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Camille: Lexapro WD "threshold"from 5mg to 2.5mg?


Camille

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Everyone is different, for some people tapering slowly doesn't help or doesn't make them avoid terrible symptoms. I don't think I should have stopped my med. In September, when I reduced from 10mg to 7,5mg and immediately felt anhedonic, I think I wrongly interpreted it as a withdrawal symptom whereas it could have simply been the proof that the medication was working. If you feel good or good enough on the med, don't take the risk of reducing it thinking that tapering slowly will allow you to avoid suffering, for some people it doesn't. For some people , they barely feel a thing when tapering and at one point, for unknown reason, everything goes bad. If you think you might be prone to ADWD and you fell good on them, you might think twice about taking the risk to reduce your meds even if you don't believe in meds or are ideologically against them. And tapering doesn't alleviate the suffering for everyone

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

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This discussion has gone on far past the point of being productive. It is time to put an end to it.   This site is dedicated to helping it's members remove these drugs from their bodies and

Camille, Not sure where you are getting this impression that we are encouraging people to come off of antidepressants on this website - we are telling people that IF they want to come off of them

Update : Since end of April, some feelings and emotions are slowly coming back, I cried a few times (I had not cried in about 9 months or so) and I am so happy to be able to cry again, it really feels

  • Moderator
On 2/4/2021 at 11:12 PM, Camille said:

My pharmacist will occasionally change the brand of the med and I don't mind because it doesn't make any noticeable change on me. Right now, the 7,5mg part of the pill is from a brand called " Biogran" and the 1,25mg part is from "EvoluGEN".

 

Changing brands or generics can lead to withdrawal symptoms. Although the active ingredient should be the same, it is clear and often proven that different makes are often not having the same effects. Lots of generics seem to be different from the original and other generics. You should ask you doctor and pharmacy to keep providing one and the same version. If possible best the original one.

 

 

On 3/2/2021 at 7:39 PM, Camille said:

Interesting Update : In February, I started the process of converting my solid med into liquid. Initially, I wanted to go this way : every week convert 1,25mg into liquid until total. After 1 week, when I started converting 2,5mg into liquid, I began having symptoms that I usually recognize when "overdosing", which were insomnia, anxiety, sweating, difficulty swallowing, trouble with my vision. So i concluded that the liquid form was more "powerful" than the solid one and little by little, after some experiments (that were probably pretty risky in retrospect, but also the overdosing symptoms were pretty nasty) it led me to figure out, based on my physical symptoms, that the appropriate dose in liquid form for me was 3,5mg.

 

You seem to be making conclusions here that a solution (self made from pills) is much stronger than dry pills. This is NOT true. When you make the solution in the right way and you dose it in the right way, it is as strong as the pills.

 

However one should always make a gradual transfer from pills to liquid. Changing 1 time as you did, may cause symptoms...

 

How do you make the solution? Please explain in detail. Maybe the problem of your current situation lies in making mistakes in making the solution. 

 

How much mg of the pill (pill weight and active ingredient) do you use? How much water do you use? How long do you keep the solution? (it should be kept for maximum 5 days and refridgerated). When you use too much water (you write 125 ml per day?) the solution may loose strength much earlier during 5 days. Or the active ingredient will not spread evenly when using too much water.

 

Explain in all details how you make (and take) the solution please!

 

 

 

On 5/11/2021 at 2:02 PM, Camille said:
On 3/5/2021 at 2:22 PM, Yesyes123 said:

I truly hope you are right that 3.5mg is the right dosage for you, but that sounds like a VERY big drop from your previous dose. It honestly sounds a bit scary to me. There shouldn't be such a big difference in potency from the liquid to solid, if any at all? 

Hey I know that seems crazy, but not impossible! When dissolved, the med is absorbed "buccally" (like directly into the blood through the tissue in your mouth). When you swallow it, it goes through a completely different system of absorption (through your digestive system and liver). 

 

This theory does not apply for SSRI's. These meds need time to build up in the body for what they do. They are NOT working immediately. The comparison with cannabis you make somewhere in your thread, makes no sense. Cannabis creates effects within minutes. A SSRI needs several days!

 

My conclusion is that you have made an extreme change in dose when going from 8,75 to 3,5 mg in february of this year. The theory about stronger effect in liquid form does not hold!

 

The effect of such an big dosage change may be felt not before 2-4 months after doing so. So the fact that you felt worse and worse after May this year, may very well be the result of this way too big drop in dosage in February (or March high you also mention somewhere)

 

 

On 5/20/2021 at 10:42 PM, Yesyes123 said:

I'm confused about what you're doing - you're taking 120mL of Lexapro liquid with 3mg active ingredient? 

 

See my comments above. I do not understand this either.

 

On 5/23/2021 at 11:46 PM, Altostrata said:

3mg is a very small amount of escitalopram, but it has about 20% receptor occupancy. There is no such thing as a "therapeutic dose" when you're decreasing the drug. Obviously, if you get withdrawal when you decrease, the drug has some effect on you.

 

Often the last little bit is the most difficult. You may wish to stay at 3mg per day for a good while, perhaps a couple of months, to let your nervous system regroup before making further decreases.

 

 

 

On 5/26/2021 at 6:22 PM, Yesyes123 said:

Hey! The actual effects of a dose reduction (or any alteration) usually can't be felt immeditately. It takes at least 4 days, sometimes a lot more, for effects to be felt. It seems to me the effects you felt from the small reduction might have been from something else...

 

Edited by Go2zero

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal affects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again

 

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil when feeling anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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On 8/14/2021 at 8:31 PM, Camille said:

Thank you @Yesyes123 for your encouragement. Unfortunately, I can't up my dosage like you did because I experience adverse reactions whenever I try upping my dosage.  Thanks for your advises and recommendations, it means a lot

 

What kind of adverse reactions you get when you updose. When and how did you updose? What was your dosage and with how much did you updose?

2 hours ago, Camille said:

Hello I am taking 3mg (homemade liquid) since March, I didn't do anything in late July. I just think withdrawal works differently for different people, I didn't feel any withdrawal until this hit me very suddenly one day. I had tried before going under 3mg and I was hit with the same horrible sensations so I had to go back on 3mg. It's like 3mg is some kind of threshold.

 

As said in my earlier post, the effects of a too big change in dosage often are felt after a period of 2-4 months. At first one thinks that everything is OK after the big drop in dosage. (sometimes people even start feeling much better). And then after 2-4 months the BIG BANG comes....

 

I guess this is what has happened. Probably you came in heavy withdrawal because of this.

 

Stabilizing is what you need to do. Any big change in meds may make this worse. I agree that hospitalization may mean more meds.....

 

The only thing you could do is maybe a light up-dose of the escitalopram.

 

Before you do anything, please answer in most detail how you measure and make your own liquid. If you would have made a mistake there, the problem could be found there as well....

 

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal affects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again

 

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil when feeling anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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Thelongestroadhome

Hi @Camille I have read through your thread and there are many similarities in our experience with lexapro. 
I did an extremely slow withdrawal from lexapro, it took me 11 years to finally get off. I never experience much withdrawal until I hit 5mg and that is when my problems began. Coming off the lower doses is much harder. My advice to you would be slow down. This is not a race and there are no medals to be won. 
The most important thing is to feel well enough to enjoy your life during withdrawal. If that means staying at your current dose for a year… longer… then so be it. It sounds to me as though your nervous system has been affected by the many dose changes. The best thing you can do in my humble opinion  is to stabilise and don’t make further changes. It may take a few weeks or it may take a few months but you will stabilise. 
I stayed at 5mg for a few years but I was happy and enjoyed my life. What good would it have done to continue weaning and be miserable? 
in the meantime practice self help of some kind, listening to the likes of Dr Claire Weekes on YouTube, having acupuncture, massage…. Whatever helps relax you. 
You can do this ❤️

Current...Drug free since September 2018

December 2007 30mg Lexapro and a benzodiazepine December 2008 25mg, December 2009 20mg, December 2010 15mg Lexapro, December 2011 10mg Lexapro. Long hold as I felt happy with the dose and saw no need at the time to reduce further. September 2015 dropped to 5mg. Terrible anxiety started two months later. June 2016 dropped to 3mg and terrible obsessive thoughts and anxiety so ten days later I reinstated back to 5mg. October 2016 dropped to 4mg. April 2017 dropped to 3mg. September 2017 dropped to 2mg. Terrible obsessive thoughts. Anxiety through the roof. OCD.  September 2018 quit cold turkey 2mg Lexapro. March 2019 feeling better than I have in years. 

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Altostrata

@Camille, how are you making your liquid? How long are you keeping it?

 

The "anhedonia" you felt when you reduced Lexapro most likely was a very common withdrawal symptom. It's a very common mistake people make to think this is "depression" returning.

 

If you don't think you should have gone off Lexapro, you can take it again, or its gentler sibling, citalopram (Celexa). Suggest that since your system has been sensitized by withdrawal, you might take a low dose, no more than 5mg, of citalopram to start. Lexapro (escitalopram), is 2-3 times stronger, milligram for milligram.

 

On 3/2/2021 at 10:39 AM, Camille said:

Interesting Update : In February, I started the process of converting my solid med into liquid. Initially, I wanted to go this way : every week convert 1,25mg into liquid until total. After 1 week, when I started converting 2,5mg into liquid, I began having symptoms that I usually recognize when "overdosing", which were insomnia, anxiety, sweating, difficulty swallowing, trouble with my vision. So i concluded that the liquid form was more "powerful" than the solid one and little by little, after some experiments (that were probably pretty risky in retrospect, but also the overdosing symptoms were pretty nasty) it led me to figure out, based on my physical symptoms, that the appropriate dose in liquid form for me was 3,5mg.

 

 

No, if you make it properly, the liquid gets into your system faster than the tablet, that may give you these symptoms. The way to fix it is to slightly reduce the liquid dosage, take it in divided doses, or introduce it more gradually.

 

Quote

progressively figured out that for me the liquid was way more powerful than the solid and turns out that the equivalent liquid dose for 8,75mg solid was 3,5mg homemade liquid

 

This is incorrect. By substituted 3.5mg for 8.75mg, you made a huge decrease in your overall dose and probably precipitated worse withdrawal with additional decreases by May.

 

 

Quote

June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020: feeling amazing, like I never did before but I cannot pinpoint exactly why. Are the meds suddenly working although they never did before ? Did the probiotics repaired my gut? 

 

We know that reinstatement can reverse withdrawal syndrome, that is the "amazing" feeling. The meds are not suddenly working. Reinstatement can make you feel better. After a while, you can taper off slower and more systematically if you wish.

 

Currently, you are experiencing withdrawal syndrome, which often causes despair. Your taper did not go bad for an unknown thing. Please consider updosing to reduce your withdrawal symptoms.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Hello, thank you all for your answers.

Right now I am incredibly depressed but no longer suffering mentally or suicidal. My parents still want to hospitalize me and give me some meds but I am afraid I'll react badly to them and suffer more. When I tried last December an updose from 7,5mg to 10mg Lexapro I experienced adverse effects (insomnia, "mild aka?", visual disturbances, difficulty swallowing). When I tried an antihistamine last April I also experienced an adverse reaction so I'm afraid I'll react badly to any psych med I'm given. How to make them understand that trying more meds carry a huge risk of more suffering ?

I still regret ever trying to stop my meds but what is done is done and I cannot go back even though I wish. 

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

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5 hours ago, Camille said:

Right now I am incredibly depressed but no longer suffering mentally or suicidal.

This is a good sign! It may go very slow but it is a sign of healing from withdrawal.

 

5 hours ago, Camille said:

My parents still want to hospitalize me and give me some meds but I am afraid I'll react badly to them and suffer more.

 

There is a big chance of adding meds when hospitalized. And yes, this may things make worse.... 

 

 

On 9/1/2021 at 11:06 AM, Go2zero said:

My conclusion is that you have made an extreme change in dose when going from 8,75 to 3,5 mg in february of this year. The theory about stronger effect in liquid form does not hold!

 

The effect of such an big dosage change may be felt not before 2-4 months after doing so. So the fact that you felt worse and worse after May this year, may very well be the result of this way too big drop in dosage in February (or March high you also mention somewhere)

 

On 9/2/2021 at 3:14 AM, Altostrata said:

This is incorrect. By substituted 3.5mg for 8.75mg, you made a huge decrease in your overall dose and probably precipitated worse withdrawal with additional decreases by May.

 

We need to get things clear about how you make your liquid and how long you keep it (and how long kept it before during the last period). This will enable to come with a better conclusion what happened and what you can do.

 

 

Please answer all the underneath questions. We need to have your answers in order to give a decent advice ! Please answer to questions of the moderators here. 

 

On 9/2/2021 at 3:14 AM, Altostrata said:

@Camille, how are you making your liquid? How long are you keeping it?

 

On 9/1/2021 at 11:06 AM, Go2zero said:

How do you make the solution? Please explain in detail. Maybe the problem of your current situation lies in making mistakes in making the solution. 

 

How much mg of the pill (pill weight and active ingredient) do you use? How much water do you use? How long do you keep the solution? (it should be kept for maximum 5 days and refridgerated). When you use too much water (you write 125 ml per day?) the solution may loose strength much earlier during 5 days. Or the active ingredient will not spread evenly when using too much water.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Go2zero

1993    Anafranil (Clomipramine) for a few months. Later in 1993 Paxil for a few months 1993- 2006      No medication

2006   Effexor, Cymbalta, some Benzo’s. All for short periods. Later in 2006 Lexapro (escitalopram) 10 mg and shortly after Wellbutrin XR 150mg, against side effects Lexapro 

Since 2006 until end of 2015: Several times on and off Lexapro and Wellbutrin and several slight dosage changes. Mostly taken dosages: 5mg Lexapro and 150mg Wellbutrin

2016  Dosage change Lexapro from 5mg to 2,5 mg. Wellbutrin stayed om 150mg

November 2016 – April 2017 Down from 2,5mg to 0,6mg Lexapro (in steps) without much problems. Wellbutrin down from 150mg to 66mg. Also without much problems.

April 2017 – March 2019       Lexapro 0,6 mg        April 2017 - August 2018       Wellbutrin in small steps down from 66mg in to 37,5 mg . Quite heavy WD after each step.

March 2019 – May 2019 Lexapro down from 0,6 to 0,3mg then Prozac to 0,6 mg switch because severe discontinuation effects (may also have been from Wellbutrin..)    

Wellbutrin down from 37,5mg to 35,3mg 

October 2019        Seroquel 12,5 mg for 4 weeks because of extreme sleeping problems, then weaning off in 2 weeks       Prozac up dosage to 1,2 mg

March 2020     Wellbutrin in 2 steps down from 35,3mg to 33,3mg   Extreme withdrawal affects during 8 months. Stopped tapering Wellbutrin  until total off Prozac. February 2020 – November 2020   Prozac down in steps from 1,2mg to 0,57mg. 

Jan 2021 Prozac down to:  0,55> 0,53>0,51mg,   Feb 0,47mg ,  Mar 0,42mg,   Apr 0,37, longer hold because of WD symptoms July 0,36 and hold again

 

Supplements: Fish Oil (3000mg), Magnesium 100 mg, 2 drops of Lavender Oil when feeling anxiety. 50mg of L-Theanine when severe discontinuation effects caused by Wellbutrin

 

Please note this is NOT a medical advice. Discuss all your medical issues with a doctor who understands psychical drugs and really knows how to withdraw from them. I wish that you will find one.

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  • Mentor

@Camille  Hang in there Camille,  everything will work out, listen to the mods they will help get things figured out for you.❤️

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/24894-greatful-is-this-withdrawal-or-to-many-med-changes-at-once/

1995? Prozac,  tried several Paxil, Serzone, St John's Wart back to Prozac and Trazodone ct:d Traz

 Lexapro. Tried to stop Crash in 2015  Kindled   Hospitalized, Vybrid, Seroquel, Effexor, Abilify  Pristiq, Wellbutrin 2016  ended back on 2016  Prozac and Lamictal 200mg

5/2020  through 12/2020 taper from 20mg  Prozac  down to 3mg.  Crashed  12/13/2020 Zoloft 50mg 1/29ct  1/29/2021 Seroquel 50mg ct  Trazadone 50mg 4/25  25mg 2/5/ 2021 Lamictal 150mg.  2/24  100mg   4/9  75mg   4/21 37.5  2/12/2021 Wellbutrin 75mg.  Became hypo manic 2/16 ct

2/16/2021 Seroquel 50xr  3/3 100mg  3/17  150mg  side effects ct   4/3 2021 Lexapro 5mg  4/14  7.5mg  4/30 10mg  5/10  7.5mg   5/16  5mg

 5mg Lexapro   37.5 Lamictal   25mg trazadone,   xanax  .0625mg  3x a day   Magnesium glycinate 200mg. Omega 3 , Melatonin L Theanine 

Lexapro 2021/01/09 4.90mg  05/09  4.75mg

 

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On 9/1/2021 at 11:06 AM, Go2zero said:

My conclusion is that you have made an extreme change in dose when going from 8,75 to 3,5 mg in february of this year. The theory about stronger effect in liquid form does not hold!

@Go2zeroThanks a lot for trying to help me. I don't think that's the reason for what happened because had I done the 10% taper, I would also be at 3mg by July (started my taper in September). I think we are all different and tapering is a solution for some people but for others it doesn't work that easily. We are all on this website because doctors don't believe we're capable of assessing our own symptoms and their cause (they'll say it's our anxiety acting up even though we know it isn't). Here I am reporting that for me 3mg was like a threshold, above it I had absolutely no symptoms (except for anhedonia) and below it all hell broke loose. So I don't think it was a problem of not tapering slow enough. Antidepressant Withdrawal is not like benzo withdrawal where symptoms are kind of predictable every time you decrease your dose. For example on 10mg, i was not anhedonic and when I decreased to 7,5mg I was anhedonic. I don't think the anhedonia "WD symptom" could have been avoided by tapering slower. It's a structural thing that happens and that will take years to resolve and was not avoidable even by tapering slower. That's what I mean with the term "threshold dose". This website is great but one obvious conclusion it should draw is that we are all different and some people should not be advised to go off their ADs and maybe we should tell some people that if they feel good on their AD and if they're at risk for withdrawal, it's not worth the risk of tapering because tapering AD is not like tapering Benzo, you don't know what to expect, even if you're ideologically against ADs, the ideology is not worth the suffering. This website is about awareness of severe Withdrawal from ADs. One conclusion of the existence of such a phenomenon is that some people should not be advised to come off their meds, ever ! especially if they're not feeling bad on them. 

On 9/3/2021 at 11:51 AM, Go2zero said:

 

We need to get things clear about how you make your liquid and how long you keep it

I dissolve 3,75mg of pill in 150mL of water every morning and extract 30mL with a seringe, leaving me with 120mL of solution or 3mg. I don't think that's the problem.

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

Link to post
On 9/1/2021 at 11:23 AM, Go2zero said:

 

What kind of adverse reactions you get when you updose. When and how did you updose? What was your dosage and with how much did you updose?

When I updosed from 7,5mg to 10mg last December, I experienced insomnia and a very disturbing feeling of inner agitation that did not completely go away after reducing again.That's why I am afraid of uping my dose, I don't want to experience this inner agitation.

Right now, the crisis is over, i can eat again and am not feeling as unbearably bad as I was, just exhausted and depressed. What happened was crazy and just shows how unpredictable WD is.

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

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  • Administrator
Altostrata
13 minutes ago, Camille said:

When I updosed from 7,5mg to 10mg last December, I experienced insomnia and a very disturbing feeling of inner agitation that did not completely go away after reducing again.

 

Your body was telling you that 10mg was too strong for you, @Camille This rather disproves your theory that more is better, doesn't it?

 

From the history in your signature, it is perfectly clear that your reduction from 8.75mg escitalopram tablet to 3.5 liquid provoked worse symptoms, symptoms that are not associated with depression or whatever psychiatric disorder you think you have but acute antidepressant withdrawal.

 

However, if you think tachycardia proves that you need to be a lifelong psychiatric patient, you are probably correct.

 

On 9/3/2021 at 1:21 AM, Camille said:

My parents still want to hospitalize me and give me some meds but I am afraid I'll react badly to them and suffer more.

 

Your parents want to do this because they think you're saying you want drug treatment for your symptoms.

 

Of course, it's highly likely that if you go into the hospital, you will come out on a batch of drugs. But that's your choice, and your theories seem to go in that direction -- you believe you need drug treatment, and apparently are sometimes very dramatic in your demands for help. This is what your parents are responding to.

 

We do not provide drug treatment here, we provide peer support for going off drugs.

 

I am not sure why you are participating here. You have strong opinions about what you've experienced from voluntarily going off Lexapro and ignoring everything we've told you here about withdrawal. You seem to be convinced you need drug treatment. Why do you not simply go to the hospital, get your drugs, and argue with your doctors instead of arguing with us and your parents?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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  • Moderator

Camille,

Not sure where you are getting this impression that we are encouraging people to come off of antidepressants on this website - we are telling people that IF they want to come off of them, they can reduce their withdrawal symptoms by doing it slowly. No one is saying that people will not have withdrawal symptoms if they taper slowly but whatever symptoms they have will be more bearable than if they stopped taking their medicine abruptly. This, in turn, will allow them to lead a more normal life if they taper at a very slow rate - less than 10% of their previous dose every 4 weeks.

 

You have made a 60% drop which has caused you severe symptoms. Maybe you didn't know not to make such a big drop or you did know and made the drop anyway. Either way it was a choice you made and it was a mistake.

Your logic on how you would have reached the same dosage in 3-4 months anyway and how that means that you should be better by now is simply wrong. You can jump off of an 11 story building instead of taking the stairs but you won't be back on your feet in 10 mins after that even it that's how long it would have taken you to come down the stairs. 

 

You will now have to live with your mistake. People here are trying to help you not to make that mistake again by pointing your errors. What you do with that advice is up to you and you will have to bear the consequences of that decision be it suffering, hospitalization, putting your life on hold etc.

 

You seem to have your theories that are not empirically supported about what is going on and refuse to listen to the common wisdom and refuse to accept that you have made that mistake. That's your right but in that case you can't blame your serious symptoms on what we say or on what you claim we do. 

 

We are in the business of helping people suffer less withdrawal symptoms if and  when they decide to come off their medications. We do that by giving advice based on our common experience, on the mistakes of others and based on current research literature. We advocate a harm reduction approach.

 

You are free to do whatever you want and to take as many drugs as you want. It's your body and you're the one suffering. 

 

However, you are not in a position to tell other suffering people what to do and what they should have done. In their sensitized state this can actually cause harm and that's not something we condone.

 

Hope you stay well and recover quickly.

OMW

 

If you would like to get a response from me directly please type @Onmyway some place in your message so I get notified of your post. I am not able to follow all of the threads all the time.

 

Aug  2000 - July 2003 (ct, 4-6 wk wd) , citalopram 20 mg,  xanax prn, wellbutrin for a few months (don't remember dates), trazodone prn 

Dec 2004 - July 2018 citalopram 20 mg, xanax prn (rarely used)

Aug 2018 - citalopram 40 mg (self titrated up)

September 2018 - January 2019 tapered citalopram - 40/30/20/10/5 no issues until a week after reaching 0

Feb 2019 0.25 xanax/day, then 0.5/day (3 weeks) over to klonopin 0.25 once a day to manage severe wd

March 6, reinstated citalopram 2.5 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 mg for sleep 2-3 times a week

Apr 1st citalopram 2.0 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 once a week, 

citalopram (liquid) 4/14/19 -1.8 mg, 5/8/19 - 1.6 mg,  7/2719 -1.5 mg,  8/15/19 - 1.35, 2/21/21 - 1.1 (smaller drops in between), 6/20/21 - 1.03 mg, 8/7/21- 1.025, 8/11/21 - 1.02, 8/15/21 - 1.015, 9/3/21 - 0.925 (fingers crossed!)

Supplements: magnesium citrate and bi-glycinate

 

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  • Mentor
Yesyes123

@Camille I believe the way to go is:

 

1. Focus on stabilizing at a single dose

 

2. Start very slowly decreasing dose once stable

 

3. Learn what dose decrease rate works best for you (10%/ month is the guideline)

 

4. Stick to it and be EXTRA careful at dosages below 5mg, and even more below 3mg and as you get lower.

 

Peace and healing

July 2015 - Started Escitalopram 10mg (Lexapro) at age 15. Took it everyday until July 2020 (5 Years)

July 2020 - Turned 21 started tapering off until August (TOO FAST TAPER/ ALMOST SAME AS COLD TURKEY)

August 2020 -  Clear Manic episode (nothing absurd or life threatening)

September 2020 - Start feeling a bit weird

October 2020 - Crashed. The absolute worst time of my life. 

Late October 2020 - Reinstated Escitalopram 10mg. Perscribed Antipsychotics (Lithium, Seroquel) REFUSED

Early November 2020 - Psychiatrist wrongly upped the dosage to 15mg. Still taking 15mg / day as of today. 

 

22 January 2021: 

Beginning to stabilize on 15mg/day Escitalopram (Lexapro) 🧠

Taking 25mg Magnesium Citrate 4x per day / 2000mg Vitamin C Prolonged Release + Kiwis + Fresh Fruit / Salmon everyday for Omega3 Fatty Acids

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On 9/6/2021 at 12:51 AM, Onmyway said:

You have made a 60% drop which has caused you severe symptoms. Maybe you didn't know not to make such a big drop or you did know and made the drop anyway. Either way it was a choice you made and it was a mistake.

Your logic on how you would have reached the same dosage in 3-4 months anyway and how that means that you should be better by now is simply wrong. You can jump off of an 11 story building instead of taking the stairs but you won't be back on your feet in 10 mins after that even it that's how long it would have taken you to come down the stairs. 

So in your logic, someone who experience protracted withdrawal after 1 year off antidepressants could have avoided it by doing the 10% reduction method?

Doing the 10% reduction method, he also would have been off after 1 year.

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

Link to post
On 9/6/2021 at 12:51 AM, Onmyway said:

You will now have to live with your mistake.

Yes I know (mistake being wanting to taper my meds even though I was perfectly fine on them), I just wanted others to avoid the same mistake I did just because they are ideologically against ADs. I want people to understand that tapering does not always avoid terrible WD symptoms. We are not all the same, some people have been ruined by psychiatry, some people can avoid too much suffering by tapering, some people are doing pretty fine on ADs. I though this site was about aknowledging the horrors of WD symptom from ADs and give appropriate advice to each member. Sometimes the appropriate advice is "Please be aware of the dangers of stopping your meds and be sure to weight risks and benefits". In my case, because I thought that tapering would make it all fine, I took the wrong decision.

For example, when I did my first decrease last September and that I experienced anhedonia, I thought that it was a withdrawal symptom that would go away in 2 months. Now I know that it could take years to lift and that tapering would not have made me avoid the anhedonia.

It was completely my fault, I just want other people to avoid it.

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

Link to post

Don't understand

49 minutes ago, Camille said:

So in your logic, someone who experience protracted withdrawal after 1 year off antidepressants could have avoided it by doing the 10% reduction method?

Doing the 10% reduction method, he also would have been off after 1 year.

I  don't understand the discussion.

 

The important thing is that person a who CT on day 1 and person b starts tapering 10 % per month on day 1 they will both be drug free after 2 years. In fact person a will be drug free immediately....

 

Person a may very well have had a terrible time whereas person b had manageable symptoms. Chances are person a will be suffering for another 2 years and person b is doing pretty well.

 

I see it like this. Throwing a ping-pong ball against a window will never crash it. Even if you do it a thousand times. If you smash the weight of 1000 ping-pong balls at once your window will be broken and it might take a lot of effort to fix it.....small manageable steps will cause less damage in the end. That's just how nature, physics and biology works.

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

 

- 2000 - 2014, several years Venlafaxine, stopped 3 times, went back after few years.

- 2016 - Okt 2017 citalopram some months 15 mg some months 20 mg

- Nov 2017- Apr 2018 citalopram 25 mg

- April 2018 -  June 2018 citalopram 3 month TAPER too fast  from 25mg to 16.5 mg (0.1 mg per day decrease, felt horrible and crashed)

- June 2018 - Aug13th 2018 citalopram trying to stabilize at 16.5 mg for 5 weeks, felt absolutely awful.

- August 14th 2018 - April 29th 2019  citalopram 18 mg (1.5 mg updose). Try to stabilize.-

START citalopram TAPER 27 apr 2019 @ 18 mg,    29Jun 16.4 mg / 19aug 15.4 mg / 25aug 15.2 mg / 30sep 14.0 mg / 4dec 13.1 mg

2020  03Jan 12.75 mg / 28Jan 12.29 mg / 18Feb 11.83 mg, 25Feb 11.68 mg hold.. / 7May 11.33 mg hold...., 4Aug 10.98 mg / 5Dec 10.0 mg 4 month hold...

2021 30mar 9.8 mg / 06apr 9.5 mg /  13apr 9.4 mg / 14may 8,5 mg / 04jun 8,0 mg / 11jun 7.75 mg, 02jul 7.35 mg /  09jul 7.2 mg hold 3 weeks during holiday /31jul 7 mg/ 8aug 6.8 mg / 15aug 6.63mg / 22aug 6.5mg / 1sep 6.3 mg / 8sep 6.15 mg / 15sep 6.0 mg

 

 

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  • Moderator
46 minutes ago, Camille said:

So in your logic, someone who experience protracted withdrawal after 1 year off antidepressants could have avoided it by doing the 10% reduction method?

Doing the 10% reduction method, he also would have been off after 1 year.

@Camille please read carefully my previous post. I'm not interested in having a fight with you.

 

What I am telling you is that the level of cumulative misery the person in your scenario 1 (tapering at 10% or less) would go through would be much less than the level of cumulative misery that same person would go through in scenario 2 (cold turkey) over the, let's say, 3 years of coming off of these medicines. That would allow the person who is tapering to hopefully avoid hospitalization, to keep a job, to keep their relationships more or less stable, to be able to enjoy life more. You very well know that the person who is tapering cannot come off of their medicines in 1 year at a 10% reduction unless they jumped off at a fairly unsafe level at the end. 

 

You are one point away from being banned from this site.

 

Our goal is to support people who want to be supported not in having ideological fights on whether going cold turkey off of psychiatric medicines is better than tapering. You might find a better audience for that on Twitter but even the psychiatric establishment agrees that tapering is better than cold turkey quitting so I doubt you'd find support for your idea there either.

 

Hope you feel better soon

OMW

If you would like to get a response from me directly please type @Onmyway some place in your message so I get notified of your post. I am not able to follow all of the threads all the time.

 

Aug  2000 - July 2003 (ct, 4-6 wk wd) , citalopram 20 mg,  xanax prn, wellbutrin for a few months (don't remember dates), trazodone prn 

Dec 2004 - July 2018 citalopram 20 mg, xanax prn (rarely used)

Aug 2018 - citalopram 40 mg (self titrated up)

September 2018 - January 2019 tapered citalopram - 40/30/20/10/5 no issues until a week after reaching 0

Feb 2019 0.25 xanax/day, then 0.5/day (3 weeks) over to klonopin 0.25 once a day to manage severe wd

March 6, reinstated citalopram 2.5 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 mg for sleep 2-3 times a week

Apr 1st citalopram 2.0 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 once a week, 

citalopram (liquid) 4/14/19 -1.8 mg, 5/8/19 - 1.6 mg,  7/2719 -1.5 mg,  8/15/19 - 1.35, 2/21/21 - 1.1 (smaller drops in between), 6/20/21 - 1.03 mg, 8/7/21- 1.025, 8/11/21 - 1.02, 8/15/21 - 1.015, 9/3/21 - 0.925 (fingers crossed!)

Supplements: magnesium citrate and bi-glycinate

 

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  • Moderator
10 minutes ago, jozeff said:

Don't understand

I  don't understand the discussion.

 

The important thing is that person a who CT on day 1 and person b starts tapering 10 % per month on day 1 they will both be drug free after 2 years. In fact person a will be drug free immediately....

 

Person a may very well have had a terrible time whereas person b had manageable symptoms. Chances are person a will be suffering for another 2 years and person b is doing pretty well.

 

I see it like this. Throwing a ping-pong ball against a window will never crash it. Even if you do it a thousand times. If you smash the weight of 1000 ping-pong balls at once your window will be broken and it might take a lot of effort to fix it.....small manageable steps will cause less damage in the end. That's just how nature, physics and biology works.

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

 

Hi @jozeff,

Camille is taking exception to a comment I had made in a previous post. She had said that she made a large (60%?) cut and after a few months wasn't feeling better even though if she had tapered off at the 10% rate she would have been at the same dosage as she is now with the 60% drop and holding.

 

I tried to explain that a large drop is like jumping off of the 10th floor and tapering is like taking the stairs. When you jump from the 10th floor your recovery will take a while before you can walk again. You won't be back on your feet in 10 min even if you could have walked down in 10 min with minimal injury (risk of twisting your ankle still remains).The idea was that jumping and walking are different levels of injury. Maybe not the best analogy but illustrates the idea of larger damage from large jumps than from smaller ones.

 

I see her comment as arguing for the sake of arguing rather than for the sake of coming to a productive solution or learning and this is the last explanation I'm going to give. I don't know what we can offer Camille on this forum if she's not interested in taking our advice.

Edited by Onmyway

If you would like to get a response from me directly please type @Onmyway some place in your message so I get notified of your post. I am not able to follow all of the threads all the time.

 

Aug  2000 - July 2003 (ct, 4-6 wk wd) , citalopram 20 mg,  xanax prn, wellbutrin for a few months (don't remember dates), trazodone prn 

Dec 2004 - July 2018 citalopram 20 mg, xanax prn (rarely used)

Aug 2018 - citalopram 40 mg (self titrated up)

September 2018 - January 2019 tapered citalopram - 40/30/20/10/5 no issues until a week after reaching 0

Feb 2019 0.25 xanax/day, then 0.5/day (3 weeks) over to klonopin 0.25 once a day to manage severe wd

March 6, reinstated citalopram 2.5 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 mg for sleep 2-3 times a week

Apr 1st citalopram 2.0 mg (liquid), klonopin 0.25 once a week, 

citalopram (liquid) 4/14/19 -1.8 mg, 5/8/19 - 1.6 mg,  7/2719 -1.5 mg,  8/15/19 - 1.35, 2/21/21 - 1.1 (smaller drops in between), 6/20/21 - 1.03 mg, 8/7/21- 1.025, 8/11/21 - 1.02, 8/15/21 - 1.015, 9/3/21 - 0.925 (fingers crossed!)

Supplements: magnesium citrate and bi-glycinate

 

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  • Moderator
brassmonkey

This discussion has gone on far past the point of being productive. It is time to put an end to it.

 

This site is dedicated to helping it's members remove these drugs from their bodies and lives in the least painful way possible. We have spent many years and worked with 10s of thousands of people, including many of the top ADWD experts in the world to develop tapering plans that are safe and effective. Using our small staff of volunteers we try to customize our general reduction plans to our members specific needs. It can be an over whelming task at times but we do our best. We do not tell members what to do, but rather provide information and experience as guidance so they can make an informed decision as to the path they wish to follow.

 

Because each persons situation is highly individual their experience will vary. Over the years we have seen just about every type of WD case there is and have learned that they have several things in common. They are all going to take about the same amount of time from first reduction, be it CT or taper, to recovery. How that time is spent, in mild discomfort or acute WD, is what we are trying to control. Slow controlled tapering provides milder symptoms while a CT/fast taper will result in the same amount of time, possibly longer, spent with intense/debilitating acute WD symptoms.

 

It is up to the individual member which path they wish to follow. All of our staff members have been or are going through the same experience as the general members, so we know how it feels. For that reason we express concern for people trying to "get the drugs out of their system as fast as possible". Yes, you will remove the drugs from your system, but you will be paying heavily for it for years to come. Having been there I don't wish it it on anyone.

20 years on Paxil starting at 20mg and working up to 40mg. Sept 2011 started 10% every 6 weeks taper (2.5% every week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 additional weeks), currently at 7.9mg. Oct 2011 CTed 15oz vodka a night, to only drinking 2 beers most nights, totally sober Feb 2013.

Since I wrote this I have continued to decrease my dose by 10% every 6 weeks (2.5% every week for 4 weeks and then hold for an additional 2 weeks). I added in an extra 6 week hold when I hit 10mg to let things settle out even more. When I hit 3mgpw it became hard to split the drop into 4 parts so I switched to dropping 1mgpw (pill weight) every week for 3 weeks and then holding for another 3 weeks.  The 3 + 3 schedule turned out to be too harsh so I cut back to dropping 1mgpw every 4 weeks which is working better.

Current dose 0.000mg 04-15-2017

 

"It's also important not to become angry, no matter how difficult life is, because you can loose all hope if you can't laugh at yourself and at life in general."  Stephen Hawking

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2 hours ago, Onmyway said:

You are one point away from being banned from this site.

 

 I'm absolutely  not in charge here but I didn't get the feeling that Camille was very offensive to anyone.

 

I too have been extremely frustrated and disappointed  while trying to get off these awful meds and have had doubts about what everybody was saying on this website while in withdrawals. We behave like angry kids sometimes and the more experienced moderators and fellow sufferers must correct us and push us back on track again.

 

We came all here for a reason and we shouldn't forget that. So Camille, try to focus on your own healing and not on everybody's theories. It's your body and only you feel what has to be done. If one leaves this forum or gets kicked out nobody will come to your home and help you out. You have to do it yourself and the people around you.

 

Pick the things you like here or that are helpful to you.

 

Hope you will feel better soon!!

 

Jozeff

 

- 2000 - 2014, several years Venlafaxine, stopped 3 times, went back after few years.

- 2016 - Okt 2017 citalopram some months 15 mg some months 20 mg

- Nov 2017- Apr 2018 citalopram 25 mg

- April 2018 -  June 2018 citalopram 3 month TAPER too fast  from 25mg to 16.5 mg (0.1 mg per day decrease, felt horrible and crashed)

- June 2018 - Aug13th 2018 citalopram trying to stabilize at 16.5 mg for 5 weeks, felt absolutely awful.

- August 14th 2018 - April 29th 2019  citalopram 18 mg (1.5 mg updose). Try to stabilize.-

START citalopram TAPER 27 apr 2019 @ 18 mg,    29Jun 16.4 mg / 19aug 15.4 mg / 25aug 15.2 mg / 30sep 14.0 mg / 4dec 13.1 mg

2020  03Jan 12.75 mg / 28Jan 12.29 mg / 18Feb 11.83 mg, 25Feb 11.68 mg hold.. / 7May 11.33 mg hold...., 4Aug 10.98 mg / 5Dec 10.0 mg 4 month hold...

2021 30mar 9.8 mg / 06apr 9.5 mg /  13apr 9.4 mg / 14may 8,5 mg / 04jun 8,0 mg / 11jun 7.75 mg, 02jul 7.35 mg /  09jul 7.2 mg hold 3 weeks during holiday /31jul 7 mg/ 8aug 6.8 mg / 15aug 6.63mg / 22aug 6.5mg / 1sep 6.3 mg / 8sep 6.15 mg / 15sep 6.0 mg

 

 

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  • Mentor
23 minutes ago, jozeff said:

I'm absolutely  not in charge here but I didn't get the feeling that Camille was very offensive to anyone.

 

@jozeff

As Brassmonkey said, this conversation is no longer productive and needs a break.

 

At this point we have members from Spain, France, Netherlands, Brazil, Turkey and USA:

5 to 6 different languages all giving input in a very narrow timeline.

The loss of productivity may simply be the main points of this conversation are being lost in translation.

 

That being said, coming in and reading the last 2 pages all at once, some of the main points of the moderators do not seem to be being grasped by Camille or Yourself.

 

That is why the moderator asked for a break.

So as not to cause anymore emotional upset than necessary.

Please do not add to the accidental frenzy.

 

Thank you.

Edited by Colonial

 Starting ds 2 (12.5 CR'S) = 25 MG PAXIL CR 1/21/15: 1 Pill + 10mg liquid (2 weeks) 2/4: 1 Pill + 9mg Lq (3 weeks) 2/25: 1 Pill + 8 mg lq (1 week) 3/4: 1 Pill + 6 mg lq (2 weeks) 3/18/15 1 Pill + 4 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/1/15 1 Pill + 3 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/14/15 1 Pill + 2 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/29/15 1Pill + 1 mg lq (16 days) 5/15/15 1 12.5 mg Pill ONLY (9 days) 5/24/15 12 mgs liquid (8 days) 6/1/15 11mg lq (12 days) 6/13/15 10 mg.  12/3/15 Drop from 8mg to 7.6 (24 days to) 12/27/15 7.2mgs  8/4/16 6.8mgs,  11/1/16 6.4mgs, 2/5/17 6 mgs  4/3/17 5.6mgs, 4/24/17 5.2mg, 6/13/17 4.8mgs, 9/20/17 4.4mgS, 11/23/17 4 mgs, 1/1/18 3.6 mgs, 2/15/18 3.2 mgs. 4/13/18 2.8mgs, 5/11/18 2.4mgs, 6/10/18 2.0 mgs, 8/4/18 1.6mgs,  9/27/18 1.2mgs, 12/24/18 0.8mg, 3/24/19 0.64 mg,(syringe change issue date?) 4/22/19 0.60 mg, 5/24/19 0.60 mg, 7/7/19 0.52 mgs, 8/4/19 0.44mgs, 11/4/19 0.36mgs, 2/1/20 0.28mgs, 3/1/20 0.24mgs (crash April 6) 6/28/21: Compound started" 0.12mgs 2X day, 8/2921: 0.22mgs, 

 

Original Wellbutrin Dose: 6 months from 9/14 to 3/2015, 300 XL 3/15/15: Half to 150 XL ( severe symptoms started on day 12) 4/16/15: 125mg   for 20 days to: 5/6/15:   100mg  for  15 days to: 5/21/15    75mg  for  10 days to: 6/1/15:  56.25mg      13 days to: 6/13/15: 37.25mg    7 days to: 6/20/15  28.12mg   14 days to: 7/4/15  18.75mg, 7 days to: 7/11/15; RAISE BACK TO: 28.12 to 8/14/15: 18.75mg  20 days to :9/3/15 : 12.5mg, 8/4/16 9mg 1/9/17: 8.5mg 2/8/17 8mg, 3/9/17: 7.6  4/9/17  7.2  5/27/17 6.4 6/24/17 5.8, 8/1/17 5.0, 8/29/17 4.2mgs, 10/2/17 3.5mgs, 12/28/17 2.5mgs, 2/27/18 1.7mgs,  4/19/18 0.8 mgs, LAST DOSE: 6/11/18:  3 YEARS, 2 MONTHS, 27 DAYS...

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Ok, your right!

Let's focus on healing and helping and not on a sideshow. We all need our energy for important stuff 😌

- 2000 - 2014, several years Venlafaxine, stopped 3 times, went back after few years.

- 2016 - Okt 2017 citalopram some months 15 mg some months 20 mg

- Nov 2017- Apr 2018 citalopram 25 mg

- April 2018 -  June 2018 citalopram 3 month TAPER too fast  from 25mg to 16.5 mg (0.1 mg per day decrease, felt horrible and crashed)

- June 2018 - Aug13th 2018 citalopram trying to stabilize at 16.5 mg for 5 weeks, felt absolutely awful.

- August 14th 2018 - April 29th 2019  citalopram 18 mg (1.5 mg updose). Try to stabilize.-

START citalopram TAPER 27 apr 2019 @ 18 mg,    29Jun 16.4 mg / 19aug 15.4 mg / 25aug 15.2 mg / 30sep 14.0 mg / 4dec 13.1 mg

2020  03Jan 12.75 mg / 28Jan 12.29 mg / 18Feb 11.83 mg, 25Feb 11.68 mg hold.. / 7May 11.33 mg hold...., 4Aug 10.98 mg / 5Dec 10.0 mg 4 month hold...

2021 30mar 9.8 mg / 06apr 9.5 mg /  13apr 9.4 mg / 14may 8,5 mg / 04jun 8,0 mg / 11jun 7.75 mg, 02jul 7.35 mg /  09jul 7.2 mg hold 3 weeks during holiday /31jul 7 mg/ 8aug 6.8 mg / 15aug 6.63mg / 22aug 6.5mg / 1sep 6.3 mg / 8sep 6.15 mg / 15sep 6.0 mg

 

 

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  • Administrator
Altostrata

Camille has been insensitive in her responses to other members.

 

We are not an an ideological campaign to persuade people to go off their drugs. We assist people who have made the decision themselves to go off their drugs. If you want to continue to take your drugs, we're not going to argue with you.

 

We have seen that very gradual tapering seems to allow people to go off their drugs with manageable withdrawal symptoms.

 

Sometimes people think taking the drug in the first place was a terrible mistake and others feel, after trying to go off the drug, attempting to go off is a terrible mistake. We have some members who have decided to go back on the drugs. We don't condemn them.

 

In fact, one of the major techniques we recommend here is reinstatement of the drug to reduce withdrawal symptoms, before attempting to taper again. We have lots of people who've done that.

 

@Camille, it seems you regret trying to go off your drug and you're looking for someone to blame other than yourself. You may also be in denial that it can be difficult to go off psychiatric drugs due to factors that have nothing to do with a mental condition. 

 

The purpose of this site is to assist tapering off psychiatric drugs if you choose to do so. There is no point in your continuing to argue with people here about whether anyone, such as yourself, should ever go off psychiatric drugs. It's an individual decision. Any further agitation on your part will get you banned.

 

You may find more validation on sites such as patientslikeme.com or depressionforums.org

 

If you want treatment with psychiatric drugs, there are thousands of doctors who would be willing to prescribe for you. Please let us know should you want assistance with tapering.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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"It is theoretically possible that a minimum threshold of SERT inhibition is required before clinical effect is seen, with levels lower than this having minimal effects; this may correspond to withdrawal effects as well. However, withdrawal effect from other medications do not observe threshold effects, and withdrawal effects have been observed at many doses during tapering of SSRIs, suggesting withdrawal is likely to be continuous entity"https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/files/109308247/Horowitz_Taylor_A_method_of_tapering_SSRI_treatment_to_mitigate_withdrawal_symptoms.pdf

 

 

 

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

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  • Mentor
7 hours ago, Camille said:

 However, withdrawal effect from other medications do not observe threshold effects, and withdrawal effects have been observed at many doses during tapering of SSRIs, suggesting withdrawal is likely to be continuous

 

It's very good news to see your moving past this fascination with "threshold" numbers that you have had since your very first post and are now quoting studies showing that withdrawal is most likely continuous and NOT something that is only the effect of going below a certain level. 

 

Before going forward, please update your medication signature to be in line with requested limits.

 

Drugs, Dates, times and Dosages ONLY.

Please remove symptoms and theories.

We request staying as close as a 12 line "limit" as possible.

 

"As the signature is limited to 12 lines, we expect you will condense your drug history. The last few years usually will do.

 

FOR READABILITY, SHORT LINES ARE BEST.

  • A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs
  • Include ALL drugs, doses, and dates (starting and stopping)
  • Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years
  • Use actual dates or approximate dates (e.g. mid-June 2018) rather than relative time frames (e.g. 3 months ago)
  • Spell out months (e.g. "January" or "Jan" as 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as 9 Jan 2016 or 1 Sept 2016)
  • Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses

 

This is all that is needed:

 

February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg:  7,5mg then 5mgJune 15 : lowered to 2,5mg 

June 19  5mg/June 23:  10mg, Sept 2020  7,5mg  March 4th :  3mg,  May 26th :2,7mg  June 3rd :3,125mg,

 

With a concise history as such, it is quite clear the WD symptoms are due from too rapid a taper with not enough time inbetween dosages to stabilize

 

How to Summarize Drug History in Signature - Introductions and updates - Surviving Antidepressants

 

 

 

 

 Starting ds 2 (12.5 CR'S) = 25 MG PAXIL CR 1/21/15: 1 Pill + 10mg liquid (2 weeks) 2/4: 1 Pill + 9mg Lq (3 weeks) 2/25: 1 Pill + 8 mg lq (1 week) 3/4: 1 Pill + 6 mg lq (2 weeks) 3/18/15 1 Pill + 4 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/1/15 1 Pill + 3 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/14/15 1 Pill + 2 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/29/15 1Pill + 1 mg lq (16 days) 5/15/15 1 12.5 mg Pill ONLY (9 days) 5/24/15 12 mgs liquid (8 days) 6/1/15 11mg lq (12 days) 6/13/15 10 mg.  12/3/15 Drop from 8mg to 7.6 (24 days to) 12/27/15 7.2mgs  8/4/16 6.8mgs,  11/1/16 6.4mgs, 2/5/17 6 mgs  4/3/17 5.6mgs, 4/24/17 5.2mg, 6/13/17 4.8mgs, 9/20/17 4.4mgS, 11/23/17 4 mgs, 1/1/18 3.6 mgs, 2/15/18 3.2 mgs. 4/13/18 2.8mgs, 5/11/18 2.4mgs, 6/10/18 2.0 mgs, 8/4/18 1.6mgs,  9/27/18 1.2mgs, 12/24/18 0.8mg, 3/24/19 0.64 mg,(syringe change issue date?) 4/22/19 0.60 mg, 5/24/19 0.60 mg, 7/7/19 0.52 mgs, 8/4/19 0.44mgs, 11/4/19 0.36mgs, 2/1/20 0.28mgs, 3/1/20 0.24mgs (crash April 6) 6/28/21: Compound started" 0.12mgs 2X day, 8/2921: 0.22mgs, 

 

Original Wellbutrin Dose: 6 months from 9/14 to 3/2015, 300 XL 3/15/15: Half to 150 XL ( severe symptoms started on day 12) 4/16/15: 125mg   for 20 days to: 5/6/15:   100mg  for  15 days to: 5/21/15    75mg  for  10 days to: 6/1/15:  56.25mg      13 days to: 6/13/15: 37.25mg    7 days to: 6/20/15  28.12mg   14 days to: 7/4/15  18.75mg, 7 days to: 7/11/15; RAISE BACK TO: 28.12 to 8/14/15: 18.75mg  20 days to :9/3/15 : 12.5mg, 8/4/16 9mg 1/9/17: 8.5mg 2/8/17 8mg, 3/9/17: 7.6  4/9/17  7.2  5/27/17 6.4 6/24/17 5.8, 8/1/17 5.0, 8/29/17 4.2mgs, 10/2/17 3.5mgs, 12/28/17 2.5mgs, 2/27/18 1.7mgs,  4/19/18 0.8 mgs, LAST DOSE: 6/11/18:  3 YEARS, 2 MONTHS, 27 DAYS...

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I was on 3mg from March to now. For 5 months, I no anxiety, no depression, nothing, no suffering. Twice during this period I tried going below 3mg, once at 2,7mg and once at 2,8mg. Both time it created unbearable suffering that completely resolved after going back at or above 3mg (except now). Let's accept that people experience AD WD differently. We're on this website because doctors don't believe that we could be experiencing what we are experiencing because the majority of people don't. We're the best suited to understand that we are all different in the way we react to this med and to WD. Let's aknowledge that other people's experiences might differ from our own.

 

Of course, tapering has minimized the amount of suffering. I do not deny that. I would be in a worse shape today had I gone directly to 2,5mg for example. And from now on, if I choose to continue my taper, I'll do an extremely slow taper and suspect symptoms after each decrease to be increased anxiety and its consequences (such as insomnia). Basically from now on, I suspect tapering will indeed be pretty continuous and predictable.

 

There are other accounts of people on this website doing a respectable taper, not experiencing barely any WD symptoms until they reach a certain point/threshold and all hell suddenly break loose. 

 

The same way going below 10mg created anhedonia. 10mg = no anhedonia/ below 10mg = anhedonia. Does that not look like the definition of a threshold? I mistakenly thought the anhedonia was a transient normal WD symptom that was gonna go away after a few weeks of stabilization, like a diminution of my ability to feel pleasure that was gonna "up-regulate" gradually in a way, it didn't. and then it was too late and I couldn't go back on 10mg.

 

AD tapering is not a continuous , linear and predictable process for everyone. It is not the same as benzo tapering/withdrawal. I believe AD WD has both a continuous aspect to it and a thereshold aspect to it for some people.

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

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Hi Camille,

 

I find the threshold thought interesting but I think you went into withdrawal from jumping from 3 to 2.7 mg. If I go down by 10 % at once Im starting to feel terrible in a day or 3-5. If I do a  2.5 % decrease I get manageable symptoms.

 

I couple of years ago I thought 15 mg citalopram was the sweet spot but I take 6 mg currently  and I don't feel better or worse than I did back then.

 

The trick is to go so slowly your body doesn't notice the different.  For person a this could be cold turkey and for person b this could take 5 years.

 

I think it sounds reasonable to assume that 3 years would be sufficient to go off any drug at any dose for a healthy person. Unfortunately there are a lot of people here who suffered CT withdrawals or switched drugs too many times and are damaged and need more time to heal.

 

Gridley  or brassmonkey  once said to me: you are overthinking stuff...

I think you might be doing the same.

 

Thinking about these things is ok but sometimes we have to accept that we just don't know everything.

 

 

Hope you get well!

 

Jozeff

 

- 2000 - 2014, several years Venlafaxine, stopped 3 times, went back after few years.

- 2016 - Okt 2017 citalopram some months 15 mg some months 20 mg

- Nov 2017- Apr 2018 citalopram 25 mg

- April 2018 -  June 2018 citalopram 3 month TAPER too fast  from 25mg to 16.5 mg (0.1 mg per day decrease, felt horrible and crashed)

- June 2018 - Aug13th 2018 citalopram trying to stabilize at 16.5 mg for 5 weeks, felt absolutely awful.

- August 14th 2018 - April 29th 2019  citalopram 18 mg (1.5 mg updose). Try to stabilize.-

START citalopram TAPER 27 apr 2019 @ 18 mg,    29Jun 16.4 mg / 19aug 15.4 mg / 25aug 15.2 mg / 30sep 14.0 mg / 4dec 13.1 mg

2020  03Jan 12.75 mg / 28Jan 12.29 mg / 18Feb 11.83 mg, 25Feb 11.68 mg hold.. / 7May 11.33 mg hold...., 4Aug 10.98 mg / 5Dec 10.0 mg 4 month hold...

2021 30mar 9.8 mg / 06apr 9.5 mg /  13apr 9.4 mg / 14may 8,5 mg / 04jun 8,0 mg / 11jun 7.75 mg, 02jul 7.35 mg /  09jul 7.2 mg hold 3 weeks during holiday /31jul 7 mg/ 8aug 6.8 mg / 15aug 6.63mg / 22aug 6.5mg / 1sep 6.3 mg / 8sep 6.15 mg / 15sep 6.0 mg

 

 

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  • Mentor
8 hours ago, Camille said:

I was on 3mg from March to now. For 5 months, I no anxiety, no depression, nothing, no suffering. Twice during this period I tried going below 3mg, once at 2,7mg and once at 2,8mg. Both time it created unbearable suffering that completely resolved after going back at or above 3mg

 

I think the understanding of a "threshold" as your using it is much more complex and contains many more variables than just what ever particular dose you arrived at when not feeling well.  You remain fixated on a number without bringing the other calculations into effect and doing so, you fail to see how the other issues that have gone wrong in your taper are now playing a bigger part than you recognize.

 

This phenomena can and does happen to people anywhere along their taper if they have not waited enough time to stabilize before dropping again or a host of other things in their lives, illness, stress, etc

 

The important thing to remember is just because we are symptom free at that moment does NOT mean our brains and bodies have completely recovered from what has gone before and we can restart the taper.

 

In reality, you had set yourself up for these sorts of crashes by your entire taper being too fast.

You went from 15mgs to 3 in a very short time.  In fact, you had hints of problems headed your way in September 2020 when you "went anhedonic" at 7.5 mgs

 

Your mistaking the very last move you made as the reason for your troubles in stead of understanding the symptoms are a sign the entire taper was too fast.  Then you accidentally set your central nervous system up for a kindling effect where any drop you make can be difficult as a result of this.  Perhaps this is what your doing, mistaking a kindling effect and the fact that you have rushed the taper throughout as something other than it is.

 

Just because Your symptom free for a few months does not mean your ready to re begin your taper. It all depends on everything that has gone before if your system needs more time. Some members need 6-12 months.

 

So while there are times, as you say, where people are going along and seem to get "stuck" at a certain level, you can generally go back and find places in the overall taper that were too fast, based not on just the formula, but on their entire life in play.  Also, what is too fast is different for everyone. I personally think the 10% every 4 weeks, seems to work well at higher med levels, it is too much at lower levels and 5% every month to 6 weeks is better.

 

Now, in a sense, if your just playing a game of language, one might say that is a "threshold" of sorts, where the percentage drop needs to be lowered per drop or the wait time extended, but that does not extrapolate that the threshold itself is the problem, it is that the person is continuing to try to drop too high a percentage at lower levels of the drug. 

 

You dropped 10% from 3.0 to 2.7 and had problems, the thing to do is make smaller percentage drop of 5% and test the waters, so to speak.  How well one does depends on it they had done the beginning of their taper too fast and did not wait long enough to recover in between crashes.

 

Again, just because one is currently symptom free does not mean one has fully recovered. It very well may have been that if you had waited 9 months to stabilize at the 3mg mark after the issues at the 7.5 mark, you may have been fine dropping to 2.7mgs.  But in all honesty?  You did not wait long enough to stabilize when you up dosed back to the 7.5 mark after that crash. You fail to bring that into your equation.  You have failed to see the subtle signs along the way that indicated your particular taper was too much, too fast.

 

So, the understanding of thresholds does have merit in knowing what the total amount of stress and drops our bodies can endure in a certain period of time, but it is based on many factors, NOT just a particular dose level. One's entire life has to be taken into account, illness, stress, a death in the family, etc. Wether a taper is too fast or not is based not just on med calculations

 

In reality, by the time you crash at a certain dose level, you had already passed the point of no return in failing to factor in many other variables that had more to do with your body hitting its "cumulative threshold" than the dose you are now at and want to blame as being the problem

 

I have held a sort of theory similar to yours, that there is a cumulative amount per 6 months and per year that the body can take, and that "threshold", as you like, is much lower than 10% every month.  That there is a cumulative threshold per year our body can take, and if we rush through that, we end up crashing and needing extended holds of 6 months, etc.  But notice it is the entire cumulative threshold over time that is the issue, not a particular mg mark that is the problem. 

 

In theory, your on the right track in realizing there is something bigger at play, your just blaming the result as the problem and not seeing the inner working of everything at play.

Edited by Colonial

 Starting ds 2 (12.5 CR'S) = 25 MG PAXIL CR 1/21/15: 1 Pill + 10mg liquid (2 weeks) 2/4: 1 Pill + 9mg Lq (3 weeks) 2/25: 1 Pill + 8 mg lq (1 week) 3/4: 1 Pill + 6 mg lq (2 weeks) 3/18/15 1 Pill + 4 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/1/15 1 Pill + 3 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/14/15 1 Pill + 2 mg lq (2 weeks) 4/29/15 1Pill + 1 mg lq (16 days) 5/15/15 1 12.5 mg Pill ONLY (9 days) 5/24/15 12 mgs liquid (8 days) 6/1/15 11mg lq (12 days) 6/13/15 10 mg.  12/3/15 Drop from 8mg to 7.6 (24 days to) 12/27/15 7.2mgs  8/4/16 6.8mgs,  11/1/16 6.4mgs, 2/5/17 6 mgs  4/3/17 5.6mgs, 4/24/17 5.2mg, 6/13/17 4.8mgs, 9/20/17 4.4mgS, 11/23/17 4 mgs, 1/1/18 3.6 mgs, 2/15/18 3.2 mgs. 4/13/18 2.8mgs, 5/11/18 2.4mgs, 6/10/18 2.0 mgs, 8/4/18 1.6mgs,  9/27/18 1.2mgs, 12/24/18 0.8mg, 3/24/19 0.64 mg,(syringe change issue date?) 4/22/19 0.60 mg, 5/24/19 0.60 mg, 7/7/19 0.52 mgs, 8/4/19 0.44mgs, 11/4/19 0.36mgs, 2/1/20 0.28mgs, 3/1/20 0.24mgs (crash April 6) 6/28/21: Compound started" 0.12mgs 2X day, 8/2921: 0.22mgs, 

 

Original Wellbutrin Dose: 6 months from 9/14 to 3/2015, 300 XL 3/15/15: Half to 150 XL ( severe symptoms started on day 12) 4/16/15: 125mg   for 20 days to: 5/6/15:   100mg  for  15 days to: 5/21/15    75mg  for  10 days to: 6/1/15:  56.25mg      13 days to: 6/13/15: 37.25mg    7 days to: 6/20/15  28.12mg   14 days to: 7/4/15  18.75mg, 7 days to: 7/11/15; RAISE BACK TO: 28.12 to 8/14/15: 18.75mg  20 days to :9/3/15 : 12.5mg, 8/4/16 9mg 1/9/17: 8.5mg 2/8/17 8mg, 3/9/17: 7.6  4/9/17  7.2  5/27/17 6.4 6/24/17 5.8, 8/1/17 5.0, 8/29/17 4.2mgs, 10/2/17 3.5mgs, 12/28/17 2.5mgs, 2/27/18 1.7mgs,  4/19/18 0.8 mgs, LAST DOSE: 6/11/18:  3 YEARS, 2 MONTHS, 27 DAYS...

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • Administrator
Altostrata

I have no idea what this "threshold" argument is about and would like to see it stop.

 

When they get down to very low doses, some people have to take a vacation from tapering for a while and let their nervous systems regroup. This is explained by the ever-increasing angle of the curve shown in Horowitz & Taylor, 2019. At a very low dose, it is almost perpendicular, meaning further reductions will slide quickly down in terms of receptor occupancy.

 

There is probably individual variance in the shape of the curve. If you run into trouble reducing below 3mg, your nervous system is telling you that you need to reduce more gradually, to tiptoe down that very steep curve.

 

@Camille how are you doing now?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Hello Altostrata, I was suffering to a degree that i didn't imagine was humanely possible, I wanted to die every second of the day, I had never experienced something like that, my original condition did not compare at all to that. So obviously, I am 100% convinced that I was experiencing withdrawal and not a return of my original condition. I was convinced that there were nothing to be done for me and was imploring my parents to kill me. They brought me to a hospital, I told them that I was terrified of taking any medication but they convinced me to try ECT. I had 3 sessions already and have been feeling better after each one. Today I feel almost completely normal albeit some memory loss , a bit of confusion and some trauma of what happened. i just hope that it'll last, I'm so scared that it'll come back.

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

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Altostrata

That's good, @Camille It's rare we hear of success with ECT.

 

You've had 3 ECT sessions over 3 weeks. In what ways were you feeling bad before ECT, that have changed since you've had ECT?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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I mentioned the "threshold" argument not just for the sake of arguing but because I want people to be aware that tapering does minimize the suffering but does not necessarily avoid it completely and I think some people should be advised to stay on their meds. I've just been traumatized by my own experience and wish that NO ONE experience the same. 

I had 3 ECTs in 1 week. Before the ECT, I woke up on August 1st in a state of intense constant panic and unbearable mental torment that made me suicidal every minute of the day (I had never been suicidal in the slightest of ways before) that I had experienced when trying to further diminish my meds on May 26th. This was in no way my "original depression" or even a depression.

After the first ECT, life was bearable but I was not fine either, after the second I was further better and after the 3rd one, so as of right now, I'm feeling almost normal, although completely traumatized by what happened. I hope this is gonna last, I'm so scared that it won't

 

  • February 2020LEXAPRO 15mg/April : lowered to 10mg/Mai : 7,5mg then 5mg/June 15 : lowered to 2,5mg --> major WD living hell)
  • June 19 : back on 5mg/June 23: back on 10mg, major WD gone after a few days /End ofJuly 2020 : feeling amazing
  • September 2020 Lower to 7,5mg --> Instantly anhedonic
  • December 2020 : Decides to up my dose because I really can't take the anhedonia anymore --> insomnia + vision disturbances + what I think was akathesia. From that failed updose remains a feeling of inner tension (mild aka ?) that I will often feel later on 
  • February Started the process of converting my solid dose to a liquid "homemade" dose --> figured out that for me the liquid was way more "powerful" than the solid 
  • March 4th :  3mg
  • May 26th : 108mL<-> 2,7mg --> symptoms : high heart rate (120 when just standing), dry mouth and eyes, difficulty sleeping, crying spells, anxiety (whereas anxiety and sadness are completely inexistent on 120mg, it's like there's some sort of passage where under 3mg, feelings come back full force with almost no "transition" from 0 to 100, it's like under 3mg, the zombie/suppression of feelings effect of the med is inefficient, like a threshold)
  • June 3rd : back on 125mL <-> 3,125mg, completely stable again a few days later, no suffering whatsoever, just the anhedonia
  • August 1st : hit with intense panic, cortisol, cannot eat. 

 

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  • Administrator
Altostrata

What kinds of benzodiazepines did you receive during your ECT treatments?

 

While you have your opinions, you do not know what you're talking about when it comes to tapering off drugs. You may take that as a hint not to persist.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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