Hopela: 10mg Zyprexa / olanzapine too fast taper

[Hopela]

Hi, I have no psychiatic history.  I was forced on zyprexa after an external stress reaction waking me up with high blood pressure and pounding heart beat, pressure feelings in the brain, need to urinate often and a fear of what was happening to me with these severe physical reactions.  Having no idea I gussed maybe poison at first but with doctors finding nothing I thought perhaps sudden electrical allergy due to the new 5G test nets I read other people were worried about. I didn't know I was that stressed and that that could be the reaction. But that's what I think now. Being unable to sleep for 6 days and finally desperately trying to sleep outside of the city to avoid radiation I utltimately went to the psychiatric ward to get sleeping pills 

 

I got the diagnosis psychotic symptoms and they wouldnt let me out even though I felt okay again after first night off sleeping with medicine they gave.  Initially they tried to force me on 20 mg zyprexa but agreed to 10 mg after a negotiation. There was also benzo and a sleeping pill they put me on but I have succesfully gotten off those. They wanted me to stay on 10 mg zyprexa when I was let out after two weeks and they said I should continue the medication till next appointment and they gave me 4 different other medicines to use if I felt I needed (benzos etc).

 

I had gone from being a person having no medicine at home to one having the whole bread box filled. I never used any medicine but zyprexa though. On next appointment they said I should stay on zyprexa till next meeting again.  But after a month they finally agreed to give me a tapering plan and I wanted as quickly as possible since I dont want to be on medicine in general since I used to be a healthy guy without. Also I really didnt think I was that sick, just had a long term stress reaction. They said it nothing bad with this medicine, just protective.

 

I got the plan 2.5mg down every two weeks. During this time I read that the drug causes brain atrophy and was very scared of being on it and why the doctors had told me just the opposite. I followed the plan with biweekly check ups and finally I got to 0 mg,  but sleep disappeared after two days. After two weeks of 0 mg with no sleep instead, anxiety, tremblings sweating, pressur in head, burning inflamed feeling etc I became more scared of what was happening to me then I was of taking another pill. I called psychiatric emergency and they said I had to go back up to 5 mg. That not working I tried 7.5mg and then 5mg with a sleeping pill too. But I  still got no sleep. They said it was the underlying illness that was causing problems now. I said I slept 12 hours on 5 mg before going to 0 mg and they changed subject.  Also I didnt think I had an illness just a stress reaction initially. Having searched for info myself the tapeing I got seems more like a cold turkey.

 

Having been on 5mg for a while with sleeping pills that also didnt give sleep I weaned off the sleeping pills and also started weaning zyprexa, still scared of atrophy, but careful to go much more slowly having searched for my problems and read this  forum some.  Sleep wasn't returing so no point being on high doses I felt. Also my trust in their "health care" recommendations is not really 100% percent after this. 

 

Im not sure I've ever slept since december last year but Ive gotten less tired after getting up duing the days so by feel 0-4 (assumed) hours while also getting down to 0.12 mg zyprexa. Approximately 10 days ago I jumped to 0mg again (6 months past) and felt ok for four days, but the 5th day had diarrhea and spasms, burning sensations and only 1 hour sleep instead of lets say 3 that Im used to, 6th day also head ache increasing and 1 hour sleep.

 

I called sick from work thought maybe it was covid. Being very scared to lose my sleep even more permanently I went back up to 0.12mg for two days in case it was withdrawal and last night 0.25 mg due to spasms and restelessness in bed, I almost called emergency psychiatric care but got 1 hour sleep finally with the dosage doubling. And now we're at today. I hope I can stay on 0.25 mg tonight and stabilize.

 

What should I do? Im considering calling the pro's again but this forum has seemed to have better methods as far as I've read. What should one expect when dropping to 0mg even from a very low mg? Im thinking maybe I should never try 0 mg again and just stay at 0.25mg or so. I don't fear use of zyprexa so much at these low leves.   Or if health allows some time from now taper to 0.06 mg (smallest plausible part for me) and do it every, then every other day, then every third? is this a viable super extended low end taper? Should I jump up to a higher mg now? Thanks for any support than I've already gotten from reading some here.

 

Theses were my tapers just prior to going 0 the second time

(4 mar 2020)
0.63 mg 21 day
(25 mar 2020)
0.31 mg 16 day
0.41 mg 36 day (had to go up and stayed till I felt like maybe 0-4 hour sleep again)
0.31 mg    10 day
(26 may 2020)
0.25 mg    12 day
(7 june 2020)
0.12 mg 8 day

 

Thanks

Edited June 27, 2020 by Altostrata
added line breaks

[Hopela]

Just updating Im getting some sleep on 0.25mg now. Head ache diminishing. Tardive dyskinesia gone. Stomach growly but ok.

 

Many months after the initial prescribed cold turkey in december and trying some and rejecting many more "medicine" (toxins) sleep aids I finally got them to prescribe me melatonin, a body natural non harmful sleep hormone that I had previously suggested but not gotten. They were then to call me back for a check up after a couple of weeks. I went to the pharmacy to get the melatonin and sure enough it was prescribed to me but the pharmacist told me I couldn't get it because this special type of melatonin package that they had prescribed required some form of extra license. So I was out of luck. And they never called on the appointed check up time either. The could hardly have done a better job If they had been trying to kill med under the guise of "psychiatric care". I wanted some sleep aid but they diagnosed me erroneously,  locked me up and chemically lobotomized me instead.

 

I have found that pistachio nuts contains very high levels of melatonin. While you can buy melatonin without prescription in some countries in others you cannot. There it might be the easiest way to just get pistachios which Im doing. Many anticovid protocols also use melatonin so a good thing to have at home. Pistachios also contain vitamin B6 which in small amounts can help insomnia and nerve health, if initially deficient. Further relaxation from magnesium and potassium could be had from eating a banana and kiwis might help sleep (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21669584/). perhaps I'll try that too.

 

 

 

[Hopela]

Still brain zaps, sometimes with body jerks , brain fog, general slowness, tiredness

[Altostrata]

Hello, Hopela.

 

What drugs are you taking now, at what dosages and what times of day (o'clock)?

 

Are you still taking melatonin?

[Hopela]

Hello Altostrata,

 

Im taking only Zyprexa 0.25 mg and just prior to bed. That's the only drug. I go to be the same time usually but currently the hot weather has made that time about one hour later to be plausible for sleep (now it's 23:00).

 

About 1 hour before that I take magnesium 100 mg, a few pistachios (only melatonin I've gotten) and starting from today a kiwi.

 

During the day I also take a multivitamin + vitamin D 2000 IU + vitamin C 1g + 2 para nuts (selenium) and starting  since a few days omega 3 + vitamin B12 500 mcg.

 

My supplementation has been based off covid protection aswell.

 

 

[Hopela]

I was given half a dozen different brands of zyprexa by chance. During this time I noticed that they were different in shape and consistency. Off my experiences I want to mention the brand Sandoz (olanzapine). Even though it cost me more money to do so I eventually always bought this brand during tapering. The diameter of the pill was larger and it had a flatter surface plus a good consistency in that it didnt't crack or crumble when cut. The 5mg tablet has slit in the middle suggesting even distribution of the active substances and guiding a perfect split and is very flat which makes it easy to cut precisely. The 2.5 mg is not as good but good enough and contains less of the posion and has even distribution of content as far as I could understand and sense. I would have had 0 chance of being able to get anything close to 0.12 mg parts with any other brand I tested and a pill cutter. A round tablet is only feasibly divisible in two parts. But the cutter is more useful after that since the half circles can be split in different angles, not just in half again, which is obvious once you think of it yet something easily overlooked. Instead of 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 of a tablet it's possible to go for example 3/4, 2/3, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 etc. I didn't get super precise splits with a pill cutter but I could get almost arbitrary fractions and it would have been absolutely impossible to taper with the other brands of the pill I tested using a pill cutter only. I had been hoping to write a success story from my taper instead of this thread. Turns out I'm still in trouble. Yet might be some value in the above to someone.

 

[Altostrata]

When was the last time you reduced olanzapine?

 

6 hours ago, Hopela said:

Still brain zaps, sometimes with body jerks , brain fog, general slowness, tiredness

 

How often does this happen? Please do not reduce your drugs while you're having brain zaps.

 

What is your sleep pattern?

 

Nuts and fruits are not a good way to get melatonin, they contain very little. If you can get melatonin tablets, as little as 0.25mg might help you sleep. See Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

Supplement selenium only if your plasma selenium is low. High accumulations are toxic.

 

For reference Tips for tapering off olanzapine (Zyprexa)

 

To help us out, follow these instructions Please put your drug and withdrawal history in your signature You may need to use a computer to do this.

[Hopela]

It's only when Im resting or trying to sleep that I get brain zaps and only then that I get involuntary movements, sometimes both at the same time. It happened a few times last night. Converesely tiredness is mostly when I'm up..

 

You're right. Looks like an ounce of pistachio is only 0.02 mg melatonin. Something but maybe mostly a placebo effect. 2 para nuts for selenium should be okay long term as far as I've read. But I'll take days off them if I think I've no risk of covid.

[Hopela]

I don't know what my sleep pattern is. It most often feels like Im just laying on one side then the other, then the third then the forth the first and so on. Sometimes I'll  go to the bathroom. Sometimes drunk some water. But I'm pretty sure I got some sleep last night. So it takes some time to get to sleep if I do. Everyday I wait for the morning alarm to ring so I'm awake long before and usually don't remember having woken up. Just having turned. However sometimes I see images before my eyes and then I think hm thats an image that means it must me a dream that means Im sleeping although Im conscious or at least having some sort of relaxation of the brain for recovery. Also often times nightmare but they could also be "daymares" since I feel awake when I see and feel them. I just don't want to open my eyes to test if Im awake since I want sleep.

[Hopela]

No brain zaps or involuntary movements this night. Slight head burn still today. Definitely had some sleep due to waking from a stressful dream. Very good progress.

[Hopela]

I took a chance to stabilize on 0.12mg instead of 0.25mg once I felt symptoms subsiding. It's been 6 nights. Had 3 body jerks and 4 brain zaps during last night. Maybe 2 hours sleep. I might have gone too low. Some worries. Im using pill cutter and I estimate the spread in actually achieved doses is 0.07 to 0.18mg, or ±0.055mg, might be too big. If it was 2.5 ±0.055mg it might have been an ok spread but the relative difference between days might be too big at this low dose. At 0.25 mg Im probably getting 0.2 to 0.3mg. Should I try crushing and dissolving that in water and store half over night for better precision? Im guessing that'll get me a spread of 0.10-0.15mg instead. Maybe Ill see what happens by staing a week or so at 0.12mg. Then move up if symptoms don't diminish. Worried I'm seeing permanent damage at these low doses and I'll have to stay on forever fo manage and graudally getting worse and worse and worse since that's what these drugs do.

 

[Hopela]

I have gotten hold of a 3mg melatonin tablet can. Maybe I'll start with cutting it in 4 or 8 pieces?

Slept half an hour last night. Had upset stomach that woke me up from the dream of eating a zyprexa pill and gave me anxiety and heart rate this night due to having had a sallad buffe during the day which was a risk of covid. The salad was ok. But the upsettness from withdrawal I think. Could have gotten virus though. I'll blame the drug and lack of sleep for not thinking about voiding it. Slight head ache. A few vague or slow brain zaps. Maybe 0.12 mg was too low but sticking to it for a few days more.

Had some colloidal silver this morning to deal with possible virus. Will eat coconut oil and brazil nut too.

1 or maybe 2 hours sleep previous nights.  Hopefully getting back there then more.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hopela]

Good news: "Withdrawal emergent dyskinesia" is aka "reversible tardive dyskinesia"

 

Prevalence: "reduction or discontinuation of neuroleptics can produce new movement disorders or exacerbate pre-existing ones. The incidence is likely between 10 to 20%

 

What to expect: "The dyskinesia typically occurs within a few days after dosage reduction or discontinuation. This is then followed by rapid improvement over several weeks or rarely 2 to 3 months."

 

Treatment: "reintroduce the neuroleptic at a lower dose and taper more slowly. " Looks like I did right.

 

I'll use the expression WD, Withdrawal dyskinesia, as per this positive sentence.

"To date there is no definite proof that patients who have demonstrated withdrawal dyskinesia are at a higher risk of going on to develop tardive dyskinesia."

 

Source: http://cmdg.org/Movement_/drug/withdraw/withdraw.htm

[Hopela]

I'm quitting brazil nuts. The selenium content is extremely variable (many many orders of magnitude), The average content is high and good but you might get 0 or a toxic dose instead.  There's also the risk of aflatoxins.

[DataGuy]

"10 mg 25 days , 7.5mg 18 days, 5 mg 14 days, 2.5 mg 13 days,  10x0mg with 4 days 1mg centrally interdispersed totalling 14 days.

Due to very bad condition reinstatement: zyprexa 7.5mg zopiclone 8.5mg, 25mg Propiomazine.

Immediately down to 5mg. Then a gradual taper during 6 months down to nothing but zyprexa and 0.0 mg again.

6 days of 0 mg. Then reinstatement 0.12mg two days and then 0.25 mg.

Since 23 june 2020: 0.25mg zyprexa.

Since 29 june 2020: 0.12mg zyprexa. plan to hold a month."

 

Hi @Hopela,

 

Just to be clear, you tapered over a period of 2.5 months to 0mg of Zyprexa, then reinstated 7.5mg Zyprexa + the other drugs, then tapered the Zyprexa over 6 months from 5mg to 0mg? How was your sleep during this period? Did it get better upon reinstatement? How many hours would you say you were getting 1) before reinstatement  2) after reinstatement?  3) during the 6 month taper  4) once the 6 month taper was done?

 

I don't think you should be afraid of taking a small dose of zyprexa to stabilize your sleep and symptoms. You can then taper slowly, so as to keep your symptoms as stable and mild as possible, until you are off the medication. This should minimize the harm it may cause. Doing large cuts of 50% or overly rapid tapers that give severe insomnia and brain zaps is likely worse for your overall health. Typically we see that withdrawal syndromes can be of greater intensity and length with cold turkeys and rapid withdrawal, suggesting a greater shock and injury to the nervous system (which we can infer from the greater dysfunction). I would suggest a small updose of the zyprexa as an option. What was the last dose you felt you were stable at? By stable I mean: your sleep was better and you didn't have brain zaps or dyskinesias (or they were much milder). 

 

Here is a guide on reinstatement or updosing to stabilize symptoms.

 

Here is a list of non-drug coping techniques to deal with problems associated with withdrawal.

 

Most importantly for you, here is a list of tips that may help you sleep a bit better.

 

You might find Yoga or guided meditation helpful for relaxing. Are you able to get some exercise during the day? This can help you sleep a bit better at night. Just simple walking around the block a few times can help. Your nervous system is in a hypervigilant state due to the shock of dropping a heavy sedative too quickly before your nervous system could adapt to its absence. The logic of tapering slowly is that it allows your system to adapt as the drug slowly leaves your system, theoretically causing less damage from the hyperexcited state and keeping you more functional (and happier!). 

 

How are you feeling? How is your diet? Would you like to provide a detailed daily schedule (with symptoms, activity, meals etc) so we can see if anything needs tweaking or may be causing problems? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by DataGuy

[Altostrata]

On 7/5/2020 at 2:43 AM, Hopela said:

I took a chance to stabilize on 0.12mg instead of 0.25mg once I felt symptoms subsiding. It's been 6 nights. Had 3 body jerks and 4 brain zaps during last night. Maybe 2 hours sleep. I might have gone too low. Some worries. Im using pill cutter and I estimate the spread in actually achieved doses is 0.07 to 0.18mg, or ±0.055mg, might be too big. If it was 2.5 ±0.055mg it might have been an ok spread but the relative difference between days might be too big at this low dose. At 0.25 mg Im probably getting 0.2 to 0.3mg. Should I try crushing and dissolving that in water and store half over night for better precision? Im guessing that'll get me a spread of 0.10-0.15mg instead. Maybe Ill see what happens by staing a week or so at 0.12mg. Then move up if symptoms don't diminish. Worried I'm seeing permanent damage at these low doses and I'll have to stay on forever fo manage and graudally getting worse and worse and worse since that's what these drugs do.

 

 

What drug are you talking about?

 

12 hours ago, Hopela said:

I have gotten hold of a 3mg melatonin tablet can. Maybe I'll start with cutting it in 4 or 8 pieces?

 

Yes, you can cut it up.

 

Do you have symptoms of a movement disorder? When did they start?

 

Quote

Source: http://cmdg.org/Movement_/drug/withdraw/withdraw.htm

 

Too bad this doesn't include citations. Yes, psychotropic withdrawal can cause transitory dyskinesias.

[Hopela]

Hi DataGuy,

 

Thanks for the support.

 

" you tapered over a period of 2.5 months to 0mg"

The initial taper was just 6 weeks, ending with a cold turkey from 2.5mg to 0. Initial dose was 10mg that I took for 25 days prior to the 6 week taper. They wanted me on 20mg first but I was able to negotiate it to 10mg, one of few things good in this so I was never force fed 20mg as initial dose. 

 

"then tapered the Zyprexa over 6 months from 5mg to 0mg? How was your sleep during this period? "

Initial reinstatement was at 5mg but not getting any sleep during the night I added 2.5mg more and still got no sleep.

Then I took 5 mg zyprexa, with propiomazine but still didnt sleep. 0 hours as far as I know.

But I was able to lose consciousness for 30-60 minutes or so by taking zopiclone. But that does not give real sleep I read while building tolerance and dependence so I used it just a few times. After a week I decide to go 3.75mg instead. Sleep was just as good at this level, ie 0 hours.

 

"Did it get better upon reinstatement?"

Eventually I started feeling more recovered during the days even though I could not recollect anything other than that I had been awake. Went from feeling I would die imminently to that I would deteriorate over a longer period of time. Before jumpting to 0 the second time after 6 months I think I might have gotten 4 hours of broken sleep on on a good night and about 3 hours each for the first 4 days of 0mg the second time. But even if I didn't sleep I think my ability to recover from just resting without sleeping had gone up during the six months. After my first jump to 0 sleep went to 0 after just two nights. After 5 nights I cut a 2.5mg in half and used the  smaller part. I was able to get maybe 1 hour sleep.  I did this 4 nights with some 0 mg in between. I ended with 3 nights of nothing and no sleep before reinstatement the first time.

 

From today ill use 0.16 mg zyprexa. My sleep was not there last night and felt very tired this morning. Took 0.375mg Melatonin and will do tonight to.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hopela]

HI Altrostata,

Thanks for support.

 

"What drug are you talking about?"

I was talking of zyprexa/olanzapiin

 

"Do you have symptoms of a movement disorder? When did they start? "

Movement disorders  I dont recall last night. They started when going to 0 the second time primarily. I was shaking and unable to stay in bed the first time but it was different this time in that it was local contractions. They are largely gone with updose. Ill see tonight. But I had alot of brain zaps last night. Three in a row with just a few seconds in between at one time. Hopefully gone with todays updose too.

[Altostrata]

1 hour ago, Hopela said:

They are largely gone with updose.

 

Do you mean your updose to 0.16mg Zyprexa?

 

It might be a good idea to hold at this dosage for a good while, let your nervous system settle down before you go into the last leg of the taper.

[Hopela]

Yes I updosed to 0.16mg Zyprexa. This will make cutting more precise aswell both relateively and absolutely. I estimate ±0.03mg.

 

Tonight I did have a few involuntary movements but they were not very violent.

I had brain zaps aswell. Inlcuding two occasions of double brain zaps. Instantly recurring brain zaps elicits the thought of having brain zaps constantly, like every 3 seconds. Hopefully not going there.

 

On the way down to 0mg Zyprexa, passing 0.25mg and 0.12mg totalling 20 days I had no brain zaps or body jerks I can think of. It was the zero that started it. Or perhaps time.

 

Im not sure if Melatonin is helping. Maybe I'll try 0mg Melatonin tonight.

 

Somewhat more rested today though. Can't say if I've slepped though. But even when having "unbound" thoughts, visions or are they dreams I feel fully awake.Some recovery happens.

 

[Altostrata]

Many people find fish oil and magnesium supplements helpful, see
https://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
https://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

You might try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

[Hopela]

I'm having 0.16mg zyprexa.

Brain zaps are there but quicker than with melatonin. Maybe 5-10/night.

Muscle contractions during the night. Random body parts including face. Not so violent. Maybe 5-10/night.

No sleep that I can recall. Just trying to rest.

 

[DataGuy]

On 7/13/2020 at 2:05 AM, Hopela said:

I'm having 0.16mg zyprexa.

Brain zaps are there but quicker than with melatonin. Maybe 5-10/night.

Muscle contractions during the night. Random body parts including face. Not so violent. Maybe 5-10/night.

No sleep that I can recall. Just trying to rest.

 

 

@Hopela, if you are going to take melatonin, the optimal dose is around 0.3mg. See this link:

 

"Many early studies were done on elderly people, who produce less endogenous melatonin than young people and so are considered especially responsive to the drug. Several lines of evidence determined that 0.3 mg was the best dose for this population. Elderly people given doses around 0.3 mg slept better than those given 3 mg or more and had fewer side effects (Zhdanova et al 2001). A meta-analysis of dose-response relationships concurred, finding a plateau effect around 0.3 mg, with doses after that having no more efficacy, but worse side effects (Brzezinski et al, 2005). And doses around 0.3 mg cause blood melatonin spikes most similar in magnitude and duration to the spikes seen in healthy young people with normal sleep (Vural et al, 2014)."

 

Also, when you add or subtract a supplement, you should do so for a number of days in a row (around a week is usually good) before deciding whether it is helping or hurting. It is also best to try to avoid changing other things at the same time (adding multiple supplements at once, changing your behavior substantially, changing bedtime or wakeup time etc.). This helps to avoid any confusion as to what is causing any changes. Keep in mind that changes might happens regardless of whether you switch anything as your body tries to heal. Very hard to draw conclusions from one night. 

[Hopela]

Hi Dataguy,

Thanks for support. Interesting quote.

I used 0.375 mg, an easily achievable 8th of my 3 mg tablet.

Brain zaps changed to slower on going up for two days and changed back to quicker on going down. Maybe I'll get more use of melatonin when brain zaps are less prevalent. For now I just didn't like the longer zaps even if the quality change in the brain zaps might have been a coincidence.

Really hoping for sleep tonight.

 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

the-rule-of-3kis-keep-it-simple-keep-it-slow-keep-it-stable

 

[Hopela]

I think no sleep last night. Some dyskinesias which had been fading went back. During the day I had a tough workout and cold/hot alternating shower around 6 pm. I was careful not to shock myself completely with the cold water. Both activities could be healthy/beneficial but I should just do them in the morning. My philosphy is that they induce systemic changeability, recalibration and flow (equivalent of time) at a small destabilization cost. Easy workouts are just flow/time and safer and warm showers are good in the afternoon/eveing. Tough workouts I will use cautiously with careful observation of possible negatives. Thoughts of how I got in this situation also worried me during the night. I will try to think of more positive calm relaxed safe things.

 

I also read about how people get off dopamine addiction. Having iatrogenic dopamine sensitivity that is useful. Bascially the method is to seek boredom. Unfortunately the olanzapine works on so many more receptors than those of dopamine. Yet seeking boredom could be a little aid in getting off the drug with lesser damage.

[DataGuy]

Hi @Hopela, thanks for the update.

 

I think you are on the right track with the exercise and the warm showers in the evening. As long as you don't workout too close to bedtime, it should be helpful. 

 

Body temperature and heart rate variability have been associated with better sleep, so exercise, hot baths or saunas, meditation or relaxation exercises etc can all be helpful. The iatrogenic dopamine sensitivity is interesting. I have heard of something like that in silicon valley as a trend for increasing longevity (the avoidance of novelty-seeking, minimizing dopamine activity), but I'm not sure how much it is based in science. It might be worth a try if you find other methods are not working. In fact, I may try it myself. My sleep has been getting a bit worse over the past month as I have taken on a larger workload. I will let you know if I have any success : )

 

Look forward to hearing from you again, and good luck with the sleep!

[hayduke]

No need to resort to boredom when quiet and peaceful will do.  Make the most of quarantine 🙂

 

🏞️

[Hopela]

Hi

Thanks for replies. Slow fading of symptoms here which is positive. Sleep up to a few broken hours. Colder weather helped. Starting to think of a reduction by crushing cut pill parts and arranging powder into a line for further division.
I found this post https://patient.info/forums/discuss/i-recovered-from-this-drug-you-can-too--711467 of Travis using Taurine and Theanine to increase GABA to withstand olanzapine damages during withdrawal.
Theanine is in green tea, 2-3 cups for effective dose, which I bought some time ago but read could be stimulating so avoided. With Travis account combined with having read that caffeine also found in green tea, variably but around ¼ of coffee, is slightly positive for neurogenesis I might try it as a morning drink.

This post https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/caffeine-in-green-tea   also claims with sources that green tea has very relevant benefits possibly counteracting the heart disease and diabetes that olanzapine gives you aswell as improving brain function and brain aging. Given that 8¼  months of olanzapine according some measures makes your brain 300 yeras old that's good. Travis also mentions meditation, not quite sure how to go about it.

[BadMedicine]

Hi @Hopela. Good to hear you are improving and that you are now getting a few hours of sleep. Still don't know how you cope with so little but I guess you have to deal with what your dealt and you seem to be doing a good job of that!

I have also come across that post on patient. Whilst I don't agree with his reasoning that the gaba receptors get damaged, as although olanzapine is a thiobenzodiazapene it doesn't really have any affinity for gaba receptors (except potentially very weak affinity to gaba-a). However I do believe that increasing gaba signalling could help with olanzapine withdrawal as it generally calms the brain down which could help counteract dopamine, serotonin and histamine signalling that is artificially high as a result of compensatory up-regulation that has occured in response to the inhibitory effects of the drug over time.

Well worth trying the supplements. Let me know how you get on. I have been thinking of trying l- theanine myself. Hope they help you.

BM.

[senseless]

Hi Hopela,

 

Glad to hear you are experiencing improvements in your sleep. 

 

In terms of the brain damage, its quite depressing to have further confirmation of damage these drugs cause. But surely there would be a correlation between dosage and damage caused.

 

I cant confirm as the full study is locked behind a paywall, but i suspect the study participants would be taking doses around 10mg-15mg.

 

At these doses you would have significantly more dopamine blockage. Where as the dose you are on are hypothesised to primarily block serotonin and histamine receptors.

 

Do you disagree/agree?

 

Also in terms of helping your cognition, you should look into regular running. There multiple studies linking it to increased neurogenesis:

 

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnins.2019.01000/full

[Hopela]

Hi BadMedicine,

 

1 hour ago, BadMedicine said:

sleep. Still don't know how you cope with so little

I don't know either.  I'm down to working from home 30% and getting 30% of sick pay now since a month so that helps. I dropped the other 40% by myself when still on high doses of olanzapine so that part is full loss of income but I don't have anyone but myself to support. I'll report on how I get along with taurine and/or theanine.

 

Hi Senseless

1 hour ago, senseless said:

its quite depressing to have further confirmation

Maybe but it's good to have more to show than your own by (mis)diagnosis discredited word that something is very very wrong with these medicines and as a consequence with a society that prescribes them so aggressively despite half a century of whistleblowers. From data I could find in 2019 almost 4% of US population were on antipsychotics. That is an "insane number" but not in the way that would make sense. In total almost a quarter of the US population is on some form of psychiatric drug with antidepressant being the most frequently used drug type with a 13% "subscription rate". I don't live in the US but those were the data I found when searching. Based on what I had already read (and sensed) I have aldready accepted that the data suggests they forced more or less 10 years off my life with this pill even if I get off it. I'm not depressed, not angry, just trying to navigate life based on the relevant data.

 

1 hour ago, senseless said:

Do you disagree/agree?

I mostly agree as in terms of what is being hypothesised is what you say but the fact that I got dyskinesias several days after jumping to 0mg from an already lowish dose (after many months in 0.12mg to 0.61mg range, ie a small jump from almost no hypothesised dopamine blockage to no dopamin receptor  blockage ) but not when making a hypothesised large dopamine blockage jump from 5mg to 2.5mg hints of that what is being hypothesised does not sufficiently capture significant processes. On down dosing one freed receptor can cause, change or interrupt a long chain or network of signals in the nervous system wich "down the road" may change various slow biological processes, this would then by unspecified means lead to supposedly dopamin related sensitivity  after a while causing dyskinesia. Or dopamin receptors were indeed significantly blocked at low doses causing dyskinesia when going to 0mg. Or dyskinesias are not from dopamine receptors. I don't know.

 

3 hours ago, senseless said:

look into regular running

Yes, I was and am still runnig almost every week, though my fitness has taken a toll and appear to get more muscle pains than before. I also do cardio by bike, kettle bell and various body weight movements at home. Once a month I hit the gym but not more often due to corona. I used to be quite healthy, since zyprexa Im just "health oriented". Also good for neurogenesis is calorie restriction, intermittent fasting, hard/crunchy foods, blueberries, sleep and avoiding saturated fats and alcohol.

[DataGuy]

Hi @Hopela,

 

Glad you have had some recovery in sleep. I would be careful with any supplements or drugs. Theanine seems to increase GABA, dopamine and serotonin, according to this article.

 

They have been finding that drugs which activate GABA-A receptors actually increase the rate of neuroapoptosis, or programmed cell death, as do drugs which antagonize glutamate receptors, like ketamine. Various other classes of sedative drugs have also been found to be neurotoxic. I don't know the exact mechanism of theanine, but I'd be wary if it has a sedative effect and increases GABA-receptor activity. In general it seems drugs that change our arousal levels from equilibrium are not great for brain health. Here is an early article on drug induced apoptosis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12408236/

I think people get into trouble when they try to "boost" their healing with certain supplements or take supplements which have similar effects to the drugs they were taking in order to ameliorate withdrawal symptoms. With food, water, exercise, and what little sleep you can get naturally, your body will know what to do. Best to just support it with basic things we know are health-promoting, rather than getting in its way with various artificial (or natural) psychotropics. 

 

"Drug-induced apoptotic neurodegeneration in the developing brain

 

Physiological cell death (PCD), a process by which redundant or unsuccessful neurons are deleted by apoptosis (cell suicide) from the developing central nervous system, has been recognized as a natural phenomenon for many years. Whether environmental factors can interact with PCD mechanisms to increase the number of neurons undergoing PCD, thereby converting this natural phenomenon into a pathological process, is an interesting question for which new answers are just now becoming available. In a series of recent studies we have shown that 2 major classes of drugs (those that block NMDA glutamate receptors and those that promote GABAA receptor activation), when administered to immature rodents during the period of synaptogenesis, trigger widespread apoptotic neurodegeneration throughout the developing brain. In addition, we have found that ethanol, which has both NMDA antagonist and GABAmimetic properties, triggers a robust pattern of apoptotic neurodegeneration, thereby deleting large numbers of neurons from many different regions of the developing brain. These findings provide a more likely explanation than has heretofore been available for the reduced brain mass and lifelong neurobehavioral disturbances associated with the human fetal alcohol syndrome (FAS)."

 

 

[hayduke]

@DataGuy 'developing brain' sounds pertinent to under 25s maybe.  Is there any evidence this takes place in adults?

 

Also noting from what I've read, theanine as an amino acid tends to boost GABA levels.  I'm open to correction but I don't think this is the same as alcohol or benzo molecules latching to the GABA receptors themselves.

[DataGuy]

Hi @hayduke,

 

I don't know much about studies done in the adult brain, but I know they try to minimize the use of sedatives in people in drug-induced comas (for example, for people on ventilators due to COVID). There is one researcher who specializes in this that I know of, Dr. Wes Ely, who has had a number of articles on Post-Intensive Care Syndrome (PICS), which seems to be a condition resulting from deep sedation for long periods. The symptoms seem similar to benzodiazepine "withdrawal" symptoms. They include fatigue and substantial cognitive impairment, among other things.

 

Also, yes, developing brains are more vulnerable to to injury because the "seed" neurons are wiped out, but there is little reason to think drug-induced neuroapoptosis would not happen in adults. It seems to happen in most mammals. 

 

There are also studies that show drugs like benzodiazepines can cause cognitive impairment in older adults long after they discontinue the drugs (for years). There is a phenomenon called post-operative cognitive dysfunction which occurs in some. For most it only lasts a few days or weeks, but for some it can go on for months. So it seems there is some injury associated with sedation. I don't think anything but very short term and low dose use of sedatives, whether they are supplements or drugs, is wise, just based on an abundance of caution. You would think that things like amino acids would not cause problems, but who knows if you are taking one amino acid, like glycine or an analogue like theanine, in isolation in high doses. That is not something that would really happen in our evolutionary history. Probably not as harmful as benzos or APs (if it is harmful), but keeping the use minimal and intermittent seems best. I know it can be tough to relax and sleep. I can try to post a couple studies in the morning. 

[hayduke]

Thanks @DataGuy

 

I would generally agree with minimising intake of any supplement.

 

The study you linked to there shows a neuroprotective effect.  I see theanine as having a lot of the benefits of green tea (widely known to be healthy) without the activating caffeine which is undesirable in wds.

 

Olanzapine is such a pig of a drug that I think anyone dealing with too rapid a taper has more to gain from moderate use of green tea extract than suffering the trials of a steep withdrawal unabated.  Even the risks you posit pale next to the cumulative effects of no sleep and no rest, at least until equilibrium is attained.

 

I would agree with the severity of your warning if you were talking about regular benzo use, but I don't believe theanine is close to the potential risk of those (speaking as someone who might use a prescribed benzo a few times a year).  Again, I'd agree with minimising usage.

If I wasn't sleeping, and theanine let me have a few hours of kip, it's worth it.  It's probably a lot safer than alcohol and I'd still take that over no sleep.

 

Cheers