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DataGuy: post withdrawal odyssey


DataGuy

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  • Moderator

Hello fellow travelers,

 

I am a recovering user of many psychotropic prescriptions (which I at first thought were good for me). After finally being able to taper off and learning much more, I've revised my thinking a bit: about the drugs, about the doctors, about the medical profession in general and about what I can reasonably be certain is healthy. I've got pretty decent working knowledge of psychotropics now, but still have much to learn. I have read the Ashton Manual, a few scholarly articles by people like Guy Chouinard, and have some experience helping people with withdrawal and post-withdrawal. I also have a bit of an interest in general medicine. Drugs taken include: Remeron, Effexor, Clonazepam, Triazolam, Escitalopram, too much Olanzapine and a few other compounds with varying levels of harm. I am now around two years post-withdrawal of Clonazepam, having begun my odyssey taking amitryptaline for sleep, and am still recovering from extreme insomnia, gastro problems and general fatigue. I can't really say it was worth it, but you live and you learn. 

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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  • Administrator

Welcome, DataGuy.

 

Good to see you here.

 

What's your sleep pattern?

 

To help us out, follow these instructions Please put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature You may need to use a computer to do this.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • Moderator

Hi Alto,

 

Sleep has been bad ever since the jump 2 years ago but has very slowly improved. I am now averaging just under 5 hours per night although I still have bad periods when stress arises. Generally I fall asleep very easily but awaken very easily and frequently. I tend to sleep sitting up initially, as this helps my stomach. Still have plenty of gastritis from the withdrawal which will sometimes wake me up. I find getting plenty of exercise during the day helps. When I wake up I will usually get up and go to the washroom and if I am very uncomfortable might go for a walk. I find walking while doing breathing exercises to be helpful. Sometime I've found simply staying up and reading or entertaining myself in some way with no intention of going back to sleep paradoxically helps me to feel drowsy. Have read a couple CBT for insomnia books which were of some mild use. 

 

Usually fall asleep around 10pm and sleep until 2-3am, waking up 2-3 times. Sometimes I can get back to sleep for an hour. My best sleep in two years is around 6 hours in a 24 hour period. So yes, I am a bit tired :)

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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  • ChessieCat changed the title to DataGuy: Postwithdrawal Odyssey
  • 2 weeks later...
  • Moderator

Hello:
 

Congratulations on becoming a moderator! Your med experience will give us such knowledge.

 

 I was reading your response to Alto about your sleep.

 

 I am also really struggling with sleep. I sleep from 2-4 hours a night. Among using CBT, have you tried anything else? I’d really love some information if you could give me some pointers.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Take care,

 Frogie xx

 

P.S.  Love your avatar 😊🐸

Edited by Frogie

PREVIOUS medications and discontinuations: Have been on medications since 1996. 

 Valium, Gabapentin, Lamictal, Prilosec and Zantac from 2000 to 2015 with a fast taper by a psychiatrist.

 Liquid Lexapro Nov, 2016 to 31-March, 2019 Lexapro free!!! (total Lexapro taper was 4 years-started with pill form)

---CURRENT MEDICATIONS:Supplements:Milk Thistle, Metamucil, Magnesium Citrate, Vitamin D3, Levothyroxine 25mcg, Vitamin C, Krill oil.

Xanax 1mg 3x day June, 2000 to 19-September, 2020 Went from .150 grams (average weight of 1 Xanax) 3x day to .003 grams 3x day. April 1, 2021 went back on 1mg a day. Started tapering May 19, 2023. July 28, 2023-approximately .87mg. Dr. fast tapered me at the end and realized he messed up. Prescribe it again and I am doing "slower than a turtle" taper.

19-September, 2020 Xanax free!!! (total Xanax taper was 15-1/2 months-1-June, 2019-19-September, 2020)

I am not a medical professional.

The suggestions I make are based on personal experience.

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  • Administrator

Here are our sleep tips:

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

What is the sleep cycle?

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

 

 

Sleeping sitting up is not a bad solution. A wedge pillow in your bed might be enough to calm your gut.

 

You might get some more sleep using a sleep mask.

 

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • Moderator

Hi Frogie,

 

Thanks! Right back at you on the avatar :)

 

I look forward to learning from you too. I think this lasts so long that I have actually now forgotten some of what I learned in the initial stages haha. You are where I was about 2 years ago, except I didn't have the good fortune of finding SA and my taper was pretty chaotic.

 

Boy, good question about sleep. I am wondering if I even remember all of the things I've tried. Initially I tried a few supplements and drugs, but none of them worked out too well and I have basically sworn off everything but food and water. If you're curious, I tried: magnesium, kava kava, chamomile (made me feel nauseous), glycine, tryptophan, melatonin, atenolol (a beta-blocker), Nyquil and I am probably forgetting one or two others, but you get the idea. I don't think I'd really recommend any of them (from my experience anyway). Even the things that worked only worked briefly and then I would have some sort of adverse reaction to them. I think behavioral interventions are much less risky and would probably offer more lasting benefit. 

 

For behavioral interventions, I've tried: CBT-I, meditation, progressive muscle relaxation, walking (I still go for walks around 2am fairly regularly), simple deep breathing, distraction via listening to things like audiobooks or podcasts, reading, not thinking about trying to sleep and just doing other stuff (paradoxically, this seems to work sometimes), only going to bed when I'm drowsy (this usually happens around 9pm-11pm most nights), getting up if I am awake for more than 20 minutes (this is a very useful thing from CBT-I), avoiding screens prior to bed (I didn't really notice this working for me, so stopped it), and, finally: exercise! I have probably left out a few, but I would say exercise is my panacea. I almost always sleep better on days when I get a large amount of exercise. It didn't always work great early on in withdrawal (sometimes I'd workout pretty hard and then sleep like 1 hour ugh), but I think it really pays off later. Even if your sleep doesn't improve too much, at least you will be in much better shape :). Withdrawal seems much less scary and uncomfortable when you feel like you have a lot of physical stamina and strength. Are you able to exercise, Frogie? I know some people can't...I am lucky in that respect.

 

The interventions I found most helpful were: meditation (I should really do more of this), deep breathing, distraction, reading, not thinking about sleep....actually most of the behavioral interventions I found useful. The only one I haven't found terribly useful was the avoiding screens. I've fallen asleep many times in front of my computer watching youtube or listening to podcasts. I know the walking might sound odd in the middle of the night. It does tend to wake you up a bit initially but for me, I find I get an excess of energy that I need to burn off before I can sleep again sometimes. Some nights I will wake up after sleeping 4 hours and I find I really need to flex my legs (like actually contract the muscle isometrically). I think if I am immobile for too long my body builds up and excess of excitatory neurotransmitters or something...that is my hypothesis anyway. 

 

What types of things have you tried for insomnia, Frogie? I was where you were with sleep when I jumped off. Things were pretty bad in acute: sleeping 2-3 hours per night. But they have really improved immensely, even though most people would probably be horrified at sleeping 4-5 hours a night. Things will improve, although it may happen quite slowly. I have even slept 6 hours a couple times in the last few months :)

 

 

Edited by DataGuy

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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  • Moderator
2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Here are our sleep tips:

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

What is the sleep cycle?

 

Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

TV or computer use in evening can disrupt sleep: Bright light signals the brain that it's daytime

 

 

Sleeping sitting up is not a bad solution. A wedge pillow in your bed might be enough to calm your gut.

 

You might get some more sleep using a sleep mask.

 

@Altostrata

 

Thank you for the information 

PREVIOUS medications and discontinuations: Have been on medications since 1996. 

 Valium, Gabapentin, Lamictal, Prilosec and Zantac from 2000 to 2015 with a fast taper by a psychiatrist.

 Liquid Lexapro Nov, 2016 to 31-March, 2019 Lexapro free!!! (total Lexapro taper was 4 years-started with pill form)

---CURRENT MEDICATIONS:Supplements:Milk Thistle, Metamucil, Magnesium Citrate, Vitamin D3, Levothyroxine 25mcg, Vitamin C, Krill oil.

Xanax 1mg 3x day June, 2000 to 19-September, 2020 Went from .150 grams (average weight of 1 Xanax) 3x day to .003 grams 3x day. April 1, 2021 went back on 1mg a day. Started tapering May 19, 2023. July 28, 2023-approximately .87mg. Dr. fast tapered me at the end and realized he messed up. Prescribe it again and I am doing "slower than a turtle" taper.

19-September, 2020 Xanax free!!! (total Xanax taper was 15-1/2 months-1-June, 2019-19-September, 2020)

I am not a medical professional.

The suggestions I make are based on personal experience.

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  • Moderator

Yes, thanks Alto.

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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  • Moderator
11 hours ago, DataGuy said:

Hi Frogie,

 

Thanks! Right back at you on the avatar :)

 

I look forward to learning from you too. I think this lasts so long that I have actually now forgotten some of what I learned in the initial stages haha. You are where I was about 2 years ago, except I didn't have the good fortune of finding SA and my taper was pretty chaotic.

 

Boy, good question about sleep. I am wondering if I even remember all of the things I've tried. Initially I tried a few supplements and drugs, but none of them worked out too well and I have basically sworn off everything but food and water. If you're curious, I tried: magnesium, kava kava, chamomile (made me feel nauseous), glycine, tryptophan, melatonin, atenolol (a beta-blocker), Nyquil and I am probably forgetting one or two others, but you get the idea. I don't think I'd really recommend any of them (from my experience anyway). Even the things that worked only worked briefly and then I would have some sort of adverse reaction to them. I think behavioral interventions are much less risky and would probably offer more lasting benefit. 

 

For behavioral interventions, I've tried: CBT-I, meditation, progressive muscle relaxation, walking (I still go for walks around 2am fairly regularly), simple deep breathing, distraction via listening to things like audiobooks or podcasts, reading, not thinking about trying to sleep and just doing other stuff (paradoxically, this seems to work sometimes), only going to bed when I'm drowsy (this usually happens around 9pm-11pm most nights), getting up if I am awake for more than 20 minutes (this is a very useful thing from CBT-I), avoiding screens prior to bed (I didn't really notice this working for me, so stopped it), and, finally: exercise! I have probably left out a few, but I would say exercise is my panacea. I almost always sleep better on days when I get a large amount of exercise. It didn't always work great early on in withdrawal (sometimes I'd workout pretty hard and then sleep like 1 hour ugh), but I think it really pays off later. Even if your sleep doesn't improve too much, at least you will be in much better shape :). Withdrawal seems much less scary and uncomfortable when you feel like you have a lot of physical stamina and strength. Are you able to exercise, Frogie? I know some people can't...I am lucky in that respect.

 

The interventions I found most helpful were: meditation (I should really do more of this), deep breathing, distraction, reading, not thinking about sleep....actually most of the behavioral interventions I found useful. The only one I haven't found terribly useful was the avoiding screens. I've fallen asleep many times in front of my computer watching youtube or listening to podcasts. I know the walking might sound odd in the middle of the night. It does tend to wake you up a bit initially but for me, I find I get an excess of energy that I need to burn off before I can sleep again sometimes. Some nights I will wake up after sleeping 4 hours and I find I really need to flex my legs (like actually contract the muscle isometrically). I think if I am immobile for too long my body builds up and excess of excitatory neurotransmitters or something...that is my hypothesis anyway. 

 

What types of things have you tried for insomnia, Frogie? I was where you were with sleep when I jumped off. Things were pretty bad in acute: sleeping 2-3 hours per night. But they have really improved immensely, even though most people would probably be horrified at sleeping 4-5 hours a night. Things will improve, although it may happen quite slowly. I have even slept 6 hours a couple times in the last few months :)

 

 

I’m going to answer you on my Frogie’s Off-Topc Topic so I don’t clog your thread!😊

PREVIOUS medications and discontinuations: Have been on medications since 1996. 

 Valium, Gabapentin, Lamictal, Prilosec and Zantac from 2000 to 2015 with a fast taper by a psychiatrist.

 Liquid Lexapro Nov, 2016 to 31-March, 2019 Lexapro free!!! (total Lexapro taper was 4 years-started with pill form)

---CURRENT MEDICATIONS:Supplements:Milk Thistle, Metamucil, Magnesium Citrate, Vitamin D3, Levothyroxine 25mcg, Vitamin C, Krill oil.

Xanax 1mg 3x day June, 2000 to 19-September, 2020 Went from .150 grams (average weight of 1 Xanax) 3x day to .003 grams 3x day. April 1, 2021 went back on 1mg a day. Started tapering May 19, 2023. July 28, 2023-approximately .87mg. Dr. fast tapered me at the end and realized he messed up. Prescribe it again and I am doing "slower than a turtle" taper.

19-September, 2020 Xanax free!!! (total Xanax taper was 15-1/2 months-1-June, 2019-19-September, 2020)

I am not a medical professional.

The suggestions I make are based on personal experience.

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  • Administrator

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Hi, i don't want to clog your threat either but you've been helping me a ton. My withdrawals been a horror story of mistakes but i think two years isn't long for sleep to improve and considering your sleeping 6 hours sometimes now as opposed to two i think you'll be sleeping soundly in no time. I hope you keep improving man.

Fluanxol dosage n/a - 6 months cold turkey Start/ may 2015 end/august 2015

Sertraline 100mg - 10 months cold turkey start/ may 2015 End/Feb 2016

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  • Moderator
On 7/1/2020 at 4:37 PM, trenace said:

Hi, i don't want to clog your threat either but you've been helping me a ton. My withdrawals been a horror story of mistakes but i think two years isn't long for sleep to improve and considering your sleeping 6 hours sometimes now as opposed to two i think you'll be sleeping soundly in no time. I hope you keep improving man.

 

Thanks Trenace. I find I am still vulnerable to stress and overwork, but I can maintain my sleep by engaging in conscientious self-care, which for me is mainly exercise (and sometimes deep breathing or guided meditation). I usually walk at least a couple hours per day and will run or workout at the gym 3 or 4 times a week. I have gained about 40lbs of since my lowest weight in withdrawal.

 

I will still have bad periods with the insomnia, but they are becoming less frequent. I also had pretty bad stomach problems and had lost a lot of weight (actually my digestive system didn't seem to work at all in acute withdrawal), but those are slowly improving. One of my worst symptoms is gastritis, which seems to be exacerbated by carbohydrates. Not really sure why, but I have a couple hypotheses that I don't think I'll ever be able to test. 

 

Other symptoms include some intermittent sensitivity to light and sound, a strange chemical anxiety that comes and goes, some difficulty concentrating or sitting still, difficulty with goal-related tasks (I have a 'to do list' that just keeps growing), sensitivity to stress, some intermittent cog fog, and a persistent allergy to doctors and hospitals :)

 

I also had a sensitivity to drugs and supplements and had quite a few bad reactions, but haven't taken any for a couple years. My goal is to never take another one in my life, since I'm taking this as a sign I reached my quota. 

Edited by DataGuy

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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1 hour ago, DataGuy said:

 

Thanks Trenace. I find I am still vulnerable to stress and overwork, but I can maintain my sleep by engaging in conscientious self-care, which for me is mainly exercise (and sometimes deep breathing or guided meditation). I usually walk at least a couple hours per day and will run or workout at the gym 3 or 4 times a week. I have gained about 40lbs of since my lowest weight in withdrawal.

 

I will still have bad periods with the insomnia, but they are becoming less frequent. I also had pretty bad stomach problems and had lost a lot of weight (actually my digestive system didn't seem to work at all in acute withdrawal), but those are slowly improving. One of my worst symptoms is gastritis, which seems to be exacerbated by carbohydrates. Not really sure why, but I have a couple hypotheses that I don't think I'll ever be able to test. 

 

Other symptoms include some intermittent sensitivity to light and sound, a strange chemical anxiety that comes and goes, some difficulty concentrating or sitting still, difficulty with goal-related tasks (I have a 'to do list' that just keeps growing), sensitivity to stress, some intermittent cog fog, and a persistent allergy to doctors and hospitals :)

 

I also had a sensitivity to drugs and supplements and had quite a few bad reactions, but haven't taken any for a couple years. My goal is to never take another one in my life, since I'm taking this as a sign I reached my quota. 

It really sounds like you're on the mend despite a few remaining symptoms. I'm sure you'll get there soon and u seem to know exactly what you're doing too. Its definitley a good idea with the supplements too i really don't think your body needs them unless you have a deficiency or something. Hope you have a good day man 😊

Fluanxol dosage n/a - 6 months cold turkey Start/ may 2015 end/august 2015

Sertraline 100mg - 10 months cold turkey start/ may 2015 End/Feb 2016

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • Moderator

Thanks @trenace. I have been having a rough month, deteriorating for not much reason that I can see, but I still have quite a few solutions I can try. Thus far I have tried cutting carbohydrates, but although they are still a problem for me, they don't seem to be the primary culprit this time. Next I am going to try reinstituting intermittent fasting, which I'd been getting away from. My sleep has been really disrupted and poor, getting 3.5-4.5 hours a night with the occasional 5 hours sprinkled in. Even the 5 hours has seemed of poor quality. I keep waking up with gastritis and a very acidic stomach, which has been a massive blight on my life, preventing me from getting back to sleep and making me cautious and hesitant about eating (sometimes I will even vomit after waking). I have been pretty miserable and unproductive the last month, having difficulty concentrating on much of anything or mustering up any motivation.

 

 I am going to try eating my last meal earlier in the day (aiming for 3pm, but I will be a bit flexible). I'm hoping this allows my stomach time to settle and keeps me from having my sleep disrupted. I have always found intermittent fasting helps, but keep drifting away from it because it is difficult to maintain. It seems very hard for me to eat just the right amount of food by some cutoff time in the afternoon. I always seem to eat too much or too little. Too little and I need to eat again or I will have trouble sleeping, as my nervous system gets overactivated and I am just uneasy. I have bad memories of acute withdrawal, starving in my apartment while surrounded by food because my digestive system just did not work. I suspect it will take my body quite awhile to forget that episode. If I eat too much, this obviously messes things up too, for more prosaic reasons. I may have to start counting calories, which I have not really bothered with for a long time. 

 

Dealing with people at work has been difficult, as often I feel like I can't even pretend to have patience or good humor. I mostly just avoid them when I can. Sometimes I think I fall asleep for a few minutes during the day. I will be listening to a podcast or something and then suddenly it is over and I can't remember the end of it. It is hard to know whether I actually fell asleep or just spaced out, but I do seem to have lost that time. Usually it's only for 5-10 minutes. I'm still exercising plenty (2 hours walking minimum) and attempting to do some sort of meditation or breathing. I have started to watch baseball again, because I find it relaxing. I had cancelled my TV during the pandemic to save money, because the only thing I ever watched was sports and that had ceased to exist. Now that it is starting again I realized I was missing it. A top prospect for my team will make his debut tomorrow. He is a behemoth at 6'5, 260lbs and throws 100 mph. Should be fun to watch but I wouldn't want to be an opposing hitter. Throughout this entire thing, during withdrawal and before that, when I was stuck on clonazepam despite not wanting to take it and being made sick unknowningly, baseball has been one of the only things that has always maintained my interest. When I had to have a gastroscopy a few years ago for my seemingly endless stomach problems (I now know clonazepam was the culprit, despite my doctor explicitly claiming it wasn't), I actually dispensed with anaesthetic for the sole reason that I wanted to watch the opening day of baseball and actually remember it. Surprisingly, he was able to stick a long camera down my throat and into my stomach without much difficulty.

 

When I am doing well I am fairly carefree and unbothered by anxiety, but when I start doing poorly I am reminded of how treacherous PAWS can be and how tenuous recovery is. One domino starts knocking down all the others and before I know it I am back in hell (sleeping 3-4 hours, no motivation, stomach a complete mess, miserable mood, unproductive, look like hell) and the path back to stability seems fraught with obstacles. Very easy to give advice from a position of comfort, very difficult when you are not doing well yourself. But I think the fact that my own withdrawal has been so intractable and cruel has been helpful in some way. I wouldn't call it a good experience, but as Calvin's father would say "it builds character". 

 

Hobbes Deep - character building | Calvin and hobbes comics ...

 

 

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 7/28/2020 at 1:19 PM, DataGuy said:

Thanks @trenace. I have been having a rough month, deteriorating for not much reason that I can see, but I still have quite a few solutions I can try. Thus far I have tried cutting carbohydrates, but although they are still a problem for me, they don't seem to be the primary culprit this time. Next I am going to try reinstituting intermittent fasting, which I'd been getting away from. My sleep has been really disrupted and poor, getting 3.5-4.5 hours a night with the occasional 5 hours sprinkled in. Even the 5 hours has seemed of poor quality. I keep waking up with gastritis and a very acidic stomach, which has been a massive blight on my life, preventing me from getting back to sleep and making me cautious and hesitant about eating (sometimes I will even vomit after waking). I have been pretty miserable and unproductive the last month, having difficulty concentrating on much of anything or mustering up any motivation.

 

 I am going to try eating my last meal earlier in the day (aiming for 3pm, but I will be a bit flexible). I'm hoping this allows my stomach time to settle and keeps me from having my sleep disrupted. I have always found intermittent fasting helps, but keep drifting away from it because it is difficult to maintain. It seems very hard for me to eat just the right amount of food by some cutoff time in the afternoon. I always seem to eat too much or too little. Too little and I need to eat again or I will have trouble sleeping, as my nervous system gets overactivated and I am just uneasy. I have bad memories of acute withdrawal, starving in my apartment while surrounded by food because my digestive system just did not work. I suspect it will take my body quite awhile to forget that episode. If I eat too much, this obviously messes things up too, for more prosaic reasons. I may have to start counting calories, which I have not really bothered with for a long time. 

 

Dealing with people at work has been difficult, as often I feel like I can't even pretend to have patience or good humor. I mostly just avoid them when I can. Sometimes I think I fall asleep for a few minutes during the day. I will be listening to a podcast or something and then suddenly it is over and I can't remember the end of it. It is hard to know whether I actually fell asleep or just spaced out, but I do seem to have lost that time. Usually it's only for 5-10 minutes. I'm still exercising plenty (2 hours walking minimum) and attempting to do some sort of meditation or breathing. I have started to watch baseball again, because I find it relaxing. I had cancelled my TV during the pandemic to save money, because the only thing I ever watched was sports and that had ceased to exist. Now that it is starting again I realized I was missing it. A top prospect for my team will make his debut tomorrow. He is a behemoth at 6'5, 260lbs and throws 100 mph. Should be fun to watch but I wouldn't want to be an opposing hitter. Throughout this entire thing, during withdrawal and before that, when I was stuck on clonazepam despite not wanting to take it and being made sick unknowningly, baseball has been one of the only things that has always maintained my interest. When I had to have a gastroscopy a few years ago for my seemingly endless stomach problems (I now know clonazepam was the culprit, despite my doctor explicitly claiming it wasn't), I actually dispensed with anaesthetic for the sole reason that I wanted to watch the opening day of baseball and actually remember it. Surprisingly, he was able to stick a long camera down my throat and into my stomach without much difficulty.

 

When I am doing well I am fairly carefree and unbothered by anxiety, but when I start doing poorly I am reminded of how treacherous PAWS can be and how tenuous recovery is. One domino starts knocking down all the others and before I know it I am back in hell (sleeping 3-4 hours, no motivation, stomach a complete mess, miserable mood, unproductive, look like hell) and the path back to stability seems fraught with obstacles. Very easy to give advice from a position of comfort, very difficult when you are not doing well yourself. But I think the fact that my own withdrawal has been so intractable and cruel has been helpful in some way. I wouldn't call it a good experience, but as Calvin's father would say "it builds character". 

 

Hobbes Deep - character building | Calvin and hobbes comics ...

 

 

Hi

How's your digestive system and sleep now in september?

I found helpful of continuously having soft cooked rice mixed with plenty of curds,salt and pinch of turmeric powder.

This makes your digestive system sooth.You can add sweet grapes,pomegranate,any other fav fruits to that.

Along with that make a habit of drinking curds mix with plenty of water,cumin seeds,corriander powder,curry leave powder,and turmeric.

This and some days at bed time taking warm turmeric milk and honey  induces sleep naturally.

Regularity is the key to recover from all the problamatic symptoms.

Hope you will let us know,how you are doing,in time to time.

Best wishes.

Cold turkeyed risperidone (1m.g)and trihexyphenidyl combination drug out of ignorance,In August 2016 after one month use.

Withdrawal symptoms settled at dreamful,disturbing sleep.

Thus introduced to olanzapine for sleep.Started using olanzapine out of ignorance.

Tapering olanzapine 10 m.g from February 2017.

May 2018 :Still suffering dreams,Still tapering olanzapine at 0.625.100ml water+2.5 mg olanzapine. June 2018 22.5ml=0.57mg.July 2018 20ml,August 2018-17.5ml,September 2018-15ml,October 2018 10 ml,December 2018 7 ml, BrassMonkey slide method so far at lower doses.2 nd December cold turkeyed , only to reach minure doses as reinstatement to cutshort endless tapering process.4rth December started 1ml.

Almost no symptoms and sleep is better,So started 0.5 ml from 17-12-2018.

"0"from31-12-18.Re birth happened from 10- 2020,as rejuvenation took whole2019.Completely recovered now.

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • Moderator

Hi @rupa,

 

Thanks so much for your response and suggestions. Sorry I missed your post initially. I was taking a bit of a break. 

 

I have just started trying soft-cooked rice. I'm trying to switch over to a more vegetarian style diet. I don't think my system is handling the ketogenic diet very well anymore. 

 

I will try to add tumeric, I used to eat rice with tumeric and cumin and really enjoyed it. 

 

I agree regularity is very important. I try to keep to a similar schedule as best I can. 

 

I hope you are doing well with recovery and symptoms. If you get time, let me know! Thanks : )

 

DG

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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DataGuyHi@DataGuy

I forgot to mention lot of greens which ever available at your place.Also onion and Garlic ,tossed or raw to add the curd rice.You can google the benifits of garlic and raw  onion benifits.

About myself

I am drinking one spoon wheat grass power in warm water early in the morning.

Then I take twenty minutes in morning sun.

Then I drink the tea made with parijaatha leaves,guava leaves,moringa leaves,curry leaves,basil leaves,pinch of green tea leaves,ginger ,and honey (make powder ,boil in water)adding a lemon.

I drink this until late afternoon ,if i feel hungry i will have a lion date( processed tidy dates)or dry nut like badam or kaju or any 

a dry fruit or some fresh sprouts.

Then i am taking 200 grms curds mixed with lot of water ,until evening.

Early in the evening,6 pm, I am taking plenty of mixed veg,little carbs(rice or mixed millet roti,oats,etc)little Non veg.

Then bed time curds mix with water again.

Do you know why I am doing this?

I have detected cancer.

I am in belief that this is all withdrawal drama.

In these ten days my cancer symptoms subsided.

After 3 months ,I would go to body check again for any cancer symptom.

Almost every cancer cured with these natural remedy in india.

So fingers crossed.

A proverb:

"Live" Where ever you can.

In this planet or in any form in any where ,even in emptyness.

So chilling.🙂

 

 

Cold turkeyed risperidone (1m.g)and trihexyphenidyl combination drug out of ignorance,In August 2016 after one month use.

Withdrawal symptoms settled at dreamful,disturbing sleep.

Thus introduced to olanzapine for sleep.Started using olanzapine out of ignorance.

Tapering olanzapine 10 m.g from February 2017.

May 2018 :Still suffering dreams,Still tapering olanzapine at 0.625.100ml water+2.5 mg olanzapine. June 2018 22.5ml=0.57mg.July 2018 20ml,August 2018-17.5ml,September 2018-15ml,October 2018 10 ml,December 2018 7 ml, BrassMonkey slide method so far at lower doses.2 nd December cold turkeyed , only to reach minure doses as reinstatement to cutshort endless tapering process.4rth December started 1ml.

Almost no symptoms and sleep is better,So started 0.5 ml from 17-12-2018.

"0"from31-12-18.Re birth happened from 10- 2020,as rejuvenation took whole2019.Completely recovered now.

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  • ChessieCat changed the title to DataGuy: post withdrawal odyssey
  • 2 months later...
  • Moderator

Thanks @rupa,

 

Really appreciate your suggestions. Sorry I missed your post. I must have skipped over the notification accidentally. 

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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  • Moderator

I have had the feeling the last many months that I have been deteriorating. I've really failed to record much in my journal, so I'm not sure whether it's true, but I have definitely been sleeping worse the last few weeks, have felt little motivation and been uneasy. I've also had pretty bad stomach problems, which I attribute to overeating / eating all the time. At some point I got away from fasting and have inadvertently adopted the opposite approach, which was to use food as a way to regulate symptoms, sleep, stomach problems, energy etc. I initially fell into this when I had my best two weeks of sleep in the last 3 years, sleeping over 5 hours per night almost every night, and sometimes 6, and generally feeling much better. During this time, I realized I'd simply been eating whenever I wanted to - often - and thought it may have helped. Fast forward a few month and I am still doing the same thing, more due to inertia than any sort of planning, and I can most definitely say this is not the road to success for me. Eating all the time whenever I feel like it has been a disaster. It seems to have made my stomach much worse, and after initially helping my sleep, has made that much worse as well. I've also had an uneasy feeling and been particularly unproductive and restless.

 

Although I have had some problems in my personal life (my grandfather has developed dementia over the course of the pandemic, my mother decided to go back on the antidepressant which caused her diabetes because she had tapered too quickly and felt she couldn't function without it, that her symptoms were simply her "disorder" and unrelated to withdrawal, not to mention the pandemic itself), I'm not sure these things are the cause of my current problems. I have felt more that I haven't been able to properly deal with them due to my worsening symptoms, which have really been overwhelming everything. Lack of sleep has probably been the worst one, and has gotten down to around 4 hours per night. Stomach problems have contributed to this. It seems like I've had gastritis nearly 24/7. I seem also to have developed a sensitivity to fat / protein meals where they make me very lethargic, although not sleepy. Then there is the inability to concentrate properly and get much of anything accomplished or make any progress on my long term "to do list". 

 

I'm hoping this is all related to the excessive food intake, but I also need to exert more willpower. I feel like I've fallen into a pattern of "learned helplessness" where I give up too easily in the face of discomfort and haven't been able to accept short term worsening of symptoms for long term gain. I hope by imposing some discipline on my eating and sleeping habits I can gain more functionality in other areas of my life. I am still very much in withdrawal and suffering from the effects of overly rapid discontinuation of Clonazepam, Domperidone and Olanazapine, as well as an antidepressant prior to that. Life in the last 3 years has mostly been marked by constant discomfort of varying severity and many efforts to alleviate or mitigate it, many of which have been a failure or made things worse. I think I've got to count using food to regulate my nervous system as one of those failures. I'm hoping my body responds better to a more regular eating schedule, where I eat a similar amount at a similar time of day and avoid snacking or eating simply to alleviate short term symptoms. 

 

For anyone interested, other things I've tried that I consider to have failed are: ketogenic diet, supplements (pretty much all failed or resulted in adverse reactions), any sort of drug (prescription or over-the-counter)...there is a long list of failures here, but they all conveniently fall under a couple categories. I haven't tried any supplements or drugs in well over 2.5 years. 

 

Things that have helped: meditation, deep breathing, exercise (lots of this), intermittent fasting, socializing, progressive muscle relaxation, journaling, providing help to others, reading, avoiding doctors, avoiding computers and the internet (as much as is possible in this age), playing team sports when I can, CBT for insomnia. 

Edited by DataGuy

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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  • Administrator

Sorry to hear this, Dataguy. Yes, I think you'll feel better when you fix your digestive issues. Overeating can definitely be a problem, especially rich holiday food. You may be reacting to particular foods, too. You may want to keep a food diary.

 

Regardless, wishing you the best for 2021.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi @DataGuyI've been wondering how you are.  You've been so helpful.  I hope you're not being too hard on yourself about eating patterns.  There's so much you're dealing with, and on top of w/d you've got family and pandemic.  Again, I'm grateful to all that you add here.  I believe I've had to deal with a number of challenges, but nothing compares to the anguishing difficulties of w/d.  Thinking of you.

Zoloft: 1995 - 2015

Prozac: 2015 - 2018 (tapered from 40mg x day on July 31 to 30mg on August 31 to 20mg on September 31 to 10mg October 31 to 0mg on  December 15, 2018

Gabapentin: 2016 to 2019  (tapered from 300mg x day to 150mg on August 31, 2019 to 75mg on September 15 to 50mg on September 31 to 25ishmg on October 15 to 0mg on December 1, 2019

Enalapril: 2010 - 2019

Lipitor: 2017 -2017

Metformin: 2000 - 2020

Liothyronine: 2007 - 2019

Levothyroxine: 2000 - 2022

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  • Moderator

Thanks so much @arborand @Altostrata. I will be sure to get back to you when I am able to think a bit better. I did successfully fast last night / this morning for around 20 hours. That is one of my better ones, especially with having to work in the morning. Sleep has still been pretty bad, but I'm hoping it improves with greater discipline around food. No doubt about it, my stomach needs a rest : )

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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@Dataguy, I'm so sorry to learn of your hard times - they coincided with a nice long window for me when I wasn't coming to this site at all. I find your situation surprising, as you come across as such an incredibly disciplined, hyper-aware person in all the help you've given me. I have loads of confidence that you'll be able to regulate the eating in no time flat. I cannot intelligently give suggestions about food issues as I have no experience there, but just from what I read it strikes me that maybe a gentler middle-ground is a good idea? As in, not too much fasting, not to much overeating, but a more straightforward 2-3 squares a day? But again, I expect you know far more about stomachs than I do and know what you are doing. I can only send you my encouragement and confidence that you are more than up to the challenge of this new bump.

 

As for sleep - I was reading something recently that made me think of you in a book called "Headtrip". The first few chapters are about sleep of different kinds. Again, it made me want to start trying to work out different kinds of insomnia experienced by people in w/d. Is it that you can't fall asleep? Or that you wake up way too early? Or that you have short patches of sleep throughout the night? Or that you sleep, but feel like you only have "low quality," half-awake sleep? When you sleep, do you ever remember dreaming? (Which is helpful in seeing what kind of sleep you are getting or missing). And when you "can't sleep" is it because physical symptoms are interfering (stomach, feeling nervous or depressed, etc), or do you just feel awake and alert and no longer sleepy? As you likely know, brain chemistry is constantly in flux throughout the night (and often very different from when we are awake). My suspicion is that something about w/d interferes with the normal smooth transition between states somehow. I think melatonin and valerian can be good if the problem is trouble getting to sleep, but I know you're very wary about supplements like that.

 

I wish I could write you lots of helpful advice as you have done for me, but really all I can do is reiterate that everything about your journey thus far demonstrates how well equipped you are to face this latest downturn. I hope you catch a few ZZZs and can remain more sanguine than I am if you don't!

15+ years Citalopram 10mg (sometimes 20?)

2019 Citalopram 5mg. No problem reduction.

2020 Citalopram 5mg to zero. (Feb)

2020 (Feb - mid Oct): Very rare use of 0.125 or .25mg Xanax for really bad symptoms

2020 (Feb - Nov): Occasional use of "Nytol" sleep aid (an antihistamine). 

2020 Failed reinstatement: Escitalopram by accident (not Citalopram).  

 -- using a scale, started July 27 0.5mg, doubled every week or so to reach 5mg by Aug 30. Too fast - terrible depression, quit.

2020 (Oct-current): Supplements:

 -- Morning: Magnesium 300mg, Omega 3(483 EPA, 360 DHA +Vit E) Night: Liquid Valerian/Passiflore/Escholtzia - French organic herbal sleep aid, 1.9mg LD Melatonin 

2020 Current - new Citalopram reinstatement. (Accidentally started with Escitalopram before realizing and switching to Citalopram Oct. 30)

 -- using pipette method: Oct 30, 0.25mg; Nov. 4th, 0.375; Dec. 1st 0.5mg, Dec. 21st 0.75mg Jan 19: Decide reinstatement fail: Jan 21 0.625mg, Jan 28: 0.5mg Feb 8 0mg

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Hi Dataguy,

 

I am so sorry to hear things have gotten worse for you lately, and to hear about the difficulties you are facing with your grandfather's dementia and your mother. This is so hard and please know I am thinking of you. You mentioned you had been trying fasting and started falling into the other end of the spectrum of using food to moderate symptoms -- the exact same thing has happened to me over the past month. I wasn't sure that fasting/carefully regulating my food was helping, but then I definitely noticed when I started just eating garbage whenever I wanted that that corresponded with feeling much worse. Do you use any sort of app or website to track calories? I have found chronometer to be helpful. I also found one way that helped to hold myself accountable when I just felt completely awful and not able to feel motivated to watch my diet was having a friend challenge me to a week with no sugar, and I challenged him to a day of fasting. 

 

I am also curious to hear about your experience on the keto diet. I tried a 2.5:1 keto diet for one week. I stopped it when I found my mood decreasing rather dramatically, though I still wonder if I had maintained it if it would have ultimately been helpful. I know the day when I stopped it, I felt amazing, but then in the days following I went back to feeling generally like crap. Curious to hear about your experience when you are feeling up to it.

 

Sending support!

2005 - Zoloft, 200 mg for childhood anxiety (starting at age 11)

Summer 2015 - Switched to Prozac, 40 mg  

June 2019 - Tapered to 10 mg Prozac, no adverse effects. Held for 1 year. 

June 2020 - Discontinued Prozac. Horrible withdrawal. Did not realize it was withdrawal at first. 

Nov 2020 - Reinstated Prozac 2.5 mg. Still experiencing withdrawal symptoms. 

May 2021 - Prozac 2.0 mg. Still experiencing symptoms - some symptoms have improved, but situational factors have worsened.

August 12 2021 - Prozac 2.25 mg. Partial reinstatement as symptoms had worsened

June 17 2022 - Prozac 2.0 mg; Sept 13 2022 - Prozac 1.75 mg; Nov 1 2022 - Prozac 1.5 mg; Feb 1 2023 - Prozac 1.25 mg; Apr 1 2023 - Prozac 1.0 mg; June 15, 2023 - Prozac 0.75 mg; Aug 15, 2023 - Prozac 0.5 mg

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Moderator

Thanks for the comments and support everyone. I am not trying to ignore anyone on the site, just trying to focus on my own situation. I have been struggling to keep up with things in my offline life as my sleep has continued to be terrible (3-4 hours per night) and stomach has not thus far improved. I am still attempting to institute a fasting regime and mostly failing. I do feel better when I am able to fast though. I tend to have reactions to both carbs and non-carb foods now (fat and protein). Prior to the onset of these problems I mostly only had reactions to carbs (they amped up my nervous system the more I ate). But a few months ago I began having problems with fat and protein wherein if I ate too much in one sitting they would make me very weak and heavy to the point where it was a bit scary. I thought I might be developing a neurodegenerative condition. This has remitted a bit since then, but I am still having all of these problems to varying degrees. 

 

Today at work I was supposed to bring some papers to apartment buildings to distribute to employees that worked there (I work for a real estate company that leases apartments). I put the box of papers on top of my car and then went to grab something. I am so exhausted that I totally forgot about the box on the car and just got in and started driving with the box on my roof. Instead of falling off, the box for some reason stayed on top of my roof, but the papers started blowing out of it and spread all over the road I was driving on. When I got to my destination, I realized the box and papers were nowhere to be seen. Eventually I figured out what happened and spent about an hour picking up the papers from a stretch of road. My boss simply printed out another set of papers and mostly just thought it was funny. He is quite supportive and I have to admit it was comical, not just in how zombie-like I was, but in how absurdly unlucky it was that the box somehow stayed on my roof rather that just falling off and making things easy on me. I can't help but think I must have gotten on the wrong side of a vindictive voodoo practitioner at some point. 

 

@HardTimes I have tried almost every iteration of diet I can think of. Extremes of carb consumption, keto, even carnivore, along with a simple moderate diet. I do have difficulty eating 3 square meals per day. I guess it is a bit tough to explain exactly how difficult things get if I eat the wrong thing, combination of things, eat at the wrong time, don't eat enough or eat too much. If I eat too many carbs, I get will be too keyed up and have difficult sleeping / sitting still / concentrating. It also seems to play havoc with my stomach, as I seem to produce a ton of acid and gas as a result, which is very uncomfortable. This also makes it tough to sleep / concentrate. If I eat too much protein / fat I will get very heavy and have a hard time exercising. I also just feel sort of odd much of the time, like I will be heavy in an uncomfortable way or be restless in an uncomfortable way. Eating too much or too little also worsens insomnia it seems. Too little and I'll have a hard time falling asleep. Too much and I will wake up and be sick after a couple hours of sleeping. I know this situation sounds ridiculous, and it is. It is very tough to manage. I suppose it simply follows from my acute phase of withdrawal, where I had such extreme stomach problems that I thought I would starve to death surrounded by food (I lost around 30lbs in 3 months because my digestive system seemed like it ceased to function). I never expected things would get this bad again, but they have, and I guess I just have to pull myself out of it. How they have gotten worse is a bit of a mystery, the 'diet as cause' at this point is only a hypothesis. I suppose the pandemic, family situation, or a number of other things could also be contributing. I only suspect diet because it seems to be a huge trigger of symptoms. I really hope it is the correct one because I am really missing my pre-wave equilibrium. I do promise to respond to everyone once I improve again and feel like I have some spare energy. Thanks @Toast for the chronometer app mention. I have just installed it and hope it can provide a bit of help in tracking things. 

Edited by DataGuy

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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Sorry dataguy, I’m also having issues with stomach acid, stomach and gastric issues.  It’s terrible.  I hope you feel better.

Med History - 2014 - 2020 - Zoloft, Effexor, Klonopin, Lexapro, Buspar (No longer on any of these)

Went to my doctor for an annual and mentioned I was stressed, gave me Zoloft, stopped it after 3 months because it didn't do anything, ended up in withdrawal and was told I had a mental illness.  I've been diagnosed Bipolar and Clinically Depressed.  

Current Med Taper 

Lamotrigine - 25mg (May 21') -> 24mg (May 23') -> 23mg (July 23') -> 22mg (Aug 23') -> 21mg (Oct 23') -> 20mg (Dec 23')

Supplement: Magnesium, Fish Oil

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Hey DG. So sorry the diet and insomnia continue to be giving you such problems. I also apologize for my last attempt at "advice" - you've clearly been through all this very carefully and thoughtfully and it was a bit silly of me to just suggest a "maybe-don't-think-so-hard" approach. From everything you've given me, I have considerable faith in your ability to research and understand what is happening to you! Still, just to be devil's advocate (though again emphasizing my total lack of expertise here), it does strike me that stomachs and diet issues are things you might be able to seek good advice about from the medical community, specialists, nutritionists and the like, who are a world away from the psych drug people. Your situation does indeed sound very difficult to manage, and I guess my worry is that the worry and stress caused by trying to manage it can only contribute to the problem (hence my rather cavalier "try to chill out" type advice). But I realize it is never as easy as that, and almost all of us are in the same situation of trying not to let the stressing about symptoms become a primary cause of the symptoms. The other thing is that there just is a certain amount of mystery involved in all this - downturns (and upturns) seem to happen without much obvious change in the routine, which can be extremely frustrating when it feels like you are doing everything right. On the plus side, things can improve and return to equilibrium mysteriously as well, which is a reason for hope. 

 

I guess the best advice I can give you is the advice you have repeatedly given me, at least as far as the insomnia goes. You're not going to die from lack of sleep. You might be a little woozy and make the odd mistake at work, but loads of people do those things without much reason too! Your body will insist on sleep when it really needs it. My latest techniques (only somewhat successful): White noise, dozing with an audiobook playing (1984!), and dozing with a TV show on. Somehow having something on means my mind is sort of sucked into it and doesn't race around so much, and can then weave in and out of very light dozing sleep, which is better than nothing. Just a thought. I really hope you start feeling better soon. 

15+ years Citalopram 10mg (sometimes 20?)

2019 Citalopram 5mg. No problem reduction.

2020 Citalopram 5mg to zero. (Feb)

2020 (Feb - mid Oct): Very rare use of 0.125 or .25mg Xanax for really bad symptoms

2020 (Feb - Nov): Occasional use of "Nytol" sleep aid (an antihistamine). 

2020 Failed reinstatement: Escitalopram by accident (not Citalopram).  

 -- using a scale, started July 27 0.5mg, doubled every week or so to reach 5mg by Aug 30. Too fast - terrible depression, quit.

2020 (Oct-current): Supplements:

 -- Morning: Magnesium 300mg, Omega 3(483 EPA, 360 DHA +Vit E) Night: Liquid Valerian/Passiflore/Escholtzia - French organic herbal sleep aid, 1.9mg LD Melatonin 

2020 Current - new Citalopram reinstatement. (Accidentally started with Escitalopram before realizing and switching to Citalopram Oct. 30)

 -- using pipette method: Oct 30, 0.25mg; Nov. 4th, 0.375; Dec. 1st 0.5mg, Dec. 21st 0.75mg Jan 19: Decide reinstatement fail: Jan 21 0.625mg, Jan 28: 0.5mg Feb 8 0mg

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  • Moderator

I do appreciate your advice and support @HardTimes and @Jennings. I agree, the medical community is a bit better with physical issues than with MH ones. I seem to have something like irritable bowel syndrome, which has been explained to me by a gastroenterologist as being something they can't really see on scans or exams, but something that produces feelings of discomfort. In the case of withdrawal, it makes sense that the nerves of the stomach have been sensitized and so react to food etc abnormally, which is why with benzos I think we get the absurd bloating, gastritis and constipation, which in turn affects our entire nervous system (the stomach is a large producer of neurotransmitters, more than the brain in many cases). I'm fairly certain that this is the source of my problems. 

 

I'm still having trouble eating the right amount of food at the right time. I think the chronometer app will help with that to a certain degree, but the amount of calories I need and the mix of food seems to vary by day. I feel like I am much more sensitive after I have built up a large sleep deficit as compared to when I am well rested, so unfortunately the insomnia and stomach problems seem to reinforce each other in a particularly annoying way. I think the only undeniable thing I can say for sure is that I feel much better after fasting for something like 14-16 hours. Whatever happens in my body when I eat, it ain't good. My digestive system is still dysfunctional as a result of the withdrawal injury, and the dysfunction really seems to extend to every system it affects (notably my nervous system). I am sorry it is taking me so long to stabilize. I would love to get back to helping people and doing a bit more than I was previously, but it really does seem like I have pretty limited control over this process and at this point I am still testing solutions based on my previous experience. Very frustrating but I am handling the lack of sleep ok. I haven't missed a day of work yet, but I have not exactly been keeping up with my other responsibilities. I try not to think of these too much though. Doesn't help to stress about falling behind. 

 

And agreed @HardTimes, lots of mystery involved. All we can do is go off of what we know, even if that is like the drunk looking for his keys under the streetlamp. 

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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Hey DG:

First off, just want to send you my strong reassurance that I at least am able to cope at the moment, and you have NO need to stress about "falling behind" at least as far as I'm concerned. I don't know how many others you are acting as a kind of "primary moderator" for, or if it even works like that, but I'm sure we ALL get your situation and sympathize! Don't worry or think about your "responsibilities" at SA for now, it is your turn to be patient rather than doctor.

 

I can kind of relate to IBS - it seems pretty damn common, and I've had a couple of friends with full-blown Chrohn's disease. Whatever I had was extremely uncomfortable and awkward, and can be (like so much else, it seems), difficult to diagnose and figure out exactly what triggers what. In the end the doctor gave me some intense antacid things for maybe 6 months (?) and the situation resolved, but obviously your case is likely different. Still, it might pay to check it isn't an ulcer or anything else fairly easily treatable! Would it be worth investigating allergies? Can't those spontaneously appear at different times in life? Again, I know you know more about all this than I do, and I don't mean to irritate with unhelpful ideas, but what a help it would be to just discover that you're suddenly simply lactose intolerant and that's the main problem! Just my two cents.

 

Your ability to fast is amazing, and can sort of act as a reset your system fairly quickly. Then, with your powers of Data Analysis you can just gently experiment... small amounts of easy to digest stuff, or fruits, or no-gluten, or any of the other things I'm sure you've already tried. Doesn't have to taste good or be very diverse, just so long as you find one or two things you can tolerate that give you a bit of sustenance!

 

Very surprising report from my end, which might be of some help: The last little while has really not been very good for me psychologically, particularly after a bad 3 hour night. Then, however, out of desperation I started taking meditation a bit more seriously (I've had trouble believing something like meditation can tackle the intensity of various physical symptoms, and not really tried it). BUT for the last two nights, when I woke up in the middle of the night with the heat flash and the sense of boiling blood, I just sat up and did a long meditation exercise. This lead to lying down again, and eventually sleep! I've had something like 7h for two days in a row, and I feel sleepy and calmer today! So again it is a bit too soon to draw conclusions, (the post hoc problem), but I'm feeling more optimistic and hope to ride that placebo effect, if it is playing a role! You sound like you're already pretty much at peace and in a good place with the insomnia, but maybe give some late-night meditation a reboot? Netflix has a surprisingly good little series that has tiny guided meditations at the end.

 

I so wish I could be more help to you, but if nothing else I can send you my solidarity and hopes for some better days really soon.

15+ years Citalopram 10mg (sometimes 20?)

2019 Citalopram 5mg. No problem reduction.

2020 Citalopram 5mg to zero. (Feb)

2020 (Feb - mid Oct): Very rare use of 0.125 or .25mg Xanax for really bad symptoms

2020 (Feb - Nov): Occasional use of "Nytol" sleep aid (an antihistamine). 

2020 Failed reinstatement: Escitalopram by accident (not Citalopram).  

 -- using a scale, started July 27 0.5mg, doubled every week or so to reach 5mg by Aug 30. Too fast - terrible depression, quit.

2020 (Oct-current): Supplements:

 -- Morning: Magnesium 300mg, Omega 3(483 EPA, 360 DHA +Vit E) Night: Liquid Valerian/Passiflore/Escholtzia - French organic herbal sleep aid, 1.9mg LD Melatonin 

2020 Current - new Citalopram reinstatement. (Accidentally started with Escitalopram before realizing and switching to Citalopram Oct. 30)

 -- using pipette method: Oct 30, 0.25mg; Nov. 4th, 0.375; Dec. 1st 0.5mg, Dec. 21st 0.75mg Jan 19: Decide reinstatement fail: Jan 21 0.625mg, Jan 28: 0.5mg Feb 8 0mg

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi @DataGuy--I'm glad to hear how you're doing.  It amazes me that you have been able to continue working.  I send you all my support--

Arbor

Zoloft: 1995 - 2015

Prozac: 2015 - 2018 (tapered from 40mg x day on July 31 to 30mg on August 31 to 20mg on September 31 to 10mg October 31 to 0mg on  December 15, 2018

Gabapentin: 2016 to 2019  (tapered from 300mg x day to 150mg on August 31, 2019 to 75mg on September 15 to 50mg on September 31 to 25ishmg on October 15 to 0mg on December 1, 2019

Enalapril: 2010 - 2019

Lipitor: 2017 -2017

Metformin: 2000 - 2020

Liothyronine: 2007 - 2019

Levothyroxine: 2000 - 2022

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  • 3 months later...
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Hi all, just an update,

 

First, @Toast, I just reread your post and it was very helpful to remind me to get back to fasting. If you have any questions about my diet experience I would be glad to answer them, I realize I never really explained things very well.

 

The last few weeks have been pretty difficult. I had a neighbor in my building decide to use the pandemic as an excuse to smoke pot on their balcony rather than going outside. It seemed to be blowing specifically into my apartment. I don't really react too well to any sort of psychotropic, regardless of how small the dose is. Since I didn't want to breathe it in, I would usually try to leave my apartment for a bit, which is incredibly annoying when you are exhausted after work and trying to relax. Anyway, I really have had no way of finding out who it was, but complained to the building manager, who also seems to have no good way of finding out who it is. The smoke has stopped the last few days (why, I have no idea), but I never actually found out who it was. I was at the point of just knocking on every door when it started happening to try to figure things out, which was not very appealing in my frazzled state. It seemed to result in worsening insomnia, mood and fatigue. By the end I was barely sleeping 2-3 hours most nights, with the odd 4 hour sleep thrown in for relief. It was awful. The most frustrating thing was I had no one to direct my anger at or any way to find out who it was without bothering my neighbors. I hope it doesn't start up again, but if it does I will have to do something about it right away. It was very difficult to concentrate, socialize or accomplish much of anything during this period, so I apologize for being even more delinquent on the site than usual.

 

I am looking forward to recovering and getting back on track. The last couple nights have been a bit better. Even though the first night I only slept around 4 hours (around 10:30pm-2:30am), I felt much better. It seems simply not having pot smoke flow into my apartment relieves some stress, separate from the effects of breathing it. (My cat also seemed to have problems during this period, losing weight while eating more food, so much so that I thought she had developed a thyroid tumor or something. She had blood tests just to be sure.) Last night I slept a little bit longer (maybe 4.5 hours), but am still quite tired. Hoping for another pot-free day. 

 

Prior to this I was doing not too badly, even having a few nights in a row where I was sleeping 5 hours or so. Still having reactions to food, but they are relatively manageable. I would love to get into a steady state of fasting for around 16 hours and eating during an 8 hour window, but have had a very difficult time getting into any stable rhythm. The best I've been able to manage lately is the odd 16 hour fast. I don't really think the pandemic has been helping things for me, as with the lockdown I haven't seen too many friends in person, and talking to people online is nowhere near the same. Grateful to be able to go into work though (and still be employed, somehow!) during the lockdown. 

 

Hope everyone is doing a bit better than I've been. I will try to write something when I have my next window to balance things out. 

 

 

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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Hi @DataGuy--I always appreciate hearing how you're doing.  I sure hope these issues clear up and you have some peace.  Not seeing friends in person is taking its toll on people.  It'll be so good for you to have real company especially during recovery.  I think caring support is one of the most healing tools we have with this, so I send you virtual smiles, good wishes, and hugs as you cope with all of this.  Also pats to your kitty.  I hope you'll update on her welfare (as well as yours!)  I'm inspired by your mentioning it, to step up the intermittent fasting.  When recovery comes--boy, what a party🌟  In the meantime (and it is mean, this "withdrawal odyssey") I'm sorry you're having to deal with the stomach issues, and the sleep, too on top of that.  All my best wishes to you, Dataguy.  You bring so much to this site.  And I am so very grateful.  At the same time though, I don't want us to tire you out.  Please take care of yourself!  Thinking of you--Arbor

Zoloft: 1995 - 2015

Prozac: 2015 - 2018 (tapered from 40mg x day on July 31 to 30mg on August 31 to 20mg on September 31 to 10mg October 31 to 0mg on  December 15, 2018

Gabapentin: 2016 to 2019  (tapered from 300mg x day to 150mg on August 31, 2019 to 75mg on September 15 to 50mg on September 31 to 25ishmg on October 15 to 0mg on December 1, 2019

Enalapril: 2010 - 2019

Lipitor: 2017 -2017

Metformin: 2000 - 2020

Liothyronine: 2007 - 2019

Levothyroxine: 2000 - 2022

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hello @DataGuy

 

It's good to hear from you ☀️

 

Oh gosh, your story remind me of a neighbor who decided to party every nights just during my Paxil crash.

It sometimes feel like if life is testing us to see how much we can endure !

Fortunately, we can endure a lot more than we think ☺

 

I'm glad however that this "pot story" is over now and hoping you'll find your sleep back 🙏

 

Sending hugs and support, and thank you for all the support and inspiration you spread here !

2006 : 20mg Paxil+Bromazepam. 2008 : cold turkey of both. 2010 : Reinstatement 20mg Paxil + Bromazepam.

2014-June2017 : Switch from Bromazepam to Prazepam, slow taper to 0mg.

2018 to August 2019 : Paxil 20mg taper (3% every 15 days). 22 Aug 2019 updose to 10mg (was at 8.4mg).

25th Sept 2019 To April 2020 : found SA, holding at 10mg Paxil. 

April 2020 : Paxil 10mg to Prozac 7mg bridge. Details topic/21457

 

Current Supplements : magnesium citrate + fish oil

Current medication :

* 7pm Diazepam  : 0.85mg (15 Aug 2022) / 0.95 mg (24 April 2022) / 1mg Diazepam (since 29 Aug 2020)

* 8am Prozac : 6.16mg (25 oct 2022, feel awful, slight updose) / 6.08 mg (9 oct 2022) / 6.24mg (11 July 22) / 6.44mg (22 May 22) / 6.64mg (4 Nov 21) / 6.72mg (8 oct 21) / 6.8 mg (15 Sept 21)6.88mg (14 Aug 21)/ 6.92mg (23 Jun 21)

 

I am not a professional, I don't give medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi @DataGuy

 

Thanks for the update and good to hear from you! I hope the pot smoke doesn't come back, and sorry to hear about your cat. I hope she is doing okay. 

 

I would be curious to hear more about your experience with fasting when you feel up to it. What was the keto diet like for you, how extreme of a keto diet did you try and for how long? And what is your experience with 16 hour fasting like? 

 

I currently try to do intermittent fasting where I only eat one meal a day, keeping my sugar intake below 30 g and my carb intake below 100 g, but I haven't been as strict lately. This regimen almost always makes me feel less angry and more calm and positive, but it also unfortunately can make me feel fatigued and can make it hard to concentrate, which is why sometimes I have been breaking it and being less strict. I think if I didn't work I would just stick to my diet because I wouldn't mind feeling spacey and fatigued, but having to have the energy to work and use my brain during the day complicates things. Do you have a similar experience at all? 

 

Sending love and support ❤️ 

2005 - Zoloft, 200 mg for childhood anxiety (starting at age 11)

Summer 2015 - Switched to Prozac, 40 mg  

June 2019 - Tapered to 10 mg Prozac, no adverse effects. Held for 1 year. 

June 2020 - Discontinued Prozac. Horrible withdrawal. Did not realize it was withdrawal at first. 

Nov 2020 - Reinstated Prozac 2.5 mg. Still experiencing withdrawal symptoms. 

May 2021 - Prozac 2.0 mg. Still experiencing symptoms - some symptoms have improved, but situational factors have worsened.

August 12 2021 - Prozac 2.25 mg. Partial reinstatement as symptoms had worsened

June 17 2022 - Prozac 2.0 mg; Sept 13 2022 - Prozac 1.75 mg; Nov 1 2022 - Prozac 1.5 mg; Feb 1 2023 - Prozac 1.25 mg; Apr 1 2023 - Prozac 1.0 mg; June 15, 2023 - Prozac 0.75 mg; Aug 15, 2023 - Prozac 0.5 mg

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Thanks @arbor, @Erell and @Toast for the kind words. I still haven't come out of my smoker / cat health problem induced funk. Good news is that my cat appears perfectly fine from the blood tests that were taken, and essentially goes back to normal when she is not exposed to the smoke. So it seems all her problems were simply caused from being exposed to smoke. I guess it's not surprising that would cause extreme stress in animals. They do not want to die in a forest fire, after all, and here there is no means of escape.

 

I am trying to get things in order now, but it's been difficult to keep up with all my responsibilities. I find I have a tendency to get easily distracted or thrown off task. I most definitely have difficulty following a coherent plan and also have impulse control and motivation issues, especially surrounding food and tedious tasks. I tend to just eat and hope everything works out, even though the evidence over the past couple years suggests I should really be counting calories and eating at very fixed times of day. I think I tell myself that sometimes it works out regardless of what I eat, and I just tend to hope that will happen even though I know it is a bad idea. I get very exasperated that I have to put so much work and thought into something as simple as daily meals, when I feel like I have so little energy to spare in the first place.

 

@Toast my experience with food has been very complicated by withdrawal. It seems like I've had a problem with carbohydrates from the very beginning, where they cause my nervous system to go into overdrive. Luckily that has really abated in the last year, but I found I've now developed more of a problem with fat and protein, where it tends to make me very heavy and lethargic. Earlier on in my withdrawal I used keto to mitigate symptoms and it seemed like a miracle at the time. I all of the sudden felt relaxed for the first time in months. It was a very big relief, but I'm not sure I would recommend it as a healthy diet. It is nice to have something to go to that reliably provides a reprieve from tension, though. It worked very well in the beginning, and I was mostly functional eating that way. I'm not sure how to explain what it does to me now, other than I suppose the general level of activity in my nervous system has come down far enough that I can't really operate without the stimulation that the carbs provide. It has been pretty alarming, to be honest. I seem to be able to limit the episodes of weakness if I fast intermittently for at least 14 hours and avoid eating too much fat and protein. When I get into bad habits of eating too frequently, I tend to get lethargic and weak. But it isn't just a motivation or emotional problem. It seems my muscles and joints actually do not work as well, and I tend to injure myself or irritate my joints if I try to keep up the same level of exercise I normally do (usually walking, running or working out with weights). My hip joints especially tend to become sore and I have at least a couple times actually injured my hip flexor from overuse, and I've started to believe more and more strongly that the general weakness is a strong contributing factor. It's very depressing, but I need to exert what control I can over it. Just been doing a poor job of that lately. 

 

What is causing the motor weakness? I have to believe it was the many years of sedation with various drugs like mirtazapine, clonazepam and unfortunately, olanzapine, which was my dope fiend doctor's best idea for trying to get me off the clonazepam. We know that clonazepam is neurotoxic, and I think we are fairly certain olanzapine is as well thanks primarily to this trial, which showed brain volume reduction even when used "appropriately" in patients with psychosis. I think I am more shocked that they actually ran a trial like this, than by the result. I suspect mirtazapine also has neurotoxic properties, as most sedatives seem to in animal models. I will just have to hope the rate of healing exceeds the rate of deterioration. It would probably help to have doctors who actually acknowledged the problem honestly and monitored it, but no luck on that front so far. 

 

Apologies for writing so much again. Thanks to anyone who managed to read the whole thing! Definitely appreciate the kind words. I hope I can get back on track and contribute a bit more to the site when I am more stable. 

 

---------------------------------------

 

Oh and @Toast, meant to say that I tend to feel most "clear" and content cognitively after 16+ hours of fasting, which, due to my food problems, is difficult to achieve. With extended fasting I tend to also get the muscle and joint weakness, so my limit has been around 20 hours of fasting. Have you tried fasting while eating a more carb-heavy diet? At this point in my withdrawal, fasting for more than 16 hours is only possible if I eat almost entirely carbs for my last meal (pasta, cereal, rice and corn etc.). This tends to give me enough extended energy to remain functional through the end of the fast, and also helps my digestive system stay functional. The whole thing is bizarre, I know, and I simply tend to avoid explaining it to people IRL so that I don't sound crazy. 

 

Will try to have a bit more discipline and see if I can take back control of my situation. TBH this entire pandemic has been junk 🤨. Will be glad when the restrictions are finally lifted for good. 

Edited by DataGuy

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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Hey @DataGuy. First thanks for helping me out on my thread.   Second I practice intermittent fasting too, for several years and it has been extremely beneficial for me.  I’ll give some tips that might help you, maybe this is nothing new to you so sorry if I’m just repeating what you already know

 

I do IF about 15hours a day, but I don’t stress about it too much, I know I start eating never before 1pm but I keep eating until I go to bed which is usually 10-11pm.  So my fast isn’t perfect but even if you just fast 12 hours, daily practice is most important.  The first 6-10 months of IF was very hard, it suddenly got a lot easier after that, I just stuck to not eating until 12pm, then 1pm but would go hog wild after that.  
 

hot beverages make your stomach feel full!  These really help me.  Hot tea, coffee, water w cocoa or water w lemon juice are what makes fasting possible for me.   When I have a hot drink filling my stomach I won’t feel hunger for the next 30-60 minutes, it also helps you stay well hydrated (at least non caffeinated drinks) - drink drink drink

 

i agree w you about carbs, I have to have carbs, what I like is for my last meal just before bedtime I’ll usually have a very carb heavy meal, for me it helps me sleep and to feel full longer into the next morning.   I used to eat sweet potatoes for my bedtime meal, but lately I’ve been eating sprouted brown rice (planet rice via Amazon).  This rice is high in gaba and helps sleep - although w your sensitivity to klonopin maybe you should avoid it I’m not sure.

 

it sounds like you have to be super careful w your diet, I wonder if plant based fats like avocados or proteins like beans would work for you.  Don’t know sorry if these are dumb suggestions.

 

sorry to hear how much you’ve suffered, it is heartbreaking to see what people are going through with these horrible drugs, and how much effort many are making just to feel normal.  I wish you the best and hope you are able to get some relief soon.

2009-2010 - Ritalin/adderall, citralopram, clonazepam, none of these taken more than 1 month, cold turkeyed all

2021:  5/11 put on 2mg risperidone, 1200mg lithium.  6/6 1.2mg risp, 900mg lith.  6/14 1mg risp, 600 mg lith.  6/23 0.9mg risp, 600mg lith.    7/1 0.8mg risp, 600mg lith.    7/8 0.7mg risp, 600mg lith.  7/14 0.6mg risp. 600mg lith.   7/22 0.5mg risp. 600mg lith.   7/25 0.4mg risp, 600mg lith.   7/31 0.3mg risp, 300mg lith.    8/8/21 0.2mg risp, 300mg lith.    8/15/21 0.1mg risp, 300mg lith.    8/22/21 0.06mg risp, 300mg lith.   8/30/21 0.02mg risp, 0mg lith.

Supplements - 1560mg fish oil, 5000 IU d3, 300mg chelated magnesium, niacin (as needed)

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