Hopela: 10mg Zyprexa / olanzapine too fast taper

[DataGuy]

Thanks for the update @Hopela. This is a 33% drop and quite a bit more than we'd advise. Please monitor your symptoms closely to watch for any uptick or destabilization. Although I'm sure you are a relatively healthy, strong guy, being aggressive with reductions rarely pays off for anyone. However, it is 100% your choice how much and how fast to reduce. Just be careful. I think you are right about the Aripiprazole decay. 

 

As for the variation in D2 receptor occupancy in the olanzapine, I think it can probably be attributed to differences in metabolism. Some people have very active metabolic enzymes while others are impaired, and this would contribute to wildly different blood levels given the same dosage. 

 

I hope you are feeling better. 6 hours of sleep per night is great! You will need to let me in on your secret : )

[Hopela]

One week has passed since the drop to 0.14 mg.

 

Sleep is now about 3+3 hours. A bit worse due to waking up during the night. 

A few brain zaps upon waking up in the morning. A bit better.

Some twitching during the day. A bit worse. 

 

I feel good about going to bed since I feel confident knowing I will sleep before too long.

Hopefully getting back to continuous sleep soon.

 

I'll adjust next drop from planned target 0.08 to a target of 0.10 mg, which amounts to a smaller 25% drop (accounting for rounding). 

I'll keep current 0.14 mg for at least 15 days and prolong from there depending on sleep.

 

I think I'm doing well with the pace I'm reducing at. Don't know what the secret is. Just like the doctors who, as evidenced by D2 occupancy graph, have no idea what the occupancy effect of putting someone on olanzapine will be.

[Hopela]

8 th night since drop.

Slept 4+1 hours.

Felt slight burning sensations when woke up first time and trouble sleeping again.

Second time I had a nightmare and woke up feeling and hearing my teeth rapidly biting together and my face twitching. It stopped after a few seconds.

Nightmares were quite frequent before drop too but not the physical symptoms on wake up.

 

 

[ChessieCat]

22 minutes ago, Hopela said:

my teeth rapidly biting together

 

If you are doing this you might consider getting a mouth guard to wear at night to protect your teeth.  You can get fitted ones or you can get "generic" ones which you heat in hot water to mold to your mouth.

 

Here is a link to show you what I'm talking about:  https://www.amazon.com.au/s?k=sleep+mouth+guard&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

[DataGuy]

@Hopela if your sleep persists in being below 6 hours you should consider a small updose. Good idea to use your sleep as a barometer of overall symptom intensity. Although these drugs are not good for you, a significant part of the injury occurs in withdrawing at an overly rapid rate, hence the existence of this site and others. People often do not feel great after having been on psych drugs for many years, but if they come off rapidly they end up feeling much worse and become much less functional. Very shocking to the nervous system to be flooded with excitatory neurotransmitters that it has difficulty dealing with as a result of receptor downregulation. 

 

Thanks for the updates and keep up the good work. Also, good suggestion from @ChessieCat. I have actually heard of people breaking their teeth in their sleep, so be careful. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by DataGuy

[Hopela]

Thanks for good suggestions. I've not had biting issues again.

 

It's been 15 days since last drop and sleep was back up to 6 hours contlnuous last night.

Previous nights I've awoken once and gotten 5 hours. A few times with a slight panic like feeling that subsided within a minute, typically by going to the bathroom. Twitches in general have been reduced. I'm 6kg heavier and slightly weaker than I was some months ago. I also suspect slight sexual dysfunction. As if my hormones are off. Maybe it's just getting older or maybe from the chemicals forced upon me and their withdrawal.

 

Anyhow I'm dropping from 0.14 to 0.105 mg tonight. Looking forward to this next step, the lowest I've ever held except for the two failed attempts at 0. Aiming for at least 16 days and I wont drop until sleep is at least 6 hours.

[DataGuy]

Thanks for the update, @Hopela. I'm sure you could have anticipated my objection. That is a close to 30% drop getting to very low levels. Another thing is that I would like to see a larger sample size of stabilization. Preferably several nights of 6+ hours sleep. Healing from PAWS typically occurs in waves and windows, so although you may sleep 6 hours one or several nights, it is very possible that you could slip back down to 5 hours even without a dose reduction. I think the best thing you can do for yourself is to keep yourself in the most stable place possible and get to a drug-free state in that position. But I'm not sure I'm telling you anything you don't already know. Just trying to pump the brakes a bit on your swashbuckling tapering path : )

 

How do you feel after that reduction? I suppose regardless of your reductions, you are still tapering much more cautiously than I did. But then again I am around 2.5 years off and still having problems, so not exactly a course you would want to emulate.  Hope all is well with you.

[Hopela]

Hi DataGuy,

Yes I know I'm really pushing the pace and taking some risks doing so and appreciate the words of caution. It's been 6 days since last drop. I've had slight disturbances to my sleep not due to the drop so I can't assess sleep impact fully. But I feel like sleep is light, divided in two parts and sums to 5 hours like after last drop. Today I bit my tongue weakly on waking up. I have rare other minor twitches aswell. On waking up it felt similar to having a slight hangover with bad sleep prior. But all in all it's quite okay now.

 

[DataGuy]

That's good news, @Hopela. Are you still managing ok?

[Hopela]

Hi DataGuy,

Quite okay but I measured a slight fever today. Might be the rona. I started feeling strange after having a pizza and coffee yesterday and thought it was too much carbs and withdrawal from this new low dose I've been on for 5 days. Sleep was worse than usual but I definitely got some. I really hope I can weather this without going to hospital because there I might not be able to keep this taper. Ie I would get 2.5mg or I'll cold turkey from this low level to avoid it if I go there. But probably I'll be okay. Got vitD vitC Quercetin Zink and some melatonin to help. Could be a regular flu too, not sure the difference is that big, but I usually never get sick.

[Hopela]

I'm today also taking coconut oil, cistus incanus tea and managing my lysine - arginine balance.

I heard of the lysine arginine theory vs covid in the spring. Interestingly having a pizza with coffe will send your arginine levels up and hence viral replication. Maybe that was it. More lysine today.

[DataGuy]

Thanks @Hopela. Are you feeling any better? I would not worry about balancing amino acids or particular biological targets. Unless something is extensively studied for clinical outcomes (in large, randomized controlled trials), trying to manipulate it with supplements, drugs or other interventions is likely to do more harm than good. The best thing you can do is trust your body. It is quite intelligent after millions or so iterations of evolution. Unless it is a very particular problem like having type I diabetes which requires insulin, it is best to just let your body do its thing. 

 

I thought I had COVID back in February, but it could have simply been the flu. The only reason I thought it might be COVID is because I too almost never get sick, and I don't recall ever having been sick like that with a virus. I was extremely fatigued, headachy and sore. But it seemed to clear up after 48 hours or so...the worst parts, anyway. The one nice thing about being sick was that I actually slept 7 hours for those two nights, which I found very interesting. Haven't slept that much before or since in withdrawal. 

[Hopela]

Hi Dataguy,

The temperature settled to normal after a day. Been feeling okayish since with no clear symptoms The covid test arrived today and I just sent it for analysis, hopefully it can still pick up virus traces and say that was it!

I acquired all the stuff I could need early this year so at least it came to use. I only regulated lysine with food. I'm sure some health oriented people are unknowingly on high lysine diets: lower bread, pasta, rice and increase fish, youghurt and fruits for example, it's that natural.

[DataGuy]

Great to hear, @Hopela. I'm glad you are planning so far ahead : )

 

I believe I've read that even the PCR test delivered under optimal conditions gives a minimum of 20% false negatives. Other tests are even less accurate. But hopefully it was just a cold and you have acquired some level of cross-immunity. I remember Elon Musk was complaining earlier that he had 4 tests in one day and 2 said positive and 2 said negative. Unfortunately probably explained by the lack of test accuracy. 

[Hopela]

Well I didn't know how far ahead I was planning when I bought the stuff. Turns out I was really looking ahead

 

I've read some other news stories about the corona testing too. Tanzania tested a goat and pawpaw fruit and got positive results. An austrian member of parliament got a positive off a coca cola. 97% of PCR test positives being false when over 35 cycles used. Articles on nasal swabs having been studied as possibly covert delivery systems for vaccines and nanotechology. All in all I wasn't sure I wanted to do the test at all for this hard to explain virus with hard to explain public responses. I guess I gave in to my mothers wish. I don't know if the result will mean anything. I've probably not been injected with some detrimental agent while taking the nasal swab. Someone's making loads money off dubious tests. And the fear creating statistics might grow. I will have formal result but Im not sure at all it's worth it. 

 

[Hopela]

Got a positive test result for the rona back today, is it a false or true positive? I've been given no probabilities for that. I have no symptoms except for a very sligthly stuffed nose and sometimes discomfort in my legs. But I also tried smelling stuff and noticed smell was 95% gone. This often happens with a common cold too. Hopefully things won't turn worse and smell will be back soon.

[Hopela]

I should add Im also drinking hot water with honey to beat the virus

[DataGuy]

What brand of test did you use, @Hopela? I can look it up for you.

[Hopela]

Thanks DataGuy, I don't know the brand. It was a public healthcare test just called  COVID 19 PCR test. I called the health care information line from the organisation I ordered the test from to learn more. The one I spoke to didn't know any other name of the test or what lab analysing it. He said he didn't know anything about false positives but said that "reliability is over 80% if taken with symptoms" and repeated that reliability is high if taken in the right way at the right time.

[DataGuy]

Sorry for the delay @Hopela. If it was just a regular PCR test, then I think false positives are not too much of a worry, it is more false negatives. According to this Harvard Health blog, it seems like even under optimal conditions, the false negative rate is close to 20%. False positives are pretty rare and I don't think you need to worry about that. So it seems you have COVID...how are you feeling? 

 

I think it is probably best to pause your taper as you recover from this. Best to get it fully out of your system, as long-COVID can be pretty nasty. On the bright side, you will be unlikely to need the vaccine. I think that is significant, because I've heard even from medical establishment types at JAMA that the adverse effects are not exactly a walk in the park. 

[Hopela]

Thanks for the info DataGuy. I was not planning on taking the vaccine. I guess most who's been through adverse pscyhiatric drug effects will have a firm understanding of potentially real and severe damages from any chemical put into the body no matter what benevolent text like "medicine" or "vaccine" are put on it's packaging.

 

When (probably not if) I get through this COVID I will have some months with freedom from the virus threat after which immunity is uncertain I guess. My symptoms last days are just a thick feeling in the nose and being more tired. But I'm more concerned about persistent damage to sense of smell, erectile function and fertility. That is much more severe effects than the passing flu-like symptoms people are aware of.

 

Yesterday I messed up the Zyprexa dosage, I think I might have gotten 0.04mg. I slept worse but today I was tired and dosed off a short while during the day which has been impossible for me before. I'll keep the 0.07 mg level until Im out of the rona and hopefully it's worst lingering effects.

[Hopela]

Just an update. It's been 21 days since last drop and 15 days since the one day covid fever. That day was followe by a few days of leg discomfort and few days of slighlty stuffy nose and then some fatigue. Now I'm getting 6+ hours of sleep and last few days I've found it's been that time in covid recovery to start doing some light yoga. Previously I had been on short walks. Sense of smell is back maybe 40% already and fatigue is only noticeable occasionally. I know I had a very mild run with the rona and want to give a fair heads up so here's a survery with 88% of non hospitalized patients having fatigue 3 months down the road.

https://www.biomax.com/lib/press-releases/Initial-Result-Announcment_English.pdf

And here's an article on fertility problems:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/covid-is-harming-sperm-israeli-researchers-say-raising-infertility-worries/

Of the supplements/diet I used hopefully effectively lysine with no caffeine and little arginine is the least known here's it's support:

http://bio-virus.org/index.html

I would have also tried N-AcetylCysteine (NAC) if got it again to maybe speed up recovery.

 

Tonight I'm planning to drop to 0.035 mg of Zyprexa which will be the final level before quitting. Three to four weeks minimum I'll hold at 0.035.

 

[DataGuy]

Glad to hear about your sleep, @Hopela.

 

Long COVID is definitely a problem. I am not sure of the original survey there, but I would hazard to guess it is a non-random sample conducted online, so may have skewed to people with persistent symptoms. The most common numbers I have seen for long-COVID  are something like 5-20% of symptomatic patients. They definitely need better research on that, though. Could be a serious problem down the road when people try to return to work. Lucky you are young and healthy!

 

That is good you are avoiding caffeine. Although I think it is ok for most people in coffee, I'm not sure about people in withdrawal, given its neurotoxicity.

 

Ok, @Hopela, your choice to jump when you like. Remember that reinstatement is an option should you start to suffer excessively. Don't want you disappearing again : ) 

 

Remember: the acute and post-acute phases of withdrawal can last for months or years, so please check in regularly and take good care. Look forward to your success story!

Edited January 7, 2021 by DataGuy

[Hopela]

Hi DataGuy, that is good to hear you have found just 5-20% with persisting problems. I keep bumping in to more alarming numbers but around 10% is still a lot though.

 

I'm doing more intense exercise now but keeping it short. I can feel internally overwhelmed in a way I'm not used to after an intense movement. I'm intentionally proceeding slowly with getting back to regular exercise.

 

I'll keep updating. 4 days since drop now. Got 3+2 hours of sleep.

[DataGuy]

Good to hear, @Hopela. I assume by 3+2 hours you mean 5? That is not bad at all. Hopefully it persists and improves. 

 

Yes, I think return to more intense exercise is a good idea. I have really found that exercise improves almost every symptom. I just need to get back into fasting now...

[Bobblehead]

Hi Hopela, I've been reading your thread, you've had a hard time and been through a lot. I know what your going through with Zyprexa withdrawals, from what I've read Zyprexa is one of the hardest psych meds to discontinue because it interacts with a lot of different receptors in the brain, I've read so many stories on the Internet.

 

Sorry to hear you tried to commit suicide, I know the feeling. There are times when I think it might be easier to end it all, but I keep fighting. I want to get off Zyprexa and recover but I don't know if a full recovery will ever happen. The unknown is the worst.

 

If you're getting 5-6 hours sleep a night that is very good. I only got 3.5 hours last night. The night before I got nothing. I struggle with insomnia, it's currently my number 1 withdrawal problem.

 

Also glad to hear your TD has subsided. I've lived is total fear of developing that, and because I was on such a high dose of Zyprexa (40mg) I think I was at high risk.

 

Stay strong and keep at it!

Edited January 10, 2021 by manymoretodays
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[Hopela]

Hi DataGuy,

Yes by 3+2 I mean I wake up once and sleep again totalling 5h. I also find exercise and intermittent fasting is good. I happened to come over some apple cider vinegar and ginger shot recently so going to try that istead of breakfast to lose a few kg.

 

Symptoms I had last night, 11th since drop, was some brain zaps, twitches and awaking with a panic. I've decided I will add another transitional level to 0.00mg to reduce future symptoms. It will be 0.017mg but I might hold it for just a week or two extra depending on symptoms.

 

Hi Bobblehead,

Thanks for your post. That is good you keep fighting. I think not only my well being but also my judgement was impaired by coming off too fast. I'm feeling alot better now especially getting sleep consistently. I'm also extending the time spent on very low doses which I think will help. Thanks so much for your encouragement and best wishes to you too.

 

Talking of movement disorders and covid vaccines it would really not be good to escape disorders from psychiatric drugs but get this instead:

https://thehighwire.com/videos/what-do-you-do-if-youre-injured-by-the-covid-shot/?fbclid=IwAR2DM6-OOfnHHXSI13bWiKdGhhN1rftb68634YH1T-PMOCIWNK8KvRCV3qY

[DataGuy]

Thanks @Hopela. I think it is a great idea to add another transition dose. I would always err on the side of going slower than you think you need to. Brain zaps and twitches are not at all good symptoms to be having if you can avoid them. Has there been a time in the taper where you managed to get rid of them completely? The reason I would be concerned is that once people step off of the drug entirely, they can experience an uptick in symptoms that lasts quite some time. Best to have the smoothest transition possible. 

 

Thanks for the link. I don't think the vaccine rollout is going quite as smoothly as they planned. I know I have had an adverse reaction to at least one of the ingredients prior, so at this point I am a bit hesitant. But my turn will not be up for quite some time, so I'll be able to observe a large sample of doses to put my mind at ease (or not!). 

[Hopela]

Hi Dataguy,

Yes I think I've been rid of zaps and twitches before going to a lower level. The onset of these twitches were a bit late after the drop. Maybe there is a tendency for hard to clear receptors remaining blocked when going to lower levels, since easy ones are freed first per definition and so the clearance time will be longer on lower drops and the onset of symptoms will be more delayed. I had some anxiety and heart rate yesterday evening and only slept 2+1 hours. I hope things turn around now.

[Hopela]

I dropped to 0.017mg three days ago. I got back twitches, brain zaps, anxiety and increased insomnia. Quite amazing how powerful the drug is when such a small change sets off reactions. It was definitely right not to go to 0 directly. However I think I will be able to jump from this point if you can even call it a jump. Sleep is still 5+ hours so quite good. I'll wait out the other symptoms before trying out 0 again.

[DataGuy]

Sounds good @Hopela. Hope you aren't in too much of a rush. Not sure if I have mentioned before, but Brass Monkey recommends holding for quite a long time in the endgame taper, in many cases 6 weeks, just because we are making such large reductions relative to the size of the dose. Hope you are feeling and sleeping better, buddy. Good luck whenever you decide to jump off : )

[Hopela]

After ten days at 0.017mg I'm going 0.000 mg tonight. I thought about doing it yesterday and it felt strange to not do the routine of creating the right amount. Getting off has been a main focus in life for almost 17 months since I was locked up and put on the chemical and the initiation of the going to bed routine. It's the third attempt at 0 mg. Hopefully it goes well.

[DataGuy]

Congrats @Hopela. Hope the jump goes smoothly and sleep + other symptoms stabilize in a few days. You have gotten off fairly quickly, but some people don't have much of a problem with that. I hope you are excited to be drug free and healthy. It's nice not having to worry about taking a drug : )

[Hopela]

Thanks DataGuy. I'm good so far. It took six days last attempt before I got diarrhea and headaches. It's been three days this time. But the preparation has been much better so I think I will be fine. I'm also sleeping 6 hours this time instead of just a few hours.

[DataGuy]

Wow that's great news, @Hopela. The sleep should provide a bit of a bulwark against being overwhelmed by symptoms. Hope things continue to go well. Really excellent news. Congrats again!

[Hopela]

Just an update. Have had some twitches and sleep reduction but overall okay, 5 hours broken. One morning I was half asleep dreaming of swimming and swimming and swimming. Then I grew tired of it and thought I'll just wake up and did so noticing simultaneous twitching in my neck, chest and legs almost as if I was swimming. It lasted a minute more or so but eventually disappeared. Twitches have reduced since. And I think sleep was a bitt better this night to 4+2 h maybe.