stevenb: need advice on tapering Zyprexa and citalopram

[stevenb]

Something unexpected and awesome happened. I stopped taking them like I sometimes do to try and see if I can go without and i've gone 4 days now without and my sleep has been perfect so far. Even better then when i'm on the medication, i've been falling asleep 8-10pm (usually don't fall asleep till 2-4am) and waking up at 6-8am.

 

Don't know if i'm through the woods yet but just wanted to share the proof of progress =D

[stevenb]

So since i've been tapering now for 9 months I don't really consider me going off cold turkey but yeah, really seeing at the very least progress. I'm going on 6 days without and my sleep schedule is kinda messed up but I do sleep 8 hours a day. My biggest symptom wich I started feeling on the 23rd is anxiety. This is the one that usually drives me back to the medication but I feel like I can outlast it so I may try this.

 

Oh and I did quit trazodone successfully I do believe. Last dose was on 3/10. No insomnia or anything like that since.

[stevenb]

I'm having issues on the meds that are making the option of going back on out of the question.

Since im able to sleep so far does that mean i'm good or can it get worse further down the road? 

[stevenb]

Hello, first off sorry if i'm asking dumb questions and stuff. I really don't want to spread misinformation or anything it's just that as my name implies i'm kinda broken lol. My 'journey' with medication was not at all a pleasant one. The whole few years I was on them I wanted to quit them first chance I got but never could. My cognitive funtion was also gone right off the bat. Probably because of how hard I was on my body with weightlifting and such wich was my main hobby, and to my later diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder, an obsession in the end. I knew I broke myself just didn't know how to fix it. My first hospital visit I was prescribed seroquel, zyprexa and something else I don't remember. 2 weeks later I got the feeling that it was making me worse and flushed it and regretted it right after. At my follow-up appointment they sent me home no refills and I ended up in the hospital again a few more times. I had a little bit of life in me while I was on the seroquel but after I flushed them the remaining functionality I had went away.

 

I was on Wellbutrin 200mg daily I think for about a year and half and cold turkey'd that before I ever knew anything about tapering and been off for over a year now. Trazodone 50mg as needed for a year then tapered off in 5 months been off for almost 3 months now. And was on Zyprexa 15mg and Citalopram 20mg from late 2017-August 2020 then tapered both too fast down to 0 over 9 months where I ended up in hospital and was prescribed 5mg zyprexa and 20mg citalopram with a new diagnosis of Major Depressive Disorder and Schizoaffective Disorder (chronic). Also they referred me to a psychiatrist who i'm waiting to hear back from for an appointment. 

 

It kinda sucks to be back up to 20mg citalopram because I was trying so hard to reduce it, would be great to get an opinion on that. Since I have a hard time being on a full dose of anything it's hard for me to tell if I really shouldn't be on it or I should and it's just uncomfortable. Should I just leave it until I can talk to someone? Thanks for reading.

 

[stevenb]

Was doing kinda fine until today (5th day on 20mg). Musci all sounds the same, feel very irritable and like I just wanna reduce it but I haven't yet.

[Altostrata]

Merged member's multiple accounts.

 

@stevenb what are the issues you're having? How do you feel now?

[stevenb]

Sorry thread is all messy now from other accounts.

 

But yeah currently 5mg zyprexa, 20mg citalopram. I wanna drop the citalopram by maybe half, not too high or low but I don't know. Is there any harm in holding 20mg? 

 

Feeling anxious, irritable, sweating a lot and kinda depressed since. 

 

[Altostrata]

Have you also been taking steroids?

 

For what symptoms did you restart 5mg Zyprexa and 20mg citalopram? On April 24, you said you were sleeping okay. How are you sleeping now?

[stevenb]

Have fallen down the rabbit hole of rapid tapering. Not sure if my Citalopram 20mg of 4 years now has started to lose it's effect or i'm just kindled from all my cold turkey attempts but I got convinced I needed to try switching my meds.. Psychiatrist agreed to switch the antidepressant. 8/20 I started Sertraline 100mg and have been going back and forth a lot. In the past 3 weeks i've taken Sertraline maybe 2 weeks out of those?

 

I'm really lost, not sure if I should stay on citalopram or go through with the switch but i'm really scared on the Sertraline. Can I stop it cold turkey or should I try and taper it first? Is 2-3 weeks long enough to get dependent on it? Also should I start the Citalopram again now or wait?

Edited September 16, 2021 by stevenb

[stevenb]

I reinstated Citalopram and tossed the sertraline. Will hope I don't get any withdrawals too severe, I know that was stupid but I panicked. 

[getofflex]

Hello, Samson67.  This is a site for people who want to get off of psychiatric medications.  I'm not sure what your intention is.  Are you trying to get off the drug, or just switch to a different drug?  I am glad that you reinstated the Citalopram and tossed the sertraline. We do not suggest alternating 2 different psych meds - not sure what you meant by "going back and forth a lot".    

[stevenb]

Thanks lex, what I meant is I would switch from sertraline to citalopram, then back to sertraline and so on. Do not want to switch anymore.

I am tryin to get off Citalopram and Zyprexa at the moment. Currently had to reinstate my standard dose (20mg citalopram, 15mg zyprexa) I tried reinstating low but it was a no go.

 

My current symptoms are - PGAD, Akathisia(restlessness) and insomnia.

[getofflex]

10 hours ago, Samson67 said:

Thanks lex, what I meant is I would switch from sertraline to citalopram, then back to sertraline and so on. Do not want to switch anymore

I'm glad you are not switching anymore.  We do not recommend that.  What was your reason for doing that?  

 

Here is a link that will help you to decide what drug to taper first.  But don't do any changes to your drugs yet, until we see your drug sig.  You should stay on your current drug regimen for at least several months (3 - 6) until you fully stabilize before tapering.  Be sure and take the same doses at the same time each day.  Because you've done multiple cold turkeys and switching around from citalopram to sertraline, your nervous system is probably very sensitized and unstable at this point. 

 

Which Drug to Taper First

 

I need to know when you reinstated.  Therefore, can you please give us specific information about your drug history for all drugs you are on and have been on, especially for the past 18-24 months?  It would be especially helpful to have the details of your drugs in a concise list (no symptoms), only drug names, specific dates (as best you can say for example early March if you don't recall the day) and dosages of each medication decrease or increase.  Please read the link below for instructions.  This will allow us to give you the best guidance.  

 

How to List Drug History in Signature

 

Here is some information about how these drugs actually work.

 

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

 

This helps you understand what withdrawal syndrome is: 

 

 Video on Recovery from Psych Drugs

 

What is Happening in Your Brain

 

 

Tapering is best done extremely slowly, and we generally taper by 10% of the current dose no more than once every 4 weeks, so that the taper becomes exponentially smaller.

 

 Why Taper by 10% of my Dosage  

 

 

Also, as we are recovering, we suggest keeping things slow, simple, and stable. 

 

Keep it Simple, Slow, and Stable

 

Considerations About Stability - Stop Jumping Around

 

 

Here are some techniques to cope with symptoms: 

 

Non Drug Ways to Cope with Withdrawal Symptoms

 

 

We don't suggest many supplements, but 2 that many of us find helpful are magnesium and omega-3 fish oil. Here are the links for info about those. It is suggested to add one at a time, and start with a low dose to see how it affects you. 

Magnesium

 

Omega 3 Fish Oil

 

I've given you quite a bit of information here.  I know it will take time to go through and read, but if you do, you will be well prepared to do a taper in the future.  

Edited September 18, 2021 by getofflex

[Altostrata]

Merged yet another of @stevenb's accounts, this time Samson67.

 

Stevenb, we don't help people switch drugs, that's your doctor's job.

 

11 hours ago, stevenb said:

Thanks lex, what I meant is I would switch from sertraline to citalopram, then back to sertraline and so on. Do not want to switch anymore.

I am tryin to get off Citalopram and Zyprexa at the moment. Currently had to reinstate my standard dose (20mg citalopram, 15mg zyprexa) I tried reinstating low but it was a no go.

 

My current symptoms are - PGAD, Akathisia(restlessness) and insomnia.

 

Fallout from random drug switches is definitely not in our charter. 

 

Please let us know when you would like peer support for tapering.

[stevenb]

Thnks Alto, will do. Right now i'm just living in the now. I've started exercising smarter and focusing on taking them regularly. Sleep is also improving as are other symptoms.

[stevenb]

And just when I think things are going good, I get hit with that fatigue/not well rested feeling again. It's literally the worst feeling in the world. I feel so trapped when it happens cause it's not like I can even do anything about it.

 

Any advice appreciated. 

[stevenb]

I read the windows and waves thread in symptoms forum. Maybe this is a wave?

[Altostrata]

@stevenb your psychiatrist is directing your current drug regimen? You need to ask your psychiatrist about potential adverse drug reactions. We're not going to be unpaid adjunct treatment managers.

[stevenb]

So it's not a wave? Will redirect my concerns then, thank you.

[stevenb]

I looked at the links posted at the beginning of thread on how to taper and it's all very overwhelming and confusing to me. Would it be at all possible to taper off using a pill cutter or should I maybe try a pill grinder/digital scale? Would that be a possible tapering method for citalopram/zyprexa?

 

Feel so stuck at the moment... Maybe i'm just doomed to stay on them forever? Getting off seems to be beyond my comprehension. =\

 

I've tried holding before too. Doesn't work for me. After a year of tapering, albeit rapid, I should still be able to hold at at least 75% of the original dose right? Except I can't. 

 

[ChessieCat]

Please read this post about tapering and what is involved:

 

On 8/22/2016 at 12:15 PM, scallywag said:

 

What’s involved in reducing my dose?
 
To taper safely, we suggest reducing dose by no more than 10% of your current dose. This means you’ll be taking dosages that aren’t available as a standard tablet or capsule from manufacturers.
 
The tasks of tapering are primarily

• measuring non-standard dosage
• taking doses regularly
• monitoring one's dosing and symptoms
• adjusting the taper according to symptoms (increase dosage, decrease decrements, taper more slowly, or taper faster)

 

Some people are willing and able to pay to have their doses made at a compounding pharmacy. Others create their non-standard doses on their own by either

• How to cut up tablets or pills (using a pill cutter)
• Using a digital scale to measure doses
• Making a liquid from a tablet or capsules
• Counting beads

These activities require painstaking focus and attention, and can be annoying, frustrating, and/or tedious.

 

 

Citalopram can be made into a liquid.  See post #1 of this topic:

 

tips-for-tapering-off-celexa-citalopra

 

Post #1 of this topic explains how to get Zyprexa doses:

 

tips-for-tapering-off-zyprexa-olanzapine

 

Many members weigh their tablets using the Gemini 20 scale.  Some members crush some tablets into powder using a pill crusher or between 2 spoons and then take some powder from the "stockpile".

 

Look for posts by BrassMonkey in this topic.  He weighed his dose for most of his Paxil taper:

 

using-a-scale-to-weigh-and-measure-doses

 

This topic has information about how to make your own liquid:

 

how-to-make-a-liquid-from-tablets-or-capsules

 

[stevenb]

Would this be a scale that could work for tapering pills?

Amazon.com: Smart Weigh GEM20 High Precision Digital Milligram Jewelry Scale, 20 x 0.001 Gram, Reloading, Jewelry and Gems Scale, Calibration Weights and Tweezers Included: Digital Kitchen Scales: Home & Kitchen

 

If not, links to one would be awesome, thanks.

[hayduke]

On 10/4/2021 at 9:26 AM, stevenb said:

I've tried holding before too. Doesn't work for me. After a year of tapering, albeit rapid, I should still be able to hold at at least 75% of the original dose right? Except I can't. 

 

That's accounted for by the shock of CT and the second drug in play.  You want to keep any changes gradual, and to quote a wise forum member whose name I've sadly forgot, "any reason you can think of to hold is a good one".

 

I always found a liquid prep way easier, YMMV as always

[hayduke]

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/2364-the-slowness-of-slow-tapers-micro-taper/

[ChessieCat]

1 hour ago, stevenb said:

Would this be a scale that could work for tapering pills?

 

Many members of SA use the Gemini 20 scale.  But from this post it looks like the one you have linked is very similar:

 

 

[stevenb]

I ended up at hospital, told them what I was on and that me and psychiatrist were attempting a switch, wich is I think what ended me up there in the first place. Anyhow, they told me that I needed to switch, wich in a way I agree, I tried the tapering protocols this site offers and I just could not follow them.

 

But I didn't get much time to switch. I did half doses of zyprexa for a week then stopped. Have not been able to sleep well at all lately since I stopped the zyprexa (on rexulti now). Anyways, my question is do you think I will be able to sleep after some sort of stabalization happens? Really scared right now, Zyprexa is truly evil.

[hayduke]

Jeez.  Never heard of "rexulti" who the hell gets paid to come up with these ugly weird marketting brand names and don't they have anything better to do with their lives.

 

I will try and read up on it next week.

 

Do you think more changing and chopping what already has you on edge would help?  You've just disrupted your body's work towards adapting to where you were holding with more complex neurological changes to catch up with.

[stevenb]

It was a nasty med, much like abilify. Gave me some real strong inner restlessness. And of course the switch didn't work and I ended up back on the original ones. I guess I shouldn't have been listening to my psychiatrist, I just assume these paid professionals know what they are doing but they really don't.

 

The good news is I get paid soon so I can finally order that digital scale and whatever other tools I might need in the future for tapering.

[ChessieCat]

10 minutes ago, stevenb said:

I guess I shouldn't have been listening to my psychiatrist, I just assume these paid professionals know what they are doing but they really don't.

 

This is the reason why SA and other similar sites exist.

 

The medical profession gets their information about drugs from the pharmaceutical companies.  And of course pharmaceutical companies have shareholders and ... well, enough said!

[stevenb]

What a nightmare this switch has been. My insomnia is getting worse. I'm worrying non-stop now as well and just very unsure about how to proceed.

[ChessieCat]

Q:  Have you been drinking alcohol?

 

Q:  Have you been taking any supplements or other drugs, eg antibiotics?

 

Q:  Do you stop using your computer / phone during the early evening?

 

Q:  Is your room darkened?

 

Sleep problems - that awful withdrawal insomnia

[stevenb]

Q:  Have you been drinking alcohol?

 

Yes, I only had a few beers but I drank quite a few times in a week.

 

Q:  Have you been taking any supplements or other drugs, eg antibiotics?

 

No

 

Q:  Do you stop using your computer / phone during the early evening?

 

Recently no, my insomnia is really bad.

 

Q:  Is your room darkened?

 

No

 

I'm sorry guys I really think i'm too far gone at this point, I feel i'm giving up.

 

My only option at this point is to power through it, or seek help. And have ANOTHER med change. And risk more relapse. Don't seem worth it.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by ChessieCat
extracted response from quote and added spacing

[ChessieCat]

50 minutes ago, stevenb said:

Yes, I only had a few beers but I drank quite a few times in a week.

 

This can make things worse.  Sometimes taking too much sedating drugs the body fights back to try to keep you awake to keep you alive.  It is called a paradoxical reaction.  That is it works the opposite effect to what it usually does.

 

Making a few simple changes, like stopping using computer/phone too close to bed time, darkening your room or wearing a sleep mask and other things in the insomnia topic can sometimes help.

 

I think it would be better to try non drug techniques to try to help reduce the insomnia.

 

On 11/27/2021 at 11:25 PM, stevenb said:

I did half doses of zyprexa for a week then stopped. Have not been able to sleep well at all lately since I stopped the zyprexa (on rexulti now).

 

Please update your drug signature with the new drug changes.

 

 

 

 

[stevenb]

4 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

I think it would be better to try non drug techniques to try to help reduce the insomnia.

 

You mean no meds? Or no supplements?

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by ChessieCat
removed blank quote

[ChessieCat]

I mean not changing your drugs again and trying non drug techniques to try to help with the insomnia.

 

And not drinking alcohol.  Also, if you are drinking coffee or other beverages containing caffeine (eg cola and energy drinks), to gradually reduce those.

 

Sometimes just making a few changes can help things.  But it means you have to make the effort, and not rely on a drug to fix things.

 

In only a 4 to 5 year period you have made a lot of drug and dose changes (including many cold turkeys as stated in your drug signature).  The brain likes consistency.  And the effect of all those changes you have made is cumulative.

[stevenb]

I'm very numb at this point, have had a hard time with the world for a while now. Would you be surprised if I said I got rid of the rexulti and sertraline earlier in a panick?

 

I really appriciate the responses chessie, you guys are saving lives, wish I would seen that earlier on.