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New Shipko article


bubbles
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Hi everyone

 

An article I just read on MIA: https://www.madinamerica.com/2020/08/ssri-withdrawal-elephant/

 

A sobering read and I'm not sure how I feel about it. It's been longer than ten years that I've been on the drugs; the article suggests I'm therefore at risk of this issue.

 

He says this site is the best source of information, so well done to the mods and Alto.

2005 St John's Wort / 2006-2012 Lexapro 20mg, 2 failed attempts to stop, tapered over 4.5 months in early 2012

January 2013 started Sertraline, over time worked up to 100mg

July 2014 Sertraline dropped from 100mg to 75mg, held for six months, slower tapering until 2019 22 Dec 3.2mg

2020 Sertraline 19 Jan 3.1mg, 26 Jan 3.0mg; 1 Mar 2.9, 7 Mar 2.8, May (some drops here) 24 May 2.5, May 29 2.4, June 21 2.3, June 28 2.2mg,  July 4 2.1mg, July 24 (or maybe a bit before) 2mg, early Nov switched to home made suspension; 29 Nov 1.8mg; approx 25 Dec 1.6mg)

2021 Some time in about Jan/Feb realised my dosing was off and as probably on more like 1.8mg and possible mixing error in making suspension; doses after 10 Feb accurate; 10 Feb 1.6mg; 7 Mar 1.4

 

My thread here at SA: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1775-bubbles/page/17/

CurrentSertraline: 7 Mar 1.4mg / Armour Thyroid / endless allergy meds, erg

 

 

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Yep. Hit about 6 months after I quit the last of my Lexapro. It was sudden, out of the blue and that was when the real withdrawal begin.

But I'm through it and didn't reinstate anything.

September 2014 to July 2015 - 20 mg Lexapro, 30mg Mirtazipine

 

August 2015 to November 2016- 10mg Lexapro, 30 mg Mirtazipine

 

Nov. 2016 to Nov. 2017 - 10mg Lexapro, 3.75 mg Mirtazipine

 

Nov. 2017 to Mach 2018 - 5mg/2.5mg Lexapro, 0mg Mirtazipne

 

Mach 2018 to Dec. 2018 - 0mg Lexapro, 0mg Mirtazipne

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19 minutes ago, MRothbard said:

Yep. Hit about 6 months after I quit the last of my Lexapro. It was sudden, out of the blue and that was when the real withdrawal begin.

But I'm through it and didn't reinstate anything.

 

You tapered over about 3.5 years off two drugs? Do you recall how long the patch of severe symptoms lasted? Do you also recall what your jumping off doses were? Cheers.

 

2005 St John's Wort / 2006-2012 Lexapro 20mg, 2 failed attempts to stop, tapered over 4.5 months in early 2012

January 2013 started Sertraline, over time worked up to 100mg

July 2014 Sertraline dropped from 100mg to 75mg, held for six months, slower tapering until 2019 22 Dec 3.2mg

2020 Sertraline 19 Jan 3.1mg, 26 Jan 3.0mg; 1 Mar 2.9, 7 Mar 2.8, May (some drops here) 24 May 2.5, May 29 2.4, June 21 2.3, June 28 2.2mg,  July 4 2.1mg, July 24 (or maybe a bit before) 2mg, early Nov switched to home made suspension; 29 Nov 1.8mg; approx 25 Dec 1.6mg)

2021 Some time in about Jan/Feb realised my dosing was off and as probably on more like 1.8mg and possible mixing error in making suspension; doses after 10 Feb accurate; 10 Feb 1.6mg; 7 Mar 1.4

 

My thread here at SA: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1775-bubbles/page/17/

CurrentSertraline: 7 Mar 1.4mg / Armour Thyroid / endless allergy meds, erg

 

 

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I think this is a fair, measured article by Dr. Shipko. It must be dreadful for a conscientious doctor to see people struggle going off the drugs.

 

We don't see it often, but we do see people who have a resurgence of what seems like withdrawal syndrome some months after they're clear of the drugs, particularly if they've drunk alcohol, taken antibiotics, had an illness, taken another drug, etc.

 

I have no explanation for this. It's my belief that activity of receptors is germane to only acute withdrawal symptoms in the few weeks after discontinuation, and a lot of withdrawal syndrome is related to adjustments of other systems.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I will have to agree Alto. When I went through what I started to call the Ten Month Wave it had a totally different feel to it.  The anxiety and depression had a much different feel to them then they did during WD. Much more of a system wide aspect. Having read a number of posts by members going through it I get the same feeling about their experiences also.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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I have often thought that there are two stages/types of withdrawal. The early "coarse" WD - the zaps etc, and later WD that can look like relapse/rebound. It seems to be possible to taper slowly enough to avoid the zaps, but that pace doesn't mean avoiding the rest. That's not a truly slow taper, but what many people consider a slow taper, say a few months. I'm hoping, of course, that a truly slow taper over years will avoid both!


 

2005 St John's Wort / 2006-2012 Lexapro 20mg, 2 failed attempts to stop, tapered over 4.5 months in early 2012

January 2013 started Sertraline, over time worked up to 100mg

July 2014 Sertraline dropped from 100mg to 75mg, held for six months, slower tapering until 2019 22 Dec 3.2mg

2020 Sertraline 19 Jan 3.1mg, 26 Jan 3.0mg; 1 Mar 2.9, 7 Mar 2.8, May (some drops here) 24 May 2.5, May 29 2.4, June 21 2.3, June 28 2.2mg,  July 4 2.1mg, July 24 (or maybe a bit before) 2mg, early Nov switched to home made suspension; 29 Nov 1.8mg; approx 25 Dec 1.6mg)

2021 Some time in about Jan/Feb realised my dosing was off and as probably on more like 1.8mg and possible mixing error in making suspension; doses after 10 Feb accurate; 10 Feb 1.6mg; 7 Mar 1.4

 

My thread here at SA: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1775-bubbles/page/17/

CurrentSertraline: 7 Mar 1.4mg / Armour Thyroid / endless allergy meds, erg

 

 

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Quote

There is no way to predict who is going to develop tardive akathisia. It does not result, as most people think, from tapering too fast. It happens even with very slow tapering. I do not think that anyone who has not already experienced akathisia can realistically be prepared for this possibility through informed consent; it is simply too uncomfortable to be fully imagined in advance. In a conversation with a surgeon, we discussed that if there was an operation, performed on asymptomatic people, that would be health promoting but resulted in severe and possibly long-lasting discomfort in an unknown percentage of patients, it would not be ethical to perform such a procedure. There is an analogy here to medical supervision of SSRI tapering.

 

I like the way Dr. Shipko explains that informed consent is not possible with these drugs. Not only does this remove the justification for continuing to prescribe these drugs based on giving someone informed consent (which rarely, if ever, happens), it also conveys how severe akathisia really is. This is validating for the many of us who've experienced this symptom. 

 

Drug free May 22, 2015 after 30 years of neuroleptics, benzos, z-drugs, so-called "anti"-depressants, and amphetamines 

 

My Success Story:  Shep's Success: "Leaving Plato's Cave"

 

And what is good, Phaedrus, and what is not good — need we ask anyone to tell us these things? ~ Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance


I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice, but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs.

 

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Agreed @Shep, there is no imagining withdrawal or the consequences of these drugs for most people. I tapered without knowing much of anything over a period of 6 months (by necessity, I could barely reduce the dose without becoming dysfunctional), and the results were disastrous. 

Remeron - 2004-2005 (bad withdrawal)

Clonazepam - 2005-2018 (jumped around March)

Olanzapine - 2014- late 2017

Domperidone - 2008-2018

Many drugs in between including Lexapro, other benzos and z-drugs.

Still suffering post-withdrawal from Clonazepam (Klonopin), Olanzapine and Domperidone. 

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On the whole I find the idea of "Informed Consent" to be quite miss leading and when I'm in a mood just another CYA move on the part of the medical profession. Any medication or medical procedure is invasive and disruptive to the body in some manner.  With the vast quantity and variation of human beings and the lack of knowledge of just how these medications and procedures truly affect the body it is impossible to predict how any one person will react to any medication or procedure. All we can hope for is that the benefits will outweigh the side effects and we can put up with the results, while saying "they did the best they could".

 

Case in point. How many millions of gall bladder have been performed. It's a routine operation with very few problems. Who could have told me that I would have been in severe pain for 7 years after having two operations and three hospitalizations to correct a routine procedure performed by an expert in the field. And that I'd still be in pain from it 35 years later? So how can we possibly guess what is going to happen after a person has had their bodily systems scrambled by drugs for years and stops taking them? Especially when no one even knows how those drugs work.

 

BTW I'm in a mood ATM.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Final Dose 0.016mg.     Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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I don't think I've ever been given enough information for informed consent. Not just ADs, everything.

2005 St John's Wort / 2006-2012 Lexapro 20mg, 2 failed attempts to stop, tapered over 4.5 months in early 2012

January 2013 started Sertraline, over time worked up to 100mg

July 2014 Sertraline dropped from 100mg to 75mg, held for six months, slower tapering until 2019 22 Dec 3.2mg

2020 Sertraline 19 Jan 3.1mg, 26 Jan 3.0mg; 1 Mar 2.9, 7 Mar 2.8, May (some drops here) 24 May 2.5, May 29 2.4, June 21 2.3, June 28 2.2mg,  July 4 2.1mg, July 24 (or maybe a bit before) 2mg, early Nov switched to home made suspension; 29 Nov 1.8mg; approx 25 Dec 1.6mg)

2021 Some time in about Jan/Feb realised my dosing was off and as probably on more like 1.8mg and possible mixing error in making suspension; doses after 10 Feb accurate; 10 Feb 1.6mg; 7 Mar 1.4

 

My thread here at SA: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/1775-bubbles/page/17/

CurrentSertraline: 7 Mar 1.4mg / Armour Thyroid / endless allergy meds, erg

 

 

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I know how you feel bubbles.  Since joining SA, I've been giving the doctors information/suggestions and not just regarding psychiatric drugs either.

 MISSION ACCOMPLISHED:    13 November 2021 -  0mg Pristiq      

Woohoo!!!  Finally off Pristiq   

ADs since ~1992:  25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq:  50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity)  Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021   LAST DOSE 0.0025mg

My full tapering program     My Intro (goes to my tapering graph)    My website

PLEASE NOTE:  I am not a medical professional.  I provide information and make suggestions.  I do not provide tapering advice via PM.  Please post questions in your Introduction topic.  Please do not tag me for any reason.  I am an unpaid volunteer and assist members if I am able to and when I have the time.  Thank you for your understanding.

Mid Nov 2021 changed to low carb diet due to diabetes & cholesterol.  Lost 1/16 body weight, BP has reduced a lot. 

Links to my exercises and weights.  I also do 3 x 5.5 min with HIIT on exercise bike with 20 secs/min as fast as I can cycle.

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i do not personally see any benefit of informed consent, in any procedure, especially not in mental health field.

 

i do not see how i was supposed to imagine what kind of pain i was going to experience when i can not even describe it to few people who are interested to hear about it...

 

 

3/2012 - sertralin 50 mg, no major side effects

1/2014 - ct sertralin 50 mg (tappered 3 weeks as doctor ordered)

7/2014 - back to sertalin 50 mg, no issues

4/2016 - ct sertralin 50 mg (tappered 3 weeks, my decision)

12/2016 - back to sertalin, major side effects from the first pill and the begginning of hell

2/2017 - mirtazepine 15 mg added for insomnia

6/2017 - stopped sertralin (2 months tapper)

9/2017 - stopped mirtazepine (3 weeks taper)

waves and windows

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  • 6 months later...

I noticed in previous articles that Dr. Shipko discusses tardive akathisia but notes that it presents differently from the traditional movement disorder.   Is the akathisia that he speaks of actually the CNS alerting system being set of? 

 

He also talks about reinstatement bringing people back to baseline faster than if they wait it out.  Is this because the brain will take less time to 'heal' from the alerting response with the drug in their system?

5/28/21 - present - Escitalopram 5.84 mg (from 7.5 to 7.14 to 7.07 to 7 to 6.92 to 5.84)

9/11/21 - present - Claritin 1.4 mg (from .2 to .5 to 1 to 1.3)

History:

2012-2017- Escitalopram 10mg

2017-2020 - Escitalopram 5mg

2019 (July-Nov) - Valium 10mg, every 2-3 days, then stopped

11/1/20 - Stopped Escitalopram 5mg abruptly (crashed January 2021)

1/13/21 - 5/28/21 - Escitalopram 7.5mg (Reinstated at 2.5, to 5, to 10, to 7.5)

1/16/21 - 2/4/21 - Ativan .5 - Took 13.5 pills over the course of 22 days and stopped

2/7/21 - 9/17/21  Hydroxyzine - from 50 to 25 to 10 to 5 to 2.5 to 1.6 to .8 then cross-tapered to Claritin and stopped

Supplements:  Daytime - 2000mg fish oil and 2 tablespoons flax oil, 250mg Vitamin C

Nighttime - L-theanine 200mg, 1mg melatonin, magnesium glycinate 400mg.  Sometimes an additional 100mg L-theanine for early morning wake ups.

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@Crochet just trying to touch base with you. how are you feeling now ? are your wd symtoms getting better ? 

2010 citanew 10mg ct after 6 monthes

 

2015 citanew 10mg ct after 5 to 6 monthes

 

April 2020 xanax .25 mg ct after 1 month

 

April 2020 citanew 10mg ct August 2020

 

several wd , insomnia, anxiety, fear, muscle spasm, weakness on left side.

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