dadtobe: Klonopin, escitalopram, alcohol, Novocaine - need advice

[dadtobe]

Just now, Shep said:

 

I've asked moderators more familiar with Lexapro to take a look at your thread, but just to clarify, are you stopping the Klonopin reinstatement? 

 

Yes. It's been 37 hours since my last dose and I'm mostly in a window right now I think. I know I could feel the negatives of this in a couple days but the paradoxical reaction I had of feeling wired for 15+ hours after was pretty horrible. I just didn't want to test the theory again after I was finally feeling ok last night and able to sleep.  Hopefully it's not just the tiny bit of Klonopin left in my system making me feel well. I can still take it now if you suggest it but I feel "almost" back to normal right now. I got some brain fog yesterday for the first time ever, and my symptoms let up shortly after quite a bit. I didn't even know what that was until I experienced it. Not sure what's going on, but for now I'll take it.

[Shep]

Thanks for your explanation, dadtobe. Please stop the Klonopin completely and let's wait for the other mods to give their feedback on the Lexapro. Please don't make any changes to the Lexapro in the meantime. If you do, you won't know if any changes in symptoms are due to the Klonopin leaving your system or the change in the Lexapro dose. 

 

Please update your signature to reflect this short Klonopin reinstatement. Please include the dates you took it and the dose. Your signature is here:

 

Account Settings - Create or Update Your Signature

[Altostrata]

Hello, dad.

 

I need to see more of your daily notes.

 

9 hours ago, dadtobe said:

Daily log

 

9/23

8:31AM - Took 500mg of Tylenol for mild headache

8:41AM - Ate bowl of plain cheerios and milk

9:16am - Took Lexapro 4.46mg

9:24am - No major burning on body. Still a bit amped up though.

11:23am - Burning neck, back. Still tiny bit amped up.

1:29pm - Had Mac & Cheese, and glass of milk. I think my first case of Brain Fog, Symptoms rating: 5. No longer amped up

4:50pm - Symptoms are manageable… for the first time in a few days it feels like. 

5:06pm - Took 500mg of Tylenol for back pain

5:15pm - Homemade Strawberry banana smoothie

5:25pm - Bean cheese burrito

6:15pm - 8:30pm - symptoms mild took a nap on the couch (more sleep than past couple nights)

12isham - 6:30am - was able to sleep again after laying in bed for 3 hours

6:37am - very mild burning in chest and back + bad headache. Best I’ve felt since Sept 14th. Trying not to celebrate too quickly

 

Note: I did not take Klonopin yesterday

 

Should we go down on the Lexapro now that I feel almost ok today? Or maybe best to hold now?

 

 

I would not make any drug changes until we find out what your baseline on Lexapro might be. This will take a few more days of daily notes. Please be very regular with your dosing.

 

It sounds like you were getting paradoxical reactions from the last round of Klonopin.

[dadtobe]

Will do, thanks @Altostrata

[dadtobe]

9/24

6:30am - Woke up. Symptoms very very mild back burning

7:45am - Strawberry banana smoothie + plain Cheerios & Milk

10:40am  - Took Lexapro 4.46mg

11:30am - Ate sweet potato fries, beef burrito with garlic mayo & cheese, grapefruit Waterloo for drink

12:07pm - noticing mild anxiety

12:36pm - lots of stomach growling, mild chest burning

1:42pm - very mild anxiety

3:00pm - kale banana almond milk protein avocado oil smoothie

4:30pm - chicken bone broth soup

4:50pm - symptoms are a 2 on the scale. Slight back burn / mild anxiety

6:00pm - symptoms are 2 on the scale still. Slight burning back, chest, legs / mild anxiety

6:15pm - Ate rest of sweet potato fries, beef burrito with garlic mayo & cheese

6:39pm - back hurts took 500mg Tylenol (from muscle pain not related to meds)

7:46pm - very mild burning in back, legs

10:00pmish - sour cream Pringles, Mac & cheese, glass of milk

7:46am - woke with mild anxiety, burning in back, stomach, chest is very minimum

 

Pretty much doing same as day before.

[Altostrata]

It seems you may be stabilizing. This will be gradual. Please continue to post daily notes.

 

You may be hypersensitive and reacting to spicy foods or foods with artificial ingredients, You may wish to avoid those foods for a while.

[dadtobe]

3 hours ago, Altostrata said:

It seems you may be stabilizing. This will be gradual. Please continue to post daily notes.

 

You may be hypersensitive and reacting to spicy foods or foods with artificial ingredients, You may wish to avoid those foods for a while.

 

Will do. Thank you. I will keep posting daily. 

[ChessieCat]

9 hours ago, dadtobe said:

sour cream Pringles

 

These contain MSG which is a neurotoxin.  Before I was even taking an antidepressant I got hooked on them ended up with severe MSG intolerance where I couldn't even tolerate natural glutamates.  MSG is E621.  There are flavour enhancers in many savoury foods, eg soups, frozen pizzas, ready to eat meals, savoury snack foods.  It took many years before I was able to eat natural glutamates whenever I wanted to.

 

Here's a list of the flavour enhancer numbers:  http://food-info.net/uk/e/e600-700.htm

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by ChessieCat

[dadtobe]

13 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

These contain MSG which is a neurotoxin.  Before I was even taking an antidepressant I got hooked on them ended up with severe MSG intolerance where I couldn't even tolerate natural glutamates.  MSG is E621.  There are flavour enhancers in many savoury foods, eg soups, frozen pizzas, ready to eat meals, savoury snack foods.  It took many years before I was able to eat natural glutamates whenever I wanted to

 

Thanks ChessieCat, I'm learning fast. Just kind of bought any food I thought I could eat since I was losing weight so fast. I'll keep an eye on this. 

 

 

9/25

7:46am - woke with mild anxiety, burning in back is very minimum

8:30am - Bowl of plain Cheerios and milk

10:39am - 4.46mg Lexapro

11:30am - Mac and cheese / ketchup / sriracha (read the no spicy thing after I ate this already, will avoid sriracha)

12:26pm - Mild back burning / anxiety

1:30pm - Berry smoothie

2:19pm - Bacon and Black Forest organic gummies (I need to cut the gummies)

2:19pm - Symptoms same, mild burning, anxiety

4:15pm - Butternut squash soup, bagel with cream cheese

6:00pm - Waterloo grapefruit drink

7:00pm - Steak homemade asian sauce and green beans and a propel strawberry lemonade

7:32pm - Very very mild stomach and back burning

10:00am - Slept 8ish hours

7:17am - Woke with mild anxiety. No burning or so little I can’t tell, moving in right direction still. 

[Altostrata]

Yes, this looks pretty good.

 

Those bottled drinks are loaded with artificial ingredients.

[dadtobe]

9/26

7:27am - Quaker Oats lower sugar maple & brown sugar oatmeal w/ Carrots blueberry banana mandarin smoothie

9:30am - 3 Empanadas, Queso y Guyaba, Chicken, Beef

10am - 2 mile hike

3:15pm - Cheeseburger - Mayo Aioli

6-11pm - 2 smoothies (strawberries, mandarins, spinach, apples)

5am - woke with anxiety

9am - finally got out of bed, still have wired feeling

[Altostrata]

Please include all your drug doses in your daily notes.

[dadtobe]

Sorry I know I missed that yesterday, I took Lexapro 4.46mg between 8-9AM for 9/26.

 

9/27

5am - woke with anxiety

9am - finally got out of bed, still have wired feeling

9:05am - had a bowl of Cheerios and almond milk

11am - 4.46mg Lexapro

12:00pm - waffle, eggs, bacon, toast w/ strawberry jam

12:00pm - still feel amped up / some anxiety / slight burning

12:33pm - amping up even more, getting hard to sit still, going into a wave I think

2:15pm - slight improvement in wired-ness, but still wired

3:20pm - finished eggs, bacon

3:20pm - feel tired, still feel slightly wired but better than earlier

3:29pm - 1000mg fish oil

5:00pm - Beef Ravioli

7:00pm - chili

8:18pm - feeling almost normal, tired. No burning, anxiety, and no longer noticeably wired

8:30pm - tried to sleep

1:37am - took Unisom (I know I shouldn’t do this, desperate for sleep since wave is returning, didn't work guess I won't try that again)

7:06am - Wasn’t able to sleep last night, feel weird wired / amped again this morning. Insomnia

[Gridley]

5 hours ago, dadtobe said:

bacon

Bacon often has MSG.  Check your package.

[Altostrata]

Are you taking any other drugs, such as a stomach acid blocker?

 

Please be sure to take Lexapro at the same time each day. We need to see more of your symptom pattern to check this:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17375980/

Quote

Following oral administration, escitalopram is rapidly absorbed and reaches maximum plasma concentrations in approximately 3-4 hours after either single- or multiple-dose administration.

 

[dadtobe]

47 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Are you taking any other drugs, such as a stomach acid blocker?

 

No

 

48 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Are you taking any other drugs, such as a stomach acid blocker?

 

Please be sure to take Lexapro at the same time each day. We need to see more of your symptom pattern to check this:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17375980/

 

 

I'll keep posting every day. I'll start taking Lexapro at exact same time. I was fluctuating a few hours every morning. 

 

Thanks for the help

[dadtobe]

9/28

7:26am - 4.46mg Lexapro

8:32am - bowl of almond milk and plain cheerios

8:45am - Feel slight electricity / burning in back

1:43pm - some anxiety but no burning

1:59pm - 1000mg fish oil + 400IU vitamin E

3:00pm - Bread and crab dip

5:25pm - mild anxiety almost no burning (anxiety running a bit higher because of work today)

5:25pm - Tylenol 500mg (back muscle pain unrelated to WD)

6:00pm - Potatoes and homemade hamburgers with mushroom sauce

6:45pm - Bowl of Cheerios and Milk - Slightly wired

12:43am - Insomnia - maybe slept 1 hour from 8 to 11 - feel wired / electricity, moderate burning in back, arms

5:03am - Insomnia - again maybe slept for an hour from 1 to 5am. - feel wired / electricity, slight burning in back, arms, legs

5:03am - Bowl of Cheerios and Milk

 

Can I add Melatonin to try and promote sleep? 

 

 

This is an updated chart with some notes but not complete, a little easier to see my dose schedule.

 

[ChessieCat]

49 minutes ago, dadtobe said:

Can I add Melatonin to try and promote sleep? 

 

13 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Please be sure to take Lexapro at the same time each day. We need to see more of your symptom pattern to check this:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17375980/

 

When providing daily symptom notes for assessment, adding in anything new or removing/changing dose of anything complicates things.

 

So in answer to your question, please wait until your notes assessment is completed.

[Shep]

1 hour ago, dadtobe said:

5:25pm - Tylenol 500mg (back muscle pain unrelated to WD)

 

Dadtobe, are you recovering from a back injury? Are you able to work with a physical therapist to find non-drug ways of healing? 

 

Benzo withdrawal can cause a lot of muscle problems because they're muscle relaxers, so when you come off them, you can have very tight and painful muscles. Gentle stretches can be helpful, but if you're dealing with something more serious, please let us know. 

 

 

[dadtobe]

29 minutes ago, Shep said:

Dadtobe, are you recovering from a back injury? Are you able to work with a physical therapist to find non-drug ways of healing? 

 

No just I'm pacing a lot around the house and it's causing my back to hurt I think since I'm a bit hunched over / bad posture.  This is a different symptom from the burning pain I'm feeling in my back / arms.

[dadtobe]

56 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

When providing daily symptom notes for assessment, adding in anything new or removing/changing dose of anything complicates things.

 

So in answer to your question, please wait until your notes assessment is completed.

 

Ok. I added fish oil / vitamin E, just based on the original welcome message. I should probably remove those? 

[dadtobe]

@Shep I feel my symptoms returning to extreme burning, haven't slept really the past 2 nights. It's been about a week since I did the Klonopin reinstatement for 2 days at .03125mg. I then got a window from Thursday so didn't take Klonopin thinking I was better. I was fine until Sunday. Sunday night symptoms started to return again. Which is sort of on the timeline of Klonopin withdrawal. It's so hard for me to tell whether this is Klonopin withdrawal or Lexapro withdrawal. I'm really torn as to what to do. I feel like I want to preemptively  take Klonopin .03125mg, and then take it consistently until I'm sure I'm stabilized. The burning pain is so intense, once the nausea hits and with the insomnia, I literally feel on death's doorstep

[dadtobe]

@Altostrata Favor, maybe you could advise on the above? Shep won't be in til tomorrow morning I believe. I'm probably going to take Klonopin again. My symptoms today are coming back hard. I took a small amount of Klonopin 9/21-9/22 after being severe burning pain and not sleeping. 9/23 I finally slept, 9/24-27 I was mostly fine after not taking Klonopin (probably still in my system). I stopped sleeping night of 9/27 and 9/28. Now the severe burning is coming back on top of not being able to sleep. I have a feeling if I don't take the Klonopin now this is going to get a lot more severe. I don't want to mess up my logs, but it's been 7 days since I last took Klonopin. 11 days at the same Lexapro dose. While I know Lexapro may take awhile to figure itself out, it almost feels at this point I'm going to need the Klonopin to stabilize the Lexapro, the pain is too intense. That's if the Lexapro has made me unstable.

[Altostrata]

How has your symptom pattern changed since you updosed to 4.46mg Lexapro on 9/19?

 

Do you feel any effect of fish oil and magnesium? What times of day do you take them.

 

It sounds like you have benzo withdrawal. That little bit of Klonopin temporarily repaired it.

 

Yes, you can add melatonin at night, it may give you a couple more hours of sleep. See Melatonin for sleep: Many people find it helpful

 

For your back, as Shep suggested, try stretching your back with your arms above your head.

 

 

[dadtobe]

28 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

How has your symptom pattern changed since you updosed to 4.46mg Lexapro on 9/19?  

 

Do you feel any effect of fish oil and magnesium? What times of day do you take them.

 

Symptom pattern hasn't really changed since updosing other than a few days of peace maybe because of the Klonopin.

 

Fish oil hasn't done anything as far as I can tell, I haven't taken magnesium.

[Altostrata]

It appears to me that you probably have benzo withdrawal starting with going off Klonopin in mid-August and exacerbated by the alcohol and Lexapro reduction.

 

Hard to tell if you also have Lexapro withdrawal. Need to see more daily notes to track what updose is doing.

 

If you have benzo withdrawal, you can get through it by coping with the symptoms, which should fade over time -- that's up to you.

 

Let's ask @Shep if adding a small amount of Klonopin makes sense. If you continue to take it, you'll have to taper it eventually.

 

 

[dadtobe]

I already took .03125mg about 5 minutes ago. Really sorry. Probably working backwards here. I reinstated a week ago and honestly the burning pain + no sleep is so unbearable. I need to get through taxes in the next 15 days. I'm going to take it consistently until I'm stable again and then we can discuss how to taper. Maybe I'm just delaying the inevitable.  Last time I jumped with minimal problems for 4 weeks. Not sure if benzo withdrawal can be delayed though too. 

[Altostrata]

2 hours ago, dadtobe said:

I reinstated a week ago and honestly the burning pain + no sleep is so unbearable.

 

You've been taking Klonopin for a week? What is your drug schedule?

[dadtobe]

No I haven't been taking Klonopin daily. I took Klonopin last 9/21 and 9/22, I felt better on 9/23 so I decided to not take it again because I thought it might have been having a paradoxical effect. But clearly it was helping me. Now I'm paying for that decision I think. Started not sleeping night of 9/27 and 9/28, going on 9/29. 

 

I just take Lexapro in the mornings right now.

[ChessieCat]

 

5 hours ago, dadtobe said:

I already took .03125mg about 5 minutes ago.

 

But you said the above and then said this: 

 

2 hours ago, dadtobe said:

No I haven't been taking Klonopin daily. I took Klonopin last 9/21 and 9/22, I felt better on 9/23 so I decided to not take it again

 

So which is it?  Please try to be more accurate / state more clearly what you are taking when.

[dadtobe]

7 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

 

But you said the above and then said this: 

 

 

So which is it?  Please try to be more accurate / state more clearly what you are taking when.

 

I have not been taking Klonopin daily. 

 

This is my Klonopin schedule

 

Before this no Klonopin since 8/17

 

9/21 - Klonopin .03125mg

9/22 - Klonopin .03125mg

9/29.- 3:30pm Klonopin .03125mg

9/30 - 1AM - Klonopin .01238mg (roughly 7 1/2 hours after last dose). I was trying to see if it'd help at all, but no luck. 

 

Lexapro + Klonopin Schedule is below:

 

Really sorry haven't slept in 3 nights now. I'm doing really terribly. Tonight vomiting, insomnia, burning pain all over body, really sweaty, feels like something is keeping me wired 24/7, can barely lay down.

 

Right now I feel like heading to ER, but I was told they'd just put me back on a high dose of benzo. Trying to avoid this. 

 

 

9/29 log

5:03am - Bowl of Cheerios and Milk

7:19am - burning in back, arms, feel wired / electricity

7:30am - had blood drawn (blood tests for b12, liver, etc.)

7:34am - 4.46mg Lexapro

7:49am - sweaty palms, feel more wired, burning back, arms, hard to sit still

9:16am - Milk and plain Cheerios

9:43am - burning intensifying, lightheaded

11:02am - sweaty palms, lightheaded, burning subsiding for the moment

11:24am - burning returning to back / arms. Started to feel some nausea

12:31pm - bone broth

12:50pm - Strawberry banana smoothie w/ protein

12:50pm - still wired

1:58pm - burning going back to severe, can’t sleep still feel wired

3:33pm - Klonopin  .03125 mg

3:59pm - Already feeling some relief

4:35pm - some mild relief

5:00pm - Chobani Strawberry Banana yogurt

5:12pm - lots of relief from burning pain, felt relaxed, but stomach chest starting to feel amped. Palms / feet sweaty

6:30pm - had a bowl of Cheerios and milk

6:30pm - trying to sleep, back hurts, arms hurt, stomach uncomfortable

1:00AM - Klonopin .01238mg 

1:30AM - Berry smoothie

4:02AM - Still no sleep all night

 

[dadtobe]

Sept 29th

5:03am - Bowl of Cheerios and Milk

7:19am - burning in back, arms, feel wired / electricity

7:30am - had blood drawn (blood tests for b12, liver, etc.)

7:34am - 4.46mg Lexapro

7:49am - sweaty palms, feel more wired, burning back, arms, hard to sit still

9:16am - Milk and plain Cheerios

9:43am - burning intensifying, lightheaded

11:02am - sweaty palms, lightheaded, burning subsiding for the moment

11:24am - burning returning to back / arms. Started to feel some nausea

12:31pm - bone broth

12:50pm - Strawberry banana smoothie w/ protein

12:50pm - still wired

1:58pm - burning going back to severe, can’t sleep still feel wired

3:33pm - Klonopin  .03125 mg

3:59pm - Already feeling some relief

4:35pm - some mild relief

5:00pm - Chobani Strawberry Banana yogurt

5:12pm - lots of relief from burning pain, felt relaxed, but stomach chest starting to feel amped. Palms / feet sweaty

6:30pm - had a bowl of Cheerios and milk

6:30pm - trying to sleep, burning back, burning arms, stomach uncomfortable

1:00AM - Klonopin .01238mg 

1:30AM - Berry smoothie

4:02AM - Still no sleep all night

Vomiting, Burning body, 0 Sleep all night

[Shep]

On 9/29/2020 at 8:12 AM, dadtobe said:

No just I'm pacing a lot around the house and it's causing my back to hurt I think since I'm a bit hunched over / bad posture.  This is a different symptom from the burning pain I'm feeling in my back / arms.

 

The burning pain in your back and arms may also be related to your bad posture, as well as withdrawal. If your shoulders are tensed up, that tension can affect your arms and wrists. 

 

You're setting yourself up for a very painful withdrawal experience if you don't work to correct this. There are a lot of resources available on YouTube for this. Here's one:

 

How to Get Rid of a Neck Hump (5 Exercises for a Total Posture Makeover) video (13 minutes)

 

Another great one for relaxation:

 

Legs Up The Wall - Foundations of Yoga video (7 minutes)

 

A couple of SA's threads on non-drug ways of handling pain and stretching:

 

Non-drug techniques for dealing with body pain

 

Yoga for calming (very simple poses can help greatly)

 

You might also want to try taking a warm Epsom salt bath to relax your muscles. Epsom salt contains magnesium, so you could start with a small amount to make sure you're not sensitive to it. 

 

18 hours ago, dadtobe said:

I'm probably going to take Klonopin again. My symptoms today are coming back hard. I took a small amount of Klonopin 9/21-9/22 after being severe burning pain and not sleeping. 9/23 I finally slept, 9/24-27 I was mostly fine after not taking Klonopin (probably still in my system). I stopped sleeping night of 9/27 and 9/28. Now the severe burning is coming back on top of not being able to sleep. I have a feeling if I don't take the Klonopin now this is going to get a lot more severe. I don't want to mess up my logs, but it's been 7 days since I last took Klonopin. 11 days at the same Lexapro dose.

 

On 9/23/2020 at 8:25 AM, dadtobe said:

If you're saying it takes 4 days for a re-instatement to start working then maybe I'm best going for it? The paradoxical reaction is pretty horrible for me. This is really challenging to decide whether to push forward or not. 

 

Dadtobe, you never gave the reinstatement time to work, so if you're going to reinstate again, you'll need to stick with it. Otherwise, you risk kindling. 

 

I would encourage you to re-read your entire thread. You noticed paradoxical reactions during your earlier benzo reinsatement, so it would be good to go through your note about that. 

 

 

 

5 hours ago, dadtobe said:

7:34am - 4.46mg Lexapro

7:49am - sweaty palms, feel more wired, burning back, arms, hard to sit still

 

Does the wired and burning feeling seem to be more related to when you take Lexapro? You have it throughout the day, but does it seem more pronounced closer to when you take the Lexapro?

 

When you first wake up, is this wired and burning feeling less than after you take Lexapro? 

 

Do you feel the Lexapro is too high a dose? 

 

If this is the case, I would be hesitant to try to dampen down Lexapro side effects with a benzo. Might be better to reduce the Lexapro. 

 

Please post your thoughts on this. 

 

 

 

[dadtobe]

@Shep Do you think the extreme burning sensation could be caused by the Lexapro and not the Klonopin? I can't remember when I started getting the burning sensation, but feels like it was after I started Lexapro, but I was still on Klonopin at the time. When I try to search for common symptoms it seems the burning sensation is more common with Lexapro than Klonopin. This is difficult though because regardless I have to taper the Lexapro, but that might be challenging w/o Klonopin if it's causing the burning..I haven't been on Lexapro for long (2-3ish months). It's possible this is just a side-effect of the Lexapro and I'm attributing it to when I was on Klonopin because Klonopin covered up the symptoms... The only reason I may not feel this way is that when I finally tapered Klonopin the burning sensations went with it, at least for 1 month.

[dadtobe]

7 hours ago, Shep said:

Does the wired and burning feeling seem to be more related to when you take Lexapro? You have it throughout the day, but does it seem more pronounced closer to when you take the Lexapro?

 

When you first wake up, is this wired and burning feeling less than after you take Lexapro? 

 

Do you feel the Lexapro is too high a dose? 

 

If this is the case, I would be hesitant to try to dampen down Lexapro side effects with a benzo. Might be better to reduce the Lexapro. 

 

Please post your thoughts on this. 

 

 

Let me evaluate tomorrow. I honestly haven't been tracking this well. I'm all up for dampening down the Lexapro. Especially if it could be causing some of the burning sensation I'm feeling. I haven't been on it long either. Since 7/20 @ 5mg, 7/27 @ 10mg to now 4.46mg @ 9/29. 3 months? I was down to 2.78mg for a sec. I really want off this stuff. If it's causing the burning sensation I definitely want off it. 

[dadtobe]

I know you'll probably say heck no to this, but my Dr. prescribed me 5 Ambien. I'm still having trouble sleeping. I haven't slept in 4 nights. Is this a huge no or something I can use once or twice?