stevenb: need advice on tapering Zyprexa and citalopram

[Altostrata]

@stevenb how are you doing?

 

Why are you taking Zyprexa and Celexa? What times of day do you take each drug, and at what dosages? What are the symptoms that are causing you to go off both drugs?

 

Tapering 2 drugs at once confuses the process. You may have more success if you tapered one at a time.

[stevenb]

On 9/30/2020 at 5:15 PM, Altostrata said:

@stevenb how are you doing?

 

Why are you taking Zyprexa and Celexa? What times of day do you take each drug, and at what dosages? What are the symptoms that are causing you to go off both drugs?

 

Tapering 2 drugs at once confuses the process. You may have more success if you tapered one at a time.

I'm fine thanks. I take celexa in the morning and zyprexa at night before bed. Right now im taking 10mg of celexa and 7.5mg zyprexa. I was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder.

 

I feel I have to taper both. When I continually took the meds everyday I was having terrible reactions, it's hard to explain it was just very unpleasant and got better when I decided to lower the dose. It feels right for me to taper both.

[Altostrata]

How do you feel, having cut your doses in half on September 21? Did you get withdrawal symptoms? What were they? Did they go away?

 

You have a history of attempting to taper but failing. We would like you to succeed in minimizing your drugs. We go by how you feel. If you can't describe your symptoms, we have nothing to go on for advice.

 

Going on and off isn't good for your nervous system, slow and steady is better -- one drug at a time.

 

 

[stevenb]

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How do you feel, having cut your doses in half on September 21? Did you get withdrawal symptoms? What were they? Did they go away?

 

I can't say that i'm having any withdrawal symptoms, nausea or anything like that. Maybe I am I just don't notice it. I am having one really big issue though... I can't get good sleep at all. Weather i'm on 7.5mg of zyprexa or 15mg zyprexa I never get good sleep. I have to cycle through sleep aids and pain relievers just to find that sedating effect that wears off from a pill in a few days or so.  It's like being on zyprexa killed my ability to sleep well. I've tried to explain to my doctor several times and quit trying because they think i'm just crazy lol

 

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

 

4 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

 

[morgana]

im in the same boat...can not sleep, its hell!.....they use lack of sleep as a torture in some countries...maybe thats what docs decided to do to its own people just for fun....so we stay dependant on their drugs....lol

[Altostrata]

When did the sleep problems start?

 

Need to know how you feel before and after taking each dose. Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

[stevenb]

On 10/4/2020 at 5:15 PM, Altostrata said:

When did the sleep problems start?

 

Need to know how you feel before and after taking each dose. Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right. This can show if your symptoms are adverse effects from one of your drugs.

Thinking back I think my sleep problems started a little after I made the cut to 1/2. I couldn't see as I was going through it but after a little time has passed I think I can see the link of sleep problems and withdrawal. Crazy!  I was starting to do well on 3/4's no problems sleeping or anything I think that's why I felt confident enough to make another cut. That's when all hell broke loose lol.

[stevenb]

On 10/4/2020 at 12:39 AM, morgana said:

im in the same boat...can not sleep, its hell!.....they use lack of sleep as a torture in some countries...maybe thats what docs decided to do to its own people just for fun....so we stay dependant on their drugs....lol

Yes it's terrible. Sleep has always been my biggest issue on these meds

[morgana]

I remember someone saying on youtube, suggesting switching from zyprexa to sequel or respierodole, i cant remember which one but i have been on it in the past and it really knocks you out within 10mins of taking it, however i really dont want to switch from one anti pschotic to another as i would still need to eventually get off that and i am sure reducing that, i would still have problems with sleep again, also i heard depoke or something is something i could switch to also as it helps with sleep, mood and anxiety however than how difficult will it be to get off that!  I guess staying with the devil you know is sometimes better, but zyprexa is sooo ******* hard.........

[Altostrata]

On 10/5/2020 at 9:08 PM, stevenb said:

Thinking back I think my sleep problems started a little after I made the cut to 1/2. I couldn't see as I was going through it but after a little time has passed I think I can see the link of sleep problems and withdrawal. Crazy!  I was starting to do well on 3/4's no problems sleeping or anything I think that's why I felt confident enough to make another cut. That's when all hell broke loose lol.

 

You have withdrawal-induced insomnia. Do you want to continue to cope with it?

 

How much of everything are you taking now, at what times of day?

[stevenb]

So i've got another question... I'm trying to taper the trazodone but am having some trouble. I tried lowering it by just a tiny bit on the 9th day when I take it and couldn't do it. Should I take it more frequently but at a lower dose or am I doing something wrong? I'm worried if I take it everyday I might get more addicted but that at least leaves me room to lower the dosage. Also when I take it daily it does the opposite of help me sleep and keeps me up I think.

[ChessieCat]

10 hours ago, stevenb said:

So i've got another question

 

Before we can assist you further we need you to answer Alto's question:

 

On 10/8/2020 at 5:41 AM, Altostrata said:

 

How much of everything are you taking now, at what times of day?

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by ChessieCat

[stevenb]

On 10/15/2020 at 2:52 PM, ChessieCat said:

 

Before we can assist you further we need you to answer Alto's question:

 

 

 

I'm taking 15mg zyprexa, 20mg citalopram (having to reinstate full dose is part of my tapering process apperantly, just the way it's been for me). And i'm taking 75% of trazodone so that's 37.5mg

 

Ever since taking trazodone everyday at a reduced dose I feel worse than I can remember ever feeling it sucks. I don't want to have to take everyday if I don't have to.

[ChessieCat]

On 10/8/2020 at 5:41 AM, Altostrata said:

 

How much of everything are you taking now, at what times of day?

 

 

[stevenb]

9 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Citalopram in morning around 8 am  zyprexa and trazodone 8pm

[stevenb]

I guess i'm just gonna stop taking it. I can't possibley take anymore of it I feel way too bad. Maybe it will be easier for me to quit when I get off the citalopram and zyprexa as I would probably be able to sleep better.

 

As for withdrawal, the only thing I noticed was my sleep schedule being messed up. I slept through the day for a while but it's getting back to normal while i've been on a full dose. I don't know if i'm in the right forums lol most my problems don't come from withdrawal but from being on the medication in the first place

[Altostrata]

23 hours ago, stevenb said:

I slept through the day for a while but it's getting back to normal while i've been on a full dose.

 

Do you mean your sleep improved after you went back to 20mg citalopram? How long have you been taking 20mg citalopram again?

 

That indicates the sleep problem was a withdrawal symptom from citalopram.

 

How did you feel funny after your trazodone reduction?

 

Which drugs are you taking EVERY DAY and which occasionally, with their dosages?

 

You have had to reinstate your drugs after you attempt to reduce them because you change more than one drug at a time and you cut them too drastically. We advise changing only one drug at a time so you can tell where your symptoms are coming from. You also take them irregularly. This tends to backfire with psychotropics.

 

Please put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php
and copy and paste the results or a link to them in this topic.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Altostrata
added question

[stevenb]

On 10/19/2020 at 3:35 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Do you mean your sleep improved after you went back to 20mg citalopram? How long have you been taking 20mg citalopram again?

 

That indicates the sleep problem was a withdrawal symptom from citalopram.

It improved maybe 2-3 days later, it's hard to remember how long I took 20mg again my guess is maybe 5 days.

 

On 10/19/2020 at 3:35 PM, Altostrata said:

 

How did you feel funny after your trazodone reduction?

I had nightmares and woke up throughout the night feeling really weird. I don't know if it's cause I reduced, I think it's cause I took it more frequently. I've been thinking and i'm not sure that taking it ever 9 days necisarilly made me "addicted" or dependant on it. 

 

On 10/19/2020 at 3:35 PM, Altostrata said:

 

Which drugs are you taking EVERY DAY and which occasionally, with their dosages?

 

You have had to reinstate your drugs after you attempt to reduce them because you change more than one drug at a time and you cut them too drastically. We advise changing only one drug at a time so you can tell where your symptoms are coming from. You also take them irregularly. This tends to backfire with psychotropics.

After taking 20mg citalopram and 15mg zyprexa for about the 5 or so days I had this feeling of intolerance... I simply didn't want to take them anymore and hid them from myself that same night (oct 20th 2020) (out of reach but not disposed of or anything like that)

 

I'm totally fine with dealing with withdrawal symptoms rather then taking pills i really don't wanna take. I feel like the real healing is only gonna begin once i'm either on a really low dose or none at all, mainly my sleep

I can remember a time when I tried to quit a year and a half earlier I think and didn't have the same sleeping problems I do now, so I know for a fact that taking them has impaired my brain in ways that affect sleep

[ChessieCat]

12 minutes ago, stevenb said:

I had nightmares and woke up throughout the night feeling really weird. I don't know if it's cause I reduced, I think it's cause I took it more frequently. I've been thinking and i'm not sure that taking it ever 9 days necisarilly made me "addicted" or dependant on it. 

 

Regarding trazodone.  What does were you taking every 9-10 days?  What dose did you start taking every day?

 

 

Alto requested drug interaction report for the drugs you are currently taking.  Please follow these instructions:

 

On 10/20/2020 at 8:35 AM, Altostrata said:

Please put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php
and copy and paste the results or a link to them in this topic.

 

[ChessieCat]

On 10/20/2020 at 8:35 AM, Altostrata said:

Which drugs are you taking EVERY DAY and which occasionally, with their dosages?

 

We need the answer to this question too.  Please carefully read the responses which the mods give and reply to their questions.

 

SA is a  busy forum with lots of members needing assistance.  It gets very tiring and frustrating for the mods when they have to continually ask for the information they need to try to help you.

[stevenb]

12 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

Regarding trazodone.  What does were you taking every 9-10 days?  What dose did you start taking every day?

50mg. I started 37.5mg for 2 days and I had to stop.

 

12 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

Alto requested drug interaction report for the drugs you are currently taking.  Please follow these instructions:

Using OLANZapine together with citalopram can increase the risk of an irregular heart rhythm that may be serious and potentially life-threatening, although it is a relatively rare side effect. You may be more susceptible if you have a heart condition called congenital long QT syndrome, other cardiac diseases, conduction abnormalities, or electrolyte disturbances (for example, magnesium or potassium loss due to severe or prolonged diarrhea or vomiting). Talk to your doctor if you have any questions or concerns. Your doctor may already be aware of the risks, but has determined that this is the best course of treatment for you and has taken appropriate precautions and is monitoring you closely for any potential complications. You should seek immediate medical attention if you develop sudden dizziness, lightheadedness, fainting, shortness of breath, or heart palpitations during treatment with these medications, whether together or alone. It is important to tell your doctor about all other medications you use, including vitamins and herbs. Do not stop using any medications without first talking to your doctor.

 

 

OLANZapine  food

Applies to: Zyprexa (olanzapine)

Alcohol can increase the nervous system side effects of OLANZapine such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience impairment in thinking and judgment. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with OLANZapine. Do not use more than the recommended dose of OLANZapine, and avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medication affects you. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist if you have any questions or concerns.

 

citalopram  food

Applies to: citalopram

Alcohol can increase the nervous system side effects of citalopram such as dizziness, drowsiness, and difficulty concentrating. Some people may also experience impairment in thinking and judgment. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with citalopram. Do not use more than the recommended dose of citalopram, and avoid activities requiring mental alertness such as driving or operating hazardous machinery until you know how the medication affects you. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist if you have any questions or concerns.

 

10 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

SA is a  busy forum with lots of members needing assistance.  It gets very tiring and frustrating for the mods when they have to continually ask for the information they need to try to help you.

Sorry I'll try and update my med history signature and whatnot. Not really asking for assistance with anything just updating 😃

[ChessieCat]

On 10/20/2020 at 8:35 AM, Altostrata said:

 

Which drugs are you taking EVERY DAY and which occasionally, with their dosages?

 

 

You still haven't answered this question.

 

[stevenb]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

You still haven't answered this question.

 

2 hours ago, stevenb said:

After taking 20mg citalopram and 15mg zyprexa for about the 5 or so days I had this feeling of intolerance... I simply didn't want to take them anymore and hid them from myself that same night (oct 20th 2020) 

0mg citalopram

0mg zyprexa

0mg trazodone

[ChessieCat]

Thank you.

[Altostrata]

What are your current symptoms that you attribute to going off the drugs? Are they better or worse any times of day?

[Hopela]

"October 21st - 0mg citalopram, 0mg zyprexa,  "

 

StevenB, if you just jumped from 7.5 mg to 0 mg zyprexa you may be in a situation where you can save yourself years of severe insomnia and possibly many other long term problems by doing the right thing. You've already done a 50% cut that gave you insomnia. A 100% cut is many times worse. Going back up in dosage after several days or a few weeks of "fighting the withdrawal" does not necessarily get you your ability to sleep back. The damage is then done and recovery can take years if you can endure it and sustain your livelihood with the possibly debilitating damages you might have contracted. My recomendation is to go back up now when it's only been one day at 0mg and then to taper slowly. These chemicals are not safe be on but even more damaging to quit abruptly. Quitting multiple chemicals at the same time is even worse. Sure we're all different and some people survive car crasches but why take the risk.

 

To my mind springs members Poet Jester and Hell for cautionary experiences that come from similar cold turkies to what you would/could have if not reinstating quickly.

[morgana]

i agree, you wont be able to sleep and you will go back begging your doctor for zyprexa, because thats what i did years ago, i went cold turkey off zyprexa after 10 days without sleep i contacted Mental health after hours number as i had no scripts, and said look i do not have any zyprexa, i really need some bad....they came to see me, gave me a enough just until i could could get more...i slept like a baby. that night..i realised than i was never going to get off it and there was no point trying again....and so i continued taking 10mg zyprexa and 40 ml of anti depressent for the next 19 years with no questions, it had defeated me...and realised i was never going to get off it, as i needed to sleep!

 

it wasnt until oct 2017 that i had had enoough again, i read about slow tapering, Dr Breggin book, and as i have taken it slowly i have reduced it down to only now taking 1/4 of what i was taking...i have found, i now no longer have hallucinations, sure i have other problems due to it, but i am going in the right direction....yes my sleep is extremely poor, but i have now been on 2.5mg for 6 months now, and will sit there for another 6 months and hope my sleep gets alittle better....only time will tell...steven i understand how much you hate being on this ****, but you need to understand their is no other way...sorry...please listen to the moderators...

[hayduke]

Hi stevenb,

 

I just logged on this late to post in my own thread that I missed my 0.5mg dose tonight, just fell asleep.

 

0115:  wake and look at the clock

0140:  turn on the lights and decide to read.  wide awake

0150:  realise I'd missed my dose.  i'm preparing it now.

 

I normally average 6-8 hrs sleep a night during my taper.  Usually the lower end after a cut and the higher end when holding.

 

I'm not personally aware of anyone walking away safely from olanzapine after a cold turkey yet.  Staying on and tapering is probably uncomfortable, but well managed, I don't think it holds a candle to what a full blown CT will put you through.

 

I agree with hopela and morgana, in your shoes I would reinstate now before that option also becomes risky.

 

I would stick to that dose until I felt steady, and start planning a gradual taper for then. 

 

Making big changes in the amounts suddenly is probably why you've been feeling so miserable lately.

 

All the best mate

 

 

[Hopela]

How are you doing stevenb?

[stevenb]

Stevenb here.

 

I wasn't able to go cold turkey. I also feel like I hit a wall tapering after 3 months. May try and take it slower if I can or maybe even a break. Getting a lot of withdrawal symptoms, pretty much anything you can think of

[ChessieCat]

Please update your drug signature with the dates and drug/dose changes since 21st October.

[stevenb]

November 1st I had to go back up to full dose. I tried once since then to go back down to half and it went pretty badly. This ever happen to anyone else? 

[ChessieCat]

5 minutes ago, stevenb said:

November 1st I had to go back up to full dose. I tried once since then to go back down to half and it went pretty badly. This ever happen to anyone else? 

 

Please add these details to your signature.  You do not need to add full or half dose just the mg

[ChessieCat]

In order to assess your situation we need 3 consecutive days of symptoms notes.  Please post a 24 hour period in one go.

 

The following explains why this is needed and what is required:

 

  

On 9/28/2016 at 4:49 AM, Altostrata said:

 

Keep notes on paper about your daily symptom pattern and drug dosing

 

Are your symptoms worse at any particular times of day? A symptom pattern that occurs regularly over several days could mean the symptoms are from withdrawal, other adverse effects of drugs, or something else you do on a daily schedule.

 

In the course of discussion in your Introductions forum topic, you may be asked to keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern, including when you take your drugs, their dosages, and any symptoms. We ask this because there may be something we can do to reduce the symptoms.

 

What we need to see for every single day over several days is what symptoms you get before and after you take your drugs. If you're not taking any drugs and have withdrawal symptoms, we still need to see your symptom pattern throughout the day:

 

The time of day, dosage, and severity of symptoms are essential information. Include

 

- Time and dosage for all drugs taken throughout the day, psychiatric and non-psychiatric.

- Following each dose, note any symptoms. If you are having a reaction to the drug, it may take hours for a symptom to show up -- that's why we ask you to keep notes all day long.

- If you're not taking any drugs, your symptoms throughout the day.

- Your sleep pattern. Since so many drugs disturb sleep, if you find you're waking in the middle of the night, it could be from a drug you took earlier in the evening. If you're not taking any drugs, there may be ways you can improve your sleep.

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, looking something like this:
 

Example:

DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

An appointments diary is perfect for this and can be bought at stationery stores. They have a page for each day with times for appointments which can be filled in with doses, symptoms etc as shown above. Or, you can copy and paste from a cell phone app -- but make sure the result is easily readable.

 

Please do not use spreadsheets, they are difficult to read online and some of us don't have Microsoft Excel to look at them.  You may link to a Google Doc or spreadsheet if you wish.

 

 

[morgana]

stevenb, sit on it for a while get stable, do not go cold turkey, as you will not sleep and your pyschotic symptoms will get worse i know i have been there...if you do decide to taper again reduce no more than 10% at a time and listen to the moderators, you will not get anywhere fast by reducing it fast....psch doctors will just keep you on more drugs until to appear to be doing well...

[ChessieCat]

Now is not the time to be tapering.

 

And you should only be changing one drug at a time.

 

Edited November 23, 2020 by ChessieCat