Nuttinanna: Is this “normal”?

[manymoretodays]

On 4/5/2019 at 12:42 PM, Nuttinanna said:

I fortunately managed to find somewhere not too far away and have just picked up the keys today.  My daughter and husband will help me move but I have found it all almost too much.   The emotional effect has been overwhelming -  and physically and mentally I am totally exhausted.

 

I stopped dropping doses a while back and have stuck on 2mL (8mg) as I think my body has enough to deal with right now!

 

This move has caused me so much anxiety and fear that I have been very tempted to increase the fluoxetine!  But I won’t!

 

Wow Nuttinanna,

 

I hear you, and am so sorry your relocation/move has been so difficult.  Just surviving is no fun at all.  No doubt you ARE quite exhausted.  I'm hoping that you can get some quality rest as you settle on in now or soon to your ? 3rd new place.  I think you might be on to, or getting some springtime weather soon in the UK too.  We are headed toward nicer weather and more sunshine here in the U.S. now.  Although......it's snowing today!!

 

Good idea to not increase the fluoxetine.  Just HOLD.  Perhaps HOLD a bit longer than usual, until you feel a bit more settled and then some.  I imagine your lupus acts up a bit too with stress.  And moves ARE very stressful....or can be.  And you've got WD symptoms to manage too.

 

Okay,

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

mmt

 

 

[Nuttinanna]

Goodness it has been to years since posting on here!

 

Hello to all - hope you are coping in these crazy times.

 

I am still not free of Fluoxetine although am still trying.

 

I have had two years of mostly trauma and so have had to suspend tapering to fit with circumstances.  I have had to move house four times and am now settled (I hope).  I am now on 1.4ml (5.6mg)
 

The last drop was too much (12%) and I paid the price for it with bad WD for the past month so ill wait a bit longer and then drop by 5%.

 

I am so tempted to just 'jump off' now as I am so fed up with the process but as I don't know how bad it would be and how long I would have to suffer, I guess I will just keep going!

It is so crazy that taking what amounts to about a quarter of a teaspoon of liquid can have such dire effects if lessened too quickly - it is almost harder now it is such a small amount than when I dropped from 40mg to 20mg a few years back.

 

Oh well - onwards and upwards!

 

Love and blessings x

[Nuttinanna]

Moderator note: merged with previous introduction topic

 

I have been tapering Off Fluoxetine for over 2 years now and have read all the help subjects.  I thought I knew what to expect each time I dropped..  But this time (10 weeks ago)I dropped from 6.4mg to 5.6mg (12%} it has been awful.  I had bad WD For 8 weeks with no break then a window of 4 days and now WD again for 5 days. It’s not been this bad before Or for so long.  I know 12% was maybe a bit too much but why has the WD kicked off again after getting better?
Please someone reassure me this is going to stop at some point?

Edited July 8, 2020 by DataGuy

[Gridley]

Welcome to Sam Nuttinanna.

 

Yes, this is normal.  WD is going to be ups and downs, the windows and wave pattern of withdrawal symptoms that you probably are familiar with.  

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

As you get lower in dosage, the effect of the drug can become stronger, and very likely the 12% drop was too much.  It's a very good sign that you had that window.  

 

You might want to consider a very small updose, perhaps to 6mg.  You're still within the time frame when an updose most predictably works, and often a small updose can provide considerable relief.  Then you would hold there for quite a while, several weeks or even months, in order to stabilize before tapering again at a slower rate.  Otherwise, you can wait it out.  It's going to stop, but we can't predict when.

 

I see you're already taking fish oil.  You might consider magnesium, which many members find calming.  Start at a low dose and work up.

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

We generally don't recommend multi-vitamins, as if something is causing a problem it's not possible to identify which supplement is the cause.  Also, multi-vitamins contain B-complex, which can be overstimulating to someone in withdrawal. 

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by Gridley

[Altostrata]

3 hours ago, Nuttinanna said:

Moderator note: merged with previous introduction topic

 

I have been tapering Off Fluoxetine for over 2 years now and have read all the help subjects.  I thought I knew what to expect each time I dropped..  But this time (10 weeks ago)I dropped from 6.4mg to 5.6mg (12%} it has been awful.  I had bad WD For 8 weeks with no break then a window of 4 days and now WD again for 5 days. It’s not been this bad before Or for so long.  I know 12% was maybe a bit too much but why has the WD kicked off again after getting better?
Please someone reassure me this is going to stop at some point?

 

Withdrawal symptoms are a sign your nervous system is struggling to adapt to the change in drug. It may do better, then slip back again. You might increase slightly, to 5.75mg, to give it a hand.

 

There's a reason we recommend decreases of 10%. The idea is to make changes so small, your nervous system adapts quickly to the change.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

[ChessieCat]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

There's a reason we recommend decreases of 10%. The idea is to make changes so small, your nervous system adapts quickly to the change.

 

This might help you to understand:

 

  

On 8/31/2011 at 5:28 AM, Rhiannon said:

 

This is something I posted somewhere else and then saved. I know it's all stuff I've said before, but it bears repeating and further discussion. A lot of people, including healthcare practitioners; in fact, I guess, most people-- are operating from entirely the wrong paradigm, or way of thinking, about these meds. They're thinking of them like aspirin--as something that has an effect when it's in your system, and then when it gets out of your system the effect goes away.

 

That's not what happens with medications that alter neurotransmitter function, we are learning. What happens when you change the chemistry of the brain is, the brain adjusts its chemistry and structure to try to return to homeostasis, or biochemical and functional balance. It tries to restabilize the chemistry. For example: SSRI antidepressants work as "serotonin reuptake inhibitors." That is, they cause serotonin to remain in the space between neurons, rather than being taken back up into the cells to be re-used, like it would be in a normal healthy nondrugged brain. So the brain, which wants to re-establish normal signaling and function, adapts to the higher level of serotonin between neurons (in the "synapse", the space between neurons where signals get passed along).

 

It does this by removing serotonin receptors, so that the signal is reduced and changed to something closer to normal. It also decreases the amount of serotonin it produces overall. To do that, genes have to be turned on and off; new proteins have to be made; whole cascades of chemical reactions have to be changed, which means turning on and off OTHER genes; cells are destroyed, new cells are made; in other words, a complex physiologic remodeling takes place. This takes place over time. The brain does not grow and change rapidly. This is a vast oversimplification of the amount of adaptation that takes place in the brain when we change its normal chemistry, but that's the principle.

 

When we stop taking the drug, we have a brain that has designed itself so that it works in the presence of the drug; now it can't work properly without the drug because it's designed itself so that the drug is part of its chemistry and structure. It's like a plant that has grown on a trellis; you can't just yank out the trellis and expect the plant to be okay. When the drug is removed, the remodeling process has to take place in reverse. SO--it's not a matter of just getting the drug out of your system and moving on. If it were that simple, none of us would be here. It's a matter of, as I describe it, having to grow a new brain. I believe this growing-a-new-brain happens throughout the taper process if the taper is slow enough. (If it's too fast, then there's not a lot of time for actually rebalancing things, and basically the brain is just pedaling fast trying to keep us alive.) It also continues to happen, probably for longer than the symptoms actually last, throughout the time of recovery after we are completely off the drug, which is why recovery takes so long.

 

With multiple drugs and a history of drug changes and cold turkeys, all of this becomes even more complicated. And if a person is started on these kinds of drugs at an early age before the brain has ever completely established normal mature functioning--well, it can't be good. (All of which is why I recommend an extremely slow taper particularly to anyone with a multiple drug history, a history of many years on meds, a history of past cold turkeys or frequent med changes, and a history of being put on drugs at a young age.)

 

This isn't intended to scare people, but hopefully to give you some idea of what's happening, and to help you respect and understand the process so you can work with it; ALSO, because you are likely to encounter many, many people who still believe these drugs work kind of like aspirin, or a glass of wine, and all you need to do is stop and get it out of your system. Now you can explain to them that no, getting it out of your system is not the issue; the issue is, you need to regrow or at least remodel your brain. This is a long, slow, very poorly understood process, and it needs to be respected.

 

 

[Nuttinanna]

Thanks for all the replies.  
I am pleased to report that things are slightly improving although still have lots of horrible symptoms to deal with.

 

One thing I noticed as I decreased the dose over the last couple of years is how much clearer my mind is getting (when not in WD). But although in one hand this is a good thing, I am finding it very hard to deal with.  Whereas before I was just bumbling along and just dealing with everyday stuff, now I am questioning everything.

 

i have always been an empath but now am a super sensitive one!  I know immediately, even on the phone, if someone is not being totally honest or is upset about something.  My brain is becoming a hyper vigilant bullsh*t detector.  
 

The thing I am finding the hardest of all is all this pandemic nonsense and all the lies and manipulation that is going on.  I never really used to listen to or read about what Politicians were up to but now I can see through all the bullsh*t and it has been making me so ANGRY!  
 

I have never felt such anger before and am sure it is the lowering fluoxetine that is fuelling it.  There are many others who agree with me about the current situation in the world but they don’t seem to be reacting with the intensity that I am -when I think of how the politicians are manipulating people by fear I get so angry I feel physically sick.  
 

While this vile stuff is getting out of my system I need to find o way of tempering the anger as there is not really anything I can do about the “situation!“  But I don’t know how.  I turn off the TV and don’t do social media and try not to talk to people if I can help it but inevitably someone will mention face masks or “Social distancing” and I am off!
 

Apart from the major root of my anger,  I have absolutely no patience with anyone who is not doing their job properly, not understanding what I am saying to them - in fact anyone or anything that is not behaving in the way I think they should!

 

This I suppose is what you mean by neuro emotions?  I read all stuff about them but have only this second made the connection. I had better go back and read again and hope it tells me what to do before I kill someone! (Only kidding)
 

Nuttinanna x

[Artistic1]

@Nuttinanna Hi, Nuttinanna. I'm in the same age group as you, and I totally get what you're saying about all of this. As I taper my med down, I'm finding that things are bothering me more again - less than when I was on the med. But what has helped immensely with my perspective on these things is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I've been doing this since 2017, and believe me, it has made a huge difference. I recognize what my triggers are as far as going off the deep end with my opinions etc, and the CBT helps me to balance my thoughts. I actually see things differently, now, and that is so freeing not to be held hostage by my thoughts. If you can, find a good CBT therapist, or at least a book to get started. It is actually something you can teach yourself. 

Best wishes!

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Nuttinanna said:

I need to find o way of tempering the anger

 

You might find this post on managing anger helpful.

Dealing With Emotional Spirals - Symptoms and self-care ...

[Nuttinanna]

1 hour ago, Artistic1 said:

@Nuttinanna Hi, Nuttinanna. I'm in the same age group as you, and I totally get what you're saying about all of this. As I taper my med down, I'm finding that things are bothering me more again - less than when I was on the med. But what has helped immensely with my perspective on these things is Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. I've been doing this since 2017, and believe me, it has made a huge difference. I recognize what my triggers are as far as going off the deep end with my opinions etc, and the CBT helps me to balance my thoughts. I actually see things differently, now, and that is so freeing not to be held hostage by my thoughts. If you can, find a good CBT therapist, or at least a book to get started. It is actually something you can teach yourself. 

Best wishes!

Hi Artistic
Thanks for your reply.
Good point about Cbt but I did months of this type of therapy already, as well as ‘ordinary‘ therapy and cognitive something else I can’t remember the name of!  I have had years of therapy but of course it was while I was still taking Relatively high doses of Fluoxetine.  Back then I didn’t realise the impact the drug was having on me and none of the therapists ever mentioned it!  Maybe I need to start therapy again - now I am seeing things more clearly.  But not right now of course because I am likely to tell any therapist where they could stick CBT!
I know this OTT anger is because of tapering WD right now but of course it must have a real root which would be good to dig out.
You say you are about the same age as me - do you ever think “Goodness I hope I live long enough to come out the other side of this!!”
So glad you found Cbt so helpful x

Nuttinanna

[Artistic1]

@Nuttinanna

Hi, Nuttinanna....you asked if I ever think, "I hope I live long enough to come out the other side of this!!" ABSOLUTELY!! ALL THE TIME!! It's one reason tapering slowly is so hard. I'm 71, and at the rate I'm going, I'll be close to 75 when I finally get off. I'm hoping that things will go well enough in the next year that I'll be able to make the tapers that will get me off sooner. Just want to do it safely.

 

Too bad about the CBT for you. At least you're aware of it and have done it. Lots of people won't even try it.

 

I also think that one reason all this stuff going on in the world today is so frustrating is because we've been around long enough to just be tired of hearing a lot of the same old bull****, and nothing much changes in the long run!

 

Hang in there!

Artistic1

[Erell]

On 7/17/2020 at 2:10 AM, Artistic1 said:

.you asked if I ever think, "I hope I live long enough to come out the other side of this!!" ABSOLUTELY!! ALL THE TIME!!

 

You're such a powerfull inspiration both of you : no matter the age, we always have the right to heal and cherish our soul.

 

Take care ☀️

[Artistic1]

Thank you, Erell! It's so good to know that others are reading our posts and supporting us.

[Nuttinanna]

Just coming out of another wave of unbelievable awfulness so when I read your post 

On 7/18/2020 at 11:51 AM, Erell said:

 

You're such a powerfull inspiration both of you : no matter the age, we always have the right to heal and cherish our soul.

 

Take care ☀️

 
Just coming out from under another wave of unbelievable awfulness so when I read your post Erell I had mixed feelings!  Part of me thought how sweet and kind of you to say that and the other thought “Yeah, right.”  😘
 

This last few days I have for the first time been wondering not just “Is this ever going to get better” but also “Maybe it is a recurrence of whatever state I was in back in 2003!”  I don’t even remember how I was feeling back then or why I started on these horrible drugs but maybe as depression can be part of the Lupus, I won’t ever get back to normal.  But I know that if my body is struggling so much to wean off these things then I can’t imagine it was doing much good to it and I will be better off without them in my system.  
 

I am Definitely going to hold for a long time once this current settles down properly and I forget how bad it was, and then just drop a little (5%) and see how that goes.  I did think I would just stick at this and not go any further but don’t really want to be messing about with syringes every morning forever!

 

On the positive side - I have found that I am gradually beginning to understand more about what is causing the depression and anxiety that has dogged me since childhood.  Sometimes it seems like the worse the wave the more clarity i get afterwards- although that clarity doesn’t always last.  All the stuff that I dealt with in therapy over the years seems to be opening up more so that’s good.

 

i know that having a debilitating illness like Lupus, which I got when I was 30, has made it harder to deal with everything but
I am a Christian and have been just about hanging on to God’s hand through all this and trusting that he will bring me through it, despite doubts and fears.  🤓

Love and blessings to all on this incredible journey x

 

[Nuttinanna]

Reinstating?

 

It is now three months since last taper and I am still really struggling.  
 

if I increase the dose slightly will it take the same time to kick in as the WD does after a drop?

Fluoxetine WD for me takes 10 - 12 days after drop to kick in.
 

And am I likely to get side effects from increasing?

 

Oh I hate this!

 

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by ChessieCat
added topic title

[ChessieCat]

I've moved you new post to your Introduction topic which is the best place to ask questions about your own situation.  The mods regularly check the new posts in the introductions forum.  It also keeps your history in one place.  If you post elsewhere on the site your post may be overlooked.

 

Q:  What symptoms are you currently experiencing?

 

Q:  Have the symptoms been the same since you last reduced, or have any developed more recently?

 

Q:  If the symptoms have developed more recently, is there anything that happened, either related to your drugs, illness, external stressors?

 

It looks from your drug signature that you moved recently.  Q:  Is that correct?  If so, that could certainly be the cause of the increase in WD symptoms.

 

Q:  What symptoms are you having the most difficulty with?

 

Q:  How is your sleep?

[Nuttinanna]

At the moment I keep falling into really bad depression.  Head zaps are less severe but I have general confusion, unable to focus, nausea, vague headaches, anxiety, unable to engage with anything, extreme fatigue, irritable, bouts of extreme anger when triggered, no interest in eating (although do try to eat some good stuff at least once a day). At the moment sleeping ok but dreaming like crazy (not normal)

 

This has been much worse and for much longer since my last drop at the end of April.  I Know I dropped 12% from 1.6ml -1.4ml  (6.4mg - 5. 6mg) which was probably too much but would that account for such prolonged WD?

 

I did have a window of about 4 days somewhere in the middle when it all suddenly lifted, and then a slight improvement about 2 weeks ago but that was only a day.
 

I don’t think the symptoms have got worse recently - they have been constant for the last three months - just more intense and longer than the usual WD I get which normally lasts about a couple of weeks after each drop.
 

The house moves (all 4 of them) were in the 12 month period Sept 2018 - Sept 2019.  All were traumatic and not my choice.

 

As I have Lupus, one  of the things that concerns me is that I don’t know how much the reduction could be triggering that as well. Lupus comes with chronic fatigue, brain fog, etc.  I could never find anyone who could tell me how, or if, fluoxetine affected Lupus in any way.

 

I also have a chronic cough and congestion  that exhausts me (have had it for 18 months and has been checked out).  
 

I am really feeling like giving up this (and I am not a quitter) and maybe even up-dosing to a level that I could get In tablet form.  It is really getting too hard!  I don’t know how long this will take (it’s been Nearly three years so far).  Its hard enough dealing with Lupus for the last 40 years - maybe I shouldn’t have started to do the tapering - I just don’t know.  And I am anxious about up-dosing because I don’t know how that will affect my system.  It normally takes about 10-12 days for WD to kick in after a drop so does that mean the same would happen with the effects after an increase?
 

I really don’t know what to do, or even if there is anything I can do.  I do so wish that there was someone I could talk to that understood who could provide some kind of support.  I contacted a therapist yesterday to see about maybe going to talk to her but she really couldn’t understand what I was trying to say as whe doesn’t know how these drugs effect the brain and sometimes stop you from making a lot of sense!

 

   You guys at SA are lifeline - although I can see you are really busy too you take time to understand and care .  Thank you. X

Sorry this has been so long and rambling 
 

love and blessings x

Ps: One thing I have just realised is that I made the last drop at the time of the lockdown in the UK.  I know I have really struggled with what’s going on in the world right now and makes me very angry.  Not the virus - but the way governments are using it for political purposes.  Could that maybe account for increased and prolonged WD symptoms?  That feeling of seeing what people are doing and not being able to do anything about it?  The feeling of anger and helplessness?  But how do I deal with that? 🤓

 

 

 

 

 

[Nuttinanna]

 

After My previous post I was looking through some of the other posts and came across a thread called ‘Acceptance’.  I realised just how much I am constantly fighting pretty much everything in my life at the moment and it really struck a chord.  I am probably using up what little energy I have in this fight.  I am going to explore this, even though I know it will be hard, and see how that works out. 🤓

[ChessieCat]

10 hours ago, Nuttinanna said:

I did have a window of about 4 days somewhere in the middle when it all suddenly lifted, and then a slight improvement about 2 weeks ago but that was only a day.

 

This is a good sign.

 

10 hours ago, Nuttinanna said:

Ps: One thing I have just realised is that I made the last drop at the time of the lockdown in the UK.  I know I have really struggled with what’s going on in the world right now and makes me very angry.  Not the virus - but the way governments are using it for political purposes.  Could that maybe account for increased and prolonged WD symptoms?  That feeling of seeing what people are doing and not being able to do anything about it?  The feeling of anger and helplessness?  But how do I deal with that?

 

Since the beginning of this year we have had members reporting that they have had unexpected and/or worse waves.  I know that in Australia the government/medical establishment are well aware that the situation can affect people's mental health.

 

9 hours ago, Nuttinanna said:

came across a thread called ‘Acceptance’.  I realised just how much I am constantly fighting pretty much everything in my life at the moment and it really struck a chord.  I am probably using up what little energy I have in this fight.  I am going to explore this, even though I know it will be hard, and see how that works out.

 

Yes, accepting our situation can make a big difference.  It doesn't change the fact that we are experiencing something but accepting that it is what it is, at this time, can definitely help.

 

There are some excellent resources on this website:  https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/selfhelp.htm

 

These in particular may be helpful:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/act.htm

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/act2.htm

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/options.htm

 

And these are good too, one is a female voice and the other male:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicF.mp3

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/music/FirstAidPanicM.mp3

[Nuttinanna]

On 7/28/2020 at 1:40 PM, Nuttinanna said:

 

HELP!  
 

Decided yesterday that it was going on for too long and was too intense so up-dosed from 1.4 ml to 1.5ml.  Woke in the night with such bad dizziness I couldn’t lift my head off pillow or move.   Nausea and headache.  Now after 8 hours it has subsided a little but now what do I do?  Do I go back to 1.4ml or stick with 1.5ml and hope it settles?  Or go for somewhere in between if I can find a small enough syringe?

 

its like Russian Roulette!

 

Please advise me what to do as I have to take the next dose in an hour or so.

[ChessieCat]

When talking about your dose please show it as mg not mL.

[Nuttinanna]

Up dosed from 5.6 mg to 6mg

[ChessieCat]

On 7/28/2020 at 9:35 PM, Nuttinanna said:

This has been much worse and for much longer since my last drop at the end of April.  I Know I dropped 12% from 1.6ml -1.4ml  (6.4mg - 5. 6mg) which was probably too much but would that account for such prolonged WD?

 

I did have a window of about 4 days somewhere in the middle when it all suddenly lifted, and then a slight improvement about 2 weeks ago but that was only a day.

 

So you had been on 5.6mg since end of April?

 

And you have now gone from 5.6mg to 6.0mg. 

 

It might be better if you could take 5.7 or 5.8mg.

 

If you are unable to get a small syringe from a pharmacy you can probably get one from a vet.

 

The other option is to dilute your dose with water so you can measure a larger quantity.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by ChessieCat