Moderator brassmonkey Posted June 17, 2021 Moderator Share Posted June 17, 2021 @Nomansland-- Thank you for the report you sent. Several moderators are working on the situation. 1 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Nomansland Posted June 17, 2021 Author Share Posted June 17, 2021 Hello @brassmonkey, sometimes it makes us feel so helpless (or at least i feel that way), when we dont know how to help people. Tried to formulate some encouragement but didnt send it, wasnt sure if i choosed the right words. Sorry about that... You are true heros. Thank you. Greetings 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus arbor Posted June 18, 2021 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted June 18, 2021 Dear @NomanslandThank you for sending your report. I certainly appreciate it. Meanwhile, I've been able to fill out the survey you listed, and thank you for that as well. I send you best wishes as you continue your tapering 🕊️Arbor 1 Zoloft: 1995 - 2015 Prozac: 2015 - 2018 (tapered from 40mg x day on July 31 to 30mg on August 31 to 20mg on September 31 to 10mg October 31 to 0mg on December 15, 2018 Gabapentin: 2016 to 2019 (tapered from 300mg x day to 150mg on August 31, 2019 to 75mg on September 15 to 50mg on September 31 to 25ishmg on October 15 to 0mg on December 1, 2019 Enalapril: 2010 - 2019 Lipitor: 2017 -2017 Metformin: 2000 - 2020 Liothyronine: 2007 - 2019 Levothyroxine: 2000 - 2022 Link to comment
Nomansland Posted July 1, 2021 Author Share Posted July 1, 2021 Hello @brassmonkey, think i could need your adive. Iam unsure if i want to continue doing the syrup+water liquid method. Iam doing it for about 2 weeks now and symptoms seem to ramp up. Had some slight off measurements the first week i think, so it might be from that (could feel it because of increased drowsyness, after dosing. This is always an indicator). I like that i can make 4 doses at once and this would also kind of balance out the inconsistency of the slight different tablet weights. Cant decide wether to give it a for more weeks or change back using only water. Bit annoying because i think i could only prepare like 2 doses at once using only water, but of course having milder symptoms is way more important. Greetings 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted July 1, 2021 Moderator Share Posted July 1, 2021 I would give it a few more weeks to settle in. Even at WDnormal there are going to be fluctuations in the intensity symptoms from week to week. As long as they settle back to baseline everything is good. One of the big frustrations about tapering is the inconsistency of the symptoms. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Nomansland Posted August 6, 2021 Author Share Posted August 6, 2021 Hello @brassmonkey, thank you very much for your answer. So i ended up switchting back to water only (3 x 15 mg tablets in 225 ml water with magnetic stirrer, 1 ml = 0.2 mgai, dosing with lab pipette, 51 ml = 10.2 mgai, i prepare doses for 3 days refridgerated). I switched back because i got gastrointernal problems every morning and vertigo moments. The diarrhea resolved after switching back. Its now about 3 weeks that i use this method and i would like to stay with it. All in all i have a lot of "quite" good days, where symptoms are okay (also, they vary from feeling nearly completly normal to feeling quite bad). Weirdly, the agitation symptom is nearly gone after i switched back (was with me since i crashed september 2020) and now the vertigo moments are quite heavy....and i mean like sometimes i have to sit down because otherwise it feels like fainting, which is very concerning and interfere with daily life... The other symptoms seem to abate a bit, but the vertigo (and slight nausea) is something that really bothers me. I mean look how long i try to hold my dose now...i have recovered quite quickly from the psychological symptoms from the crash (which were clearly withdrawal symptoms, chemical depression), but the physical ones hold me back from thinking about beginning the taper. Couldnt get stable (which means symptoms that dont hinder me to at least go on with my life with little steps) with pill cutting...seem to cant get stable with water taper. Maybe i have to hold a few more weeks because that method switch thing seemed to be a bad idea. Feel a bit disencouraged, especially because of the vertigo right now. I mean...according to my journal, the trend is leading to more good and even sometimes very good days. But this vertigo...its hard... Also iam asking myself quite often if i do something wrong with the dosing method, despite trying to be very consistent and accurate. Really dont know how to proceed from here. Greetings Nomansland 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted August 7, 2021 Moderator Share Posted August 7, 2021 Excellent news that things are improving with the method change. I'd give a few more weeks before starting to taper. Let things get good and stable. Vertigo can be a total pain, but like other symptoms it is transient. It will come and go as it sees fit. I remember times of having to hold onto furniture and such to move around the room. Walking through doorways was quite a challenge. It would flair up for a few weeks and then calm down. It is disconcerting and means having to pay closer attention to surroundings and movements but it can be gotten through. 1 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
JohnTenTen Posted August 8, 2021 Share Posted August 8, 2021 Hi Nomansland, Surprised and interested to read your story. Has anyone like a pharmacist mentioned the strong antihistamine effects of mirtazapine? It's not a property shared by most other antidepressants, and renders a vastly different pharmacodynamic profile. 5 April 2021 - 200mg desvenlafaxine 6 April 2021 - 0mg desvenlafaxine Late July/Early August 2021 - almost all of the effects gone. Was horrific overall. Link to comment
Nomansland Posted August 9, 2021 Author Share Posted August 9, 2021 Hello @brassmonkey, i really need some help here. The update may have some positive signs. But the last 3 or 4 days, the vertigo got extreme, so extreme that i have problems to take a simple walk in the park. Today i had an appointment with my GP. While waiting, i got so dizzy and unwell, that i had to lay down in a seperate room. This vertigo always comes with a slight nausea and the feeling of loosing control. Was a quite nightmarish experiences to say at least. Blood pressure was normal. Iam not sure why the vertigo got so extreme the last few days. I looked in my symptom journal and saw that there "might" be a connection with preparing more than one dose and the beginning of the vertigo. But why is it so bad only the last few days then....and not the last few weeks. I had this vertigo also in the last few weeks, but not so extreme. To be safe and exclude this cause, should i try to make the dose fresh every day? I know normally its fine to make more doses and store them in the fridge, but i also read about people having problems. I also take a new brand of magnesiumbisglycinate, but i did a crossover from the old brand and did not recognize problems, so i dont think its from this change (has the same ingredients). What an absolute nightmare... Greetings 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted August 9, 2021 Moderator Share Posted August 9, 2021 As I mentioned above vertigo is a transient symptom that will come and go in waves. So I suspect that this is just a bad wave and will pass soon enough. That being said. There may be an anxiety/panic element showing up due to situational triggers. that would be consistent with feelings the nausea and "losing control". There is possibly a hypoglycemic factor involved. Hypoglycemia can pop up from time to time during ADWD and can cause such symptoms. If you are making a "water suspension" with your tablets, then it is possible that the extra doses are not keeping well. I would make it up fresh every day. You could also try making a alcohol based solution that would be more stable. Your 10mg tablet will dissolve in 1mL of vodka and then can be diluted with water to make any strength liquid you like. As a solution it will be much more stable than a water suspension. That is assuming that you can tolerate a small amount of alcohol. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Nomansland Posted August 9, 2021 Author Share Posted August 9, 2021 Thank you very much for your answer @brassmonkey, 52 minutes ago, brassmonkey said: As I mentioned above vertigo is a transient symptom that will come and go in waves. So I suspect that this is just a bad wave and will pass soon enough. That being said. There may be an anxiety/panic element showing up due to situational triggers. that would be consistent with feelings the nausea and "losing control". There is possibly a hypoglycemic factor involved. Hypoglycemia can pop up from time to time during ADWD and can cause such symptoms. Iam quite sure some panic was involved, because i was feeling so dizzy...also had to get up very early, no time to eat before appointment and slept bad. I guess all of it contributed to this situation. But also felt awful with this vertigo the last few days. Wasnt feeling so bad the whole time holding the dose, even when doing the crossover to liquid. And after eating it does not resolve, i literally had vertigo the whole day, which is very unusual...i really try to stay hydrated and eat even little things. I feel a pressure in my forehead and the eyes, which i know from taking mirt the first time...so strange. Why does it happen now in this intensity. 52 minutes ago, brassmonkey said: If you are making a "water suspension" with your tablets, then it is possible that the extra doses are not keeping well. I would make it up fresh every day. You could also try making a alcohol based solution that would be more stable. Your 10mg tablet will dissolve in 1mL of vodka and then can be diluted with water to make any strength liquid you like. As a solution it will be much more stable than a water suspension. That is assuming that you can tolerate a small amount of alcohol. Thank you for the suggestion...i will think about that. Havent had a single drop of alcohol since i started mirt, but i know it wouldnt be much (my tablets are 15 mg). I mean i could experiment a bit when iam feeling better (i like to experiment). But iam quite sure that a water suspension is possible with mirt...dont know what iam doing wrong, should be even better with the magnetic stirrer. Also...would you think a powder taper could also be an option (i have a lab grade scale). Maybe its just a wave...i will not make sudden decisions and change something drastically for now. Will make a fresh dose everyday from now on and see what the next few days bring. Cant believe how fast it went downhill. Greetings 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Ripley Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 Hi @Nomansland I was just wondering if you've considered the liquid suspension of mirtazapine? Mine is made by Rosemont and is 15mg per 1ml of solution and I bought some small syringes off Amazon. It seems to be the easiest way to taper and you don't have to worry about distribution of active ingredient or deterioration etc... I just mix my dose of rat poison with a little water and bottoms up! Doctors here in the UK aren't keen to prescribe it as it's much more expensive than the tablets or dispersable versions. I don't know how easy it would be for you to get hold of where you are but I think it's worth looking into? You would have to cross-taper to it gradually. I'm sorry to read about your vertigo. I have also experienced it on mirtazapine but fleetingly thankfully. It's very unpleasant and I hope it improves for you soon. Greetings 1 ▪︎2000 - Seroxat (25mg?) 6 months C/T ▪︎2015 - 7.5mg Zopiclone 1 month C/T ▪︎ 2016 - 2018 - Diazapam and Phenergan occasionally for sleep ▪︎2017 June to Oct - Mirtazapine 7.5mg C/T ▪︎2018 April - 2019 Oct Mirtazapine 7.5mg tapered to 1.5mg. ▪︎2019 October - Mirtazapine 1.5mg (Skipped alternate doses on doctor's advice then stopped - Insomnia.) Phenergan ▪︎2020 Jan 6th - Mirtazapine 1.5mg ▪︎2020 Jan 13th - Mirtazapine 7.5mg ▪︎2020 - Feb - May, holding 7.5mg ▪︎2020 1st June, 7.35mg. 27 June, 7.2mg. 7 July, 7.05mg. 18 July, 6.9mg. 28 July, 6.75mg. 27 Aug, 6.6mg. 7 Sep, 6.45mg. 17 Sep, 6.6mg. Crash/Hold ▪︎2022 - 4 Feb, 6.45mg. 24 Mar, 6.3mg. 13 May, 6.15mg. 13 July, 6mg. 10 Aug, 5.85mg. Link to comment
Nomansland Posted August 10, 2021 Author Share Posted August 10, 2021 Hello @Ripley, thank you for your post. I read alot in your thead, i hope your doing well and your sleep is fine. Would love to get commercial liquid or at least compounded suspension by pharmacy. The thing is, we dont have the commercial liquid anymore here in germany (since 2015 i think). In addition its very, very uncommon here for a pharmacy to make a liquid suspension. Overall compounding pharmacy is not such a big thing here sadly. The only thing they do is to prepare capsules with the dose you want, for which of course you need a script. This would be an option, but has its own disadvantages of course and doctors need to collaborate and write a new script every time. In the german taper forum a lot of people tapered mirtazapine by water suspension, so iam sure it is possible... Think i will post about the options in a few days when symptoms hopefully calmed down a bit. Feeling a bit better today. Greetings 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Ripley Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 Hi @Nomansland I'm sorry to hear the liquid is unavailable - I thought there must be a reason you haven't tried it - and that compounding is difficult. I really hope this changes in the future. There are so many obstacles to getting off this stuff. It is definitely possible to taper with a homemade solution as I've read about people doing this but I don't have any direct experience that I can offer you to help unfortunately. As BM says, I think making a fresh batch every day is a good idea. I wonder if a dry powder taper might be more straightforward? Perhaps have a look at @Malbec37s thread. I know he is tapering mirt but not using the liquid suspension I use. I hope your symptoms settle soon. I'm doing well thank you. I'm wondering when I can start to taper again... By the way, I completed the survey you posted. Thank you for that and the translation work you've also done. All the best 1 ▪︎2000 - Seroxat (25mg?) 6 months C/T ▪︎2015 - 7.5mg Zopiclone 1 month C/T ▪︎ 2016 - 2018 - Diazapam and Phenergan occasionally for sleep ▪︎2017 June to Oct - Mirtazapine 7.5mg C/T ▪︎2018 April - 2019 Oct Mirtazapine 7.5mg tapered to 1.5mg. ▪︎2019 October - Mirtazapine 1.5mg (Skipped alternate doses on doctor's advice then stopped - Insomnia.) Phenergan ▪︎2020 Jan 6th - Mirtazapine 1.5mg ▪︎2020 Jan 13th - Mirtazapine 7.5mg ▪︎2020 - Feb - May, holding 7.5mg ▪︎2020 1st June, 7.35mg. 27 June, 7.2mg. 7 July, 7.05mg. 18 July, 6.9mg. 28 July, 6.75mg. 27 Aug, 6.6mg. 7 Sep, 6.45mg. 17 Sep, 6.6mg. Crash/Hold ▪︎2022 - 4 Feb, 6.45mg. 24 Mar, 6.3mg. 13 May, 6.15mg. 13 July, 6mg. 10 Aug, 5.85mg. Link to comment
Surviving82 Posted August 10, 2021 Share Posted August 10, 2021 On 8/9/2021 at 4:11 AM, Nomansland said: Today i had an appointment with my GP. While waiting, i got so dizzy and unwell, that i had to lay down in a seperate room. This vertigo always comes with a slight nausea and the feeling of loosing control. Was a quite nightmarish experiences to say at least. Blood pressure was normal. @Nomansland, what you describe sounds to me like anxiety/panic episode provoked by the GP visit. There is a name for it in the US, the "White Coat" syndrome. Usually blood pressure is elevated too, at least in my case, but it is not a requirement. Did you take blood pressure after you laid down? That could have helped lower it. This can also be a vasovagal episode, have you ever had those? Regardless of the cause, this feeling can be super unpleasant. I hope you don't get to experience it too often... 1 My thread: https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/24990-surviving82-my-story-wd-from-antidepressants-please-help/ 2016-2017: sertraline for approx. 1.5 years for anxiety and OCD outbreak following birth of my son (all the way from 2mg to 200mg), rapid tapered from 150mg for about 6 weeks without issues. Approximately 2 years psych drug free. Nov 2019 - Feb 2020: fluvoxamine to prevent anxiety/OCD outbreak following birth of my daughter. Had to go off due to constant somnolence. Feb 2020 - Dec 2020: started escitalopram while rapid tapering fluvoxamine. After 9 months decided to get off due to weight gain, rapid tapered from [I think] 15mg for about 6 weeks without immediate issues. March-April 2021: started excessive strenuous exercise and dieting regimen for weight loss. Was doing great (or so I thought) for 3 weeks until early April 2021 when out of nowhere massive panic attacks, other dysautonomia symptoms. AWFUL CRASH. Mid-April 2021: fluoxetine 10mg for 1 week then 20mg for 1 week. Massive side effects, suicidality. Was told to go CT. Side effects gradually started resolving. Mid-Late May 2021: sertraline for 11 days, fine at low doses but same side effects as prozac at 25 to 50mg. Was told to either drop CT or hold at 1/4 of a 25mg pill. April-May 2021: trazodone 50mg PRN for sleep. Do not take every day, the only side effect I noticed is dry mouth. June 8, 2021: stopped all psych meds. Truing to trust that with God's help, my body will heal on its own. September 9, 2021: reinstated escitalopram 1mg. Gradually worked up to 2.5mg by September 30. Reinstatement seems to be helping! Other: Hashimoto thyroiditis for 11 years (on levothyroxine varying doses, between 88mcg and 125mcg), history of anxiety/GAD including health anxiety, OCD. History of autonomic dysfunction (migraines, vasovagal episodes). Link to comment
Nomansland Posted September 7, 2021 Author Share Posted September 7, 2021 Hello @brassmonkey, something seems to be very wrong. I dont know how to proceed and feeling very bad... I know i changed methods for liquid tapering quite often in the last 6 to 8 weeks. But iam asking myself if this is the right way to go...feeling worse than ever right now. Since starting DIY liquid i seem to go downhill more and more. I wasnt stable on the dry cutting either (although better than now) but this vertigo right now is a beast. Strange feeling in the front of my head and exhaustion/nausea. Thinking about going back and use powder.. but thats another change. And could very we be that all different methods are the cause. Had some really really rough 10 days or so. I would like to get your opinion, what i can do. This is the method iam using right now for 9 days: "I dissolve 15mg pill in 7.5ml of water, shaking it up and wait. Then add 7.5ml of maple syrup and shake it well before dosing" I do not crush the tablet before but it dissolve in fine particels in about 20 minutes in the water before adding the syrup. My dose is 10,2 ml = 10,2 mgai. Grettings 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Nomansland Posted September 7, 2021 Author Share Posted September 7, 2021 Iam even thinking about going back up to 15 mg to have a stable dose or to 7.5 mg or ct.... Which i know would probably cause even more havoc and throw me evem deeper into destabilization. No good days right now...i mean when i was on dry cutting i also had quite bad days... but i could translate articels, help other members in the german forum, even create my own website. But since about 8 or 12 weeks, iam not able to do all this. A simple walk in the park is a challenge with this vertigo and buzzing head. Also, minor noise and light sensitivity seems to be back. 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted September 7, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 7, 2021 Going back over your posts it looks like the problems started to get worse when you changed to the liquid. The dry cutting may have had it's problems but it seemed to be working better. Some people just cant tolerate a liquid, even one made from the same tablets they were using. Changing back to dry cutting at the same dose you are currently taking might help the situation. But it will take some time for things to stabilize and the symptoms to return to their baseline. 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Nomansland Posted September 7, 2021 Author Share Posted September 7, 2021 Hello @brassmonkey, thank you for your response. Iam really unsure what to do right now. I mean i did not had an immediate reaction transitioning over to liquid. The first 30 days on liquid or so were almost like the waves and windows that i had while dry cutting. Could be a late reaction or an reaction because of all the method changing that i did the last several weeks/months. Feel really lost right now if i should really changing the method again..maybe i should give one liquid method (the current one) really a few weeks...because with every change, it got worse. 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted September 7, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 7, 2021 What sort of changes have you been making the past few weeks? 1 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Nomansland Posted September 7, 2021 Author Share Posted September 7, 2021 @brassmonkey Well, first i used 150 ml water for a tablet filled down to 150 mgpw. Then i used a whole tablet (without filling the 3 to 6 mg down to 150 mgpw). Then i tried to use the syrup method with rice syrup, but i think it was to dense and i didnt let the tablets dissolve in water prior to adding syrup (15 mgai in 15 ml Water + 15 ml rice syrup). I switched back to water but wanted to prepare more than one dose so i used 75 ml for 15 mgai (x3 for 3 days, refridgerated). After the vertigo moment i reported about 4 weeks ago, i switched back to 15 mgai in 150ml water fresh every day. And now i use 15 mg in 7.5 ml water + 7.5 maple syrup, which "seems" to have a good density/distribution and is recommended by most of the "*antidepressant name* should be illegal" facebook groups. So there were a lot changes. Of course i always calculated how much i need to take, but i never gave a method more than 2 to 3 weeks. The last change was probably when even worse symptoms started and sedation increased (so maybe felt like an updose? dont know)...but have the feeling that the sedation is about the same now on every dose and i feel better when i take the dose (but that was always the case, so no "adverse reaction"). : ( What a mess. 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted September 8, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 8, 2021 I think it needs some time to sort itself all out. Because of the increase in symptoms I would rule against the last method, but I would pick one of the others and stick with it for a few months to let it settle in. 1 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Nomansland Posted September 8, 2021 Author Share Posted September 8, 2021 @brassmonkey Thank you. The last evening, the sedation was almost not there, while the evening before i felt a relative strong sedation. I dont think i get the right dose with this method. Its always up and down. Maybe the tablets differ more than it seems. Do you think i could crush several tablets, mix the powder, weigh the dose with the lab scale and take this dose with water? Greetings 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted September 8, 2021 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted September 8, 2021 31 minutes ago, Nomansland said: crush several tablets, mix the powder, weigh the dose with the lab scale and take this dose with water? That sounds like a good way to do it. 1 * NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA * MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment
Nomansland Posted September 8, 2021 Author Share Posted September 8, 2021 Thank you ChessieCat, wish you a good jump to 0. You will be fine! Iam scarred to make another change yet tbh.. 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted September 8, 2021 Moderator Share Posted September 8, 2021 Yes, that should work, but then you really need to hold with one method and dose to let things settle. 1 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted September 8, 2021 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted September 8, 2021 3 hours ago, brassmonkey said: you really need to hold with one method and dose to let things settle. I agree with BM. It can be very easy to get obsessive about how accurate a dose is. However I think it is good to realise that other than the standard pharmaceutical formulation of a drug there is no way to measure a dose exactly. For prescription liquid there can be a minor variation when measuring the liquid each time. Getting a drug compounded does not guarantee that every capsule is exact (there are videos of this process). All we can aim for is as accurate a dose as possible. And even when taking the standard pharmaceutical formulation of a drug (ie a whole, unadulterated tablet or capsule) there may be variation in how much drug you absorb on different days. This might be related to when the drug is taken (eg what time, with or without food), if you eat a different type of food on different days (high fat food, a cereal based food, low fibre with high sugar), more or less food during the day, or drinking more or less liquid on different days. These are just things that might cause a difference. And then there might be times when your digestion is slower or a day when your digestion is quicker (tending to diarrhea, from food or a bug). I have been taking only compounded capsules for the majority of my taper. Now I am making my own liquid from the capsules. I get small bubbles in the syringe, and I've had a few times when liquid has hit a tooth (quite a bit splashed out that time) or the side of my mouth so I have not taken the full amount. I don't worry too much about this. It does annoy me a bit when it happens. However, I accept that there is no perfect way to get the exact dose and knowing that I have chosen the most accurate method that works for me (I wouldn't have the patience to weigh) removes a lot of stress. We do the best we can and then relax and accept that there is no perfect method. This way we don't add unnecessary stress. 4 * NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA * MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment
Nomansland Posted November 5, 2021 Author Share Posted November 5, 2021 Hello @brassmonkey and @ChessieCat, thank you very much for your answers! I want to give an update. So for about 50 days now, i crush several tablets and weigh the powder in little containers (about 2 or 3 weeks in advance). In the evening i take one container and rinse it thorough several times to drink the weighted powder. Things have stabilised quite a bit in comparison to 2 or 3 months ago. Well, lets make a comparison of the symptoms in the last few weeks versus ~3 months ago: - Vertigo has lessend substantially, its there sometimes but only minor - "feeling unwell/sick", i would say the peaks are way better, but its there, sometimes quite bad (would call this the "main symptom") - sleep is an issue nowadays, its okay but not "well rested" - gut issues have improved - restlessness is there sometimes...bearable, but unpleasant, overall the same - racing thoughts sometimes, about the same as before - restless legs in bed after dosing, sometimes, about the same as before - cortisol morning are less common than before So all in all there are quite good improvement, but of course far from being perfect. It continues being a swing between good and bad from day to day, while way better than some months ago. CNS feels more calm but also stays in some kind of fragile state, but the swings are less harsh. Iam thinking of beginning a super slow taper anywhere in the near future. Like 1 mgpw (= 0.1mgai) every 3 or 4 weeks, to gain confidence, which is very important and to see a way out of this whole ordeal. I dont think i will get in a good shape when i hold even longer (i hold for more than one year now, with the intermediate method changes which were a bad idea). I know the steps would get bigger in time, but in the beginning its roughly a 1% taper every 3 or 4 weeks. What do you think of that? Greetings Nomansland 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted November 5, 2021 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2021 I'm so glad to hear that things are settling down and stabilizing. If you are feeling ready than starting a 1% every 4 weeks taper would be fine. I would do 4 weeks instead of 3 just to give your body plenty of time to adjust to the reduction. Now that you are stable we don't want to rock the boat. At 1% the linear nature of the taper won't be a problem for some time and it will gently build you up to larger reductions. Later on we can work out a plan for larger reductions if all goes well. 2 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Nomansland Posted November 5, 2021 Author Share Posted November 5, 2021 Hello @brassmonkey, thank you so much for your fast answer. It gave me a big smile. ( : Iam not sure when to start...maybe i should wait another month or till new year (maybe its just the "fear what could happen", so to speak). Do you think its possible to maybe taper so slow, that someone can maintain the current level of stability (which is not perfect of course) or even gain more stability, because the reductions are "in theory" so low. Its hard to beat the fear of uncertainty. Its also hard to know if someone is "ready", i couldnt answer this question right now. Greetings Nomansland 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator brassmonkey Posted November 5, 2021 Moderator Share Posted November 5, 2021 The holidays can often be a tough time to start a taper because there are so many stressors to deal with. I frequently suggest people weight until it's all over until starting anything. Doing a "micro-taper", as they are referred to, is all about being as gentle on the body as possible. It is possible to go too slow, but it would have to be a lot slower than we are talking about. For getting started and seeing how you react 1% every 4 weeks is a good beginning. For the sake of getting off the drug in a more timely manner working up to 5% or a little more would be a good idea, but you don't want to rush things. Maintaining stability is paramount. Starting a taper is a total leap of faith. The prospects can be very scary. Starting low and slow however should hardly be noticed. 1 20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013. Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks. The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better. Final Dose 0.016mg. Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017 "It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general." Stephen Hawking Link to comment
Nomansland Posted November 13, 2021 Author Share Posted November 13, 2021 Dear @Gridley , i know you are taking a break from moderating, but if you have some time, i woud have a question for you. In this post you mentioned that you did not crush your pills too fine, because it sticks everywhere when its fine like powder (i mean really, really fine). This also happens to me, despite using weighting paper. Right now iam using mortar and pestle, but if i would use two spoons, it wouldnt be too fine and sticky. Just a little bit. Do you think its a problem if there are still little chunks and not really really fine powder like flour (in terms of active ingredient distribution). https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/22220-timberline-finally-here/#comment-488283 I also would like to know, if you have crushed more than one tablet at the time or only one to make your dose and if it does matter. Thanks! Greetings Nomansland 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus ChessieCat Posted November 13, 2021 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted November 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Nomansland said: I also would like to know, if you have crushed more than one tablet at the time or only one to make your dose and if it does matter. Brassmonkey crushed more than one tablet (10 I think) and had a "stockpile" from which he would take the powder. 1 hour ago, Nomansland said: Do you think its a problem if there are still little chunks and not really really fine powder like flour The goal would be to make it as consistent as possible. There is no way to get absolute precision. As I've said before we try to get as accurate as possible but just like getting tablets compounded there is no way to get a dose exact. Basically you either lose some fine powder because it sticks to things or you have minimum amount of very tiny bits and more . I think the outcome will be almost the same. 1 * NO LONGER ACTIVE on SA * MISSION ACCOMPLISHED: (6 year taper) 0mg Pristiq on 13th November 2021 ADs since ~1992: 25+ years - 1 unknown, Prozac (muscle weakness), Zoloft; citalopram (pooped out) CTed (very sick for 2.5 wks a few months after); Pristiq: 50mg 2012, 100mg beg 2013 (Serotonin Toxicity) Tapering from Oct 2015 - 13 Nov 2021 LAST DOSE 0.0025mg Post 0 updates start here My tapering program My Intro (goes to tapering graph) VIDEO: Antidepressant Withdrawal Syndrome and its Management Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted November 13, 2021 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted November 13, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Nomansland said: Do you think its a problem if there are still little chunks and not really really fine powder like flour (in terms of active ingredient distribution). Little chunks wouldn't be a problem if having them doesn't present weighing issues. When I crushed between two spoons, I got just the consistency I wanted with no chunks and no sticking to the weighing paper. It wasn't flour consistency. I would just do a few grinds between the spoons to get what worked for me. It took less than a minute of grinding. 2 hours ago, Nomansland said: if you have crushed more than one tablet at the time or only one to make your dose and if it does matter. I found it easier to crush one pill at a time. If you're using two spoons, crushing much more than this would be unwieldy. If you want, try two pills. It doesn't really matter, whatever works for you. Edited November 13, 2021 by Gridley 2 Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
Nomansland Posted November 14, 2021 Author Share Posted November 14, 2021 Thank you very much for your answers! 16 hours ago, ChessieCat said: The goal would be to make it as consistent as possible. There is no way to get absolute precision. As I've said before we try to get as accurate as possible but just like getting tablets compounded there is no way to get a dose exact. Basically you either lose some fine powder because it sticks to things or you have minimum amount of very tiny bits and more . I think the outcome will be almost the same. Thank you. My question was not really about getting a more accurate result, but more about making the powder easier to handle and hopefully losing less of it. Can i ask you if your powder did stick to the compounded capsule when you were making your DIY liquid? 16 hours ago, Gridley said: Little chunks wouldn't be a problem if having them doesn't present weighing issues. When I crushed between two spoons, I got just the consistency I wanted with no chunks and no sticking to the weighing paper. It wasn't flour consistency. I would just do a few grinds between the spoons to get what worked for me. It took less than a minute of grinding. Sounds like you got something in between, which would be perfect... I would like to make this a bit more handy, because its sticks everywhere right now. On the mortar, on the brush that i use to get everything out of the mortar, on the weighing paper (even though it is "used" so it has a little layer of powder left from the previous weighing). Quite often a part just "fly" away like dust (or flour), when i brush it out. So a bit less fine would make it also easier to get everything from off the weighing paper in the end. 16 hours ago, Gridley said: I found it easier to crush one pill at a time. If you're using two spoons, crushing much more than this would be unwieldy. If you want, try two pills. It doesn't really matter, whatever works for you. When you were at higher dosages, did you prepare one dose from one crushed pill, then using the powder left + another crushed pill for the next dose and so on? So you stirred it everytime after you crushed one pill right? Shouldnt be a difference to crushing more pills and stirr everything together because the ratio is the same in each pill. Greetings Nomansland 2022 IMPORTANT WITHDRAWAL SURVEY, PLEASE PARTICIPATE: https://uelpsych.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0AR9IsQ61jsiXBk non-native speaker of english 2020: 3-March -> started Mirtazapine 15mg; 3-March to 6-April -> approx. cutting to 0 mg; 6-April to 20-April -> ~ 7,5 mg; 21-April to 31-April -> 15 mg; 1-May to 13-May -> ~ 10 mg (approx.); 15-May to 19-July -> 15 mg (psychosomatic clinic) 19-July -> started taper (scale and file) 14 mg (-6,6%); 08-August -> 12 mg (-14,3 %); 27-August -> 10 mg (-16,6 %); 15-September -> 8 mg (-20 %, bad idea, heavy WD); 23-September -> 10.2 mg (+20 %, 102 mgpw) 2021: 12-April to 12-May -> crossover from solid pill to DIY liquid (water only), 10.2 mg, not stable; 10-September -> back to crushing and weighing, still 10.2 mg (102 mgpw) 2022: 13-March -> changed to DIY liquid with suspension vehicle, 10.2 mg Supplements: 1 x ~125 mg magnesiumbiglycinate before bed, low histamine diet Link to comment
Moderator Emeritus Gridley Posted November 14, 2021 Moderator Emeritus Share Posted November 14, 2021 44 minutes ago, Nomansland said: So a bit less fine would make it also easier to get everything from off the weighing paper in the end. That sounds like the solution. 45 minutes ago, Nomansland said: When you were at higher dosages, did you prepare one dose from one crushed pill, then using the powder left + another crushed pill for the next dose and so on? Exactly. 46 minutes ago, Nomansland said: So you stirred it everytime after you crushed one pill right? Yes, I gave it a stir. 46 minutes ago, Nomansland said: Shouldnt be a difference to crushing more pills and stirr everything together because the ratio is the same in each pill. There shouldn't be any difference. If there is, the difference in ratio from pill to pill will be inconsequential and no cause for concern. Gridley Introduction Lexapro 20 mg since 2004. Begin Brassmonkey Slide Taper Jan. 2017. End 2017 year 1 of taper at 9.25mg End 2018 year 2 of taper at 4.1mg End 2019 year 3 of taper at 1.0mg Oct. 30, 2020 Jump to zero from 0.025mg. Current dose: 0.000mg 3 year, 10 month taper is 100% complete. Ativan 1 mg to 1.875mg 1986-2020, two CT's and reinstatements Nov. 2020, 7-week Ativan-Valium crossover to 18.75mg Valium Feb. 2021, begin 10%/4 week taper of 18.75mg Valium End 2021 year 1 of Valium taper at 6mg End 2022 year 2 of Valium taper at 2.75mg End 2023 year 3 of Valium taper at 1mg Jan. 24, 2024: Hold at 1mg and shift to Imipramine taper. Taper is 95% complete. Imipramine 75 mg daily since 1986. Jan.-Sept. 2016 tapered to 14.4mg March 22, 2022: Begin 10%/4 week taper Aug. 5, 2022: hold at 9.5mg and shift to Valium taper Jan. 24, 2024: Resume Imipramine taper. Current dose as of April 1: 6.8mg Taper is 91% complete. Supplements: multiple, quercetin, omega-3, vitamins C, E and D3, magnesium glycinate, probiotics, zinc, melatonin .3mg, iron, serrapeptase, nattokinase I am not a medical professional and this is not medical advice but simply information based on my own experience, as well as other members who have survived these drugs. Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now