morgana: Zyprexa / olanzapine

[morgana]

Hi @NNhope, thanks for the concern about my drinking of alcohol, but i stopped drinking and havnt had a drink since 8th May 2021 and so i went back to practicing sleep hygiene, no junk food, no TV or computer screens after 7.30pm, in bed at 9.30pm, medication taken at same time...boring as this routine, but i always feel better in the long run because of it....i am sorry to hear you also are experiencing Akathesia...it is horrible, it is an inner restlessness, needing to move all the time...i usually walk, i sometimes walk upto 3 hours a day, i never feel completely relaxed, i cannot meditate, as that would mean sitting in the same position for too long...i feel extremely stiff in my body like a piece of wood, laying there on my bed at night, trying to fall into a sleep....its impossible, my body just will not relax into the bed, i do not fall into a deep sleep, i lay there most of night, not thinking, just with a blank mind, empty mind, eyes closed tightly, i will dream thou....i am hopeing in time i will one day be able to fall asleep like before meds....i was always a good sleeper before anti depressants, they caused me to have sleeping problems and then the zyprexa and alcohol knocked me out at night until morning....now as i reduce my zyprexa its very difficult to sleep...however i did sleep quite well last night 7 to 8 hrs sleep, not deep sleep, had very trippy vivid dreams, it felt like i was awake at the same time as dreaming....i find dreaming is better than just laying there all night with a blank mind...i hope for the two of us it will get better, others seem to find it easier so their is hope! and i know over the last couple of years i definatlely feel less anxious, my body does feel less anxious...i must admit...but still there....i think it will just take more time...

[morgana]

thankyou for your thought provoking response....i have been to AA and found it worked for awhile and find it is basically the only thing that does work.(not that i go anymore)...and pain....Controlled drinking is impossible...you have one drink or cigerette and its one of many....i cannot stop...i try just having one glass with a meal...but eventually i want another and another...i became a chain smoker and daily drinker within a week of starting on Zyprexa...it was only until april 2018 i ended up with pancrititis that the pain from drinking made it impossible to drink...so now as much as i would love to have a drink within a couple of weeks i start getting pain.....its one way to stop...i gave up chain smoking 1.5 years ago with champix and reading the Easy Way by Alan Carr, i needed to read alan carr to finally think i had finally had anough and i have..he writes in such away that makes you think you really want to stop and that your not "giving something up" against your will....i am so glad for his book!  I have read stories of people who tend to smoke alot while on AP's...because before zyprexa i had only been a casual smoker and drinker  for 10 years prior with no problems ...strange.....i wonder why!

[NNhope]

@morgana,I hate the feeling of inner restlessness. Hard to just sit and enjoy something like a tv show, when you just keep wanting to move around.

[morgana]

i know @NNhope what you mean....i cannot go to the pictures as i cannot sit through a whole film, even the thought of it scares me...i use to think i couldnt go to the movies because i aways needed a cigerette...but have since stopped smoking and still feel i could not sit through a movie....i have been working since i left school at 15 years old...and i had never been called a work-a-holic...but not realising it...under medication...i became very good at the jobs i were doing which in volved being fast and constantly moving..eg..cleaning, working in an industrial laundry and food service assistant....i was always on the go...never stopping..i was great at washing walls when i had nothing to do at work.(my bosses were always happy with me)..lol...people would call me a work-a-holic...but no i really was not...since Oct 2017 and i have reduced my medication...i no longer feel the need to constantly be moving as much...so i am slowly reverting back to the natural me...which is good...just takes time...i may not be as productive but aleast i am more in touch with my body and can listen to it...NNhope just give yourself time to adjust i think the lower you tapper the restlessness will become less....i have reduced my meds down to a quarter of what i use to be on...and i have become less stressed...i guess the best way to use the restlessness i have found is to do something constructive and volunteer or go for a walk in nature during the day and ...at night, i find i go to bed early these days and get up early, keep active during the day, so at night i am more relaxed...but give it time...how is your sleep?

[NNhope]

@morgana I slept well last night. Woke up actually feeling sleepy. Somedays it feels like I'm not sleeping and just lay there at 8 pm and all of a sudden its 530 am. It's a weird feeling. So your restlessness has improved as you reduce? That's good news. I was worried if I start to taper I would have to deal with it alot more. It's just so uncomfortable. 

[hayduke]

Good sleep is the best @morgana...you're right, it takes time, but it does happen.  It's deeply relieving that so many things I thought or was told were impossible for ages are now busted myths from years ago.  Good on ya 🙂

[morgana]

hey i do not know if anyone else experiences this but i feel my sinuses and ears feel like they are de-congesting....is this just my feeling or is there someone else that also finds they feel this as well...i feel basically lighter ...i gave up smoking nearly 2 years ago..do not know if its because of that or it has something to do with decrease in zyprexa...or my reflexology sessions i have once a month....let me know if anyone naturally feels that their body is  naturally healing...de-congesting is the only way to describe it!  let me know

[hayduke]

That's great @morgana...wonder if it's a histamine related thing.  Rewarding to see symptoms fade away.

[BadMedicine]

Hi @morgana. I’ve never had issues with my sinuses so didn’t notice any effects on those. However I do a lot of sport and last year when I went down to 1.8mg I did notice that I was recovering better after exercise sessions like my body was healing better at lower levels of the drug like you describe. I have read that olanzapine inhibits growth hormone production which is needed for repair and recovery which maybe why we are observing these phenomena at lower doses. Unfortunately I had to re-instate to 2.5mg last year but hoping to get beyond that point now with a much slower, controlled taper. Hope your healing continues.

How are you otherwise. Is your sleep improving?

[morgana]

hi @BadMedicine, i agree with @hayduke that it might be histamine related...i had never had any sinus problems before either, but now i feel any little plant based perfumed substance i get near my skin i get itchy.. also it feels like its coming from my forhead down between my eyes, i also feel less brain fog, memory still not good but more alert and with it!

 

as for sleep, i havnt experienced a deep sleep since i changed to 1/2 n 1/2 in medication...i have had problems with hot sweats keeping me up all night, i had tests done and will find out if it is menopause related or Thyroid related....however last 2 nights have been good....however i feel like i am laying their all night, its hard to tell if i am sleeping or not...i feel i am awake enough that i am aware that i am dreaming what i am thinking...i feel rested in the morning...but during the night i feel i really am not sleeping...i have started "Tapping" it is where you tap on meridan points, since doing that it has really helped me relax, i am thinking of going to see an Emotional Freedom Therapist ie does Tapping to help get over issues..i find it would really help me....

How is your sleep going? i think i read that you are working while you taper....i dont know how you do it if you are? you must be very strong....

 

[BadMedicine]

Sorry your sleep is still not good. You may be getting more sleep than you realise if you feel rested in the morning. I’ve read quite a few instances where people have gone for a sleep study thinking they were only getting a couple of hours when actually they were getting six. I also think that at least resting in bed even if you are not sleeping gives your body a chance to restore itself. There’s nothing like a really good deep sleep though so I hope that returns for you soon. This drug is really hard to get off isn’t it. It’s really good that your brain fog  and levels of alertness are improving. Seeing these positive signs helps us to keep going I think.

 

my sleep is OK. After my first cut it went down to 5-6 hours for a couple of nights but then returned to 8-9 although it was a bit broken. Would wake up at least 3 times in the night.This second 2.5% cut hasn’t really affected my sleep. In fact I slept for 7 solid hours last night and then got about an hour and a half more. I did have some overwhelming fatigue though and my mood has been a little bit too good. Not overtly so but noticeable. I’ve never been manic in my life so I think this may be an effect of unblocking some dopamine receptors which will hopefully resolve in time as I continue with the lower doses. I am working full time which is why I am taking it really slowly so I can (hopefully) remain functional. I don’t know about being strong. There are many times I have locked myself in the toilet because I couldn’t stop myself from crying. I guess I’m stubborn as I refuse to let these drugs completely ruin my life. I already have much less of a social life than I used to.

[morgana]

hi @BadMedicine, its great to hear you are sleeping so well, you must be doing something right...can i ask what it is?  also dont whatever you do let someone tell you, you have manic depression...i too have never been decribed as having it, but a pychologist thought because i wasnt sleeping well and i was sooo happy and felt "alive" she thought i was becoming manic...i never saw her again....when i was on large doses on zyprexa all i could tell someone how i felt was "blah", now i am actually feeling happy to be alive...so just be careful with how people percieve you, they will probally remember you as docile, and slow to react to anything, when you begin to change..and become more animated....they may think its not normal for you....dont let them bring you down by saying something is wrong with you!..OK 

[hayduke]

1 hour ago, morgana said:

dont let them bring you down by saying something is wrong with you!..OK 

 

This is a really good point.  Most of these 'illnesses' are just a mix-and-match of symptoms as perceived by the health professional, anyway.  I got a rather damning (mis)diagnosis for two major symptoms (mood issues and dissociation) that turned out to be widely known as direct consequences of being sexually abused as a child.  It's deeply unfair.  Now I have a diagnosis of Complex PTSD, which fits the evidence and my experience, and can be healed.

 

And pragmatically, establishing a support network when I started my taper when I deliberately told a few close friends and family what I was doing.  This helps a lot, and maybe isn't mentioned enough on the site.  I explained that they were going to see symptoms from time to time, and that they were not to cast these as relapse when they can be accounted for by withdrawal, but to start a conversation with me.

 

Having feedback on their concerns lets you compare notes with your taper.  "You seem really cranky and distracted, you ok?" "Yes I made a 10% cut last week and work has been a bear and my partner is away".  etc.

 

That way you have others who can support you if you do cross paths with an unhelpful health professional.  I was able to find good psychologists who were immediately supportive of my taper, and generally very helpful for me - by that stage I knew what I was looking for from them and would happily have kept looking for a good one if they hadn't been supportive.  Acknowledging @morgana that that might be harder in regional areas, and maybe even consider video calls to somewhere that is up to date and suitable.

 

We found a psychiatrist to add to my support network just in case things got really bad, but they haven't, and I've not needed to meet them or anything - between my friends and my therapist I'm pretty confident I wouldn't end up in a nightmare again if things did get too weird now.

 

Cheers

 

 

[BadMedicine]

@morganaand @hayduke. Thanks for your input. Now I know about withdrawal symptoms and how powerful and profound the hold these drugs have on you is I definitely won’t be seeking any advice from health professionals about my state of mind and won’t let anyone convince me too either. If anything persists longer than I feel is acceptable or I feel like it is getting out of hand I would rather just updose slightly to see if that resolves the problem. When you are getting symptoms that you’ve never had before in my mind it is most likely to be withdrawal. It is because of an adverse effect followed by withdrawal after stopping the offending drug that led to a diagnosis of severe depression when I hadn’t been depressed before I took the drug and led to more drugs being added to my regime and a downhill spiral. 
You are also right olanzapine makes you extremely dull. When you start being more vital again as the dose goes down it may in fact be normal mood returning but you are so used to being subdued that it feels excessive and looks excessive to other people.

 

in terms of what I am doing in my taper to preserve sleep I don’t think I’m doing anything very different to you. I’m only dissolving a quarter of a tablet in water and then reducing by 2.5% of the previous dose by taking a portion of the water out. I tried dissolving a whole tablet in January and I couldn’t tolerate that which is why I’m only doing a quarter at a time. I’ve also changed from using tap water to distilled water.

[morgana]

good to hear @BadMedicine you will be fine...i agree @hayduke we need a support system that is helpful, however unless i was having some kind of pychotic break i am not going near a pyschitrist...in fact my mental health has been the best its ever been...when i was on large doses of pych drugs i was hallucinating everyday without fail and was depressed because of it, i also felt depressed even thou i was on large doses of anti depressants, i also felt i wasnt connected to my body and that i always thought i was "dead i no longer feel this way since reducing my meds...i think these drugs actually cause the mental illness....all my problems are now physical symptoms which i am experiencing...i have never had any problems until i  started reducing my meds...eg sores on face ( only 1 left...yah!), joint pains, allergies, insomonia, cortisol rises, anxiety for no reason, upper back pain, lower back pain, pain in feet and ankles, i now feel like a hypocondriac...lol...even thou these symptoms get me down...i still do not feel depressed..yeah know...even little things i see improvement in.which i feel happy about ...for example for 24 years while being on large doses i would lean against  benches whenever i did food prep or wash dishes when i was working as a kitchen hand, i would try so hard not to, but couldnt and in just the last week...i have noticed when i am doing the dishes i am standing up straight without having to lean against the bench and hold myself up..(i was so surprised and shocked i wasnt even thinking about it) .that to me is a step forward...may not seem like much to people but when you have been on a major tranquliser for so many years...its a good feeling to start to feel normal again...

[hayduke]

On 6/14/2021 at 12:28 AM, morgana said:

however unless i was having some kind of pychotic break i am not going near a pyschitrist

 

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.  Having my treating psychologist being able to arrange and mediate with one if there was a crisis is a lot of peace of mind.

[hayduke]

On 6/13/2021 at 5:57 PM, BadMedicine said:

I definitely won’t be seeking any advice from health professionals about my state of mind

 

I'd still be an anxious mess if I hadn't found my psychologist.  I was just clear that I would keep shopping until I found one on my wavelength.

[morgana]

i agree with you @hayduke we need to keep searching until we find someone on our wave length...i couldnt find one in a pychologist, i did find a reflexologist who thinks on my wave length and so i felt supported talking to her ...not with my trauma issues but just having someone say "you know what, what you are experiencing is normal"....."you will be OK, you will be fine", "you are on the right track..keep doing what your doing and you will be fine"...however when it comes to past issues, i will eventually need to talk to someone about them, like yourself..and deal with them, and so am thinking about seeing another pychologist again but this one does"emotional freedom therapy", and she looks at the wholistic side of things....so she may be more on my wave length...expensive thou..

 

Oh i have been meditating for 30 mins before bed for the last week, has made such  huga difference in being able to sleep...back to 7 hr straight sleeps....yeh!

[hayduke]

Sounds like you're doing really well lately @morgana!  I reckon you'll find a suitable therapist who's up to date, even if over video link.  They're appearing in Australia now.

 

I know a couple of psychiatrists socially and they're pretty up to date with this stuff too, which is a good sign for the future.

 

Cheers

[morgana]

yeah things are looking good lately @hayduke, i am just wondering since you have tappered down so much, has your memory improved? or has anyone seen an improvement in their memory.... mine doesnt seem to be not so brain fogged but my memory is still quite bad...i seem more alert...and i guess  more "with it"...its a good feeling...i do see many improvemnts...

 

i probably dont see myself actually  starting my tapering until oct or nov this year or even jan next year, i am going to go slow and hold a couple of months inbetween each switch over to liquid form...my body really didnt like the last switch over to liquid i did.....

i hope you find work soon @hayduke in the field you like....until than enjoy your freedom and relax..

 

 

 

[hayduke]

Good question on the memory @morgana.  I'd say it's improved substantially, and so has my confidence in it.

 

After I did the EMDR work for the adverse childhood experiences, I could put all the places I'd lived in order, all the love interests in order, etc.  One of many things that fell into place over the next while after repairing the foundations. 

 

Allowing somatic memories into the process is part of setting it all right for me, too.

 

Having also figured out how toxic my family has been, and particularly my mother denying my memories, 'remembering it differently', especially when I held to to something she'd said before but 'couldn't remember' or 'never said that', it's very rewarding to discard all these lies and such.

 

That really started clearing up when I double checked with uninvolved, but present parties about my memory of a situation vs her account, and finding mine was correct.

 

Concentration and memory are still not perfect, if I go out to do 4 things I might miss a stop now and again, but hey, I'm in wds! 

 

I would say the trends are very encouraging.

 

Cheers

[morgana]

its great to hear @hayduke, it gives me hope that mine might improve with time...cool thankyou

[BadMedicine]

On 6/18/2021 at 11:32 PM, hayduke said:

 

I'd still be an anxious mess if I hadn't found my psychologist.  I was just clear that I would keep shopping until I found one on my wavelength.

Hi @hayduke. I agree with you that dealing with past traumas with someone who is supportive of the situation is a really important part of the process and has obviously worked really well for you, which is great. I am seeing a psychologist. I was meaning psychiatrists when I said medical professionals. There is nothing overt that has happened in my past but we are uncovering quite a few situations that has had an effect on my self esteem and mental health and I am noticing a difference in my thinking I think. He is not that tuned into withdrawal though but I think he is quite talented in what he does that it doesn’t matter too much. 
 

Good to hear @morganathat you have found someone to support you too. Someone else believing in you and validating the difficulty of the process must make all the difference.

[Venkat]

Hi @morgana

 

Just dropped in to say hello. 

I read on your post that you are holding at 2.5mg of olanzapine and you don't want to taper for another 6months.

Hope you are doing good while holding. 

My prayers and best wishes with you. 

 

Regards, venkat 

[morgana]

hi @Venkat its good to hear that you are doing so well, i believe as we taper we should all think of the positives that we are experienceing as well, not just the negatives because i know i have alot of positives on this journey...i am back to sleeping 7 to 8 hrs a night staight now which is a relief and i think thats why i want to take it slow...i am enjoying my sleep too much...lol  

you have come along way venkat and like you we still have a long way to go however with each others support on this site, makes it a whole lot easier....in fact i wouldnt be where i am today as well if it wasnt for SA

 

@hayduke is an inspiration to us all and i hope once he jumps off he doesnt disappear completely , i hope he checks up on us and continues to support us and offer his wisdom 

[BadMedicine]

Great to hear your sleep has got better. 8 hours straight is really good. I agree with you SA is a godsend. I would have been trapped on the drug forever if I hadn’t found out about slow tapering. And it is so encouraging to see others, like @haydukemanage to successfully get down and off these drugs using this process.

[Venkat]

On 6/26/2021 at 4:23 AM, morgana said:

hi @Venkat its good to hear that you are doing so well, i believe as we taper we should all think of the positives that we are experienceing as well, not just the negatives because i know i have alot of positives on this journey...i am back to sleeping 7 to 8 hrs a night staight now which is a relief and i think thats why i want to take it slow...i am enjoying my sleep too much...lol  

you have come along way venkat and like you we still have a long way to go however with each others support on this site, makes it a whole lot easier....in fact i wouldnt be where i am today as well if it wasnt for SA

 

@hayduke is an inspiration to us all and i hope once he jumps off he doesnt disappear completely , i hope he checks up on us and continues to support us and offer his wisdom 

Hi @morgana , it was pleasing to read your post. Thank you. 

You are sounding very positive. I get a feeling that you are not cowed down by the adverse effects of olanzapine so much and that is good to hear.

Your good sleep is a very big gift when in withdrawal. Hope it continues like wise. 

 

I too hope that hayduke stays on SA even after being med free and guides us.

 

As you said we all need to support each other in this journey. 

 

My only fear of being on internet is that I may get tempted to catch up with those ahead of me ,which is not a good idea. 

 

Regards, venkat 

 

[morgana]

i agree with you @Venkat , wanting to keep pace with everyone else but i dont think my body will actually let me go any faster even if i wanted to....lol

 

over the next 6 months i will still be making changes and progressing to my end goal but i wont be tapering, i will be switching slowly over to all liquid...eventually by the end of the year i will be on still 2.5mg of zyprexa but i will be taking it all with 25mls of water (just switching over in increments really affects me, its like taking a large reduction each time), once i am over completely to liquid, i am thinking of buying the Ora Plus and making it half n half with that as i read it can on someones thread make it more evenly distributed...i know it probably wont make that much a difference and people say you dont need it, but i am just thinking about it at the moment....also even thou i am sleeping it is not a deep sleep, i dream alot or its a shallow sleep, i would love a nice deep sleep...i am waiting for that as well before i begin switching again...so i am going slow, but i do understand wanting to keep up with everyone else 

[Venkat]

13 minutes ago, morgana said:

i agree with you @Venkat , wanting to keep pace with everyone else but i dont think my body will actually let me go any faster even if i wanted to....lol

 

over the next 6 months i will still be making changes and progressing to my end goal but i wont be tapering, i will be switching slowly over to all liquid...eventually by the end of the year i will be on still 2.5mg of zyprexa but i will be taking it all with 25mls of water (just switching over in increments really affects me, its like taking a large reduction each time), once i am over completely to liquid, i am thinking of buying the Ora Plus and making it half n half with that as i read it can on someones thread make it more evenly distributed...i know it probably wont make that much a difference and people say you dont need it, but i am just thinking about it at the moment....also even thou i am sleeping it is not a deep sleep, i dream alot or its a shallow sleep, i would love a nice deep sleep...i am waiting for that as well before i begin switching again...so i am going slow, but i do understand wanting to keep up with everyone else 

That sounds like a good plan morgana.

If I remember correctly ora plus was suggested by herewego. 

 

It really shouldn't matter wanting to go slow as long as withdrawal symptoms are minimized and tolerable. In fact you have more experience than me in tapering olanzapine. 

 

Best wishes 

[morgana]

how are you tappering? are you taking it in liquid form eg with water? you have been tappering from 5mg, how are you reducing your increments may i ask? are you using a syringe?

[Venkat]

Hi morgana 

I am following how hayduke is doing and it is working well. 

 

I first cut the tablet with  a pill cutter and dissolve it in 40ml of  water in a tumbler.

After a few minutes , with the nossle of the syringe dipped in the solution, push and pull the piston of the syringe a few times so that the tablet disperses evenly . Immediately I withdraw the amount to be discarded with the syringe and drink the remaining water in the tumbler.

 

As far as calculations are concerned my mind is not fit enough to do it , my wife has done that for me.

 

But you can see on heyduke's thread where he has explained about the calculations. 

 

Hayduke I believe was using 40ml of water earlier , and rupa was using about 100ml of water if I remember correctly. 

 

I am using the regular solid tablet ,not the oral dispersible ones.

 

The procedure gets over in about  five minutes. 

 

Hope this helps .

 

Regards, venkat 

 

 

 

[morgana]

thankyou @Venkat for sharing that with me....maybe 25mls wont be enough for a 2.5mg tablet....than! i may go up to 40mls than, your 40mls was for a 5mg tablet wasnt it? do you think it makes any difference if it is a 2.5mg and not a 5mg tablet in the 40 mls of water? would that be too much water for a 2.5mg tablet?

 

sorry to bother you @hayduke but for a 2.5mg tablet should i use 40mls or 25mls of water, or something inbetween, your advice would be most  appreciated..

 

thankyou

 

 

[Venkat]

 

My tapering calculations was a bit complicated morgana. 

I swallow one whole tablet of 2.5mg and dissolve the other 2.5mg tablet in 40ml of water. 

Your situation is different. It should be more simple and straightforward as you are on 2.5mg.

 

Let's see what hayduke has got to say. 

 

Initially I had struggled when I was dissolving that 2.5mg in 10ml of water ,it caused a lot of fluctuations in concentration of the medicine being taken and being discarded. That is when I had crashed. Later realised that more the water better is the distribution and less errors in concentration. 

[hayduke]

1 hour ago, morgana said:

for a 2.5mg tablet should i use 40mls or 25mls of water, or something inbetween

 

Hey Morgana, no worries.

 

Since getting down to the 2.5mg tablet, I like 25ml.  For a 5mg tablet I would use 50ml.

 

First, the maths is super easy then, just move the decimal point.  Way easier when you're tired.

 

Second, the concentration is pretty good there.  The more diluted I made the suspension, the weaker the effects of the drug felt.  Nothing I didn't get used to in a couple of days, but I think since you're already finding it rough crossing over to a liquid, a higher concentration might keep your body happier.

 

About once a week I measure out my 25ml base of filtered water from a 25 ml pipette into a brown glass bottle from the chemist.  Drop the tablet in, lid on, give it a good shake, store in the fridge, and wait till it's disintegrated (maybe 60 mins or so, some generics are quicker). 

 

Then during the week draw out the current dosage from an adjustable pipette and squirt straight into my mouth.  Wash out the pipette tube and air dry.  Only takes a minute before bed, and dialling the dose straight into the pipette again makes it harder to stuff up when I'm tired.

[morgana]

thankyou @Venkat and @hayduke i will stick with 25mls than....thankyou, also i went to take my medication tonight from a new packet i got this arvo and everyone i opened disentigrated as soon as i cut it in half, so i couldnt even roughly half it, so i decided just to throw the whole 2.5mg tablet into 25mls of water.....i have no choice for some reason its the same brand i always get and never had any problems before.   but everyone i try to cut just crumbles, i cannot get 2 complete halves out of them.....extremely dissappointed......well thankyou both for letting me know as i will be starting this from now on....

[NNhope]

Hi @morgana how has things been since the switch to liquid completely. Are you still sleeping well? Has everything settled for you?

 

I need to start switching to liquid myself soon. It's making me quite nervous.