DreamingofHealing: needing advice

[DreamingofHealing]

Hi folks,

 

Need advise as I fear my situation is not improving and years after first coming off Mirtazapine, I feel like I'm being pushed back on to try another drug to try and stabilise me.

 

I've just started to taking citalopram at 2mg. Symptoms are.as worse as ever.

 

Was on Mirtazapine at 40mg for a year came off very quickly with doctors advise. Whoke set of new symptoms arrived from my original illness plus I was developing a phobia of people while on thr drug. This persists today. 

 

Was off Mirtazapine for 6mths went back on and back up to 40mg. Symptoms just seemed to get worse and my energy levels were being depleted very quickly, felt like i was dragging my body around. 

 

Came back off very quickly again after 3 years- still no idea about withdrawals at this stage. I've been basically bed bound since 2017. 

 

Tried Duloxetine for a year. My mood improved but my sensitivities grew and I was still bed bound. 

 

Came off Duloxetine about a year ago. 

 

Had been bed bound since then with a diagnosis of ME. 

 

Was starting to see little bits of improvements (mould was an issue in our previous house) since we moved house in May but my nervous system was still extremely sensitive.

 

My wife is at her wits end and we talked about trying Citalopram to see if that will stabilise me. I an fearful of losing my family through this as they don't believe in withdrawals and believe a lot of this is to with my past history. I know in my heart of hearts its to with the drugs. 

 

Anyone offer any advice what I shoukd do here? I'm about 5 days in to taking Citalopram at 2mg. I'm fulk of dread at the minute.

 

 

[ChessieCat]

Hi DreamingofHealing and welcome to SA,

 

To get you started please create your drug signature.  Please include ALL drugs/supplements, current AND previous.  Follow these instructions:

 

Instructions:  Withdrawal History Signature
Account Settings – Create or Edit a signature

 

Once we have more information we will be better able to offer suggestions.

 

This is your own Introduction topic which is the best place to ask questions about your own situation and journal your progress.  This way your history is in one place and you will not need to repeat yourself.  Also, the mods regularly check for new posts in the Introduction forum.  Because of how busy SA is and the large number of members if you post elsewhere the mods might not see the post.

[ChessieCat]

10 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

Whoke set of new symptoms arrived from my original illness plus I was developing a phobia of people while on thr drug.

 

What was the reason you started on the very first drug?

[DreamingofHealing]

Anxiety. Big time Anxiety and PTSD. Looking back i probably wasn't on thr drug long enough on the beginning as I only just started counselling and came off the meds about few weeks after thinking I've got a handle on this. 

 

All I want right now is to stabilise my very fragile system. I have a suspicion the toxins from the drug are mostly at play, but very hard to get a balance of stabilising the system and dealing with the toxins. Ill update my drug signature as soon as I can. Thank you ChessieCat  for replying! 

 

THIS IS MY HISTORY:

 

Started on Mirtazapine around 2013 for a year. Came off too quickly but had no idea re withdrawals and went on advise of Doctor. Went from 40mg to zero in a couple of weeks.

Went back on Mirtazapine after 6mths after grief in family. Felt awful after reinstated but was told this was normal and would go away. Stayed on drug for 3 years but wasn't feeling like myself and felt from detached from others and generally wasn't good and people often commented how j wasn't myself.

Then started to come off the drug again, again unaware of withdrawals, and that's when the chronic fatigue kicked in. I've been bed bound since 2017 and tried to go back on Duloxetine in 2018. Went up to the top dosage.

My mood improved however my energy levels never did. And I was still stuck in bed. Came off that drug fairly quickly about a year ago and have been bed bound since then as well. Symptoms have been very severe at times and can't stand being in thr same room as my wife and two children.

It's got that bad I've been encouraged to try citalopram in liquid form to see if it some how stabilises me. I'm fearful of losing my family as they don't quite believe in withdrawals and point to the traumas I've experienced.. 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by ChessieCat
resized font

[ChessieCat]

August 2018 - October 2019 Duloxetine 90mg. Slower taper. Down to 60mg for 6months and then 30mg for 4 weeks. Then off

 

Q:  Did you last take Duloxetine Oct 2019?  Or did you stop at a different time.  Please clarify this in your signature.

 

Present  Nov 2020  citalopram 2mg

 

Please add the date to your drug signature.  Thank you.

[ChessieCat]

Thank you for updating your drug signature.

 

There is no need to repeat your history.  We can see it.  I will hide the second post you made repeating the information.

[ChessieCat]

I think you deleted the drug name here.  I think it's citalopram.  Please amend.  Thanks.

 

Present   29th October 2020 2mg - ideally looking to stabilise something. Using liquid form this time and hoping to increase to stabilise.

 

It takes about 4 days for a dose to get to full level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.

 

Have you noticed any improvement in your symptoms since you started taking 2mg citalopram on 29 Oct 2020?

 

What improvements have you noticed?

 

What, currently, are your worst symptoms?  Have they improved at all?

[Altostrata]

Hello, Dreaming.

 

What current symptoms do you attribute to going off psychiatric drugs?

 

Why did you decide to go off duloxetine?

 

How do you feel having taken 2mg citalopram for a few days?

[DreamingofHealing]

On Duloxetine my quality of life wasn't improving. I had been taking them to help with mood and sleep to help me through chronic fatigue. They helped my mood but the fatigue didn't improve. 

 

Was starting to be sensitive to the thing, and was floored for a week after a minor dental surgery with a holistic dentist. 

 

The chronic fatigue started not long after a virus while on Mirtazapine the second time. 

 

The symptoms coming off the drug have mainly the feeling of things not being real and not being able to connect with people. Even I really think of a happy time in my life or a time when I was fit and strong, my body doesn't respond accordingly. 

 

Anger and rage for no apparent reason is another symptom ive exp.experienced.Also nausea and a constant noise in my head, like varying sounds, completely different to anything like Tinatus I've had before.

 

Another changes I've noticed is being hyper sensitive to noise, light and electrical equipment. At times can't stand being around my kids, which is devastating. 

 

My muscles would contract into funny shapes at times, it would almost feel as if my muscles were twisting around my spine. Plus the food sensitivities,.migranes. Even my eye muscles would feel like they are stiff..Pressure in my head. 

 

Now I'm open to the idea that somehow my stress and anxiety got worse while on Mirtazapine and the house of cards came down. 

 

At the time I was going through therapy to help with trauma and lots of things came up in those sessions. But I never seemed to make any progress. Again, its unclear whether the drug or just I was putting a mental block on things. 

 

Other things I've noticed is that I seem to get recouurring thoughts about past events that for some reason my brain just keeps on replaying. This could be seen as normal of course. Buy I know deep inside I juat want to get on with my life. 

 

On Citalopram- anxiety has went through the roof and crying for no reason. Dry eyes, and physically was sick. My muscles also seem to go into funny contractions. Particularly around my neck and back. But then there would small moments of feeling calmer. I really want this to work and hope that somehow the stress and anxiety brought on about several traumas has just got a bit worse. We have recently moved house, so that life changing event could account for some of this. 

 

Stick with Citalopram?

[manymoretodays]

Hi Dreaming and welcome,

Did you ever have a good response to Citalopram?

I noticed the quick taper off, after possibly a months use in 2018, so thought I would ask.

 

And glad to see you starting low and going real slow.

2 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

I really want this to work and hope that somehow the stress and anxiety brought on about several traumas has just got a bit worse. We have recently moved house, so that life changing event could account for some of this. 

And yes, moving is rated as one of those huge stressors.  So I'm glad you noticed that.

 

And then today is day 8 of the 2 mg dose?

 

2 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

On Citalopram- anxiety has went through the roof and crying for no reason. Dry eyes, and physically was sick. My muscles also seem to go into funny contractions. Particularly around my neck and back. But then there would small moments of feeling calmer.

It may be helpful for you to do some Notes/daily symptom logs at this point to help decide if this is going to be beneficial.  I'll give you the link:

Keep daily notes of drug schedule and symptoms to track patterns and progress

It's explained nicely in the first post ^  Mainly just note the time of day on the left, and then on the right just get down your medication by name and dose, also any other medications or supplements taken too, name and dose.  Also on the right note your symptoms as they seem to occur throughout the day.

 

I do spy small moments of feeling calmer and so hope there will be more of that.

 

Oh best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[DreamingofHealing]

Thank you very much for your response. 

 

Yes this is day 8 of Citalopram. Had funny spasms in my head today. Ill use the log to keep track of my symptoms.

I also had sickness and diarrhoea. Not sure if that's related or not. 

I did feel a little calmer after tonights dose although still feeling a bit spacey. 

I've started CBD oil today which helped some of the symptoms. 

Last time on Citalopram I started on 10mg and was able to do more but didn't really give it a chance to work. 

[Altostrata]

What time of day (o'clock) do you take citalopram? How do you feel before and after you take it? Are you taking any other drugs or supplements?

[DreamingofHealing]

I take it around about 4pm every day. 

I feel anxious about taking. 

I feel like my brain is working really hard to operate before I take it. After I take it I have a spike of anxiety/overwhelm and then there's a moment of calm. Then it feels like it wears off quickly (the calm effect).

I'm taking glutamine for leaky gut, taracyn for liver support which seems to calm my anxiety after taking it. I've also just started taking CBD oil and valerian root at night.

[DreamingofHealing]

Update from today's dose:

 

New symptoms of muscle ache in my right arm then an intense muscle spasm that twisted my body into an unusual position. Very painful and difficult to breath. This lasted 5mins then stopped. Also had eye stiffness and flashing lights in my eyes. Eye stiffness is still on going hours after taking the dose. 

 

Is it possible for serotonin syndrome to be at play here? Even though its been around a year since Duloxetine. 

[ChessieCat]

Serotonin syndrome is dose related.  Either from too high a dose of one serotonergic drug or taking 2 or more drugs which affects the serotonin.

 

5 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

I've also just started taking CBD oil and valerian root at night.

 

[DreamingofHealing]

Just to clarify, are you saying it may have something to do with the other supplements? Symptoms don’t appear after taking the ones I’ve mentioned. But understand and acknowledge the nature of the sensitive nature of the system. 

 

Taking yesterday’s dose had the same affect but was relieved when I managed to burp! Trapped wind almost. Aching muscles were very sore last night but were relieved by CBD oil.

 

Just to clarify, how do these drugs work? I get the Seratonin increase, but is that meant to mean I feel calmer or increase of energy? I had a thought the drugs were some how giving me too much seratonin in the past and have gassed out my system. Be good to get some reassurance on that one. 

 

Sleeping seems to be getting better every night. Energy levels next day are quite low. Bed bound mostly. 

 

[DreamingofHealing]

Update: I’m feeling very sleepy and achey after minimal doses, but the paradox is that the brain seems to function a little better at times. 

 

Any suggestions how long I give this? 

 

 

Thanks for your support everyone. 

 

Graeme

[DreamingofHealing]

Hi guys,

 

Wondering if someone could respond so I can sound of you?

 

3 weeks in on Citalopram at 2mg, sleeping and mood have improved.. Brain fog has also got better.  However, everytime i take the med i can feel the symptoms of WD getting worse, and i have been looking a little more drawn in on the face. 

 

Where to go from here? Any thoughts? 

Do I try to stabilise at this level for a bit longer, or do you try to come back down. Don't want to get to another stage where I'm exhausting my nervous system even more. The fatigue is bad enough to have made my bed bound for the last 3 weeks with a lot of sleeping of 15 hours a day at times. 

[ChessieCat]

On 11/8/2020 at 7:41 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

Is it possible for serotonin syndrome to be at play here? Even though its been around a year since Duloxetine. 

 

On 11/8/2020 at 7:44 AM, ChessieCat said:

Serotonin syndrome is dose related.  Either from too high a dose of one serotonergic drug or taking 2 or more drugs which affects the serotonin.

 

5 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

3 weeks in on Citalopram at 2mg,

 

Unlikely to be serotonin syndrome at such a low dose.

[ChessieCat]

On 11/8/2020 at 2:28 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

I've also just started taking CBD oil and valerian root at night.

 

6 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

The fatigue is bad enough to have made my bed bound for the last 3 weeks with a lot of sleeping of 15 hours a day at times. 

 

6 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

3 weeks in on Citalopram at 2mg,

 

Q:  Are you consuming any alcohol?

 

You have made 3 changes over the last 3 weeks.  It muddies the waters and means that it is difficult to know what is causing any issues.  However a drug interaction check shows:

Interactions between your drugs

Moderate

Applies to: citalopram, cannabidiol

Using citalopram together with cannabidiol may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications.

 

Moderate

Applies to: citalopram, valerian

Using citalopram together with valerian may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications.

 

Moderate
Applies to: valerian, cannabidiol

Using valerian together with cannabidiol may increase side effects such as dizziness, drowsiness, confusion, and difficulty concentrating. Some people, especially the elderly, may also experience impairment in thinking, judgment, and motor coordination. You should avoid or limit the use of alcohol while being treated with these medications.

 

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by ChessieCat

[DreamingofHealing]

Thanks for replying CC, much appreciated.

 

i haven’t touched Alcohol since starting Mirtz back 2012, a lot of my sensitivities started at this time too.  Haven’t been able to touch even something like green tea! 

 

Just to clarify the Valerian root is long term sleeping aid. Started it years ago.

 

The CBD oil is worth thinking about however, though none of the side effects that are listed are appropriate.

 

Is the increased Sleepiness something you have heard other members mention this? 

 

From what I’ve mentioned so far, does any of it resemble WD? 

 

Also, has anyone mentioned on the boards about WIFI sensitivity? It’s been another long standing sensitivity I’ve had. 

 

 

 

[ChessieCat]

Q:  What other symptoms do you currently have?

 

Q:  Have they improved a bit?

 

Q:  Are you still bed bound like you had been?  Or has that improved?

 

You made a 25% reduction 2 or 3 days ago.  It takes about 4 days for a dose change to get to full level in the blood and a bit longer for it to register in the brain.

[DreamingofHealing]

I have this general feeling of shock in my body.(pressure mostly in my chest) Sometimes trembling, sensitivity to light and sound, at times difficult to speak or hold a conversation for a long period of time. Fuzzyness in my eyes, disassociation, feeling of things not been real, periods of anger, rage. TMJ. Muscles feel like they are twisting into unusual positions at times. Crying spells. I’ve been trying a lot of the mind body techniques, headspace app, breathing exercises, but nothing seems to really help the stress. It seems to start when it wants to and stops when it wants to. 

 

Only thing that’s improved was sleep and mood at times. 

 

No being bed bound has got worse. I was having periods where I managed out the house for a takeaway cup of tea with my wife, but finding very difficult to move my body. Even more so than before. Aches and pains and flu like feeling really get worse after taking the dose of Citalopram. 

 

Feels like there is poison in my blood stream. 

 

Plan an is to come off this as i just don’t feel it’s right for me and probably creating more anxiety. 

 

3 weeks in, is a jump from 1.5mg too much?

 

If there is WD, I’m assuming taking Citalopram won’t  make the symptoms go away or manage them any better?

 

My general experience with what I’ve tried is that I just seem to get any improvement on them and then the nervous system is a mess when I come off them. So much so I can hardly tolerate my kids now! 

 

How long its going to take I don’t know, but the system is such a mess it feels the best thing to do is just leave it alone and try and make as good a life as I can for myself and hope that improvements gradually happen.

 

At heart I’m a fun loving person that loves many different aspects of life including my children, this experience has just floored me. 

[manymoretodays]

On 11/3/2020 at 6:41 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

Then started to come off the drug again, again unaware of withdrawals, and that's when the chronic fatigue kicked in. I've been bed bound since 2017 and tried to go back on Duloxetine in 2018. Went up to the top dosage.

My mood improved however my energy levels never did. And I was still stuck in bed. Came off that drug fairly quickly about a year ago and have been bed bound since then as well. Symptoms have been very severe at times and can't stand being in thr same room as my wife and two children.

It's got that bad I've been encouraged to try citalopram in liquid form to see if it some how stabilises me. I'm fearful of losing my family as they don't quite believe in withdrawals and point to the traumas I've experienced.. 

 

 

On 11/5/2020 at 5:00 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

On Duloxetine my quality of life wasn't improving. I had been taking them to help with mood and sleep to help me through chronic fatigue. They helped my mood but the fatigue didn't improve. 

 

Was starting to be sensitive to the thing, and was floored for a week after a minor dental surgery with a holistic dentist. 

 

The chronic fatigue started not long after a virus while on Mirtazapine the second time. 

 

The symptoms coming off the drug have mainly the feeling of things not being real and not being able to connect with people. Even I really think of a happy time in my life or a time when I was fit and strong, my body doesn't respond accordingly. 

 

Anger and rage for no apparent reason is another symptom ive exp.experienced.Also nausea and a constant noise in my head, like varying sounds, completely different to anything like Tinatus I've had before.

 

Another changes I've noticed is being hyper sensitive to noise, light and electrical equipment. At times can't stand being around my kids, which is devastating. 

 

My muscles would contract into funny shapes at times, it would almost feel as if my muscles were twisting around my spine. Plus the food sensitivities,.migranes. Even my eye muscles would feel like they are stiff..Pressure in my head. 

 

Now I'm open to the idea that somehow my stress and anxiety got worse while on Mirtazapine and the house of cards came down. 

 

At the time I was going through therapy to help with trauma and lots of things came up in those sessions. But I never seemed to make any progress. Again, its unclear whether the drug or just I was putting a mental block on things. 

 

Other things I've noticed is that I seem to get recouurring thoughts about past events that for some reason my brain just keeps on replaying. This could be seen as normal of course. Buy I know deep inside I juat want to get on with my life. 

 

On Citalopram- anxiety has went through the roof and crying for no reason. Dry eyes, and physically was sick. My muscles also seem to go into funny contractions. Particularly around my neck and back. But then there would small moments of feeling calmer. I really want this to work and hope that somehow the stress and anxiety brought on about several traumas has just got a bit worse. We have recently moved house, so that life changing event could account for some of this. 

 

Stick with Citalopram?

 

On 11/21/2020 at 9:36 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

3 weeks in on Citalopram at 2mg, sleeping and mood have improved.. Brain fog has also got better.  However, everytime i take the med i can feel the symptoms of WD getting worse, and i have been looking a little more drawn in on the face. 

 

Where to go from here? Any thoughts? 

Do I try to stabilise at this level for a bit longer, or do you try to come back down. Don't want to get to another stage where I'm exhausting my nervous system even more. The fatigue is bad enough to have made my bed bound for the last 3 weeks with a lot of sleeping of 15 hours a day at times. 

 

On 11/22/2020 at 11:40 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

Also, has anyone mentioned on the boards about WIFI sensitivity? It’s been another long standing sensitivity I’ve had. 

 

On 11/23/2020 at 5:47 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

Plan an is to come off this as i just don’t feel it’s right for me and probably creating more anxiety. 

 

3 weeks in, is a jump from 1.5mg too much?

 

If there is WD, I’m assuming taking Citalopram won’t  make the symptoms go away or manage them any better?

 

Hi DreamingofHealing,

With reinstatements, sometimes, just a improvement in WD symptoms is the best one can expect.  And from what you post, it appears that you have seen some improvements, while also seeing some worsening of symptoms?

 

After reinstating or updosing, how long to stabilize?

 

Are We There Yet? How Long Is Withdrawal Going To Take?

You'll see the different sections in the first post there.  # 5, 9, and 11 may be helpful to look at now.

 

I also wanted to share this, from the BeyondMeds site too, as it does relate to your situation:

Protracted psych drug withdrawal syndrome, chronic illness, CFS, Fibromyalgia: it's autonomic nervous system dysfunction

And then also, What is withdrawal syndrome?

And then scroll on down, and more indexed posts, particularly dysautonomia and protracted withdrawal symptoms, why?  may be of interest.

 

You sound pretty well versed already, and I am so sorry for how tough it has been, to date, for you, but perhaps some of that will help with family understanding and greater harmony.  That's my thinking behind all the links in this regard.

 

And it's unclear to me, at this point, if the improvements you have seen thus far, make it worth your while just to stay put with the citalopram 1.5 mg dose.  If the improvements are there, even if slight......if it was me, I'd stay put.  You may hit a nice withdrawal normal type of stability, and then want to wait several months before even thinking about tapering.

 

But if the reverse is true, and you feel overall worse then:

Another option, rather than just jumping off from the 1.5 mg dose, and a better one, at least I think so, would be to taper.........and use the:

Why taper by 10% of my dosage? guidelines

You've got the liquid, which is good, and so you could, if needed, further dilute it so that you can make just 10% reductions from each previous dose.  Depending on your oral syringe too, you may not even need further dilution to do this.  I'll include the Tips for tapering off Celexa(citalopram) topic here too.  In case you need to refer to it.

Also:  Important topics in the Tapering forum and FAQ

 

If you want to taper by a bit more than 10%, and carefully observe, and are certain you are worse overall now........then I might do that, if it was me.

 

Hmmm, on the Wifi sensitivity.  Do you mean online time, screen time, or just being in the vicinity of Wifi?  I know that too much screen time, certainly can be overstimulating for anyone, and most expecially us who are extra sensitive due to WD. 

 

And then some of your neuroemotions are often what so many of us go through too.  I hope that gives you some comfort.  I know, for me, and I am almost 4 years clear of medications/drugs now, I found it best NOT to respond to others how I wanted to a lot.  I had to learn to pause.  And now......some of the real uncomfortable stuff, in the way of feelings and emotions are improved.  They really are.  Life is just easier.........finally!!!

This is all such a marathon for some of us.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

and apologies on the extensive quoting!!!!  It helped me pull your whole picture together a bit more.  🙉

 

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by manymoretodays
a bit more on tapering

[Altostrata]

Please do not worry about serotonin syndrome or wifi sensitivity.

 

On 11/21/2020 at 8:36 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

3 weeks in on Citalopram at 2mg, sleeping and mood have improved.. Brain fog has also got better.  However, everytime i take the med i can feel the symptoms of WD getting worse, and i have been looking a little more drawn in on the face. 

 

What do you mean by "i can feel the symptoms of WD getting worse"? What symptoms?

 

On 11/23/2020 at 4:47 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

Only thing that’s improved was sleep and mood at times. 

 

Improved sleep is a significant improvement.

 

Quote

Down to 1.5mg 21st November 

 

Do you feel better or worse since you decreased citalopram?

 

If I were you, I would continue to take 1.5mg citalopram at the same time each day for the time being. What we often see is that people are too sensitized to take a larger amount of a drug, but a very small amount can give them enough relief, they very slowly stabilize. This can take some months.

[DreamingofHealing]

Thank you very much for your replies Altostrata and MMTs.

 

Mentally don't feel as great on 1.5mg as i did on 2mg. Sleep has been more disrupted. Now wondering whether 2mg might be the dose to try and stabilise on. Looking back to just before i did the drop, Saturday was the best I've had in months, possibly even a year or more since being on Duloxetine. Realise I'm going back and forward on this, but it genuinely feels like a crap shoot at times! But thats helped put things into perspective that it could take months to stabilise. At this point, stabilising on something is all I'm looking for to then try very slowly taper again, whenever that maybe, 

 

Ftom what CC said, it can take 4 days for a change to take affect so hopefully i can go back to 2mg without much in the way of adverse reactions. 

 

The fatigue was the worse part that seem to get worse, and it wasn't great to begin with! But maybe over time this will stabilise like you have said. And sensitivity to lights increased and also i found myself physically throwing up a couple of times after eating (this is a brand new symptom). 

 

 

 

 

[manymoretodays]

Hi Dreaming,

What time do you take the citalopram?

And then another option, rather than go all the way up to 2 mg again, might be to just go 1/2 way up, or up to 1.75 mg and then do another good HOLD, while keeping some notes:  Keep daily notes of drug schedule and symptoms to track patterns and progress

These can be really helpful.  And offer a bit more, in the way of objective data, around your specifics, medication and relation to any symptoms.

 

On 11/25/2020 at 5:28 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

Looking back to just before i did the drop, Saturday was the best I've had in months, possibly even a year or more since being on Duloxetine. Realise I'm going back and forward on this, but it genuinely feels like a crap shoot at times! But thats helped put things into perspective that it could take months to stabilise. At this point, stabilising on something is all I'm looking for to then try very slowly taper again, whenever that maybe, 

 

I know.  Stabilization, yes, what we all crave.  Keep in mind too, that you've had some ups and down with medications, in the last couple of years.  And it does take time for your system to regain homeostasis.  My fingers are crossed and so hoping you hit a nice plateau here very soon.

 

When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made.  The CNS likes stability. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

[DreamingofHealing]

Thanks MMT. I had already went back up to 2mg before you had sent a message. A bit ropey at the minute but I'm just going to leave it for now and hopefully will stabilise at some point. I recognise this might be an impossible question to answer, but when we say months to stabilise, are we talking 5-6 months, 10-20months, longer? Just from your experience of what others on the forum have said. Or an average even? 

 

Another question i have, When we have symptoms or in a wave, can we help by rewiring the brain or thoughts and feelings etc? Or do the waves just simply go away? Meditation, Qi Gong. I have done a lot of this over the years, but at times it feels as if at times im swimming against muddy waters. 

 

Also I'm assuming any changes the nervous system has made in the last year of being off, will be changed again? Or will it be quicker to recognise old patterns with the drug on board? 

 

So many questions, but just like to understand what is going on, what my challenges are so I can relate this back to my family so I can get through this safely. Again, thanks to all for your support. 

 

[manymoretodays]

Hi Dreaming,

So back on the 2 mg dose now.  Since Wednesday?  Have the symptoms below come back?  Or maybe they never went away??

On 11/25/2020 at 5:28 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

The fatigue was the worse part that seem to get worse, and it wasn't great to begin with! But maybe over time this will stabilise like you have said. And sensitivity to lights increased and also i found myself physically throwing up a couple of times after eating (this is a brand new symptom). 

 

I can keep my eyes pealed for anyone who has tried a small reinstatement 1 year off. 

 

I'm thinking more like 5-6 months, for some WD stability. 

That's explained nicely here:  Stability

So you may still have symptoms, but may manage to cope with them better.  I mean hope is a tremendous boost too.  Always keep looking for the improvements.

 

11 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

Another question i have, When we have symptoms or in a wave, can we help by rewiring the brain or thoughts and feelings etc? Or do the waves just simply go away? Meditation, Qi Gong. I have done a lot of this over the years, but at times it feels as if at times im swimming against muddy waters. 

 

Yes, definitely, I think so, and regular practices, not just when in a wave.  The waves will go to windows, and then windows back to waves......but it all leads to healing eventually.

Windows and waves pattern of stabilization

 

(took this one from another mods post, awhile back, and let me know if any of the links don't work, I seem to recall that one or two may need updating)

Altostrata, the founder of this site, put together these links about the ability of the brain to heal itself.  She wrote:

 

"The the brain and nervous system are constantly changing. If your brain and nervous system changed to accommodate the effects of the drugs, they can change again."
 
See

neuroplasticity = hope

Neuroplasticity - Norman Doidge MD Interview

Self-directed Neuroplasticity

Neuroplasticity, slow taper and recovery

Brain remodeling

“I wrote a new story for my nervous system” — neurosculpting - neuroplasticity....

The IT GETS BETTER SERIES

The Heart-Brain Connection: The Neuroscience of Social, Emotional Learning...

Andrews, 2012 Primum non nocere: an evolutionary analysis...

 

11 hours ago, DreamingofHealing said:

Also I'm assuming any changes the nervous system has made in the last year of being off, will be changed again? Or will it be quicker to recognise old patterns with the drug on board? 

 

I am more thinking that the small reinstatement will just help with WD now, rather than cause your brain to re-adapt to the drug again.  I'm not real sure what you are asking.

 

When do you take your 2 mg citalopram?

And what does a day look like now?  Did I mention notes already?  I think I may have.

Basically though, just note the time(s) on the left.  And then on the right any drug or supplement taken, by name and with dose.  Also on the right, note symptoms as they occur at the various times of day.  You had mentioned fatique, light sensitivity, and even vomiting.  You can use a rating scale too for symptoms if you'd like, like 1 for hardly present, and 10 for worst.  That might work with the fatigue anyway.

 

That's a really good way to update us, while you are in this early part of increasing your reinstatement, I think today might only be day 4.  Sometimes something stands out clearly in relationship to your drug and when you take it.  So give that a try to update us, and even to answer my initial question in this post.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited November 30, 2020 by manymoretodays

[DreamingofHealing]

Hi MMT,

 

Yes that's been since Wednesday. I'm not in a great place right now, but its difficult to say whether that's because of the drug or whether its just what was meant to happen. 

 

I take the drug at 4pm everyday. First 3 weeks in taking it at 4pm resulted me in sleeping between 4 and 6pm. Dont feel as sleepy at the minute when I take the drug.

 

The fatigue in particular the body aches were really bad this morning, worst they have been for years. Got a little better with some food and my phospholipid choline complex supplement I take. Its a struggle to keep my head up, not easy going at thr minute. However I'm trying to remind myself that a few weeks ago I felt energy come back into the system (can always tell as it starts at the bottom.of my feet and works its way up the body). This was actually a positive thing since starting Citalopram....

 

Strangely enough one of the things I have noticed where I feel an improvement is when I go to the loo.... happens nearly all the time. Feels like my body is trying to get rid of something.... and sweating has increased (during the day not at night) which is quite something for a winter in Scotland! Another thing is feeling better when drinking water. My brain fog tends to clear a bit.  Can't drink tap water as I'm sensitive to the chemicals. Same reason I crash when shower.....

 

My day is mostly spent in bed 95% of the time. I feel exhausted just with eating. Vomiting has stopped. 

 

The system is extremely sensitive, even having a shower can crash it at the minute. And then there is those excitable kids I have.... love them dearly but sometimes you just wanna scream at them! 

 

Thank you for your links. This is all very helpful for me. I have joined a group in Australia called CFS health. Its ran by a young man by the name of Toby Morrison who recovered from CFS/mE many years ago. Its a positive group with the focus on moving forward and recovery, positive mindset. I'm pretty sure this will help in my recovery..

 

Looking for small improvements, my wife has said she has noticed some positive changes, just little bits of not being so focused on symptoms.. 

 

Where do I track the symptoms etc? Is this something you guys can see when I do so or is just something for my own tracking? Realise you have sent me a link but just wanted to make sure that was the thing you are talking about or whether i do it somewhere else so that you can see. 

 

I dont want to be too symptom focused as I've fallen into this trap before and I tend to not focus on recovery..... but I'm happy to note things down here.

 

Edited November 30, 2020 by DreamingofHealing

[DreamingofHealing]

Just some things I've noticed since taking todays dose.

 

The eye distribution, like black fuzziness has increased and so has the muscles aches. 

 

This was a symptom i experienced on this drug before and on Duloxetine. That symptom stopped when I stopped taking them.

 

It woukd come back if I did too much during the day, but had went away in the last few months only to return now.

 

Today feels like a struggle to get my brain to work. 

 

Interesting when I try to do breathing exercises or anything like to calm the system, the minute I experience calm it goes straight back up again, like that's the only way it can survive. There doesn't seem to be any pause for me to take things in at thr present moment with my frontal lobal. 

 

Over the years with working with various practitioners on calming the system, this has been noted as well. Its like my brain doesn't know how to survive! 

 

Is this anything anyone else has expressed??

[manymoretodays]

Hi Dreaming,

Yes, I have had to practice, practice various techniques, and then I too, get frustrated that the relaxation response does not persist all day.  Just lately though, it seems I do see improvement.  I can catch myself, before going back into kind of a stress response.  AND, I can easily recognize when I am starting to follow old patterns of thought, and stop them in their tracks, which helps.

I don't know if you have feelings that come up, that you suppress.  Try not to.  Try to just let them be.  Sometimes, I think suppression can be activating in itself.

 

On 11/30/2020 at 5:22 AM, DreamingofHealing said:

I take the drug at 4pm everyday. First 3 weeks in taking it at 4pm resulted me in sleeping between 4 and 6pm. Dont feel as sleepy at the minute when I take the drug.

 

The fatigue in particular the body aches were really bad this morning, worst they have been for years. Got a little better with some food and my phospholipid choline complex supplement I take. Its a struggle to keep my head up, not easy going at thr minute. However I'm trying to remind myself that a few weeks ago I felt energy come back into the system (can always tell as it starts at the bottom.of my feet and works its way up the body). This was actually a positive thing since starting Citalopram....

 

Oh Dreaming, it sounds tough.  Definitely eat and drink at regular intervals.

 

How long have you been taking the phospholipid choline?  And what else is in that supplement?  Look at the label.

Lecithin/phosphatidylcholine

And we have a topic ^.  Not much in there.  The only 2 supplements we endorse here are the magnesium, and Omega 3's. 

Important topics about tests, supplements, treatments, diet

So many are sensitive.  And also we suggest sticking to single ingredient supplements, for the same reason.  Let's see what is in yours.

 

The group sounds good that you have found.

The notes, you can just do, and then post here, on your introduction page.  Here's the link again, and then a sample note too:

Keep daily notes of drug schedule and symptoms to track patterns and progress

and when you go to ^, you do need to open up the quote in the first post, from the bottom of it.  You'll see.

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety (but less than yesterday)

 

And then post a 24 hour segment of your own, right here, in your Introduction.  Just jot stuff down, after the time(s).  You don't have to unduly focus on symptoms.

Get the eye symptoms, and muscle pains in there.

Also, if you can edit/update your signature(which is different from the notes, it's the block below posts) with your present dose of citalopram, and when you started it.  Go to AccountSettings/signature

 

 

You could do some more creative journaling on your own, if you'd like too.  Or, I still have a block calendar on my desk, that I jot things into, and then notice, or even color code what seems to make for good days for me.  Usually, it's regular exercise, some social, keeping my committments, a bit of service, etc.  But I can also note any changes in anything there too.

Can you get outside at all?  Even if just briefly, that might help.

 

Okay.  L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by manymoretodays
signature update and link

[DreamingofHealing]

Hi MMT,

 

My wife has been very good with me and has started helping me with the breathing. I'm hoping this will work if I keep at it. 

 

The PC complex is very clean. It comes from a company in the US. BODYBIO. They have done a lot of research and the PC they use is filtered soy lethicin. As its filters it takes away the allergy that a lot of people experience.

 

https://bodybio.com/pages/about-us

 

The ingredients are PC, phosphatidylethanolamine (PE), Phosphatidylinostial (PI), minor glyocolipds, essential fatty acids, flaxseed oil, ethanol. 

 

That was an interesting post you linked in though. This part really caught my eye as I believe this might be part of issue for me. The ADs have been too stimulating for me. 

Every symptom ive had has increased over the years ever since I started taking them. And only begin to heal once off them. Unfortunately my mood absolutely plummets now I stop taking them and so does the sleep, and you'll know its never good when both of them go. 

 

I dont remember one time that I've felt calm on them. And it seems to be happening again.... 

 

Don't suppose you know if this person is still active on the board? 

 

Anyway, I'm going to start taking this Choline-he advises me against anything St John's Wort/5-htp related because based on how i reacted to both AD's, serotonin may not be my issue, in fact it may be too stimulating. I never heard of this but the more I look into it, it sounds like it reacts to a different neurotransmitter that is more focused on anxiety/racing thoughts/obsessive processing that is my main issue. It's amazing that this man got to know me more in an hour than my psychiatrist who hands out pills like they're candy.

 

 

 

My CNS is a bloody mess its just trying to work out how to correct this. Everytime I've come off them, the depression seems really bad. But I've often described this like having inflammation in the brain. At one point it got s bad I was incontinent... 

 

Occasionally I got downstairs (I live in a 3 storey house, my bedroom is top floor, its a win just getting down to second floor!)

But my body is just so knackered, anything midly stimulating can result in a crash.... that includes walking! iT seems that the brain is fed up being stimulated and wants to protect itself. 

 

I take some magnesium and eat very healthy. Antiinflammatory diet. No gluten, no sugar, no dairy. Occasionally I have Omega 3. 

 

Can I ask, one reason i tried Citalopram again was the obsessive thoughts I was having that just woukd not go away. 

 

Is this something that's common in WD withdrawals? It really wasn't a nice occurring thought and related to my past, but some how no matter how much I talked about it or spoke to trauma specialists, it woukd just come back time and time again. 

 

In fact I felt as if I was reliving almost every trauma I've ever had over and over again, but my brain woukd be too tired to really register or process it. Common issue? 

 

It seems there's also many other guy related things I'm needing to address as well like leaky gut and Candida. Also there was mould in our old house and how much of an issue that still is I dont know. 

 

I guess its just one thing at a time. Buy im coming round to tbr belief im better off the drugs and some how try to get my brain to work another way.... like it use to! 

 

 

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, @DreamingofHealing. Why did you decide to take a bit of citalopram when it seems you had withdrawal syndrome from duloxetine?

 

Have you tried fish oil and magnesium supplements? see
https://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/
https://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

Many people find them helpful. You might try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

What is your vitamin B12 status? Are you taking vitamin D3 supplements?

 

[manymoretodays]

On 12/1/2020 at 1:08 PM, DreamingofHealing said:

That was an interesting post you linked in though. This part really caught my eye as I believe this might be part of issue for me. The ADs have been too stimulating for me. 

Every symptom ive had has increased over the years ever since I started taking them. And only begin to heal once off them. Unfortunately my mood absolutely plummets now I stop taking them and so does the sleep, and you'll know its never good when both of them go. 

 

I dont remember one time that I've felt calm on them. And it seems to be happening again.... 

 

Don't suppose you know if this person is still active on the board? 

 

Anyway, I'm going to start taking this Choline-he advises me against anything St John's Wort/5-htp related because based on how i reacted to both AD's, serotonin may not be my issue, in fact it may be too stimulating. I never heard of this but the more I look into it, it sounds like it reacts to a different neurotransmitter that is more focused on anxiety/racing thoughts/obsessive processing that is my main issue. It's amazing that this man got to know me more in an hour than my psychiatrist who hands out pills like they're candy.

 

The first poster in that link, has not been around since January 2019. 

However nick1990 is active still, as is bheb.  You could go on back to that link and then use the @ symbol.  Once you type in the symbol, and begin to type a members name, their name will come up in a pull down type menu, that you then click/tick.  Type your questions or thoughts, and then they may respond in that topic to you.

So then you are just starting on the PC complex?  Or when did you start this?

 

Usually what we might expect with a low dose reinstatement, like what you've done, is just some mitigation of WD symptoms or of WD syndrome.  Ideally, reinstatement's are done, with the medication that you have come off of, and also as soon as WDsymptoms appear.  That you have reinstated with citalopram though, may still help.

More on this here: About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

And then if it does help, even a little bit, you just stay put, and then later, probably after several months, you might decide/begin to taper off, using the 10% or less guidelines:

Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

Tips for tapering Celexa(citalopram)

 

It sounds like, so far, so good with this practitioner.  As long as they listen, and respect your wishes......then it could be a good support.  And, again, do not start or change more than one thing at a time, or it makes it really hard to know what is what.

 

On 12/1/2020 at 1:08 PM, DreamingofHealing said:

I take some magnesium and eat very healthy. Antiinflammatory diet. No gluten, no sugar, no dairy. Occasionally I have Omega 3. 

 

Can I ask, one reason i tried Citalopram again was the obsessive thoughts I was having that just woukd not go away. 

 

Is this something that's common in WD withdrawals? It really wasn't a nice occurring thought and related to my past, but some how no matter how much I talked about it or spoke to trauma specialists, it woukd just come back time and time again. 

 

In fact I felt as if I was reliving almost every trauma I've ever had over and over again, but my brain woukd be too tired to really register or process it. Common issue? 

 

I think that at some point, you could add in daily Omega 3's.   

BASIC SUPPLEMENT TOOLKIT

King of supplements: Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil)

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker

 

And yes, fairly common WD symptoms.  I think intrusive thoughts might be the right term. 

And oh my gosh, yes.......I think I did relieve traumas, and not only that, but on a brighter note I relived a lot of just interesting memories, some kind of quaint and cheery even.  I thought it was due more to MY last drug off, which was Trileptal/oxcarbazepine, yet since.......I have seen many who go through this.

IDK for sure, but I think some of the real trauma work may come when we get medication/drug free too......or it might best be done then.

 

Anyway, I am counting 9 days since you went back up to 2 mg of citalopram.  Over a month now, since you reinstated.

Thankful for your wife.  And yes, this is going to help, my fingers continue crossed for notable improvement!

 

Dreaming, you can do a good search, for stuff on site here, from your main browser........just type in survivingantidepressants.org and then the topic of interest.  Like say, obsessive thoughts, or intrusive thoughts.  And that will link you to topics here.  There is so much in the Symptoms and Self Care forum that can be so helpful.  From the Home page, go to that forum and take a good run through the top pinned topics too. 

 

Let me know, if I missed anything.  Oh yes, I did see that you take your citalopram at 4 pm. 

🥴  Try one day of notes, or 2, especially if asking specific symptom related questions.  Not to unduly focus on symptoms, but it gives a nice birds eye, objective view.

 

And then, if you want too, you could do some journaling, or writing therapy too: 

I think many of us do and benefit from it greatly.

 

Okay, and best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

***p.s. double posted with Alto, so please attend to those questions above this post too. 

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by manymoretodays
*** comment

[DreamingofHealing]

Hello MMT and AS,

 

Many thanks for your guidance and offering of support.

Why did I decide to go back on Citalopram?

 

I have been basically bed bound with what was diagnosed as CFS for quite some time. Wasn't sleeping but couldn't do much during the day. With all the intrusive thoughts and no signs of true recovery, plus not getting any energy from my food no matter what I ate, we had to try something. Unfortunately we didn't discover this website until after the fact. The symptoms were that bad I couldn't hold a conversation for more than 5mins, and had to sleep in a separate bedroom from my wife as even her energy was too much for me.

 

But I am where I am I guess so now its about making the best decisions I can to move forward and heal.

 

Yeah I take a magnesium supplement, but seem to get a bit of a detox reaction from B12 supplements. Testing suggests I'm in range, but symptoms seem to suggest otherwise....  might be one I revisit at some point. 

 

Interestingly enough I've been experimenting with Glutathione and when I take that before meals, its the only time I feel like I'm truly digesting a meal and it gets converted into energy. Very encouraging but going slow on this one.

 

I was speaking to the author of this article 

 

https://purehealthclinic.co.uk/health-a-z/brain-memory-and-cognition/

 

From what I've learned from those that have recovered from complex chronic illness, iys not just one thing. So WDs will be part of my circumstances but its not the only thing. I have learned over the years that going to the sauna and  oil pulling and when I can handle it a detox regime has more of an effect on me than rewiring thoughts or breathing exercises.. it just makes me feel more present, which is what I'm aiming for. 

 

Its trying to piece everything together to try and get energy back into my brain and body so I can enjoy my family life again. 

 

The third product on the list from the article, Neuro 02, is interesting as it contains high levels of Riboflavin. I've seen posts on here from others saying this has worked for them. Might be worth a shot at some point.. also was mentioned in this article here

 

https://www.optimallivingdynamics.com/blog/7-important-nutrients-depleted-by-psychiatric-drugs-antidepressants-antipsychotics-stimulants-benzodiazepines-induced-guide-vitamins-medications

 

 

I've been taking the PC complex for a couple of weeks now. Feel like my energy in brain comes back a little when I take it so its on the good list. 

 

Continue to have good sleep with citalopram and mood is better so I feel as this is going to be me for a while and maybe try another supplement from the article I listed in. Meant to say the Neuroflam product on that list also seems to help.. Info says it crosses the blood brain barrier where as traditional anti inflammatorys don't. 

 

Yes taking D vitamin supplements as I was low in that from last doctor report. Have been supplementing on that for some time.

 

But like I say I'm encouraged by the impact Glutathione has had on me so will continue with this regime nice and slowly...