Camille: Lexapro WD "threshold"from 5mg to 2.5mg?

[Camille]

4 hours ago, Dee12h said:

I feel better after reducing as well. The meds make me really tired, irritable, & have brain fog. All that gets better with reductions, and then insomnia & anxiety go up some. It’s a balancing act.

Thanks for answering, I really appreciate it Also what time do you take your med ? I was taking my med at bedtime and experiencing worsening insomnia each tiny decrease and now I take it the morning and sleep seems to have gotten better although my mood worse, but I don't/never know if it's side effects from the med or WD. I feel the time at which you take your med may have a significant importance. I'm wondering if I feel worse during the day now because my brain get used to lower concentration at night and then I have side effects from the med when I take it in the morning...

[Dee12h]

Yeah, I think it matters. I had always taken mine at night, and when I switched to morning bc of sleeping issues, I was so tired/brain fog all day. Now I take it at 6pm so it has time to reach full effect before bed (it’s not causing sleep issues anymore; it helps me sleep.) I feel better during the day that way. Lex takes 5 hrs to reach peak concentration in the blood.

[Camille]

@Dee12h, @Gridley, @Altostratawhat do you guys think of this theory (it's a post from a member called @reachingforthestars but he has not connected to this website since 2016: "Is there anyone who has felt better after dropping dose during tapering? I mean could someone have faster metabolism so that drugs have shorter half life in their system and because of that the body adapts to those lower levels of ssri during the 24 hours? I must have higher levels of ssri at daytime after i take my dose in the morning and lower at night." The theory is that the body adapts to the lower concentrations of the med especially since these lower concentrations happen at night (when taking the med in the morning), when the brain is supposed to repair. That's why we have side effects of the med during the day. This could be especially true with liquid versions that are probably metabolizes even faster.

[Altostrata]

People may have adverse effects from the drugs and feel better as the dose is reduced, as this tends to reduce the intensity of the adverse effect. People also have different rates of metabolism for each drug. Drug half-life estimates are averages based on small samples, there could be a lot of variance.

 

It is unlikely you will adapt to a decrease over a 24-hour period unless it's a very small decrease (micro-tapering) or a very short-life drug (such as 2-3 hours half-life).

 

What symptoms do you have that you think might arise from the way you metabolize your drugs? What exactly are you taking now, at what times of day and dosages?

[Yesyes123]

26 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

People also have different rates of metabolism for each drug.

 

I didn't know this.

 

Is this difference in rate of metabolism for each drug the main cause of some people being able to CT without major problems after years of use and some nearly dying because of it?

[Altostrata]

10 minutes ago, Yesyes123 said:

Is this difference in rate of metabolism for each drug the main cause of some people being able to CT without major problems after years of use and some nearly dying because of it?

 

This is unknown, but it's probably not related to metabolism of the drug (half-life), more likely variation in neurophysiology.

[Camille]

12 hours ago, Altostrata said:

What symptoms do you have that you think might arise from the way you metabolize your drugs? What exactly are you taking now, at what times of day and dosages?

Thanks for answering @Altostrata. I was taking my 3mg liquid Lexapro at night (9pm) and was completely unable to reduce even by the smallest reduction/percentage. Every time I reduced I would have insomnia and anxiety. A few days ago, I decided to take my med in the morning, immediately my sleep became normal again and I was able to reduce by 10% on the 26th with (for now, fingers crossed) no WD effects.

The only thing is that when I take my med in the morning, my mood is bad during the day, but I chose to do it because it allows me to reduce more. Anyways it might very possibly all be a coincidence. Do you know anyone who has experienced similar changes in their ability to reduce doses when changing the times at which they take their med ?

 

[Camille]

@Altostrata do you think that would be a good idea to take my med twice a day to diminish variations in plasma concentrations ? If so, how long does my homemade Lexapro solution can be kept (I'd like to make the solution in the morning, take half of it in the morning and half of it 12h later). Thanks again for all the help you provide  

[Camille]

Update : So on the 28th I started experiencing small WD from my 10% reduction 2 days before. For now, the WD symptoms are totally bearable : increased heart rate, some cortisol spikes during the night so bad sleep, very very dry eyes and throat, but on the plus side more feelings are coming back and even if it's generally crying, i'm happy about it, it's a good cry

[Yesyes123]

Awesome news!

[Altostrata]

On 5/29/2021 at 1:02 PM, Camille said:

@Altostrata do you think that would be a good idea to take my med twice a day to diminish variations in plasma concentrations ? If so, how long does my homemade Lexapro solution can be kept (I'd like to make the solution in the morning, take half of it in the morning and half of it 12h later). Thanks again for all the help you provide  

 

We suggest people keep their homemade suspension only perhaps 4 days, in a dark bottle in the refrigerator.

 

Why do you think you need to divide the dose? How much drug in milligrams are you taking now, at what time of day? I cannot interpret the milliliters in your signature.

[Camille]

So i was hit with WD (resting heart rate at 110, anxiety, insomnia) and decided to go back to 120mG after 1 week of being at 108mg. One mistake I made also was changing my dosage at the same time I was changing the time at which I took my med (morning vs night). I hope the reinstatement will work fast. I felt good on 120mg and was seeing improvement on my ability to feel pleasure, I had moment where I was almost functional (I had pleasure and motivation) and other moments where I had this stress/tension inside of me which made me inconfortable whatever I was doing and unable to experience any relaxation and pleasure. In my mind, reducing the dosage would have made me feel better. Also I wasn't seeing a pattern of "windows and waves" so I thought I was at WD normal, but when I think about it the fact that I was at moments feeling good and at others super tense/inconfortable in my own skin (hard to explain, kind of seem like mild akathesia) was maybe my equivalent of windows and waves. I have a hard time knowing if i feel bad because of the med or because of the WD. Also, like 3 days before I did my drop I changed the time at which I was taking my med and although that made me sleep way better, it also made me feel this "mild akathesia" feeling during the day whereas before I was not sleeping amazing but I was pretty fine during the day. That's what made me want to reduce my dose, I thought I would have felt better. Does anyone has experienced similar stuff ?

[Camille]

For all the French people here : You can buy Escitalopram from the brand "Evolugen", it dissolves very well in water !

[Camille]

Hello, I have a question : Should I wait to not have anhedonia anymore to taper again ?  Is anhedonia a WD symptom or a side effect ? I didn't have anhedonia when I was on my full dose of Lexapro (10mg). My anhedonia started immediately after I first reduced my dosage (from 10mg to 7,5mg). Since then, some stuff have improved like I regained the ability to cry but I am no really able to feel pleasure still. What do you think ? Do you think my anhedonia can improve if I stay stable on my current dose (3mg) for a while ? Thanks in advance for your input.

[Gridley]

30 minutes ago, Camille said:

Should I wait to not have anhedonia anymore to taper again ?  Is anhedonia a WD symptom or a side effect ? I didn't have anhedonia when I was on my full dose of Lexapro (10mg).

Anhedonia (the inability to experience pleasure) can be either a side effect or withdrawal.  Based on your description of your experience, the anhedonia you're experiencing is likely a result of withdrawal rather than a side effect.  Anhedonia by itself isn't a reason not to taper.  However, based on the other symptoms you list as the reasons for our updose and the fact that you updosed only a short time ago, I'd hold where you are at 3mg for at least 2 months to stabilize to see how your symptoms are.  It's not a good idea to keep changing doses, going up and down, as this is a stressor on your system, which craves stability.

 

42 minutes ago, Camille said:

Do you think my anhedonia can improve if I stay stable on my current dose (3mg) for a while ?

It is possible.  There's no way to predict.  

 

[Camille]

Thanks a lot @Gridley for your answer, it's helping. I will indeed stabilize on my current dose. 

[Camille]

Hello, 

Whenever I try to go below 3mg (even by just 0,1mg), I get hit by acute depression and anxiety whereas I have absolutely zero anxiety on 3mg and although i have anhedonia I don't have "acute depression" (no crying or despair). Has anyone else experiences this type of "on the edge" dosage where you feel completely fine (except for the anhedonia) on it but like hell just below it? It's like reducing my dosage by 0,1mg makes my anxiety goes from 0 to 100, same goes for acute depression. It's not a difference in intensity but a difference in nature ! My idea is to wait till the anhedonia lifts completely and maybe then I will be able to reduce again because now it's completely impossible. It might take a long time, hope no more than a year. I'd like to know if anyone has lived a similar situation though.

[Greatful]

@Camille  How are you doing? It has been pretty quite over here.  I am no expert that's for sure, but I know from other people's experiences, the lower the dose it can get pretty hard.  The sert level is still pretty high.  Lexapro is a pretty strong drug.  You should feel good that you are at such a low dose😊

How has it been going for you other wise?

 

 

[Camille]

It's not going great , I feel depression and anxiety now, my mouth and my eyes are extremely dry also. What about you @Greatful ?

 

[Greatful]

@Camille

16 hours ago, Camille said:

I feel depression and anxiety now, my mouth and my eyes are extremely dry also

could be a wave.  When did the symptoms start?  I really can relate to the depression and anxiety. 

 

It is my constant unless I get a quick peak at a window.  I do have to say it is better than a month ago.  But the little windows give me hope that I am healing and moving forward in my journey.  Not fast enough................

 

I made it through yesterday, I can make it through today and I am going to let tomorrow take care of tomorrow☺️

 

Hang in there,  I have to stay up to date with your taper so I can get encouragement to start mine.

We can do this

[Camille]

Hello, I am feeling horrible, truly horrible, a mix of akathesia and intense and constant anxiety. It started 1 week ago I think. I am currently at 3,25 liquid Lexapro. I used to experience zero anxiety before in my taper and now all of sudden I have it. I have no appetite and go immediately to the toilet if i do eat. My whole body is pure cortisol. I think I just hit intense withdrawal. I started my tapering last year in September. Before the anxiety hit I was anhedonic and sometime akathesia but not cumulated with the anxiety. Can someone who have lived through this tell me it's gonna be ok ? How long does it generally last ? Why was I not able to avoid it even though my taper was super slow? Thanks a lot for answering. My parent want to hospitalize me because I'm not eating, I don't how long theyre gonna wait. If I'm hospitalised they'll give medications and it will be the end of me.

[Camille]

On 8/3/2021 at 1:10 AM, Greatful said:

On 8/2/2021 at 8:56 AM, Camille said:

 

could be a wave.  When did the symptoms start?  I really can relate to the depression and anxiety. 

The extreme panic started maybe August 1st . I didn't feel ANY anxiety at all until that date. I think this is a necessary step that I could not have avoid even by going extremely slowly (and I did). 

Yes we have to stay strong @Greatful, thanks a lot for your words of encouragement it really does help.

[Greatful]

@Camille I am so sorry you are feeling so bad.  My guess you are getting hit with a wave.  Trying to stay stable and get off these drugs is a very hard balancing act.  

 

If I read your signature right you were on Jan. 25 2021 you were on 8.75mg one month later Feb 24th  you dropped to 3.5mg.  you did a big drop. It maybe catching up to you.  I would tag a mod @getofflex may help answer your questions.

 

Try to drink a lot of water, you do not want to get dehydrated.   Can you eat anything light like crackers, toast, yogurt,  small amounts at a time.

Are you throwing up or having to go to the bathroom.  I've  had to force myself to eat at little even if I have no appetite and/or when nauseous 

 

What are you using as coping skills.  Meditation, light  walk outside in nature is a big help to refocus. Not getting caught up in your thoughts.  Remember they are just thoughts, and they don't mean anything.  Acknowledge them( don't engage in them) turn your attention on something else.  Look at something, picture, nature, get up and move, refocus your attention on what you were doing.  I mean really concentrate what you are doing.  Say the steps in your mind.  You will have to repeat this constantly for awhile as you are training your brain to stay in the present moment.  

 

I am glad you are reaching out for help.  This can feel very scary and lonely.   We are here for you

Your doing great hanging in there. You can get through this one day at a time♥️

[Camille]

Hello, I am feeling extremely bad, I think about suicide constantly, I don't know how much longer i can last. It started one day very abruptly at the end of July. Do you know how long it is going to last ? Has anyone experienced such mental torture with strong suicidal ideation and then it went away ? How long before it went away ? I really need reassurance right now, I'm sorry to bother.

[Yesyes123]

11 hours ago, Camille said:

Has anyone experienced such mental torture with strong suicidal ideation and then it went away ? How long before it went away ?

 

I experienced the absolute darkest and worst suicidal doom for months because of improper Lexapro dose changes (before finding SA). It did go away eventually.

 

I was going to kill myself. It was absolutely unbearable. I had 2 options: lay and wait or kill myself.

 

Now, I'm very glad I chose to wait.

 

Please understand this: it does go away. 

 

When you are in such states (like soooooo many others are going through right now) it seems like it will never get better.

 

It seems like life just doesn't go on. 

 

Please understand this is a known withdrawal symptom and it is absolutely not compatible with reality; it's just how you and your system are seeing it at the present time.

 

It took me about 3-4 months in the same dosage of Lexapro (no dose changes) + daily fish oil before I started to feel better and more and more stable.

 

To me, long release Vitamin C tablets seemed to help a lot with cortisol spikes (which I had all the time).

 

Also, @Camille, please take 5 minutes to read this, it has been pretty helpful to me:

 

http://nothingworks.weebly.com/

 

Also, there's this person, Dr. Julia Britz who seems to be able to help people with psych drug tapering. She has suffered with these drugs herself. She does online sessions.

 

I haven't had a appointment with her yet, but I have heard from others she was very helpful.

 

If you want to talk to her I'm sure she'll respond to your message, you can contact her on instagram.com/psychmeds_nomore 

 

Or just type "psychmeds_nomore" on Instagram

[Camille]

Thank you @Yesyes123 for your encouragement. Unfortunately, I can't up my dosage like you did because I experience adverse reactions whenever I try upping my dosage.  Thanks for your advises and recommendations, it means a lot

[Greatful]

@Camille

18 hours ago, Camille said:

Hello, I am feeling extremely bad, I think about suicide constantly,

I am so sorry.  I feel your pain and I know how real it is.

I go through these spell.  Earlier this week it was so bad none of my coping skills worked, not meditation, redirecting thoughts, staying busy.  I finally just told myself all I have to do is make it through today.  I would worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.  I know the darkness is so hard.  It does lift and you will get a break.  I still have low depression and wonder if I will ever get better but it does lighten up.

 

Do you have any support that lives with you?  If so lean on them, be with somebody.  Do you work or are you home all day.  Can you go for a walk or have someone take you for a ride.

 

I am glad that you are reaching out.  I don't want you to suffer alone or in silence.

If you want to chat I am here

Rap your arms around yourself and squeeze, that is me giving you a hug🤗

 

Are you able to sleep?

 

[Yesyes123]

On 8/14/2021 at 3:31 PM, Camille said:

Unfortunately, I can't up my dosage like you did because I experience adverse reactions whenever I try upping my dosage.

 

Hi @Camille

 

I didn't up my dosage, I reinstared at a higher dose as my insane former psychiatrist told me to do, which escalated my problem.

 

In fact after starting to feel more stable I only slowly decreased my dose and am still tapering slow. Every time I decreased I felt better. But everyone reacts differently. You need stability, don't keep jumping around.

 

You will make it.

[Greatful]

@Camille  Hi, wondering how you are doing?

[Camille]

Hello @Greatful, I'm not as bad but still pretty bad  how are you ? 

[Greatful]

@Camille  I am glad you are feeling a little better. 

I am up and down, in and out of D/R  The mornings are really rough for me.  Panic, low mood, D/R among other things,  I do get a little peak out a window on some evenings.  Right now I am at some lake cabins with some of our children and their their kids.  We planned it last summer before I took a nose dive in to the abyss of misery of withdrawal😥  I wasn't sure is I was going to make it but I talked myself into it and now I am in a mess, but I would be a mess at home too😥  I will  try to look at this as a distraction from sitting at home.  My hubby and I have our own cabin so I escape and hide in here.🙄 

 

Hang in there all we have to do is make it through today😊

[Annerachel]

@Altostrates, Dear Madam, my daughter Camille @Camille is on your forum since a few months. Today she is feeling very badly, she wants to die but tells me there is no solution to her problem. We will consult her psychiatrist (french) next friday, i emailed him your article (How I helped thousands of people...). However, he wants to hospitalize her because she's in great danger and thinks that she suffers a psychotic episode. If i follow the advises on this forum end the opinion of my daughter, it would put her life in danger. What is your opinion ? Thanks in advance for your answer.

AnneRachel

[Altostrata]

Welcome, @Annerachel

 

We need to hear from Camille. Has she recently gone off a psychiatric drug? Which one, how much, and when?

 

Is Camille able to post in this topic?

[Camille]

Hello @Altostrata, I am Camille, I have a topic on this forum : 

 

[Altostrata]

Hello, @Camille, thank you for returning. Your mother is very worried about you.

 

On 8/5/2021 at 8:41 AM, Camille said:

Hello, I am feeling horrible, truly horrible, a mix of akathesia and intense and constant anxiety. It started 1 week ago I think. I am currently at 3,25 liquid Lexapro. I used to experience zero anxiety before in my taper and now all of sudden I have it. I have no appetite and go immediately to the toilet if i do eat. My whole body is pure cortisol. I think I just hit intense withdrawal. I started my tapering last year in September. Before the anxiety hit I was anhedonic and sometime akathesia but not cumulated with the anxiety. Can someone who have lived through this tell me it's gonna be ok ? How long does it generally last ? Why was I not able to avoid it even though my taper was super slow? Thanks a lot for answering. My parent want to hospitalize me because I'm not eating, I don't how long theyre gonna wait. If I'm hospitalised they'll give medications and it will be the end of me.

 

What happened in late July or the beginning of August? Did you make a reduction in escitalopram? Take antibiotics or have an alcohol drink?

 

How old is your bottle of liquid escitalopram? Has it expired? Has it been refrigerated as long as you've had it?

 

What amount of escitalopram are you taking now, and for how long?

 

(Also, please condense your signature, it's way too long. But an impressive history.)

[Camille]

Hello I am taking 3mg (homemade liquid) since March, I didn't do anything in late July. I just think withdrawal works differently for different people, I didn't feel any withdrawal until this hit me very suddenly one day. I had tried before going under 3mg and I was hit with the same horrible sensations so I had to go back on 3mg. It's like 3mg is some kind of threshold.