dadtobe: Klonopin, escitalopram, alcohol, Novocaine - need advice

[ChessieCat]

4 minutes ago, dadtobe said:

Not sure what to do. 

 

I suggest that if he makes any suggestions that you check with SA first BEFORE changing anything (ie taking something new and/or changing doses).

[dadtobe]

 

13 minutes ago, ChessieCat said:

 

I suggest that if he makes any suggestions that you check with SA first BEFORE changing anything (ie taking something new and/or changing doses).

 

Ya that's why I posted it. 

[dadtobe]

@Shep

 

Can I get your thoughts on Propranolol and Gabapentin as needed?  Leaning more towards taking Propranolol and probably not Gabapentin at the moment. 

 

@Altostrata

 

How high risk do you feel it would be to jump the Lexapro in just 15 days from being on for 3 months, and currently at 4.46mg.  I know this is not the 10% taper. But there is a concern it's causing me adverse affects and I need to eliminate that from the Klonopin. Prozac we could try to switch to but it's slow and risky from your article you sent me and I could have adverse affects to Prozac. Am I risking not being in the say 90% of people who don't get long-term W/D from jumping Lexapro after 3 months? Or will I 100% be doomed? 

[Shep]

On 10/12/2020 at 6:54 AM, dadtobe said:

5:45AM - .04687 Klonopin

 

On 10/14/2020 at 5:37 AM, dadtobe said:

10:45PM - 0.01536mg Klonopin (when I was stabilizing I was taking a night portion and a morning portion, retrying this hopefully it helps)

. . . . 

3:00AM -  .0.0317mg Klonopin. I’m screwing up my schedule. 

 

On 10/15/2020 at 6:04 AM, dadtobe said:

10/14

10:30PM - 0.01536mg Klonopin

. . . . 

10/15

1AM - .0.0317mg Klonopin

 

Since the burning sensation went away on the days when you were sleeping, I'm not sure this symptom is an adverse reaction to Lexapro. It's the result of poor sleep. And the  changes with the Klonopin more recently might be at least another part of the problem.

 

Until you're able to be consistent with your drugs - even during waves - it's going to be very hard to know what symptoms are coming from what. 

 

  

9 minutes ago, dadtobe said:

@Shep

 

Can I get your thoughts on Propranolol and Gabapentin as needed?  Leaning more towards taking Propranolol and probably not Gabapentin at the moment.

 

 

We don't recommend adding in drugs to deal with withdrawal. A slow taper is what's recommended.

 

Dadtome, you were reporting 100% windows for days at a time. You hit a rough patch at least in part due to sugar, caffeine, and work stress and then started moving the Klonopin around. 

 

If you wish to continue down this path, especially adding in drugs, please work with your doctor, not an online forum. We're not medical professionals here so we can't help you set up a drug cocktail. 

[dadtobe]

1 hour ago, Shep said:

 

 

 

Since the burning sensation went away on the days when you were sleeping, I'm not sure this symptom is an adverse reaction to Lexapro. It's the result of poor sleep. And the  changes with the Klonopin more recently might be at least another part of the problem.

 

Until you're able to be consistent with your drugs - even during waves - it's going to be very hard to know what symptoms are coming from what. 

 

  

 

We don't recommend adding in drugs to deal with withdrawal. A slow taper is what's recommended.

 

Dadtome, you were reporting 100% windows for days at a time. You hit a rough patch at least in part due to sugar, caffeine, and work stress and then started moving the Klonopin around. 

 

If you wish to continue down this path, especially adding in drugs, please work with your doctor, not an online forum. We're not medical professionals here so we can't help you set up a drug cocktail. 

 

I trust you more than I trust the doctors I've found.

[Shep]

1 minute ago, dadtobe said:

 

I trust you more than I trust the doctors I've found.

 

Thanks for that, Dadtobe. I wouldn't be alive today if not for this forum, so I also am a fan of SA's advice. 

[dadtobe]

@Shep Sorry if I'm asking a lot of ?s. Just nervous. Do you think it's possible I could be in tolerance w/d from the small dose of Klonopin I'm on? I guess I'm going through a really bad wave, I guess I worry it may be all for not. 

[Shep]

I don't know, but I'd be very skeptical of tolerance withdrawal. You were doing fine until a wave hit (for reasons already mentioned). 

 

If you could hold a few weeks with NO CHANGES we'd learn a lot more about what's going on. Work on reducing work stress (maybe take some vacation or sick days if you have them), eat clean, and get a long walk in every day. 

 

And hold. 

[dadtobe]

14 minutes ago, Shep said:

If you could hold a few weeks with NO CHANGES we'd learn a lot more about what's going on. Work on reducing work stress (maybe take some vacation or sick days if you have them), eat clean, and get a long walk in every day. 

 

I can do that. I just have a screwed up Klonopin schedule since I took it at night when I'd normally be sleeping. So as I started sleeping the dose moved around. I finally went to taking it in the morning all one dose when all this hit, so I panicked and pushed everything back to roughly where it was thinking maybe taking it split up and at night was better.  That was my logic. Unfortunately I'm in the same boat again, if I sleep the Klonopin dose is going to move around as right now I value sleep over waking up to take the Klonopin. I need to find a set schedule once my sleep resumes that works. 

[dadtobe]

@Shep Sorry hammering you with ?s. I use a really nice scale to weigh my Klonopin doses. I actually take Clonazepam. Do you know if there are any concerns here about the pill maybe not having medication in it evenly distributed? For instance I can make a cut that has less medication than the day before or more? It's such a tiny amount I'm afraid I could be messing this up. I can tell the Lexapro has a shell on it but the Clonazepam doesn't seem to. 

[dadtobe]

@Shep Just so I  know, any risk jumping at this dose and just doing the real withdrawal? The weird paradoxical thing where my body wakes me up right when I fall to sleep is back. I have like really shallow breathing for some reason (I think they call this air hunger) when I'm laying down, feels like anxiety in my stomach sorta but for no particular reason. I don't know if this will correct itself or if it's a paradoxical effect of the Klonopin. It says it's apart of the withdrawal process so I guess this is normal. 

[Altostrata]

Since you've already experienced withdrawal by decreasing Lexapro, it's likely you will get worse withdrawal if you quit it.

 

On 10/15/2020 at 12:39 PM, Altostrata said:

You've had the burning sensation since starting Lexapro? If so, you've had an adverse reaction to Lexapro all along. As you can see, this symptom gets worse shortly after you take it.

 

I suppose you could cross over to Prozac. Best to do that gradually. See The Prozac switch or "bridging" with fluoxetine

 

You should chide your psychiatrist for missing this and your being in misery for so long.

 

 

 

If you're having an adverse reaction to Lexapro, it doesn't make sense to pile on a bunch of drugs to mask it. We don't know what the effects of the other drugs will be, and neither does that psychiatrist.

 

Rather than Prozac, you might want to substitute Celexa, which also comes in a liquid form. It is closely related to Lexapro but not as strong. You might start by adding 1mg for a few days, see how it affects you.

[dadtobe]

I agree, I thought about tapering it but I'm with you. I may be closer to stable now and if I go off it fast it could hurt me for longer. I don't know if I had Lexapro withdrawal, I had withdrawal that was 10 days of intense burning pain and vomiting, nausea. Unfortunately benzo and ssri withdrawal look like the same thing. No clue if I had a setback one month after my benzo taper or whether it was Lexapro taper too fast. 

 

I really hope I didn't re-instate benzo for no reason.  Actually in hindsight I should have just dealt w/ whatever withdrawal it was without re-instating. 

[ChessieCat]

9 hours ago, dadtobe said:

Do you know if there are any concerns here about the pill maybe not having medication in it evenly distributed? For instance I can make a cut that has less medication than the day before or more?

 

See the quote in Post #1 of this topic:  change-in-drug-manufacturer-or-generic-substituted-for-brand-name-drug

 

[dadtobe]

10/16

12:43AM - .0.0317mg Klonopin

2:30am - bowl of cornflakes and milk

2:45am - getting stomachache, back burning, can’t stop flexing legs while laying down, back burning feels slightly less after taking Klonopin. However felt amped up for first 30 minutes or so after taking it.

3:07am - Same symptoms hands and feet also sweaty

5:08am - shaking and vomiting

10am - call with Doctor

10:39am - 2.6mg Lexapro (Dr. Convinced me to go down)

11:21am - able to sit still, focus a bit more

12:46pm - Chicken and noodles (able to eat pretty easily atm)

12:46pm - burning legs / back / chest, able to sit still a bit

1:56pm - neck / shoulders burning. Got an excited anxious butterfly feeling in stomach briefly for no reason. Reminds me of interdose withdrawal when last on Benzos. 

2:00pm - Laid down and almost fell asleep but was immediately woken up by stomach fluttering anxiety. Made me nauseous

3:03pm - noticing I have that electricity charged feeling in my chest that I had when I thought Klonopin was paradoxical…..

3:20pm - getting a headache 

3:45pm - Tylenol 500mg for headache.. also seeing if it helps burning

3:57pm - hands sweaty

4:11pm - feeling mild anxiety for no reason, I think this goes w/ the fluttering anxiety when I try to sleep

4:30pm - if I take deep breathes I can feel the anxiety / lightness in my stomach area

5:00pm - took 1.86mg Lexapro (Altostrata convinced me not to listen to the Dr)

5:30pm - Broccoli and beef w/ rice

6:30pm - tried to sleep

9:45pm - took 0.047324083mg Klonopin (going to keep Klonopin at this time and full amount)

 

The paradoxical Klonopin feeling I think is actually withdrawal and not the Klonopin itself. Seemed to go away after taking Klonopin tonight. 

 

This was a really bad consistency day, please don’t say anything I know. Trying to listen to Doctors and forum for advice. Hard to know what to do. 

 

10/17

2:58am - still can’t sleep, burning doesn’t seem as intense tonight. Shaky, pacing, throwing up

 

4 nights basically without sleep now   

[dadtobe]

Hey all, unfortunately things are just getting progressively worse for me. I ended up updosing on the Klonopin a bit yesterday against your advice. I'm unfortunately not going to be able to be the best candidate for you guys as I keep failing over and over again to try and get consistent, I feel like I'm starting to waste your time. I'm going to try and deal w/ this on my own. You guys have given me a lot of great advice already and I'm going to do my best to keep your advice in mind as I progress through this. 

[Altostrata]

I didn't tell you to reduce Lexapro. I said you would get worse withdrawal if you did. I suggested adding Celexa in preparation for a switch.

 

Good luck.

[dadtobe]

@Altostrata

 

How confident are you that this is Lexapro withdrawal versus say a Klonopin setback after being off a month, versus say just my anxiety returning (which is what everyone keeps telling me)? The other symptoms point to withdrawal of something like insomnia, sweaty feet, pacing. The burning sensation is an outlier here though. When I say burning, I would say the pain level is like a 7 all the time, and can go to a 10 where I'm basically keeled over but can't lay down at times. I could remove the Klonopin from the equation but I have a feeling that the pain is going to go to an 11+ if I do that. 

[Shep]

20 hours ago, dadtobe said:

Hey all, unfortunately things are just getting progressively worse for me. I ended up updosing on the Klonopin a bit yesterday against your advice. I'm unfortunately not going to be able to be the best candidate for you guys as I keep failing over and over again to try and get consistent, I feel like I'm starting to waste your time. I'm going to try and deal w/ this on my own. You guys have given me a lot of great advice already and I'm going to do my best to keep your advice in mind as I progress through this. 

 

Dadtobe, this is best. We really have done our best to convey setting up a set schedule, but you are determined to make daily changes. 

 

We cannot advise you when you do this. Please stop asking us questions until you are ready to go with SA's protocol. This site isn't for everyone. 

 

You may want to join Benzo Buddies. It's a much larger site and a free-for-all when it comes to how people come off their drugs. But you may benefit from the social support. 

[dadtobe]

55 minutes ago, Shep said:

Dadtobe, this is best. We really have done our best to convey setting up a set schedule, but you are determined to make daily changes. 

 

We cannot advise you when you do this. Please stop asking us questions until you are ready to go with SA's protocol. This site isn't for everyone. 

 

You may want to join Benzo Buddies. It's a much larger site and a free-for-all when it comes to how people come off their drugs. But you may benefit from the social support. 

 

@Shep

 

I finally directed my wife to read my posts. She's going to work with me on making sure I keep my schedules. You know me best, once I can be consistent and hopefully stabilize, I'm hoping I come back to get your advice for the rest of this process. If you'll have me anyway. Thanks

[dadtobe]

nevermind

[Altostrata]

16 hours ago, dadtobe said:

@Altostrata

 

How confident are you that this is Lexapro withdrawal versus say a Klonopin setback after being off a month, versus say just my anxiety returning (which is what everyone keeps telling me)? The other symptoms point to withdrawal of something like insomnia, sweaty feet, pacing. The burning sensation is an outlier here though. When I say burning, I would say the pain level is like a 7 all the time, and can go to a 10 where I'm basically keeled over but can't lay down at times. I could remove the Klonopin from the equation but I have a feeling that the pain is going to go to an 11+ if I do that. 

 

Pretty obvious you have withdrawal or an adverse reaction to something. You don't get a bushel of symptoms plus an outlier all of a sudden from "relapse".

 

However, your constantly messing around with your drugs and inability to maintain consistency makes it very hard for us to help you. If you'd prefer to work with a doctor, please do.

[dadtobe]

Thanks Altostrata. I know I'm on day 2 now of being consistent. Actually got a window today. I'll be back when I'm consistent with everything for at least a week. Thanks again for all the help. 

[dadtobe]

@ShepUpdates:

 

I've been taking Klonopin and Lexapro regularly now at the same time every day. 3 doses of Klonopin at 12:45pm, 3:45pm and 7:40pm with the last being largest. Lexapro at 9:30AM

 

4.46 Lexapro and .069 Klonopin

 

 

I was sleeping between 2 and 8 hours a night. Wasn't too great, but was at least sleeping and no burning pain.

 

Unfortunately fell back into a wave today where I have burning coming back again, not sure I'll sleep tonight as last 3 nights I barely got any real sleep. It's been about a month now since I re-instated Klonopin.  I was stable for a second there after I went up on Klonopin but again fell back into a wave. Is it pretty normal to still be having waves after re-instating a month in?

[dadtobe]

@Shep

 

I know this is crazy, but is .069mg Klonopin safe enough to jump from? I know it's not as low as you'd recommend. I just feel like I'm wasting my time trying to get stable rather than just facing reality that I'm going to have to go through a bad w/d. Or is the only way at this point to do a long taper?

[ChessieCat]

From what I understand with benzos is that if you jump off at that dose and get withdrawal and then decided to go back on it.  It's the frequent chopping and changing (going and off and on and off a few times) that makes things worse.

 

Shep, if I'm wrong please let us know.  Thanks.

[dadtobe]

1 hour ago, ChessieCat said:

From what I understand with benzos is that if you jump off at that dose and get withdrawal and then decided to go back on it.  It's the frequent chopping and changing (going and off and on and off a few times) that makes things worse.

 

Shep, if I'm wrong please let us know.  Thanks.

 

I'm pretty sure I'm severely kindled because of this already which is why I'm having such horrible w/d symptoms even as a short-term user. I know the next time I go off is the last time. I can't touch the stuff ever again, it's all going in the trash.

[Shep]

2 hours ago, dadtobe said:

I know this is crazy, but is .069mg Klonopin safe enough to jump from?

 

No. You likely won't get seizures from jumping off at .069 mg but it's still too high. 

 

2 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

From what I understand with benzos is that if you jump off at that dose and get withdrawal and then decided to go back on it.  It's the frequent chopping and changing (going and off and on and off a few times) that makes things worse.

 

Shep, if I'm wrong please let us know.  Thanks.

 

You're exactly right, CC. 

[dadtobe]

@Shep What do I need to get myself to, to jump?

 

 

[Shep]

25 minutes ago, dadtobe said:

@Shep What do I need to get myself to, to jump?

 

 

 

I would stay on the Klonopin until you're off the antidepressant. Please see:

 

Taking multiple psych drugs? Which drug to taper first?

 

Once you're off the AD, then you'll taper the Klonopin.  Your final jump dose will depend on your symptoms. 

 

[dadtobe]

At 10% of the AD at 4.46mg per month, I'll be on Klonopin for another year or 2. After being a short-term user for only 3 months prior to all this re-instatement. *sigh* What would you recommend my taper schedule look like? I'm at 4.46mg Lexapro and .069mg Klonopin

[Shep]

You could start the Lexapro taper off with the Brassmonkey Slide:

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

 

Maybe start out with a 5% reduction per month and see how you do. If the Lexapro is stimulating, you may see improvements in your sleep. The concept of "adverse reaction" was mentioned a few times on your thread. 

 

At some point as you decrease your Lexapro, you might be able to switch over and taper off that last little bit of Klonopin, but I wouldn't advise doing so until you are seeing improvements and the Lexapro dose is a lot lower. As discussed earlier in your thread, Lexapro is a very potent SSRI and very concentrated in the lower doses. 

[dadtobe]

@Altostrata

 

@Shep

 

It's been a 20ish days or so since I've posted. I had a window and immediately flew out to an outpatient wellness center that practices the Ashton method. I needed mental support if I had another wave since I was beginning to panic every time a wave hit. The place I'm at does an awesome job of this. The doctor has a lot of experience tapering people off Benzos. Anyway, they put me on an aggressive Lexapro taper schedule and I just trusted them simply because of their experience. They had me drop from 4mg to 2mg of Lexapro in the span of about 8 days. I was following your 10% rule until I went there. Needless to say, I'm pretty confident now that I never had benzo withdrawal at all, and that I'm sensitive to the Lexapro. The aggressive taper has me going back to all the usual symptoms last night of nausea, vomiting, headache, tachycardia, insomnia, and the weird burning skin after being stable for 3 or so weeks. I hate to ask since I went another direction, but anything I can do at this point besides just hold at 2mg of Lexapro? Maybe slight up dose? Full schedule of Lexapro is attached, the 2nd column is the mg of Lexapro, 4th column is Klonopin. I should have listened to you all, I thought I found a good place and thought I was going through Benzo withdrawal but pretty certain now it was the Lexapro now. I was tapering Klonopin from .06mg to .03mg but honestly in 3 weeks I noticed nothing from it. So really don't think it's that anymore.

 

 

[Altostrata]

What did this no doubt expensive outpatient wellness center tell you about your Lexapro withdrawal symptoms?

[ChessieCat]

6 hours ago, dadtobe said:

Anyway, they put me on an aggressive Lexapro taper schedule and I just trusted them simply because of their experience. They had me drop from 4mg to 2mg of Lexapro in the span of about 8 days. I was following your 10% rule until I went there. Needless to say, I'm pretty confident now that I never had benzo withdrawal at all, and that I'm sensitive to the Lexapro. The aggressive taper has me going back to all the usual symptoms last night of nausea, vomiting, headache, tachycardia, insomnia, and the weird burning skin after being stable for 3 or so weeks. I hate to ask since I went another direction, but anything I can do at this point besides just hold at 2mg of Lexapro? Maybe slight up dose?

 

7 hours ago, dadtobe said:

I should have listened to you all

 

Assuming that you have decided to do this:

 

I suggest that you read Post #1 of this topic, much of which is relevant to updosing.

 

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

 

If you do decide to updose note that it takes about 4 days for a dose to get to full level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.  It's better to start with a tiny increase than to risk taking too much.  And you will need to be patient (not "a" patient - actually you need to unpatient yourself AND learn and use Non-drug techniques to cope) and give the dose a chance.  If you feel some improvement you could hold on that dose at least for another week before reassessing your symptoms and their severity.  If no improvement after one week you could increase a tiny bit more.

 

Only make one change at a time.

 

PLEASE NOTE:  The idea of updosing is not to get rid of symptoms completely, or get you back to the way you were before, but to reduce the withdrawal symptoms to a bearable level.  Compare yourself to how you felt at your worst, not how you felt at your worst or how you wish you could feel.  An improvement is a good sign.

 

I suggest that you keep daily symptom notes because these helps you to be more objective and you might see a tiny improvement that you don't feel.

 

And whatever you decide to do, you are probably going to need to hold for quite some time, possibly 3-4 months or maybe longer.

 

It's up to you whether you wish to follow the suggestions that the SA staff make.  However, the mods prefer to spend our limited time helping members who want to follow the suggestions and not to waste time providing information and suggestions to members who decide to "do it their own way". 

 

By the way, just to give you an idea of the time the mods spend helping members, this post that I've just made to you has taken me about 25 minutes to compile.

[Shep]

19 hours ago, dadtobe said:

I had a window and immediately flew out to an outpatient wellness center that practices the Ashton method. I needed mental support if I had another wave since I was beginning to panic every time a wave hit. The place I'm at does an awesome job of this.

 

It sounds like you're prioritizing having someone else deal with your anxiety, even at the risk of taking bad advice. And then coming here asking us to fix the damage. 

 

And to waste a perfectly good window to do so. This is a pattern, as you've had good windows in the past, only to become impatient. 

 

12 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

And whatever you decide to do, you are probably going to need to hold for quite some time, possibly 3-4 months or maybe longer.

 

It's up to you whether you wish to follow the suggestions that the SA staff make.  However, the mods prefer to spend our limited time helping members who want to follow the suggestions and not to waste time providing information and suggestions to members who decide to "do it their own way". 

 

By the way, just to give you an idea of the time the mods spend helping members, this post that I've just made to you has taken me about 25 minutes to compile.

 

ChessieCat has given the advice you need to updose, if that's what you choose to do, and the advice to hold for 3-4 months. That means building up your non-drug coping skills and acceptance that this is a very long and difficult process and you need to take responsibility for handling your symptoms without panicking.