven’t worked or were a bit too powerful for my battered little CNS, but I seem to have also found things that have really helped. 

 

I think the Ayurvedic lifestyle I started practicing almost a year ago has had a positive effect on the healing. Wheatgrass shots every morning seem to be good for me too. I started doing Yoga Nidra meditation which was recommended for me as it works on the CNS.

 

I’ve also been communing with nature daily & using this as a sort of emotional/ spiritual therapy. Barefoot walking in the Summer has been very beneficial. I’m in the UK so definitely can’t do it any other time of year as I’m told it might have a detrimental effect. I decided to buy some large air purifying plants for my flat so even on the days when the weather is bad I can still have my daily commune with nature! 

 

I tried doing some therapy soon after I’d reinstated but it was just too soon. I have just started some more spiritual & therapeutic work through the AA 12 step program. When I started this process of tapering/ withdrawal/ reinstatement etc, lots of the mental & emotional issues that I dealt with when I got clean in 2007 became very problematic for me again. I’ve only just started to feel ready to have another much needed look at them all anew.

 

Two of the things I’ve found to be the most beneficial have been drinking plenty of water & getting enough sleep. I took these things, or lack of them, for granted so I never really realised the benefit of them till the last few months. They are two of the bodies natural medicines. A diet of (mostly) whole foods and a move away from things that are very heavily processed or have lots of artificial additives etc has been good for me too.

 

I also believe that trying to live a lifestyle that embraces serenity & calm is a huge step towards the road back to some semblance of normality. I know that in terms of the waves of PAWS, the emotional symptoms trigger the physical withdrawals & vice versa. I’m a recovering addict who works in the music industry so always trying to embrace calm can sometimes be challenging, but I’m trying! I definitely think that the more stressed I am, the more difficult it’s going to be for my CNS to heal. I could be wrong about this but it’s my feeling anyway. 

 

As always, I’m not advocating any of what I’m doing, or suggesting that anybody else do it ,or not do it. It’s just a document of my journey so far & what’s working for me. 

 

It was lovely to get your message Hanna! I’ve been meaning to post for a while so this was the necessary nudge I needed.

 

Keep the faith people, it’s always darkest right before the dawn.

 

x

[Hanna72]

What an fantastic update @MindDrift

Thank you for sharing, and I am so pleased to here of how your hard work has gotten you to the place you are at today.

 

Keep on shining, you’ve already shown you got this!

[MindDrift]

@Hanna72

 

Thanks Hanna!

 

How's it going with you? 

 

x

[Hanna72]

Thanks for asking @MindDrift

I am doing good these days. Had a period of poor sleep for a while, which has gotten better thankfully. Keeping my tapering slow and steady now. 

[MindDrift]

@Altostrata

 

Hey Alto! I seem to be back in another wave of PAWS the last few days. Not as bad as some I’ve had, but pretty uncomfortable all the same. Feeling very disconnected from everything & just really irritable with flu like symptoms including headaches & aching legs. One of there things that is a constant for me, even when I’m not feeling any PAWS as such, is really bad fatigue all the time. I mean, I go out for a 20 minute walk & I’m absolutely exhausted. Any more physical exertion than that & I’ll be totally wiped out & have to go & lay down for a while.

 

Is there any solution to this? Anything I can do or try to improve it? 

 

I tried searching for any threads that focused on this but couldn’t find anything.

 

Thanks! x

[Altostrata]

Sorry to hear this, @MindDrift That must be frustrating. But on the positive side, the wave was milder.

 

Fatigue, unfortunately, is a very common post-discontinuation condition, and you were affected by drugs for many years. Hang in there.

 

Could it be you had a touch of a bug? I just had the strangest "cold".

[MindDrift]

 

Thanks @Altostrata

 

Yeah, I know that it’s a non linear journey & there’s going to be more trying times ahead. Thankfully, the balance is steadily shifting to more windows & less waves which I’m very grateful for.

 

I don’t seem to get too much in terms of colds/ flue/ bugs etc but maybe there was something underlying that contributed. It just felt like a standard wave of PAWS coming on. 

 

I was looking for threads that discuss the fatigue but couldn’t find any. I don’t remember going through this when I came through my Olanzapine discontinuation. I’ve only really felt the extreme levels of it the last few months.

 

If there’s no existing site discussions about this maybe I could start one? Might be helpful to share & hear some tips on how we all manage it.

 

Thanks! x

[Altostrata]

Please do revive this one 

 

[MindDrift]

Hi everyone. I had to reinstate Citalopram about 18 months ago. Started off at 0.5mg, slowly went up to 2.5 mg over a couple of months & been here since. Still getting some very challenging waves of PAWS but it’s getting easier. I am however getting really bad physical fatigue. I’ve only really noticed how bad it’s been the last six months or so. 

 

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to deal with this, or got any strategies for what has worked for them? When I feel the waves of tiredness I’m inclined to just try to do less, rest up, have a sleep etc. I don’t drink alcohol or smoke cigarettes & lead a pretty healthy lifestyle including an Ayurvedic diet of fish, chicken, fruit veg & lots of water. I’m just not that physically fit. Might improving this by doing gym sessions or other forms of exercise help my body to combat the fatigue, or might all the extra exertion just make it worse? I just don’t know.  Anybody got any guidance or suggestions they’d care to share? Thank you all in advance. x

[MindDrift]

Have you got any experience of this @Altostrata?

 

x

[Altostrata]

Hello, @MindDrift. Apologies for missing your post earlier.

 

Is it possible that your fatigue is caused by citalopram? We have several people here who have reported this adverse effect. It could be the reinstatement has done its work to stabilize you and now you're feeling the drug effect.

 

What times o'clock do you take your drugs, with dosages? Is the fatigue worse at any particular times of day?

[MindDrift]

Hi @Altostrata. No probs.

 

I’ve had over three years of tapering/ withdrawals & everything that goes with it. First with Olanzapine & then the same combined with reinstatement back onto Citalopram, so anything’s possible. 

 

I take 2.5mg daily and have been on this dose for for about 18 months or so. I take the stated dose at about 8am every morning. 

 

I was on 20mg Citalopram for over a decade & never felt like this when I was on it so I would suspect that for me at least, it’s not a side effect of the drug alone. Could be a side effect being magnified by the waves of PAWS I’m still experiencing though.

 

I don’t really feel the fatigue in the mornings, probably because I’ve got morning energy after resting at night. I noticeably feel it after lunch & in the evenings but I guess that’s normal anyway. The kind of fatigue I’m referring to is how I just get exhausted from doing anything physical. I’m not talking about going to the gym or excessive exercising. For instance, taking public transport to go somewhere that might take half hour, then the same journey back, even if there’s very little walking involved will pretty much wipe me out & cause me to need to lie down to recuperate. Up until about 6 months ago I used to walk for 30 mins every morning but I can’t do this now as it just zaps all my energy. 

 

As above I’ve only really noticed this the last few months. I’m in the UK so maybe it’s partly due to the cold. Maybe it’s just a part of the whole journey. Who knows?

 

I’d be interested to hear what you’re experiences of this are? I’d also like to hear the experiences of others, particularly those with history of tapering/ withdrawal from Citalopram? 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

x

[Altostrata]

10 hours ago, MindDrift said:

I don’t really feel the fatigue in the mornings, probably because I’ve got morning energy after resting at night. I noticeably feel it after lunch & in the evenings but I guess that’s normal anyway.

 

What time o'clock do you take citalopram?

[MindDrift]

@Altostrata

 

About 8am. 

[Altostrata]

Hello, @MindDrift I moved your recent posts here as we were getting away from the general topic and into your particular situation.

 

If you feel better before you take citalopram and more fatigued after, the fatigue might be caused by the citalopram. Do you feel better in the evening?

[MindDrift]

@Altostrata

 

It's not really a case of feeling better or worse either before or after taking it. It's that I just have so much less energy & have to use it sparingly. I can probably only do about half of what I used to do & even then I have to have a 30 min nap in the afternoon. I also don't remember the fatigue being this bad at any other time since I started on my journey of coming off the meds. 

 

Would there be any evidence to support it being more beneficial to take the meds at night? Or any other time of day?

 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

You might try moving the citalopram later by an hour each day until you are taking it around 8 p.m. If you find that you then have more energy during the day, you'll know it's the citalopram.

 

@sleepylex found escitalopram, citalopram's chemical sibling, fatiguing.

 

It could be that citalopram is telling you that you might start tapering off.

[MindDrift]

@Altostrata

 

Really? So you think that maybe I could start tapering back down again? I'd start with a 10% reduction?

[MindDrift]

Hi @Altostrata

 

So, started my taper down from 2.5mg Citalopram yesterday by cutting to 2.4mg.  I reinstated at 0.5mg in June 2021 & went up slowly to 2.5 where I’ve been for over two years now using Citalopram dissolved in water.

 

I feel absolutely terrible today. The usual bodily discomfort of just feeling very physically unwell. Plus, Tinitus, very mild hallucinations, feelings of separation and real emotional fragility. 

 

I really didn’t expect it to be this severe after such a small cut, and I’m not going to lie, it’s very disheartening, particularly as I know there’s going to be much more of this discomfort & maybe worse as I get lower on the taper.

 

I know it’s probably hard to quantify but what sort of time frame might I be looking at to stabilise after each cut & get back to where I was?

 

Thanks! x

[Altostrata]

Let's hope these symptoms last only a few days, they could be your basic normal withdrawal pattern. Clearly, you're very sensitive!

[MindDrift]

@Altostrata

 

Thanks Alto!

 

I feel the same today. Is there anything I can do help with the way I'm feeling?

 

The cut I made was less than 5%. I know the guidance suggests 10% so not sure what I should do for the next cut? Also, do I wait a month or make the next cut when I'm feeling better?

 

What's "basic normal withdrawal pattern please?"

 

Thanks! x

[hayduke]

Hi @MindDrift

 

I would suggest holding until you've felt ok for a week or so.  Next cut not inside a fortnight of your current 5% cut.

 

Have you looked at the Brassmonkey slide taper?  I found this easiest on the system.  Basically a set of four 2.5% cuts, one each week, then a two week hold before resuming.  Obviously, holding longer at any time that makes sense, as always.