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Bikkel: olanzapine/Zyprexa sleeping problems / mirtazapine


Bikkel

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Hello everyone! Expected a lot in my life, but not that I would sign up on a platform to get off antidepressants / antipsychotics. But here I am.

 

My nightmare started in September 2019 when I dropped out of work with a burn out with the main complaint that I could no longer sleep. Not sleeping actually made me panic and anxious. With these complaints I went to the GP and he gave me Mirtazapine 7.5 mg. prescribed after some brief experiments with sleeping pills. This despite my protests, unfortunately I gave in. This was at the end of September 2019. 

 

After 6 weeks of using mirtazapine at 7.5 mg, I started to decrease to 0 on my own initiative for a month. Once I got to 0 I had a totally disrupted sleep rhythm where I slept every other night. Several times I was unable to sleep two nights in a row. Unfortunately, I panicked again so much that the GP sent me to a psychiatrist. The psychiatrist gave me 7.5 mg Mirtazapine again after 5 weeks of not using it (early December 2019), unfortunately without any effect on my sleep. The mirtazapine is then increased to 15 mg. (mid-December 2019) and then to 30 mg (early February 2020). Olanzapine has also been added to the mix, 5 mg (end of December 2019).

 

After the introduction of olanzapine, all I could do was sit on the couch like a zombie, unable to formulate more than 5 sentences in a row. Hell. From an active and sporty 44-year-old woman to a greenhouse plant. After insistence on my part, the psychiatrist has agreed to stop the medication. At that time I had already reduced the mirtazapine myself in four weeks from 30 mg. to 15 mg. (May 2020) with no adverse effect on my sleep. Much to my horror, the psychiatrist's plan was to use 2.5 mg olanzapine for two weeks and then stop. After that, the mirtazapine could be tapered, 7.5 mg for two weeks and then stop.

In the meantime I had already looked around on this site and I already knew this plan was an accident waiting to happen. Unfortunately, I could not have a good conversation with the psychiatrist: he indicated that my fear of this rapid tapering was related to my OCD symptoms - the diagnosis he had made on the basis of my fear of not being able to sleep. But to be honest at this point, I was over the fear of not being able to sleep, overtaken by a fear of not surviving this tapering experiment. He also indicated that he always let people stop their drugs in this way, without any complaints. However, he did make a comparison with patients who have been hospitalized. My doubts as to whether this was a correct comparison (I can imagine that people who have been admitted to hospital receive even more medication and that there is always a medication that keeps them asleep during the withdrawal of olanzapine) was scorned away.

 

Out of sheer desperation, also because I just really wanted to get rid of the olanzapine, I was able to negotiate the following construction: 5 weeks on 2.5 mg. olanzapine and then tapering off 2.5 mg for 2 months. to 0 with tapering strips that are available in the Netherlands. And no reduction of the Mirtazapine yet. To be honest, I already knew that this was way to fast. During the reduction of the olanzapine I started to suffer from sleeping problems. These were approached by the psychiatrist with unimaginable nonchalance. Body and mind would naturally come together again and I would sleep better. Nothing is less true. After stopping olanzapine on August 1, I sleep dramatically bad: just like stopping mirtazapine, I sleep every other night and regularly not for two nights. A nightmare. I have the feeling that sleeping is going to get even worse, as more people have described on this site I don't seem to get sleepy anymore and during the day I feel exhausted, but at the same time also agitated and alert.

 

I have just returned from an appointment with the psychologist associated with the practice where the psychiatrist was also employed until recently. She more or less admitted that mistakes were made in my case. She doubts the diagnosis of OCD, thinks that such heavy medication should never have been prescribed and that I have not been properly guided with the tapering. Too little too late. The options she suggested were Trazodone (no thanks) or give it time. No re-introduction of olanzapine.

 

My plan for now is to indulge in a state of insomnia and pray to God to keep it up. For now, I am too stubborn to start on Olanzapine again (which is also not suggested) and I don't want any other medication. Unfortunately I have read horror stories on this site about people who suffer for months and even years with severe sleeping problems. And that makes me very sad. I am afraid of losing my job (I still have a year of sick leave to go), I can no longer practice my great passion, running, can no longer do nice things with friends and of course this drama also has a major impact on my loved ones, my husband and parents.

What also makes me very sad is that I also have to stop Mirtazapine afterwards.

In short, I feel defeated.

 

Onwards….

Edited by Gridley

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Welcome to SA, Bikkel.  I'm sorry you're going through this.  If you've read a bit on our site, you're already aware that experiences like yours are all too common.  The vast majority of doctors know nothing about safe tapering or withdrawal (which they don't believe exists).  I know you feel defeated at this point, but you will come out of this.  

 

We recommend tapering by no more that 10% of your current dose every four weeks.  This link explains the thinking behind this:

 

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

You have undergone a lot of dosage changes and fast tapers, resulting in your nervous system being destabilized.  So that you have a better idea of what you're experiencing, here is some information on withdrawal.  Sleep disruption is one of the most common symptoms of withdrawal.

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

 

Daily Checklist of Antidepressant Withdrawal Symptoms (PDF) 

 

Brain Remodelling 

 

Video:  Healing From Antidepressants - Patterns of Recovery

 

When we take psychiatric medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.  

 

You mentioned tapering the Mirtazapine.  Right now what your system needs is stability.  I'd hold off on tapering the Mirtazapine to give yourself some time to stabilize, likely several months.  Once you have stabilized (and you will), you can begin a safe, slow 10% taper.  This link is specifically about tapering Mirtazapine.  

 

Tips for tapering off mirtazapine (Remeron)

 

Here are some links regarding sleep.

 

Tips to help sleep - so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Relaxation exercises, guided meditations, calming videos, sleep hypnosis

 

Tricks and tips to fall asleep faster

 

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2017/02/16/tips-tricks-fall-asleep-faster.aspx?utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20170216Z1&et_cid=DM133787&et_rid=1889748952

 

This link contains helpful information, including insomnia and also non-drug coping skills.  

 

Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems

 

Some members have found Melatonin helpful with insomnia.   

 

 Melatonin for sleep   

 

It's best to start at a very low dosage, such as .25mg, and gradually increase if needed to the lowest effective dose.

 

The following post was written by Apace43, one of our moderators.  I found many of his suggestions helpful regarding sleep.

 

 

there is, unfortunately, no "silver bullet" to withdrawal or any of its symptoms, including insomnia.  If there were, SA would be a much smaller site than it is at this point.  Sadly, it continues to grow as more and more people get caught in the psychiatric medication "web."

 

As Gridley said and you by now clearly understand, insomnia and disordered sleeping is a hallmark of psychiatric medication withdrawal.  It starts earlier than that with many studies making it clear that SSRIs (and other psych meds) frequently suppress REM sleep for those who take the meds.  https://www.sleepio.com/articles/sleep-aids/antidepressants-and-sleep/  Given this as a backdrop, it should be no surprise that coming off the meds can wreak havoc on sleep.  The good news, however, is that the brain works hard to achieve homeostasis and, all other things being equal, the brain will return to a place where sleep becomes, as it should be, a matter of routine.  How long that takes for any one person is impossible to predict. 

 

So, what do you do?  In no particular order, some of the things to try:
  • Don't place too much significance on sleep.  Rest should be the key and when your body absolutely needs to sleep it will.  The anxiety that comes with lying awake and saying "I must sleep" is far worse than the not sleeping.  It's hard but it can be done.
  • Try a journaling practice before bed -- get out the things that are on your mind and add 3 things you are grateful for from the day
  • Get a sleep ritual in place so that you do the same thing day after day and start to repair your circadian rhythms
  • Take a warm bath with epsom salts few hours before bedtime and add in a cup of chamomile tea
  • Use lavender essential oils in a diffuser at bedtime
  • Exercise early in the day so that you aren't activated near bedtime
  • Get outside and get some sunlight early in the day so that your rhythms are reestablished
  • Make sure you have a consistent bedtime 
  • Try not to be too activated in the couple of hours before bed and, of course, no caffeine
  • Add a meditation practice
  • Try yoga
  • Go for walks in nature
Most insomnia is the result of the body being "hyperstimulated."  It is very hard to calm down an overstimulated body, especially when it is the result of chemical cascades that come as a result of medication use and withdrawal.  But, it can be done to a certain degree and the skills learned will provide valuable as your body improves over time.  

 

From my own perspective, my sleep is still not great, but it it better than it was.  I went through many stretches of 2 or 3 days with zero or an hour or two a night of sleep.  At this point, I have the occasional sleepless night, but most nights I'm good for at least 5 and usually closer to 6 hours.  By "normal" people standards that's not great, but it feels pretty good when compared to 0 or 2-3 hours a night.  As the saying goes, "in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king!"

 

Try not to let it become the dominant factor in your life.  Over time, it will get better and you will heal.  Just do your best to continue to live your life what your brain is repairing itself.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system. 

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Add in one at a time and at a low dose in case you do experience problems.

 

This is your Introduction topic, where you can ask questions and connect with other members.  We're glad you found your way here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Gridley

Gridley Introduction

 

Lexapro 20 mg since 2004.  Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017.   

End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg 

End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg

End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg  

Oct. 30, 2020  Jump to zero from 0.025mg.  Current dose: 0.000mg

3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete.

 

Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements

Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium

Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium 

End 2021  year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg

End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg 

End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg

Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper.

Taper is 95% complete.

 

Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986.  Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg  

March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper

Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper

Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper.  Current dose as of Feb. 22: 7.6mg

Taper is 90% complete.  

  

Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, anti-candida, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase


I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs.

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  • Administrator

Hello, Bikkel. When did the sleeping problems resume in your olanzapine taper? At what level of olanzapine?

 

How has your sleep pattern changed in the last month?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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@Gridley @Altostrata : Thank you for your quick reply. It's very much appreciated. 

 

Gridley:

 My idea is not to taper off the mirtazapine until I have stabilized. Unfortunately, the psychiatric nurse has a different opinion. She wants me off the mirtazapine because it does nothing for my sleep. She doesn't understand my concern that if the mirtazapine is tapered now, I probably won't sleep at all. I was able to negotiate that I will still be prescribed mirtazapine for the next 4 months. I am afraid of what will happen after these 4 months.

 

Altostrata: 

During the 5 weeks that I took 2.5 mg. olanzapine, there has been 1 week where I slept every other day. This stabilized and I went back to sleep every day.
The sleep problems started when I was around 0.9 mg., this was on July 10th. In the weeks from July 10 to August 1 I had nights in which I slept (8 hours), nights in which I did not sleep and nights in which I slept for several hours. This without a clear pattern.
The tapering was completed on August 1. From that time on I sleep every other day and once a week I do not sleep two nights in a row. There are no longer nights were I sleep for a couple of hours. It's all or nothing.

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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  • Administrator
15 hours ago, Bikkel said:

The tapering was completed on August 1. From that time on I sleep every other day and once a week I do not sleep two nights in a row. There are no longer nights were I sleep for a couple of hours. It's all or nothing.

 

So your sleep has been poor since early July? Why not introduce 1mg olanzapine and taper slower off that?

 

How has your sleep pattern changed in the last 2 weeks? What is your current daily drug schedule, with dosages for each drug?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • 2 months later...

May I ask your advice on the following:

 

I have decided not to start on Olanzapine again.
At the moment I still sleep very badly, but I have seen some small improvements in recent weeks. I sleep 3 nights a week, 8 hours. The last few weeks I slept 4 nights a week several times and once even 6 nights. But most weeks I sleep 3 nights 8 hours and 0 to 5 hours in the other 4 nights, usually 3 to 4 hours a night. In recent weeks I have also been sleeping 2 nights of 8 hours in a row more often, where it used to be only one night.

 

My concern is this: I think the mirtazapine has stopped working and is having a negative effect on my sleep. I think the mirtazapine stopped working when I stopped it for the first time at the end of October 2019. When I started using the mirtazapine again in early December 2019 it stopped helping my sleep. I only went back to sleep when I started the olanzapine at the end of December 2019.
With the knowledge that I now have of this site, I should have stopped taking the mirtazapine first. Unfortunately, the psychiatrist advised me to taper off the olanzapine first.

 

At the moment I am really panicking and I am not sure what to do next. Can I further stabilize my sleep on the 15 mg mirtazapine I am currently taking you think? Should I hold longer? Or do I have to start tapering the mirtazapine (following the 10% or less rule)? What makes me panic is that if my sleep is so bad already, how can I ever get off the mirtazapine? What will happen to my sleep if I start tapering the mirtazapine? Will it completely disappear you think? 

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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Anyone?

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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  • Administrator

Hello, @Bikkel.

 

It's a good sign that your sleep has improved. The better nights should slowly become more frequent.

 

What times of day do you take your drugs, and their dosages? How do you feel before and after taking mirtazapine?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Thanks for your response Alto. 

Unfortunately my sleep worsened the last 3 nights. I fall asleep quickly (getting to bed at 21.45 hours every evening) but wake up after 3 or 4 hours. I struggle to fall asleep again after I wake up at 00.30 / 1.30 in the night. I managed to fall asleep again at 4.30 this night for 2 hours. This pattern is new to me and worse than before. I don't seem to get the 8 hours nights anymore, which concerns me. 

 

I take 15 mg. mirtazapine at 20.00 in the evening. I don't feel any effect from the mirtazapine. It doesn't make me drowsy of sleepy anymore. I think this effect stopped after reintroducing the mirtazapine in december 2019 and was covered up by introducing the olanzapine. That drug was making me sleeping. 

 

I also take melatonine 3 mg. at 18.00 in the evening. I do think this is somehow effective. Since I take the melatonine I feel that I become sleepy when I'm sitting on the coach. The strange thing is that when I take the melatonine later in the evening, it doesn't make me feel sleepy when sitting on the coach. When that doesn't happen, it's usually not a great predictor for a good night of sleep. 

 

My main concern is that the mirtazapine is no longer helping for my sleep (in fact, I don't think it's doing anything at all, except making me feel depressed and giving me lower backpain). What are my chances of getting my sleep more stable on the 15 mg. mirtazapine that i'm currently taking? Should I give it more time so that i'm in a better place when i start tapering the mirtazapine? I know that I came off Olanzapine way to fast and that this is probably impacting my sleep. 

 

I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place: With my sleep pattern as it is now I'm not able to taper my mirtazapine, I think. It will probably destabilise me more? But wat if i'm also in a poop out from the mirtazapine and not be able to stabilise on the 15 mg. i'm currently taking. 

 

I'm trying my best to think positive and to not spiral down in catastrophic thinking. But I must say that I find it difficult. I'm struggling. 

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi Bikkel,

Any change in the sleep the last two nights?

 

On 11/25/2020 at 6:29 AM, Bikkel said:

I don't seem to get the 8 hours nights anymore, which concerns me. 

 

I take 15 mg. mirtazapine at 20.00 in the evening. I don't feel any effect from the mirtazapine. It doesn't make me drowsy of sleepy anymore. I think this effect stopped after reintroducing the mirtazapine in december 2019 and was covered up by introducing the olanzapine. That drug was making me sleeping. 

 

I also take melatonine 3 mg. at 18.00 in the evening. I do think this is somehow effective. Since I take the melatonine I feel that I become sleepy when I'm sitting on the coach. The strange thing is that when I take the melatonine later in the evening, it doesn't make me feel sleepy when sitting on the coach. When that doesn't happen, it's usually not a great predictor for a good night of sleep. 

 

Back when I had sleep difficulties, I don't know exactly what I did, but I recall briefly getting up after the night awakenings.......sometimes just to get some water or do something simple.  And then try again.  Then I managed to get to 5 hours solid sleep, brief awakening, and then a couple more hours after that.  Which is where I seem to have stayed.  And that is adequate for me, now.

 

Have you always taken 3 mg of melatonin?  Or when did you start that?  And then, from my understanding, for it to work best, one should be in bed, in the dark, and all ready for sleep when they take it. 

3 mg is a large dose too.  You might consider reducing the dose.  Oddly, sometimes less is more effective.  I take a sublingual type of melatonin, it dissolves under the tongue and that works well for me.  It's right there, at my bedside to take, when I'm done reading sometimes.......a book, which I like to do before sleep, or journal a bit.

See:  Melatonin for sleep

 

And more basic sleep hygiene tips:

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

There's a nice indexed list of tips, right in the first post ^

Basic guidelines would be to limit screen time prior to sleep time, computer screens, television, notepads, smart phone, etc.  Try and keep to a regular schedule, which it appears that you do.  Keep it dark where you sleep as well.  And limit the bedroom to sleep and intimacy, if you do have a partner now.

 

On 11/25/2020 at 6:29 AM, Bikkel said:

What are my chances of getting my sleep more stable on the 15 mg. mirtazapine that i'm currently taking? Should I give it more time so that i'm in a better place when i start tapering the mirtazapine? I know that I came off Olanzapine way to fast and that this is probably impacting my sleep. 

 I think that you might still be adjusting to being off the Olanzapine.  And I would not regret your being off of that nasty one.  I don't think the sleep that one gets on Olanzapine is all that restorative.

 

I'm not certain if the mirtazapine ever benefited your sleep.  And I'm doubtful that just staying on it, at 15 mg, is going to improve much.  It's been about 6 months now on the 15 mg of mirtazapine?

 

I think if it was me, I might consider beginning tapering again, using the 10% or less, guidelines.  I see links to that topic, and the specific mirtazapine/Remeron tapering topic in Gridley's post above.  You may want to review them now.

Of course it's up to you, that's my 2 cents.

 

Do please continue to ask questions, and update us.  Work the non-drug coping practices too.

 

And so hoping, you get, or are beginning to get some sleep restoration soon.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited by manymoretodays
highlighting links

Late 2023- gone to emeritus status, inactive, don't @ me, I can check who I've posted on, and I'm not really here like I used to be......thanks.

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.  And.....I quit smoking 11/2021. Lapsed.  Redo of quit smoking 9/28/2022.  Can you say Hallelujah?(took me long enough)💜

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider.  My success story:  Blue skies ahead, clear sailing

 

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Hi manymoretodays, 

 

Thank you for your response and insights. Unfortunately my sleep went completely down the hill the last couples of days. 

I can't seem to get past 01.00 / 01.30 when it comes to my sleeping (I go to sleep at 21.45). I wake up and I am immediately wide awake, not able to fall asleep again until 03.40 or 4.30 in the night. Sometimes I manage to get another hour, sometimes 2 hours between 4.30 and 6.30, in which I dream very intensely. I don't know what caused the change in my sleeping pattern after almost 5 months, but it makes me very anxious. It's not enough to be functional during the day and I'm fearing to lose my job because of it. 

 

You suggest to start tapering the mirtazapine. The thing is that I'm really afraid that this will have an impact on my sleep and that it worsens my sleep further. What freaks me out even more is  the thougt that the mirtazapine is causing my current sleeping problems. Shall I then continue to have this sleeping problems during my whole mirtazapine taper? That means years of sleep problems ahead...

I worry that I will never reach a point of stablitity with my sleep, and have to start my mirtazapine taper from a destabilised point, and continue to destabilise further during my taper. 

 

I'm completely at a loss about the best way forward: 

 

- Hold on 15 mg. mirtazapine (maybe for another 3 to 6 months) and see if my sleep progresses in this time frame? 

- Or start tapering the mirtazapine now? 

 

When I read my message back I see that I'm repeating myself and that you have already given advice to start tapering my mirtazapine. I want to apologise for my behaviour and my indecision. I'm just so traumatised by all the bad medication and tapering advises given by the specialists the past year, that I don't know what to do anymore. I'm already knocked out on the ground and just can't handle another wrong decision. The sleeping problems, depression, awful vivid dreams, snippets of songs stuck in my head, the fear of losing my job because all of this... 

 

I'm sorry for the people with even severe complaints. Please don't feel offended by my complaining. You are very strong! 

 

To finish: I made a mistake in my current post. I'm taking 0.90 mg melatonine, not 3.0 mg. 

 

 

 

 


 

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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  • ChessieCat changed the title to Bikkel: olanzapine/Zyprexa sleeping problems / mirtazapine
  • Moderator Emeritus
15 hours ago, Bikkel said:

You suggest to start tapering the mirtazapine. The thing is that I'm really afraid that this will have an impact on my sleep and that it worsens my sleep further. What freaks me out even more is  the thougt that the mirtazapine is causing my current sleeping problems. Shall I then continue to have this sleeping problems during my whole mirtazapine taper? That means years of sleep problems ahead...

I worry that I will never reach a point of stablitity with my sleep, and have to start my mirtazapine taper from a destabilised point, and continue to destabilise further during my taper. 

 

I'm completely at a loss about the best way forward: 

 

Hi Bikkel,

And okay, good on the melatonin dose then, 0.9 mg.

 

And you don't have to start tapering now, if you don't feel ready, right now.

And no, I don't think, you will continue to have this sleeping problem through your whole taper.

 

We do that sometimes, catastrophize a bit.   It's going to be okay.  Go back to that post of Gridley's to read some of what was shared there.  You are sleep deprived.  It stinks.  It can be real tough, but oh so many here deal with the same.  Makes me wonder if we should host a none sleeping club or something sometimes. B)  That would defeat the purpose of getting off screens though to help.  I came on here, early on, at all hours though, as it was a comfort.  Explore the site some more, if you can, or stop on in other members who are trying to get through, without great sleep, and keep their job.  It can help Bikkel.

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals

You may be having some of the cortisol awakenings, those can be hard to get back to sleep from.

Early-morning waking- managing the morning cortisol spike

Might be something that helps ^

 

And keep updating here too, Bikkel.  I want to know when you have a good nights sleep.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Late 2023- gone to emeritus status, inactive, don't @ me, I can check who I've posted on, and I'm not really here like I used to be......thanks.

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.  And.....I quit smoking 11/2021. Lapsed.  Redo of quit smoking 9/28/2022.  Can you say Hallelujah?(took me long enough)💜

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider.  My success story:  Blue skies ahead, clear sailing

 

Link to comment

I have made an incredibly stupid mistake. I was under the impression that I took 3 mg. melatonine at night: 3 pills containing each 1 mg melatonine. 

I now found out that each pill contains of .29 mg melatonine, 250 mg valerian root and 100 mg passion flower. That means that I take every night .87 mg. melatonine, 750 mg valerian root (!) and 300 mg passion flower. I started taking this supplement at 16 september. 

 

I'm beyond scared that this is attributing to my sleeping problems, especially the valerian root. I suppose that I can not just stop taking this supplement but that I have to taper? This night I cut out a quarter of one of the 3 supplements, meaning that I take 687,5 mg valerian root, .64 mg melatonine, and 275 mg valerian root. 

 

Any thoughts? 

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi Bikkel,

 

16 hours ago, Bikkel said:

I have made an incredibly stupid mistake. I was under the impression that I took 3 mg. melatonine at night: 3 pills containing each 1 mg melatonine. 

I now found out that each pill contains of .29 mg melatonine, 250 mg valerian root and 100 mg passion flower. That means that I take every night .87 mg. melatonine, 750 mg valerian root (!) and 300 mg passion flower. I started taking this supplement at 16 september. 

 

I'm beyond scared that this is attributing to my sleeping problems, especially the valerian root. I suppose that I can not just stop taking this supplement but that I have to taper? This night I cut out a quarter of one of the 3 supplements, meaning that I take 687,5 mg valerian root, .64 mg melatonine, and 275 mg valerian root. 

 

Any thoughts? 

 

Well, yes, as far as thoughts.  I won't even paraphrase, but will share with you another moderators thoughts.  I will go to purple, for my own.  And thank you @brassmonkeyfor your input and comments:

People gotta read what's in these pills before they take them. Taking too much sleep stuff is a great way to not be able to sleep, and this is a good case. Any one of these would be fine, but all three and at these doses is overkill.  So, yah, don't beat yourself up though Bikkel, mentally.  You probably did not know that we do advocate in a couple places, for just single ingredient supplements.......and then we don't endorse anything but magnesium and Omega 3's, as so many are sensitive.

Valerian will go paradoxical at higher doses, but it usually goes into tolerance first. It's only effective for about four weeks then goes into tolerance and needs to be tapered. If they have been on a high dose for a long time they should do a standard 10% taper as valerian is a naturally occurring SSRI.  I had asked about it going paradoxical.

 

Same goes for the passionflower, except it works more like a benzo/opiate.

 

After 2 plus months she could probably still get away with a fast taper. Reduce by a quarter of a tablet each week for 12 weeks. But there will still be sleep problems along the way and for a while afterwards. She is dealing with mirtazapine which is well know for insomnia during tapering.  And so you are on the right track, with tapering Bikkel.  Just wait a week now, since your last 1/4 tablet taper, and then reduce again in a weeks time.  I'm referring to the combination melatonin, valerian, and passion flower tablets there.  And don't "freak out" around the "well known for insomnia" comment, on the mirtazapine.  I'll comment on your last sleep report in a minute.

 

The dose of .87mg for the melatonin is fine, but will need to go along with the others. Once at "0" a smaller dose of melatonin could be reinstated. She need to understand the melatonin is not a "sleeping pill" but rather a chemical signal that tells the body it is time to go to sleep. It doesn't put you to sleep and keep you there but rather tells your body it's time to go night night.  And I think you can add the melatonin back again, at some point, using a single ingredient type.  And then even starting out with .25 - .50 mg dose, taken right as you are ready to let your head hit the pillow.

 

On 11/29/2020 at 1:53 AM, Bikkel said:

Thank you for your response and insights. Unfortunately my sleep went completely down the hill the last couples of days. 

I can't seem to get past 01.00 / 01.30 when it comes to my sleeping (I go to sleep at 21.45). I wake up and I am immediately wide awake, not able to fall asleep again until 03.40 or 4.30 in the night. Sometimes I manage to get another hour, sometimes 2 hours between 4.30 and 6.30, in which I dream very intensely. I don't know what caused the change in my sleeping pattern after almost 5 months, but it makes me very anxious. It's not enough to be functional during the day and I'm fearing to lose my job because of it. 

 

This was back on Sunday.  Not horrid though.  Almost 4 hours sleep and then, best case, 2 more hours.  I've seen worse.  So look at this as promising for better sleep patterns coming soon.  That intense dreaming has happened to me too, in my final sleep phase of a night.  I'd often go back to sleep in the morning even, so that I could dream.  Some will jot down their remembered dream fragments, and use it as a kind of therapy I think.  Something you could google, or we might have a topic here, too.

To search for stuff here, I usually use my main browser, and type in first survivingantidepressants.org and then follow that with the subject or topic.

Here's what we've got on Valerian root, and Passion Flower......which I found doing a search that way. 

Valerian root

Passion flower

 

And then, if you want to, you can add to those discussions too.

 

That first awakening, sure sounds like the cortisol awakening thing going on.  You can look at that link some more if you'd like.  Sometimes it helps, other times it doesn't to learn more about this stuff.  It sounds like for now, you may want to focus on improvements,and things that you ARE doing well enough at.

 

Okay, hoping you are sleeping more solid soon Bikkel or feeling a bit more relaxed about it all.  Many here who "get it". 

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

Edited by manymoretodays

Late 2023- gone to emeritus status, inactive, don't @ me, I can check who I've posted on, and I'm not really here like I used to be......thanks.

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.  And.....I quit smoking 11/2021. Lapsed.  Redo of quit smoking 9/28/2022.  Can you say Hallelujah?(took me long enough)💜

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider.  My success story:  Blue skies ahead, clear sailing

 

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  • Administrator
On 11/30/2020 at 2:56 PM, Bikkel said:

That means that I take every night .87 mg. melatonine, 750 mg valerian root (!) and 300 mg passion flower. I started taking this supplement at 16 september. 

 

This does not sound very scary to me. In fact, if you are getting a few hours of sleep, the melatonin is probably effective. It has a half-life of a few hours.

 

It seems your sleep may be poor because of olanzapine withdrawal. You might reinstate a tiny amount, such as 0.25mg, and see if it helps. After a while, you'd taper off that.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • Moderator Emeritus

Hi Bikkel,

Any updates?

And then:

I'm going to just post this:  Tips for tapering off Zyprexa(olanzapine)

I know you said you used tapering strips, when you tapered off Zyprexa.  How low in dosage did those go?

This link ^ will explain how to get the lower dosages needed, for a tiny reinstatement dose, from the other forms available.

 

Okay, Best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Late 2023- gone to emeritus status, inactive, don't @ me, I can check who I've posted on, and I'm not really here like I used to be......thanks.

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016.  And.....I quit smoking 11/2021. Lapsed.  Redo of quit smoking 9/28/2022.  Can you say Hallelujah?(took me long enough)💜

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider.  My success story:  Blue skies ahead, clear sailing

 

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  • 9 months later...

@Bikkel HOw are your vivid dreams ?

2017 october--2018 march->(6 month) fluoxetine 20,30 mg-->cold turkey= after 2 month semen leakage

2018 july---2018 Aug-->(24 days) fluoxetine 20 mg --> cold turkey = vivid dreams begin

2018 december 2019 Jan-->(1 month) Amitriptyline 25--> cold turkey
--------++++--horror of drugs begins. Taking one after another and cold turkey-------+++------------------
2019 May--2019 May--> (12 days) Lexapro cold turkey

2019 May--2019 august -->(3 month)Cobazam 10 mg +amitriptyline 25 mg --> clobazam cold turkey

----2019 october ---> went cold turkey amitriptyline 25 mg.

2019 october--2020 Jan -->(3 months) duloxetine cymbalta 30mg --->cold turkey

2020 jan-2020 Apr--> (3 months) paroxetine 25 mg --> Cold turkey

2020 July--2021 Jan--> (6 months) amitriptyline 50 mg ,75 mg,100 mg ,125 mg -> cold turkey

2021 jan--2021 May--> (4 months) imipramine 75 mg -->cold turkey

2021 may-2021 Aug--> (3 months) nortriptyline 25 mg --> cold turkey== still semen leakage and vivid dream

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  • 5 months later...

@Altostrata

I hope you don't mind me approaching you directly.
I've updated my signature, so hopefully it's clear which drugs I'm currently taking and when I'm taking them.

I hope you can help me with some questions.

 

I haven't been active on the forum for a long time. My original post was about the sleeping problems I experienced after stopping Olanzapine. You then advised me to start again with a little bit of Olanzapine. I have chosen not to. I would have followed the advice right away with any other drug, but not with Olanzapine. Horrible, horrible medication. With so many requests for help on the forum, I didn't think it was right to take any more time from the moderators and then not follow the advice.
Another reason I stopped posting was my slip up with the herbal blend. I've been so sad about that: I've always been so careful about taking things and now in the chaos of stopping the Olanzapine and the hassle of doctors doing this.

 

In September 2021 I switched GPs to talk about the tapering of Mirtazapine. Since using Mirtazapine I have suffered from insane hair loss, to the point that I will need a hairpiece in the near future. This breaks my heart. The GP I have now is aware of the difficulties that come with the withdrawal of antidepressants. My wish was to start taping myself, in pill form, according to the instructions on this site. Unfortunately, this was not negotiable for my GP, she wants me to use tapering strips. On January 1, 2022 I switched from 15 mg of the brand Aurobindo to 15 mg compounded pills from the Rainbow Pharmacy. My sleeping problems came back full force from day 1 that I started the compounded pills. On February 23 I had an appointment with my GP. She gave me 3 choices: go back to my old Aurobindo pills, continue with the compounded pills, or start tapering. Because I slept well again the week before the GP appointment, I opted to continue with the compounded pills (and of course not start tapering yet!). Unfortunately, the severe sleeping problems returned.

 

I have another appointment with the GP tomorrow. I have been sleeping well for a week and a half. I don't really know how to proceed now. I have an appointment with the GP to stay on 15 mg in April. Because the tapering strips have to be ordered fairly far in advance, I now have to think about what I want to do in May.

 

Alto, would you mind thinking along with me about the following:

 

- I've been sleeping well for a week and a half. Hopefully it will stay that way, but it's not certain. Would you advise me to continue with the compounded pills or to switch back to my old brand, Aurobindo? I have been taking the compounded pills for 3 months now. Maybe it's too late to go back to my old brand? What do you think?

 

- I am worrying a lot about my use of the herbal blend. I read a lot of bad stories about Valerian in particular and its effect on the liver. Not to forget that it can contribute to sleeping problems. 
I have not yet dared to tell my GP about the use of this herbal blend, because my feeling is that she then wants me to stop using it at once. What would you advise? First stop with the herbal blend and then decrease with the Mirtazapine? I find myself very focused on the Mirtazapine tapering because of my hair loss. But deep in my heart I know that the tapering of the mirtazapine will take years and I can't prevent my hair loss. What do you recommend? First remove the Mirtazapine or first the herbal blend? Am I panicking too much about using the herbal blend in your opinion?

 

- Furthermore, I am dramatically low in my vitamin D. I started low with drops of D3 early in the morning, but stopped because I still suspect that it has an effect on my sleep. What do you recommend? Still going ahead with the introduction of D3? Being too low in Vitamin D can also cause hair loss, but actually I'm sure it comes from the use of Mirtazapine.

 

Thanks in advance for any response, it is much appreciated.

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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@AltostrataI'm so sorry! I now see that a part of my previous post got lost somehow. 

 

The part that is missing: I have got a horrible, horrible time after coming off Olanzapine. I will spare you the details, because I know for sure that you get the picture without me going in to a lot of details. Especially the sleeping problems were horrible. With a lot of stubornness I pulled through. In May 2021 my sleep became better, in the late summer of 2021 my sleep was 75 - 80 % restored. I still woke up a lot of times during the night, but was able to get to sleep again quickly after waking up. Sometimes I was experiencing a really bad night, but not dramatically. I was functioning reasonably well, working, doing some sports and my household en meeting friends. I then decided in September 2021 to meet my GP and discuss the tapering of Mirtazapine.

* Mirtazapine, taken at 20.00 in the evening: 

- 1 January 2022 direct switch from brand Aurobindo 15 mg. to 15 mg. compounded pills (tapering strips) 

- 1 June 2020 15 mg. 

- May 2020 tapered down to 15 mg. in 4 weeks

- 1 February 2020 30 mg. (advice psychiatrist) 

- Mid december 2019 15 mg. (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 December 2019 reinstatement of 7.5 mg. because of sleeping problems (advice psychiatrist)

- 1 September 2019 - mid October 2019 7.5 mg. Tapered off in 4 weeks on advice of GP.

* Herbel blend, taken at 19.00 in the evening: 1 January 2021: 2 pills 500 mg. Valerian, 260 mg. Passion flower, 0,2 mg. melatonine. // Vitamins: 200 mg. Magnesium + 2000 mg. fish oil - 18.00 in the evening / 400IE D3 - 7.30 in the morning (stopped). 

* Olanzapine: 

- Start end of december 2019 5 mg. - stop at 1 August 2020. 

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  • Administrator

I'm confused about what you're asking. It seems you want to go off mirtazapine, but your GP is not cooperative with more gradual tapering, and approved what in tapering strips?

 

It seems you made a first reduction at the same time as introducing a new prescription in tapering strips, had some problems getting used to the new formulation, but your sleep is back to baseline now?

 

What is your question?

 

11 hours ago, Bikkel said:

- I've been sleeping well for a week and a half.

 

Whatever you're taking, keep taking.

 

11 hours ago, Bikkel said:

- I am worrying a lot about my use of the herbal blend. I read a lot of bad stories about Valerian in particular and its effect on the liver. Not to forget that it can contribute to sleeping problems. 

 

If you're getting a bad result, or suspect it's giving you a bad result, stop taking it.

 

11 hours ago, Bikkel said:

- Furthermore, I am dramatically low in my vitamin D. I started low with drops of D3 early in the morning, but stopped because I still suspect that it has an effect on my sleep.

 

Take much smaller drops to start, build up gradually over weeks to a good dose.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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