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Manati: Effexor-withdrawal - in need of HELP, please!


Manati

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Dear all,

 

first of - please excuse my English, I'm not a native speaker and writing from Germany.

I only found this site yesterday, while desperately trying to find any helpful advice online. I wish I had found it earlier, preventing me from tapering off Effexor/Venalfaxine too quickly.

 

I have been on Effexor since 2005 for panic attacks, and remember having massive aversive effects when first taking it. My doc reassured me to keep taking it, and indeed after some time, the early unbearable restlessness and anxiety disappeard, and so did the panic attacks.

 

Fast forward 14 years without greater crisis, I noticed increased irritability and sensitivity to all sorts of stimuli (especially sounds!). I felt stable enough mentally, and slowly started tapering down from 75mg Effexor around May (I don't remember exactly) and experienced no problems whatsoever until down to around 33mg. Then I accidentally forget a dose - and felt fine! So I made the probably big mistake of just stopping it then and there. This was on 26th September, so almost 13 weeks ago.

 

Shortly after, hell broke loose, with the terrible physical symptoms Effexor withdrawal is known for: brain zaps, insane irritability, aggressive feelings towards myself etc. I was desperate to 'pull through' and did so with all my willpower. I spent my days running outside with my dog to distract myself and get rid of that terrible energy. It was really tough, but very 'physical', and I was sure it would subside after a while. Indeed, after 2 weeks, the very worst physical symptoms had faded, and disappeard almost completely after 4 weeks. What remained was a feeling of being 'raw' and hypersensitive to all sorts of stimuli/sounds, being totally overwhelmed by everything. Someone recommended CBD oil and this seemed to help indeed. So - after about 6 weeks, I was pretty much 'done' with the physical/tangible side of withdrawal.

 

And that's when it started to get REALLY bad! I started having TERRIBLE long-term states of sheer TERROR in the early morning-hours, that lasted until mid day. Honestly, those states are so much worse that 'simple' panic attacks, and entail my inner-deepest, worst imaginable FEARS, and last for HOURS! And this is still pretty much the status quo - I wake up in the early morning hours in a state of sheer hell which won't fade until late in the day. I literally shake through it, and nothing helps to improve it. Since a few days, I hear a light piercing sound in my left ear, and also feel really nauseous in the mornings.

 

I'm clueless at what to do - my doc prescribed pregabalin/lyrica, but I am unsure of whether to take it. In this forum I read about reinstating the original med in case of having tapered off to quickly - but honestly I am dead scared of touching the Effexor ever again! I remember how restless, anxious and irritable I felt when I first took it, and I think after my unlucky taper I'd probably be hypersensitive to this. I think it would really kick me over the edge. On the other hand, I am scared of whats happening in my brain these days - is it improving? Can I rely on that and should keep 'waiting it out'?? Are there any experiences of a too-quick Effexor taper with a happy end? Should I introduce the Lyrica to give my system a rest/take the edge off? I am so scared and clueless - please I'd be so grateful for any advice!!!!

 

Thank you so much in advance, and Merry Christmas!!

 

 

 

 

Edited by manymoretodays
spacing for readability

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

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  • manymoretodays changed the title to Manati: Effexor-withdrawal - in need of HELP, please!
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Hello,    I hope you can find some relaxation and peace. I try to utilize online zoom support meetings whenever possible although they are rare here in the USA, might be better where you are

Hi @Manati! Thanks again for your post on my intro page. Just to speak to your self-loathing: I do think it is something that many of us have experienced, and there is reason to think that it can all

As Alto and MMT have pointed out reinstatement is a slow and tricky process of trying to get things to balance out without making them worse. It is best to start very small and SLOWLY work you way up

  • Moderator
manymoretodays

Hi Manati and welcome,

 

So the 26th of September was your last dose of Effexor.

Please summarize your withdrawal history in your signature to help us out.

 

And your written English is great, I had no problems reading and understanding.  I did put a bit of spacing in your initial post for ease of reading.

 

On 12/24/2020 at 9:33 AM, Manati said:

I'm clueless at what to do - my doc prescribed pregabalin/lyrica, but I am unsure of whether to take it. In this forum I read about reinstating the original med in case of having tapered off to quickly - but honestly I am dead scared of touching the Effexor ever again! I remember how restless, anxious and irritable I felt when I first took it, and I think after my unlucky taper I'd probably be hypersensitive to this. I think it would really kick me over the edge. On the other hand, I am scared of whats happening in my brain these days - is it improving? Can I rely on that and should keep 'waiting it out'?? Are there any experiences of a too-quick Effexor taper with a happy end? Should I introduce the Lyrica to give my system a rest/take the edge off? I am so scared and clueless - please I'd be so grateful for any advice!!!!

 

For now, if I were you, I think I would hold on starting the Lyrica.

 

And yes, ideally, reinstatement with the drug that you've withdrawn from may be the best option.

About reinstating and stabilizing to reduce withdrawal symptoms

* and definitely take a good read through the first post in that topic link, and the  "what we have learned about reinstatement"

And then let us know your thoughts.

 

Do you have any Effexor at present?  And if so, what type or kind?

Tips for tapering off Effexor and Effexor XR(venlafaxine)

And then to get a feel for if you would be "hypersensitive" to it, we would have you reinstate at just a really low dose, of just 0.5 mg to 1 mg at this point in time.

You'll see in the ^ link, the different types of Effexor, and then the options on, how to get such a low dosage.

 

And yes, WD(withdrawal) symptoms can so often be so harsh, and so much worse than what so many of us ever experienced before medications.

 

We go with a harm reduction model for tapering:

Why taper by 10% of my dosage

and then often at the lower dosages, it is wise even go slower, with a final jumping off dose, being less than 1 mg.

 

I'm going to stop there for now, so that we can get you started.  And can definitely get you pointed to more information soon, as well.  It does sound like you have gotten a little familiar with the site.  There is a ton here.

 

This is your Introduction page now, where you have introduced yourself to the community, and is the best place to ask questions around your specifics, as well as do updates, and communicate with members and staff.  Welcome again.  Glad you have joined us.

 

Best, Love, peace, healing, and growth,

moderator manymoretodays(mmt)

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016. 

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

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  • Moderator
manymoretodays

Hi again,

And some additional information about WD:

 
 
 
And it does sound like you are experiencing some symptoms now.
 
 

 

When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made.  The CNS likes stability. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur. And sleep is really important during withdrawal. 
 
We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system.   Best to just introduce one thing new at a time, and at a low starting dose too.  That way you can know better exactly what might be causing what, be it improvement or worsening symptoms.

 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

Have you continued the usage of CBD oil?

 

Lot's of non-drug coping for symptoms as well, in the Symptoms and Self Care forum

 

And okay, best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016. 

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

Link to post

Dear Manymoretodays ♥️

 

Thank you so much for your kind reply, I am so glad there is anyone out there who cares.

I've updated my signature, hope it is ok like that.

Thank you also for the links you sent - I wish I had known about properly tapering off Effexor before this entire nightmare started. Symptomwise, the early morning cortisol spikes are the worst - the panic they induce won't fade until afternoon!! I couldn't possibly bear this for much longer, I hardly get any sleep and can't function.

 

I am seriously worried about reintroducing the Effexor to my now raw system - I remember the suffering/irritability/aversive effects I went through when first taking it, and that was in a much healthier place... I understand that I'd only start with a microdose - now how could I tell that I'd definitely be oversensitized to it? I would expect a worsening of anxiety and overall symptoms as 'normal' part of introducing it to the system. However, now that I'm in this raw state, this might even be worse - so how would I know that my system still 'accepts' the drug?

 

Many many thanks for your response! 🙏

 

Oh, and I haven't proceeded with the CBD oil, but was thinking about trying it again tonight - it did seem to help me with my irritability/feeling of being overwhelmed earlier in the withdrawal process.

 

 

 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

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  • Moderator
manymoretodays

Hi Manati,

Did you get a chance to read through the reinstatement topic?  Are you able to read okay in English?

We'd just have you reinstate with a tiny dose of Effexor, and then would ask you to do some objective observations daily with the reinstatement.

If you did feel much worse, say, than the symptoms you are now having, then we would have you just stop the reinstatement.

Do you have any left from when you were on it?  And if so, what type?

 

Here's what we have on CBD oil: 

In general the responses are so mixed, and not always long lasting either.  So we don't recommend it for WD.  It could make things worse too.  And then you would have to wait again for even a modicom of WD stability.

 

Have you had a chance to look at the Magnesium and Fish Oil/Omega 3 topics?

You could try just one of those to see if it helps with WD symptoms too now.

 

Or for sleep, you might start with just .25 or .5 mg melatonin.  And try some of the additional helps here:

Tips to help sleep: so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

Sleep IS so important. 

 

Early-morning waking- managing the morning cortisol spike

 

Oh Manati, so tough with so little sleep, I bet right now.  Please keep updating and posting with questions, or if you do decide you'd like to try a small reinstatement. 

So many going through just what you are here.   So know that you are not alone.

 

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016. 

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

Link to post

Dear Manymoretodays! 💓

 

Thank you so much for your kind and thorough response, your help and interest means a lot to me!!

Thanks also for your research and info on CBD - I think I won't take it right now, in order to be able to identify the effects of the Venlafaxin reinstatement. I am taking Omega3 though, and will get some Magnesium tomorrow.

 

I have read through the reinstatement topic once again and found the answers I had overseen before.

 

So, yesterday evening, I took one bead (approx. 0.4mg) of my old Venlafaxin retard prescription to test for adverse reaction. I thought I would notice one easier in the evening, when I'm usually calm. No bad reaction whatsoever. Also, the night wasn't any worse than the night before - rather a bit better. I had one major anxiety attack in the morning, but was okay afterwards. So I took 2 beads this time (0.8mg) around 11am. Apart from a slightly increased heart rate I felt no difference and the afternoon was okay. Later on, I had a headache and the ringing in my ears was really loud. Right now, I'm feeling a bit emotionally fragile and slightly anxious, but it's not too bad or worse than on other days.

 

Can I interprete that as a good sign? Also, I wonder if I should stick with the 2 beads (0.8) or go back to just one - my last dose before CT was around 33mg.

 

Thank you so much for your time and effort!!

 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

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  • Moderator
manymoretodays

Hi Manati,

Yah, could be a good sign.

I think, if I were you, I would stick with the 2 beads(that you found to be equivalent to 0.8 mg), and take them at the same time, each day.  11 a.m. sounds good.

 

Give a good try at doing some Notes too, and then posting in 24 hour segments:  Keep daily notes of drug schedule and symptoms to track patterns and progress

And here's the sample note(from the quote in the ^ link):

The time of day, dosage, and severity of symptoms are essential information. Include

 

- Time and dosage for all drugs taken throughout the day, psychiatric and non-psychiatric.

- Following each dose, note any symptoms. If you are having a reaction to the drug, it may take hours for a symptom to show up -- that's why we ask you to keep notes all day long.

- If you're not taking any drugs, your symptoms throughout the day.

- Your sleep pattern. Since so many drugs disturb sleep, if you find you're waking in the middle of the night, it could be from a drug you took earlier in the evening. If you're not taking any drugs, there may be ways you can improve your sleep.

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, looking something like this:
 

Example:


DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

It generally takes about 4-7 days to get to steady state.  And so far, so good......Manati.  My fingers are crossed and feeling hopeful.  Effexor reinstatements,  ARE one that I have seen work so very well, for some. 

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

 

 

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016. 

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

Link to post

Dear Manymoretodays,

 

thank you very much for your response. I did take some notes over the entirel withdrawal process, but will do so in more detail now, especially since I'm trying to resinstate. I fell asleep around 1am last night, then woke up with in a MASSIVE panic at 3.27h that kept me up for hours. Around 5, I left the house to walk/run a but, which helped to calm my system - however I still couldn't sleep for a quite a while. Fell asleep until around 9am, woke up anxious and with a sad/blank feeling. I took 1 Bead of the Venlafaxine around 10am, planning to take the 2nd around 1pm or so - to see if this might have any effect on my nightly terror.

While I was in my unbearable anxiety tonight, I was really worried about what to do if the Venlafaxin shows no positive (or even adverse) effect after reaching serum level in a few days. Will I not be left in an even worse situation, once I reintroduced the drug to my system, then having to withdraw again in such a state? Do you have any thoughts/encouragement in that matter?

I'm really worried about that, I hope and pray that the Venlafaxine will show effect!

 

Thank you for caring

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

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  • Moderator
manymoretodays

Hi Manati,

Try, try not to worry yourself worse, or panic.

 

Just for now, I think you might do better with sticking with the same dose, at the same time, each day.

And then try to post with the times over on the left, and then the rest, like the sample note.

You can always post a bit more, in narratives below that, or in a separate post.

 

I honestly, don't think that you'll be in an even worse situation, if you do have more adverse effects to the reinstatement.   And you haven't had a whole lot of ups and downs with your dosing, prior to jumping off in September........so I'm hopeful, that if you do need to abandon reinstatement.......that it won't put you in too much of a worse situation, than the one that you came in with.  I hope that makes sense, or reads clearly to you.

 

And okay, things you can do non-drug wise with the fears/anxiety and panics:

 

See if there is anything in the other links I gave you that might help.

 

And then......calming, calming, relaxation stuff that might give you a break, or some windows:

*Yoga for calming

And if you scroll down in the ^, you'll find the legs against the wall pose, and links to other simple poses.  I found many of these to be so helpful when cognitively.......thinking just was not going to touch my symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed out nervous system

 

Dealing with Emotional Spirals

 

Withdrawal Dialogues - Acceptance

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxY4MrQoTjE

 

Relaxation exercises, guided meditations, calming videos, sleep hypnosis

 

"Change the channel" dealing with cognitive symptoms

 

Some really simple stuff too, for example, have you gotten out for a brief walk today yet?  Gotten all cleaned up and dressed or in some comfy house clothes?  Harder than it sounds, I know, if you are "in symptoms" but sometimes I just had to do it anyway, and then it helped.

 

Are you eating okay?

 

And then, a whole slew of things that might begin to help with the anxiety, over time, and with practice, and especially that secondary fear mentioned below, fear of the fear itself:

 

We strongly encourage members to learn and use non drug coping techniques to help get through tough times.

 

Understanding what is happening helps us to not get caught up with the second fear, or fear of the fear.  This happens when we experience sensations in our body and because we don't understand them we are scared of them and then start to panic.

 

This document has a diagram of the body explaining what happens in the body when we become anxious:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/docs/AnxietySelfHelp.pdf

 

 

Audio FEMALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Audio MALE VOICE:  First Aid for Panic (4 minutes)

 

Non-drug techniques to cope

 

dealing-with-emotional-spirals

 

Dr Claire Weekes suffered from anxiety and learned and taught ways of coping.  There are videos available on YouTube.

 

Claire Weekes' Method of Recovering from a Sensitized Nervous System

 

Audio:  How to Recover from Anxiety - Dr Claire Weekes

 

 
Resources:  Centre for Clinical Interventions (PDF modules that you can work through, eg:  Depression, Distress Intolerance, Health Anxiety, Low Self-Esteem, Panic Attacks, Perfectionism, Procrastination, Social Anxiety, Worrying)
 
Wishing you well Manati.  Thanks for updating.
 
L, P, H, and G,
mmt

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016. 

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

Link to post

Dear Manymoretodays 💓

 

Thank you so much for your kind response and also all the helpful links to easy anxiety.

 

I hope you are right, and I'll be alright in case of having to stop the reinstatement. At least I don't seem to have any adverse effects so far, my night was a little bit better then the one before - I got some magnesium yesterday, took a dose before going to sleep and then a little crumb whenever I woke up with that anxious feeling. Maybe it was placebo, or other factors played into it, but I might keep that emergency routine.

The morning was harsh though, with anxiety, sadness and hopelessness. Also really bad headache. I just came back from a long walk and feel a little better. I walk outside in nature for hours every day, and my diet is healthy, too (maybe should cut down on sugar a little bit, but apart from that I mainly eat healthy low fat vegetarian food and a good amout of veggies/fruit). I have lost quite a bit of weight under all that stress, but I'm not underweight yet and generally very healthy. I should exercise more, it seems to help a bit.

 

1 am: went to bed after taking 400mg magnesium, the sound in my ears was very present and worried me

around 2.30 am: woke up briefly with an anxious feeling, took some magnesium and managed to go back to sleep

4:40am: same procedure - woke up anxious but super tired, took a crumb magnesium and fell asleep again

7:00am: same

9am: woke up with a feeling of anxiety, sadness and hopelessness. Also with a feverish/hot headed feeling and loud sound in my ear that really worries me!

11am: really anxious and sad during breakfast

12am: took my 2 beads of Venlafaxine, 0.8mg

12.30 - 14.15 went for a long Winter walk

15:00 feeling really tired but not anxious. Take 1400mg omega 3 fish oil

 

I know I should try and keep my head up in this situation, but it is so hard to have hope after those months of terror - I'm really losing my strength.

 

Thanks for caring!

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post

Hello, 

 

I hope you can find some relaxation and peace. I try to utilize online zoom support meetings whenever possible although they are rare here in the USA, might be better where you are, they have them for ad w/d and SI, intrusive thoughts. 
 

I also find Micheal Sealy guided meditations to be second to none. 
 

-Humanist 

1998 -2000 started and stopped several SSRIs because of bad reactions, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutrin
2004 to 2006 Prozac 20mg

2004  Klonepin(daily 15 days)VERY bad cold turkey reaction after 15 days of use. 
2012, rehab inpatient alcohol, marijuana (sober since)

2012- present trazadone 50mg (At bedtime) tried twice to stop. 
2012-2017 Prozac 20mg, stopped Prozac CT without many problems. 

12/16/20- present lexapro 10 mg

12/27/20 started rapid lexapro taper 2.5mg every 2 days after only 11 days of use. Drug interaction problems with  trazadone suspected. 
1/2/21 last day of lexapro
1/321 now trying to stabilize on trazadone enough to begin taper. I was not using the trazadone in a consistent  way starting in late October and it thru me into wd  like symptoms. I was taking it at wildly different times each day because my sleep schedule (bed time) would fluctuate. 

 

Link to post
9 hours ago, Humanist56 said:

Hello, 

 

I hope you can find some relaxation and peace. I try to utilize online zoom support meetings whenever possible although they are rare here in the USA, might be better where you are, they have them for ad w/d and SI, intrusive thoughts. 
 

I also find Micheal Sealy guided meditations to be second to none. 
 

-Humanist 

 

Thank you so much Humanist, for your kind words and support! 💓

 

How did you find the links to those zoom meetings?

I'll try out a meditation guided by Micheal Sealy too - thank you very much for the tip!

 

I also hope your Lexapro taper is going well so far!

 

 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post

Hi Manymoretodays and all you kind people out there 💓

 

I'm back in a slightly new state and many questions..

 

Woke up a few hours ago in a feeling of EXTREME, torterous AGITATION and hopelessness. I'm a hot mess.

 

I wonder if the agitation is a result of the Venlafaxin showing effect? Is it rather a good sign or does it point to an adverse reaction? Do you know if it is typical for reinstating Venlafaxine?

I remember feeling similar when introducing the Venlafaxine to my system 15 years ago - but it could also be just some 'flattened' anxiety. I could keep major anxiety attacks at bay during the night, while sleeping lightly and waking up about every hour. Still extremely tired now, but too agitated to sleep.

 

I'm relieved that I didn't have those terrible states of panic during the night, but have no idea if this is already due to the few beads of Venlafaxine that I reinstated 3 days ago? Or could it be a mere effect of the magnesium I started taking around the same time?

 

I suppose I should continue with my reinstatement routine? (2 Beads)

 

What do you think?

 

Feeling dreadful and really down - wish I could crawl out of my skin.

 

Thank you for caring!! 💓

 

Took 400mg Magnesium before going to bed

2am: fell asleep

4:05am woke up anxious, with a 'cold electric feeling' in my head

4:46am again

5:44am same, also feeling really exhausted

6:57am same

7:46 am same

8:00 am got up

8:00 - 12:00am feeling really agitated, anxious, hopeless and helpless

12am: took 2 beads of Venla

 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post

..allow me one  more question that I worry about: am I not just sensitizing my body to those extremely low doses of Venlafaxine? In this case, won't it be nearly impossible to taper it off at some point in the future? If 2 beads will make such a difference??

Sorry for being a bother - I'm just in a really worried state...

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
  • Moderator
manymoretodays

Hi Manati,

I've asked for some further input Maniti. B)

 

And I'm not quite sure what you are asking.

It won't be impossible to taper off later.

 

If you are sensitive to venlafaxine, and/or other drugs like it.........yes, you could be reacting to this small dose.

I haven't noticed that you had noted feeling worse, than how you felt on arrival.......or that symptoms were increased.

 

At first you had noted improvements overall.

So I would want to be sure that you are not noticing any improvement, before abandoning the reinstatement.

 

You might still be stabilizing a bit now too, post your usage of CBD oil and htp5.  Those were after your FT, I believe.

 

Can you update in your signature, adding in your reinstatement doses and date started:  Accountsettings/signature

With the 2 beads, I am thinking that you started that on December 26 or 27th, last Saturday or Sunday?

So today may be just day 4 or 5.

 

And then, do you know if the Retard brand of venlafaxine you are using is extended release?

What dose capsule are you taking your beads from?

And then how many beads in the whole capsule?

 

And thank you for doing notes Mantati.   What time did you take the Magnesium(post the time to the left of)?  

Try to get the whole 24 hour period covered, before posting.  I want to see what happened after your 12 noon venlafaxine.  Your last note doesn't show anything after.  Don't post things like "same" because I don't know what you mean.

 

And yes, you sound very worried.  Sending comfort.  And hoping you are walking now, or doing something that is offering some relax.

 

Best, L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

 

 

 

 

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016. 

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

Link to post
9 hours ago, Manati said:

How did you find the links to those zoom meetings?

I'll try out a meditation guided by Micheal Sealy too

 @Manati 

 

To find the meetings you'll have to do some internet searching. Here in the US they are known as peer to peer support meetings online. They are usually sponsored by mental health centers. 

 

It's Michael Sealey by the way, I spelled it wrong before. 

 

My rapid taper is only 3 days in. I'm trying not to make any perceived or real symptoms worse than they are by magnifying them with my mind. 

 

Best-Humanist

1998 -2000 started and stopped several SSRIs because of bad reactions, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutrin
2004 to 2006 Prozac 20mg

2004  Klonepin(daily 15 days)VERY bad cold turkey reaction after 15 days of use. 
2012, rehab inpatient alcohol, marijuana (sober since)

2012- present trazadone 50mg (At bedtime) tried twice to stop. 
2012-2017 Prozac 20mg, stopped Prozac CT without many problems. 

12/16/20- present lexapro 10 mg

12/27/20 started rapid lexapro taper 2.5mg every 2 days after only 11 days of use. Drug interaction problems with  trazadone suspected. 
1/2/21 last day of lexapro
1/321 now trying to stabilize on trazadone enough to begin taper. I was not using the trazadone in a consistent  way starting in late October and it thru me into wd  like symptoms. I was taking it at wildly different times each day because my sleep schedule (bed time) would fluctuate. 

 

Link to post
27 minutes ago, Humanist56 said:

 @Manati 

 

To find the meetings you'll have to do some internet searching. Here in the US they are known as peer to peer support meetings online. They are usually sponsored by mental health centers. 

 

It's Michael Sealey by the way, I spelled it wrong before. 

 

My rapid taper is only 3 days in. I'm trying not to make any perceived or real symptoms worse than they are by magnifying them with my mind. 

 

Best-Humanist

 

Thank you very much for the info, Humanist 💓 - I'll search for them in a minute (I don't think we have anything similar over here in Germany but will double-check).

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your taper going well - tell me about magnifying symptoms, I understand you so well!

Hey at least you'll be able to reinstate the Lexapro at any point things get too uncomfortable.

I'm sure you'll be fine!!

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
7 minutes ago, Manati said:

Thank you very much for the info, Humanist 💓 - I'll search for them in a minute (I don't think we have anything similar over here in Germany but will double-check).

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your taper going well - tell me about magnifying symptoms, I understand you so well!

Hey at least you'll be able to reinstate the Lexapro at any point things get too uncomfortable.

I'm sure you'll be fine!!

 Thanks Manati @Manati.  Here is the link to some of the meetings I attend https://www.westernmassrlc.org/   Not sure with the time difference they'll work for you but there is a meeting tonight (alternative to suicide). This may give you an idea of what you can search.  You can also search for emotions anonymous zoom meetings in Germany or Europe. There are countless AA 24/7 zoom meetings that are easy to find, the peer to peer mental health meetings are harder to find. 

 

I hope you enjoy Michael Sealey, to me he is the best for guided meditations to relax and experience our own power to relax and get immediate relief from acute anxiety in the moment. His sleep meditations work wonders. Try the long ones that are 50 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. 

 

I can relate to your worry about reinstating at a low does and then trying to get off of that later. It's hard to understand what are actual symptoms of w/d and what is my regular baseline that led me to seek the drug in the first place. 

 

Best of luck to you my friend. 

 

-Humanist 

1998 -2000 started and stopped several SSRIs because of bad reactions, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutrin
2004 to 2006 Prozac 20mg

2004  Klonepin(daily 15 days)VERY bad cold turkey reaction after 15 days of use. 
2012, rehab inpatient alcohol, marijuana (sober since)

2012- present trazadone 50mg (At bedtime) tried twice to stop. 
2012-2017 Prozac 20mg, stopped Prozac CT without many problems. 

12/16/20- present lexapro 10 mg

12/27/20 started rapid lexapro taper 2.5mg every 2 days after only 11 days of use. Drug interaction problems with  trazadone suspected. 
1/2/21 last day of lexapro
1/321 now trying to stabilize on trazadone enough to begin taper. I was not using the trazadone in a consistent  way starting in late October and it thru me into wd  like symptoms. I was taking it at wildly different times each day because my sleep schedule (bed time) would fluctuate. 

 

Link to post

Dear Manymoretodays,

 

thank you very much for your response.

Sorry for not providing the full 24h schedule - I'll do so from now on. Also, I'll update my signature.

 

I think the Venlafaxine is extended release. I was taking 75mg capsules originally (before tapering down to 33mg), each containing 221beads. So one should contain about 0.3-0.4mg I calculated. I have not been taking any of the CBD oil or htp5 recently. Only Omega3 and now magnesium in the evening.

 

Overall, I'm not feeling worse than when I started. In fact, my nights have improved a bit since day 2 of reinstating the microdose, I'm not sure if that's due to the  magnesium that I started taking at the same time, or indeed an effect of the microdose.

What's new now and hard to deal with is the extreme agitation in the morning. I'm not planning on abandoning the reinstatement, I was just wondering if 0.8mg can have such an effect already, and if so, how hard it may be to taper off such microdoses.

 

If I understood the reinstatement instructions correctly, I should wait a little longer before upping the microdose?

 

Thank you for your support and advice!

 

Took 400mg Magnesium before going to bed

2am: fell asleep

4:05am woke up anxious, with a 'cold electric feeling' in my head

4:46am woke up again anxious and with a headache still

5:44am woke up again, headache and feeling really anxious and exhausted

6:57am woke up, anxious

7:46 am woke up, anxious

8:00 am got up

8:00 - 12:00am feeling really AGITATED, anxious, hopeless and helpless

12am: took 2 beads of Venla (0,7/0,8mg)

13.30pm - 15.30pm went for a walk with my dog, feeling down, helpless and ruminating, but not agitated

From 16pm - evening: feeling numb, depressed and pretty hopeless, but not agitated

22.30 omega3 fish oil 1400mg

23.00pm - 23.30pm walk with my dog, no change in mood

23:40 pm 400mg magnesium

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
3 hours ago, Humanist56 said:

Thank you so much, Humanist, for your kind and thoughtful response! 💓

 

Many thanks also for the links - I had no idea such meetings exist, and will definitely check them out.

I'll look up a Michael Sealey meditation on youtube right away, it might help me when trying to go to sleep in a minute.

 

Thank you also for your feedback on my particular worry of tapering off of a microdose one

day - it is a scary thought that the difference between a hellish night and relative peace may consist in only 0.8mg of a substance. You are right, original symptoms and wd effects seem to blur..

 

Sending you a virtual hug from nightly Germany, my friend!

 

3 hours ago, Humanist56 said:
3 hours ago, Humanist56 said:

 Thanks Manati @Manati.  Here is the link to some of the meetings I attend https://www.westernmassrlc.org/   Not sure with the time difference they'll work for you but there is a meeting tonight (alternative to suicide). This may give you an idea of what you can search.  You can also search for emotions anonymous zoom meetings in Germany or Europe. There are countless AA 24/7 zoom meetings that are easy to find, the peer to peer mental health meetings are harder to find. 

 

I hope you enjoy Michael Sealey, to me he is the best for guided meditations to relax and experience our own power to relax and get immediate relief from acute anxiety in the moment. His sleep meditations work wonders. Try the long ones that are 50 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. 

 

I can relate to your worry about reinstating at a low does and then trying to get off of that later. It's hard to understand what are actual symptoms of w/d and what is my regular baseline that led me to seek the drug in the first place. 

 

Best of luck to you my friend. 

 

-Humanist 

 

 

3 hours ago, Humanist56 said:

 

 

3 hours ago, Humanist56 said:

 

Thanks Manati @Manati.  Here is the link to some of the meetings I attend https://www.westernmassrlc.org/   Not sure with the time difference they'll work for you but there is a meeting tonight (alternative to suicide). This may give you an idea of what you can search.  You can also search for emotions anonymous zoom meetings in Germany or Europe. There are countless AA 24/7 zoom meetings that are easy to find, the peer to peer mental health meetings are harder to find. 

 

I hope you enjoy Michael Sealey, to me he is the best for guided meditations to relax and experience our own power to relax and get immediate relief from acute anxiety in the moment. His sleep meditations work wonders. Try the long ones that are 50 minutes to 1 1/2 hours. 

 

I can relate to your worry about reinstating at a low does and then trying to get off of that later. It's hard to understand what are actual symptoms of w/d and what is my regular baseline that led me to seek the drug in the first place. 

 

Best of luck to you my friend. 

 

-Humanist 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
  • Administrator
3 hours ago, Manati said:

Overall, I'm not feeling worse than when I started. In fact, my nights have improved a bit since day 2 of reinstating the microdose, I'm not sure if that's due to the  magnesium that I started taking at the same time, or indeed an effect of the microdose.

 

What time of day do you take the 2 beads of venlafaxine XR? Do you often have an anxiety surge in the morning? Is this before or after you take venlafaxine?

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post

Dear Altostrata,

 

thank you so much for looking into my case! I take the Venlafaxine around 11am/noon. I had EXTREME anxiety surges in the morning, they started 6 weeks after stopping the Venlafaxine.

The anxiety has improved since reinstating, however, I am extremely agitated now at 4am local time and wide awake. This feeling of extreme agitation started yesterday morning, about 5 days after reinstating. I cannot keep my body/legs still or sleep.

 

What do you think of the situation? Is this extreme agitation an adverse effect or a normal reaction to reinstating? Is it likely an effect of reinstating at all, at only 0.7/0.8mg? Should I stick to this dose at this point?

 

Thank you so much for caring!!

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
  • Administrator

It's very common that people whose nervous systems have been sensitized by withdrawal experience this anxiety spike in the early morning. See

 

Waking with panic or anxiety -- managing cortisol spikes

 

Tips to help sleep -- so many of us have that awful withdrawal insomnia

 

Path to Better Sleep FREE online for everyone from the US Veterans Administration

 

Music for self-care: Calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

Link to post

Dear Altostrata,

 

thank you for your response and the helpful links - I'm familiar with the one regarding cortisol spikes, and will look into the others you've sent.

I am blocking out the light of my bedroom, also the anxiety attacks have been replaced by this torterous agitation and piercing headache now since reinstating. I can hardly bear it, I don't feel I can handle this for more days/nights to come.

In your experience, will the agitation pass? Is it a result from reinstating? I'm not sure if it an adverse effect of reinstating and I should stop, or if it is normal and will pass??

 

Thank you for your input, I'm really in a bad place right now.

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
  • Administrator

If you are reliably getting the headaches at the same time since taking 2 beads per day, I would back down to 1 bead per day. If they continue after a week, discontinue.

This is not medical advice. Discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical practitioner.

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has surpassed our humanity." -- Albert Einstein

All postings © copyrighted.

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Dear Altostrata,

 

thank you very much for your answer. The agitation and headache have only set it yesterday after waking up. The agitation was the bigger problem, it faded with the morning and only came back right now. I cannot identify a consistent timely connection with the Venlafaxin intake yet, as it only started yesterday.

It seems to have replaced the anxiety attacks that I had before, and which were even harder to bear. So I do think the reinstating helped in a way and I'm reluctant to give it up...

I am hoping the agitation is a normal side effect of reintroduing the substance, as I remember feeling really agitated when I first took it 15 years ago. Back then, the agitation faded after some time.

 

I am worried that the anxiety attacks will come back if I stop the reinstating process, and they were even worse.

 

Thank you for your input - I just lack experience with the 'usual' patterns of the reinstatement process and therefore keep asking for advice

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post

Dear Manymoretodays, Altostrata, and everyone who cares 💗

 

So, last night was a challenge - I woke up extremely agitated and couldn't go back to sleep for hours. I prefer this to the anxiety attacks, but it was still torture. I was thinking about checking myself in to a clinic these days, but decided against it since I'm scared of being put on a full dose of Venlafaxine then. I'm still hoping the Venlafaxin microdose is showing effect by converting the nightly anxiety attacks into agitation (which is still bad enough).

 

1:30am went to sleep

2:30am woke up anxious for the first time, but could go back to sleep

3:23am woke up extremely agitated, couldn't keep my legs still nor go back to sleep until around 6am. I also had a headache and a piercing sound in my ears.

8:00am woke up with headache, sound in my ears, feeling desperate.

10:00am breakfast, feeling

12:15pm took 2 beads venlafaxine, still sound in my ears

13:00pm - 15:00pm went for a walk, feeling better

16:30pm took 2 drops of CBD oil

18:00pm - 21:00pm: really bad anxiety! I wonder if this as a paradox effect from the CBD oil?? I ususally feel better in the evenings, and don't think the anxiety was due to the 2 beads of Venlafaxine. Also, really weird feeling of tension in my head.

22:00pm omega3 fish oil, still tense feeling in my head, but not feeling as anxious as before.

 

Tomorrow will be day 6 of reinstating the microdose of 0.7/0.8mg - should I strictly wait out the full 7 day period, or try 3 beads instead of 2 already?

 

Thanks for caring and your input!

 

 

       

 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post

@Manati there is a zoom meeting in about 10 minutes 6:30 EST usa, Zoom meeting I’D is 88546024377

 

I ‘m hoping they have it, sometimes they dont. I’m hoping you feel better and please hang in there. 
 

You can leave your video off. 

1998 -2000 started and stopped several SSRIs because of bad reactions, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutrin
2004 to 2006 Prozac 20mg

2004  Klonepin(daily 15 days)VERY bad cold turkey reaction after 15 days of use. 
2012, rehab inpatient alcohol, marijuana (sober since)

2012- present trazadone 50mg (At bedtime) tried twice to stop. 
2012-2017 Prozac 20mg, stopped Prozac CT without many problems. 

12/16/20- present lexapro 10 mg

12/27/20 started rapid lexapro taper 2.5mg every 2 days after only 11 days of use. Drug interaction problems with  trazadone suspected. 
1/2/21 last day of lexapro
1/321 now trying to stabilize on trazadone enough to begin taper. I was not using the trazadone in a consistent  way starting in late October and it thru me into wd  like symptoms. I was taking it at wildly different times each day because my sleep schedule (bed time) would fluctuate. 

 

Link to post
43 minutes ago, Humanist56 said:

Thank you so much, kind soul!! 💗

I only just saw the message, I'll try if it's on in a minute..

Thank you so much for your kind wishes, too! I'm dreading the night (it's 1am here now), but will try to keep strong! It helps that there are good people like you out there!

 

 

@Manati there is a zoom meeting in about 10 minutes 6:30 EST usa, Zoom meeting I’D is 88546024377

 

I ‘m hoping they have it, sometimes they dont. I’m hoping you feel better and please hang in there. 
 

You can leave your video off. 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
1 hour ago, Humanist56 said:

@Manati there is a zoom meeting in about 10 minutes 6:30 EST usa, Zoom meeting I’D is 88546024377

 

I ‘m hoping they have it, sometimes they dont. I’m hoping you feel better and please hang in there. 
 

You can leave your video off. 

 

..it was closed already, but I'll try next time :)

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
Humanist56

@Manati there is one tomorrow at 5pm EST USA. 
 

Zoom meeting ID. 548 390 511

 

I wish you well, you’re not alone. 

1998 -2000 started and stopped several SSRIs because of bad reactions, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutrin
2004 to 2006 Prozac 20mg

2004  Klonepin(daily 15 days)VERY bad cold turkey reaction after 15 days of use. 
2012, rehab inpatient alcohol, marijuana (sober since)

2012- present trazadone 50mg (At bedtime) tried twice to stop. 
2012-2017 Prozac 20mg, stopped Prozac CT without many problems. 

12/16/20- present lexapro 10 mg

12/27/20 started rapid lexapro taper 2.5mg every 2 days after only 11 days of use. Drug interaction problems with  trazadone suspected. 
1/2/21 last day of lexapro
1/321 now trying to stabilize on trazadone enough to begin taper. I was not using the trazadone in a consistent  way starting in late October and it thru me into wd  like symptoms. I was taking it at wildly different times each day because my sleep schedule (bed time) would fluctuate. 

 

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  • Moderator
manymoretodays
Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Altostrata said:

If you are reliably getting the headaches at the same time since taking 2 beads per day, I would back down to 1 bead per day. If they continue after a week, discontinue.

Hi Manati,  Do you want to back down to 1 bead a day?  I thought I saw another early morning headache. Might be better to go down rather than up at this point.  And best, L, p, h, g.  mmt  p.s.  thanks for the diligent notes too 🤗

Edited by manymoretodays
Spelling

Started with psycho meds/psychiatric care circa 1988.  In retrospect, and on contemplation, situational overwhelm.

Rounding up to 30 years of medications(30 medication trials, poly-pharmacy maximum was 3 at one time).

5/28/2015-off Adderal salts 2.5mg. (I had been on that since hospital 10/2014)

12/2015---just holding, holding, holding, with trileptal/oxcarb at 75 mg. 1/2 tab at hs.  My last psycho med ever!  Tapered @ 10% every 4 weeks, sometimes 2 weeks to

2016 Dec 16 medication free!!

Longer signature post here, with current supplements.

Herb and alcohol free since 5/15/2016. 

None of my posts are intended as medical advice.  Please discuss any decisions about your medical care with a knowledgeable medical provider. manymoretodays

 

Link to post
1 hour ago, manymoretodays said:

Hi Manati,  Do you want to back down to 1 bead a day?  I thought I saw another early morning headache. Might be better to go down rather than up at this point.  And best, L, p, h, g.  mmt  p.s.  thanks for the diligent notes too 🤗

 

Dear Manymoretodays 💗

 

Thank you for your response! Hmm, I think I'll briefly try one bead more - the fact that those nightly anxiety attacks have shifted since reinstating have left me hopeful for the Venla to show effect. I can deal better with the headaches than those nightly states of terror. I'll watch out of any adverse reaction and cut down then...

It's only 5.44am here, but I could sleep 3,5h, that's pretty good in comparison to the past 2 nights. I'm feeling anxious now, but not in full blown panic, and also not agitated.

 

I'll keep taking notes, and thank you for caring!!

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
3 hours ago, Humanist56 said:

@Manati there is one tomorrow at 5pm EST USA. 
 

Zoom meeting ID. 548 390 511

 

I wish you well, you’re not alone. 

 

Thank you, Humanist!! 💗

That shoud be around 10pm European time - I'll log in if I can!

Thank you so much for your kind support, Humanist!!

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post
Humanist56

@Manati

 

You are welcome. I attended the meeting tonight and I like them. I’ll send you all of the meeting times when I get a chance. There are about 5 per week. 
 

log in about 5 minutes early. 
 

Humanist 

1998 -2000 started and stopped several SSRIs because of bad reactions, Zoloft, Paxil, Wellbutrin
2004 to 2006 Prozac 20mg

2004  Klonepin(daily 15 days)VERY bad cold turkey reaction after 15 days of use. 
2012, rehab inpatient alcohol, marijuana (sober since)

2012- present trazadone 50mg (At bedtime) tried twice to stop. 
2012-2017 Prozac 20mg, stopped Prozac CT without many problems. 

12/16/20- present lexapro 10 mg

12/27/20 started rapid lexapro taper 2.5mg every 2 days after only 11 days of use. Drug interaction problems with  trazadone suspected. 
1/2/21 last day of lexapro
1/321 now trying to stabilize on trazadone enough to begin taper. I was not using the trazadone in a consistent  way starting in late October and it thru me into wd  like symptoms. I was taking it at wildly different times each day because my sleep schedule (bed time) would fluctuate. 

 

Link to post
1 hour ago, Humanist56 said:

 

 

Thank you so much, Humanist, that is very kind of you!! 💗

 

 

1 hour ago, Humanist56 said:

 

 

You are welcome. I attended the meeting tonight and I like them. I’ll send you all of the meeting times when I get a chance. There are about 5 per week. 
 

log in about 5 minutes early. 
 

Humanist 

 

1 hour ago, Humanist56 said:

@Manati

 

You are welcome. I attended the meeting tonight and I like them. I’ll send you all of the meeting times when I get a chance. There are about 5 per week. 
 

log in about 5 minutes early. 
 

Humanist 

 

Fluoxetine (Prozac) (25mg?) from December 2002 - November 2005 for anxiety/depression

Effexor (Venlafaxine) Retard (75mg) due to Panic attacks from November 2005 until around May 2020 when I started tapering off from 75mg to about 33mg in September. Accidentially missed a dose and naively went cold turkey from around 33mg to zero on 26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg) and magnesium (800mg).

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

4th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

19th January: Ashwaghanda supplement

Link to post

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