Humanity deserves this

[Evoldnahturt]

Have any of you considered that humanity may deserve things like withdrawal syndrome?  Industry is only able to do this to us because people are so arrogant.  They're confident that people in positions of power love us and we should trust them.  They've put no thought into this, but they're confident that they're right and you're wrong if you disagree.  Withdrawal syndrome feels like justice against this crime.  I don't even blame the capitalists.  It makes sense that they would do this.  I blame the peasants for allowing it to happen and for condemning people that try to help them.  I'm pretty sure most of you are still guilty of this, just not specifically regarding withdrawal syndrome.  It doesn't matter how many times people are wrong.  Most people are completely unwilling to ever lean from their mistakes.  For those of you that are still arrogant even after experiencing this.  **** you.

[Sunnyday]

@Evoldnahturt Hi. I think humanity often advances itself so quickly that we barely know what we're doing. Collectively we can be dangerous and destructive while most individuals probably don't intend to be.
I also think many times people do not realise what they indirectly and unintentionally contribute to, within many different aspects and I think this applies to every single one of us in one way or another. I also think many times it is for survival (or perceived purpose of survival).

 

I think the best we can do is to try to take individual responsibility in ways we know how, and then in a constructive way encourage others to do the same by educating them instead of scolding (although I really do understand the frustration).

 

We can choose to let hate bring us down or try to forgive people's flaws and ignorance (because we are all guilty of it in one way or another) and work towards improving society in a way that isn't destructive. 
Hate and anger becomes a sort of arrogance as well, in my opinion (also something we're all guilty of at times). We fail to understand other people's actions and thoughts to the extent needed and start assuming things about others, maybe because we expect them to have similar perspectives and ''starting points'' as ourselves even though that's rarely the case.

[Evoldnahturt]

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Collectively we can be dangerous and destructive while most individuals probably don't intend to be.

 

I disagree.  I rarely come across a person that seems to care about the truth.  They're so obsessed with their cultures and their ego that the truth isn't even relevant to most of them.  They care about appearing right to maintain the pretense that they deserve to respect themselves and to gain other people's respect.  The dishonest approach the peasants use towards disagreements proves they don't actually care about being respectable or correct.  Their intent is malicious.

 

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I also think many times people do not realise what they indirectly and unintentionally contribute to

 

Yet they're extremely confident that they know everything.

 

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I think the best we can do is to try to take individual responsibility in ways we know how, and then in a constructive way encourage others to do the same by educating them instead of scolding

 

I only scold when I'm hiding behind a keyboard, because I'm a coward.  The peasants don't take kindly to contrary ideas.  Until recently the penalty was usually death.  Now they're only allowed to irritate me, which harms me and doesn't do anybody and good.  I don't see a point.  I prefer these benign forms of terrorism.

 

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We can choose to let hate bring us down or try to forgive people's flaws and ignorance (because we are all guilty of it in one way or another) and work towards improving society in a way that isn't destructive. 

 

Some of us are much less guilty than others.  There should be a blurry line between what should be considered acceptable and what shouldn't be.  I try really hard not to hate people.  I think I'm doing a pretty good job considering the circumstances.  I don't see a point in trying to improve society.  We're just going to crash into the wall.  We can delay it, but that doesn't seem humane.

 

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We fail to understand other people's actions and thoughts to the extent needed and start assuming things about others

 

I'm not assuming.  I've spent a lot of time observing and studying the peasants.  My model is incomplete and probably somewhat inaccurate, but it's proven enough to justify my level of confidence towards it.  I can at least say I'm much closer to the truth than everybody else.

[Sunnyday]

I noticed this became a wall of text after writing it, so I understand if it's too much to read or respond to. But felt I wanted to express my thought process regarding this, hope you don't mind (TL;DR main point further down).

 

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I disagree.  I rarely come across a person that seems to care about the truth.  They're so obsessed with their cultures and their ego that the truth isn't even relevant to most of them.  They care about appearing right to maintain the pretense that they deserve to respect themselves and to gain other people's respect.  The dishonest approach the peasants use towards disagreements proves they don't actually care about being respectable or correct.  Their intent is malicious.

 

I tend to get the same impression at times. The only thing I am fairly sure of is that many of those same people are not inherently bad or even close to it. Sometimes people also feel justified to be malicious because of reasons we can't grasp (simply because we're not them). By saying this I'm not saying we should accept malicious behaviour, though.

 

The problem for me is that hating them for this or acting aggressively will do no good, so I can choose to have an unproductive mindset (the destructive/hateful kind) or choose to seriously challenge myself. And by challenging myself I mean continuously creating a new mindset by seeing positive side effects/consequences of bad things happening that I and others can gain from. This might sound like nonsense. To ''just be positive'' but I think there lies a constant and beneficial challenge in that which in the end will only help us. I think the reason many are reluctant to this mindset could be because it makes it feel like we surrender or choose ignorance, when to me it is the opposite. When I act on negative emotions, that to me becomes surrendering and in some cases letting others affect me and my happiness to such a great extent. Indirectly I give them a lot of power over me. 

 

Example to clarify what I mean: For a long time I saw someone close to me as very irresponsible and selfish for refusing to see some huge problems, and therefore remaining passive and not being a part of the solution. It made me very angry, frustrated and distanced. But I realised that I will literally gain nothing from this mindset and attitude so why would I, from a logical standpoint at least, allow myself to have it? I knew that technically I was preventing good things instead of creating them by letting this mindset dictate my behaviour and feelings. This is what made me angry at the person in the first place, them seemingly preventing good things by being ignorant. But now I was indirectly doing the same thing by acting in a way that was unproductive and in the end harmful. It tainted my happiness for no useful reason, and eventually it also tainted my behaviour despite me having good intentions at first.

 

I don't mean we should ignore problems to stay happy though, truth is one of the most important things to me, within all aspects. But I mean that we rather have an option to forgive people so that our life doesn't get tainted from pointless, negative emotions if it doesn't lead to a productive outcome. Because then it is actually useless (unless the negative emotions on their own can somehow be seen as something fruitful). 

It's possible I'm missing something with this kind of reasoning, but so far it has made the most sense to me.

 

My main point is something that might come off as provocative to some, but it is that we have a choice. Which is to allow a mindset that makes us unhappy and typically leads us to a destructive behavior, or to not let our negative feelings dictate our happiness and outlook on the world and with that creating our own happiness, (simply put). I will also say however that this mindset became a lot harder for me to uphold during withdrawal due to neuro emotions, which is probably worth mentioning in here.

 

I also agree that some are a lot less guilty than others. But I believe we can forgive even the ''more guilty'' ones. And the reason I believe that is that forgiving them does not mean accepting bad things or bad behaviours and becoming passive. For me at least this took forever to accept and come to terms with, that I could forgive the most horrible things without it being equal to accepting and being fine with it, because it is what I had learned more or less. That forgiveness = being fine with and becoming passive to others wrongdoings. This actually extended to myself as well and I realised I judged myself as harshly and wouldn't forgive myself regarding some things since that would mean accepting my wrongdoings and not work on my flaws (I thought/felt).

 

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I'm not assuming.  I've spent a lot of time observing and studying the peasants.  My model is incomplete and probably somewhat inaccurate, but it's proven enough to justify my level of confidence towards it.  I can at least say I'm much closer to the truth than everybody else.

 

I meant more that when we feel anger/hate towards others it is usually a failed attempt at understanding them, at least with the mindset I try to have about it. I can understand if people disagree with this. But when it comes to others we usually don't know enough about their thought processes and experiences to draw conclusions that are as forgiving/understanding as maybe they are to themselves (and maybe we are to ourselves). We can study others behaviour but it will be almost impossible to truly understand another individual as much as we understand ourselves, and I think that's a decent reason to halt the harsher conclusions we often come to. If not for their sake for our own, for the reasons mentioned above.

 

Regarding improving society I can definitely understand not being bothered. Personally I isolate pretty heavily and then choose carefully what I want to put my energy on trying to improve. I also think it can be a matter of different interpretations regarding what a society crashing into the wall actually entails. As I see it, if we in some way do, it might end up causing very positive side effects afterwards. It seems humans sometimes need very extreme wake up calls to change things for the better. Often to the detriment of some of us.

 

Hopefully my text made some kinda sense for anyone bothered enough to read it, this ended up more abstract than planned!

[Evoldnahturt]

4 hours ago, Sunnyday said:

I noticed this became a wall of text after writing it, so I understand if it's too much to read or respond to. But felt I wanted to express my thought process regarding this, hope you don't mind (TL;DR main point further down).

 

I enjoy long-winded arguments with intelligent people.

 

 

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I tend to get the same impression at times. The only thing I am fairly sure of is that many of those same people are not inherently bad or even close to it. Sometimes people also feel justified to be malicious because of reasons we can't grasp (simply because we're not them). By saying this I'm not saying we should accept malicious behaviour, though.

 

I don't think the peasants are usually complicated enough to feel the need to justify anything to themselves.  They don't have reasons behind their decisions because they don't think.  They run on emotion.  They're emotionally drawn to simple rewards that they can understand.  The benefits of true self-respect aren't obvious to them, so they don't care about it.  They may not be consciously aware of anything, but they're at least subconsciously malicious.

 

 

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The problem for me is that hating them for this or acting aggressively will do no good, so I can choose to have an unproductive mindset (the destructive/hateful kind) or choose to seriously challenge myself. And by challenging myself I mean continuously creating a new mindset by seeing positive side effects/consequences of bad things happening that I and others can gain from. This might sound like nonsense. To ''just be positive'' but I think there lies a constant and beneficial challenge in that which in the end will only help us. I think the reason many are reluctant to this mindset could be because it makes it feel like we surrender or choose ignorance, when to me it is the opposite. When I act on negative emotions, that to me becomes surrendering and in some cases letting others affect me and my happiness to such a great extent. Indirectly I give them a lot of power over me. 

 

Example to clarify what I mean: For a long time I saw someone close to me as very irresponsible and selfish for refusing to see some huge problems, and therefore remaining passive and not being a part of the solution. It made me very angry, frustrated and distanced. But I realised that I will literally gain nothing from this mindset and attitude so why would I, from a logical standpoint at least, allow myself to have it? I knew that technically I was preventing good things instead of creating them by letting this mindset dictate my behaviour and feelings. This is what made me angry at the person in the first place, them seemingly preventing good things by being ignorant. But now I was indirectly doing the same thing by acting in a way that was unproductive and in the end harmful. It tainted my happiness for no useful reason, and eventually it also tainted my behaviour despite me having good intentions at first.

 

I don't mean we should ignore problems to stay happy though, truth is one of the most important things to me, within all aspects. But I mean that we rather have an option to forgive people so that our life doesn't get tainted from pointless, negative emotions if it doesn't lead to a productive outcome. Because then it is actually useless (unless the negative emotions on their own can somehow be seen as something fruitful). 

It's possible I'm missing something with this kind of reasoning, but so far it has made the most sense to me.

 

My main point is something that might come off as provocative to some, but it is that we have a choice. Which is to allow a mindset that makes us unhappy and typically leads us to a destructive behavior, or to not let our negative feelings dictate our happiness and outlook on the world and with that creating our own happiness, (simply put). I will also say however that this mindset became a lot harder for me to uphold during withdrawal due to neuro emotions, which is probably worth mentioning in here.

 

I agree with all of this except for what seems to be an assumption that I'm not already trying to minimize the hatred I feel.  I've put an enormous amount of effort into this for the past 19 years.  We can control whether we choose to exaggerate what comes naturally and we can, over time, have an effect on what comes naturally, but we don't have complete control over this.  This is especially true for broads and crazy people like us.  Some people may come close, but there are no perfect sages.  I'm not nearly as hateful as I would be if I didn't try so hard to bottle it up.

 

 

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I also agree that some are a lot less guilty than others. But I believe we can forgive even the ''more guilty'' ones. And the reason I believe that is that forgiving them does not mean accepting bad things or bad behaviours and becoming passive. For me at least this took forever to accept and come to terms with, that I could forgive the most horrible things without it being equal to accepting and being fine with it, because it is what I had learned more or less. That forgiveness = being fine with and becoming passive to others wrongdoings. This actually extended to myself as well and I realised I judged myself as harshly and wouldn't forgive myself regarding some things since that would mean accepting my wrongdoings and not work on my flaws (I thought/felt).

 

We can't always choose who we forgive.  We may decide that we want to forgive people because we recognize it would allow us to live a better life, but we may not be able to make that happen.  We're not in complete control of our emotions, so we aren't in complete control over who we do and don't forgive.  We can control how we treat people, but that's another issue.

 

 

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I meant more that when we feel anger/hate towards others it is usually a failed attempt at understanding them, at least with the mindset I try to have about it. I can understand if people disagree with this. But when it comes to others we usually don't know enough about their thought processes and experiences to draw conclusions that are as forgiving/understanding as maybe they are to themselves (and maybe we are to ourselves). We can study others behaviour but it will be almost impossible to truly understand another individual as much as we understand ourselves, and I think that's a decent reason to halt the harsher conclusions we often come to. If not for their sake for our own, for the reasons mentioned above.

 

If you're introspective enough to break past the natural barriers that evolved to prevent you from understanding human nature, you'll understand the peasants better than they understand themselves.  I don't need to experience what they experienced.  I can take what I know about people, visualize different possible pasts, and now I know all about "that type" when I bump into it.  I cram them into a little pre-defined box and use that to make predictions about their future behavior.  This only works on peasants, because they're cultural enough that there isn't enough variance between them to need more detail than this.  They're almost exact carbon copies of each other.  It's disgusting, but it makes it a lot easier to understand them once you figure out the different flavors of peasant.

 

 

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Regarding improving society I can definitely understand not being bothered. Personally I isolate pretty heavily and then choose carefully what I want to put my energy on trying to improve. I also think it can be a matter of different interpretations regarding what a society crashing into the wall actually entails. As I see it, if we in some way do, it might end up causing very positive side effects afterwards. It seems humans sometimes need very extreme wake up calls to change things for the better. Often to the detriment of some of us.

 

Slamming on the break pedal to hit the wall at 60 instead of 100 is as pointless as choosing to fight a terminal illness.  It would be much more humane to blow it's brains out with a shotgun.  You're better off believing there's hope for our species.  It's a more pleasant view of the situation and it allows you to give your life some purpose, which is more in accordance with nature.

 

By the way, are you a limey?

 

[Sunnyday]

Hi @Evoldnahturt, do you mind me responding to your last post in a pm? I don't mind being public with my thoughts and opinions but I suspect I can come off as very opinionated, which sometimes stirs up feelings and I feel I have an obligation to somewhat avoid that on here if I can (I have definitely said my part in this thread either way ).

 

If you prefer to not talk over pm I completely understand as well.