Manati: Effexor-withdrawal - in need of help, please!

[Altostrata]

Did you move the venlafaxine to the morning?

[Manati]

8 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Did you move the venlafaxine to the morning?

 

Yes I do take it in the mornings now, Altostrata.

 

After browsing hours and hours through the information on here, I suppose introducing Prozac to my system wouldn't help with my hyperactive locus coeruleus/cholinergic system that keeps 'shocking' be back from sleep at night? Or do you think there is a chance it might help compensate via the serotonergic pathway?

 

I've read tons of input on here about prozac, but find it difficult to find an overall 'trend' regarding its efficacy with this specific withdrawal syndrom.

 

The chronic insomnia - especially those moments of being 'shocked' awake as soon as I approach sleep - are my main problem and I can't bear it any longer. I feel my system is crumbling after days without sleep!

 

Since you suffered from the same symptom, I'd be so thankful for your input regarding any measures I could take for that. I've tried the Melatonin but it doesn't stop the 'shocking'. I know you can't give recommendations for any medication, but given the choice between introducing Prozac to regulate the serotonin pathway, or a small dose of Lyrica to give my system a short rest - which one would you consider less harmful??

 

I've read that you developed a paradox reaction to the lyrica - do you think your were taking too much of it that caused it?

 

Sorry for the long winded questions - I realise you are reading so many of them - but your opinion on that would make a huge difference to me!

 

Thank you!!!

 

 

 

[HardTimes]

Hi @Manati! Thanks again for your post on my intro page. Just to speak to your self-loathing: I do think it is something that many of us have experienced, and there is reason to think that it can all be tied up with the new chemical situation, part of the "neuroemotions" (there's a page about these somewhere). But it is insidious, because it doesn't FEEL like a "chemical" or neurophysiological issue, it just feels psychological. If, for example, you were hit by a bus and stuck on the couch for many months while you recovered, you likely wouldn't be preoccupied with feelings of regret and self loathing. Its not your fault you got hit by a bus, and lying around on the couch is just part of what you have to do to recover. But with this thing, it doesn't feel like we got hit by busses. It feels like we're just sitting around on the couch because we suck. And (for me at least), the contrast between who I used to be and this sack of crap stuck on the couch feels enormous, and it sort of makes sense: I DO kind of hate what I have become, and don't want to be this person! 

 

So it makes sense, but you have to try to think, as best you can, that you've kind of been hit by a bus. IT sucks, but that doesn't mean YOU suck. It might mean some days on the couch being a lump, or lots of other things that are different than they were, but that is part of getting better, just like if you were hit by a bus. Some days you'll be stronger than others, and you can "fight" and do all the good things you're meant to do as suggested on this site. And other days you might be a bit of a lump, and you'll feel bad because you don't have the strength to do what you are supposed to to be healthy. My advice is to allow yourself to be a lump sometimes and try some acceptance of that. I actually had a dream to that effect recently, where my mom came and told me that it was perfectly fine if I didn't feel like getting up off the floor today - I could get up when I wanted to! Shoot, just hearing that was so freaking helpful, because I feel like I've been "fighting" this freaking thing for so long, and I just don't always feel up to it!

 

Anyway, didn't mean to start talking about myself. Just to say that accepting some lump hood might be helpful, and that self-loathing can just be part of the picture sometimes and you're not alone in that!

 

(incidentally last night was the first time I didn't have a certain symptom in MONTHS - so things DO change, and WILL change!) 

 

Hang in there!  

[Manati]

5 minutes ago, HardTimes said:

Hi @Manati! Thanks again for your post on my intro page. Just to speak to your self-loathing: I do think it is something that many of us have experienced, and there is reason to think that it can all be tied up with the new chemical situation, part of the "neuroemotions" (there's a page about these somewhere). But it is insidious, because it doesn't FEEL like a "chemical" or neurophysiological issue, it just feels psychological. If, for example, you were hit by a bus and stuck on the couch for many months while you recovered, you likely wouldn't be preoccupied with feelings of regret and self loathing. Its not your fault you got hit by a bus, and lying around on the couch is just part of what you have to do to recover. But with this thing, it doesn't feel like we got hit by busses. It feels like we're just sitting around on the couch because we suck. And (for me at least), the contrast between who I used to be and this sack of crap stuck on the couch feels enormous, and it sort of makes sense: I DO kind of hate what I have become, and don't want to be this person! 

 

So it makes sense, but you have to try to think, as best you can, that you've kind of been hit by a bus. IT sucks, but that doesn't mean YOU suck. It might mean some days on the couch being a lump, or lots of other things that are different than they were, but that is part of getting better, just like if you were hit by a bus. Some days you'll be stronger than others, and you can "fight" and do all the good things you're meant to do as suggested on this site. And other days you might be a bit of a lump, and you'll feel bad because you don't have the strength to do what you are supposed to to be healthy. My advice is to allow yourself to be a lump sometimes and try some acceptance of that. I actually had a dream to that effect recently, where my mom came and told me that it was perfectly fine if I didn't feel like getting up off the floor today - I could get up when I wanted to! Shoot, just hearing that was so freaking helpful, because I feel like I've been "fighting" this freaking thing for so long, and I just don't always feel up to it!

 

Anyway, didn't mean to start talking about myself. Just to say that accepting some lump hood might be helpful, and that self-loathing can just be part of the picture sometimes and you're not alone in that!

 

(incidentally last night was the first time I didn't have a certain symptom in MONTHS - so things DO change, and WILL change!) 

 

Hang in there!  

 

Thank you so much, HardTimes, for your kind and thoughtful response. I do try and see things this way - on a rational level I totally know you are right, but emotions just seem to follow their own rules.

It's hard to accept the lump-hood while waving my life good bye - currently seem to lose my entire future.

I really hope we're getting better!! You seem to experience frequent windows, so I'm really hopeful for you!

 

 

 

 

[tryingtosurvive330]

Manati - did the ashwaganda stop being good for you? I tried lavender and chamomile tea one night, it didn’t work, but I was also having a very bad day with a lot of shame and self loathing. 
 

the “shock” awake you’re speaking of is so familiar to me. Often it’s a shock and other times I will have a flash of a thought of someone else being able to be happy, or a thought of how I’m not progressing and that will jolt me awake and I have to shake my head to try to get it out of my mind, knowing it will make my trying to sleep, worse. 
 

I agree with Hardtimes and you about the lump feeling. It sounds like we’re not alone in feeling this way and it’s very reassuring to know it’s ok for right now. @HardTimesthe image of getting hit by a bus is exactly how this process felt! I said it was a truck, but essentially there was this sudden shocking smack of pain. I felt that it was complete numbness while at the same time horrific pain. It doesn’t make sense. 
 

Manati, I can’t remember the other things you have been trying but I have been doing sleep meditations every night and every single time I wake up. Half the time I just put it on so it feels like I am trying to do something to help rather than laying there thinking “it’s ok to just relax” but really feeling like “I can’t finish the task of going to sleep”. Putting the meditation on low volume even if I can’t completely follow or hear soothes a tiny tiny bit. Maybe you could try, I have downloaded the Calm app. It’s a non drug coping technique and to be honest not sure how much it’s helping but I hope in the long run I will be able to say it was something I did for myself. YouTube is great but also gets interrupted by ads which is very jarring when you’re trying to calm down! How many hours of sleep have you been getting?

[Jennings]

I second the Calm App.  There are a lot of sleep therapies on there.

 

I’m also going to suggest DARE by Barry McDonagh.  It’s similar to Claire Weekes.  I think it’s worth a try.

[Manati]

2 hours ago, tryingtosurvive330 said:

Manati - did the ashwaganda stop being good for you? I tried lavender and chamomile tea one night, it didn’t work, but I was also having a very bad day with a lot of shame and self loathing. 
 

the “shock” awake you’re speaking of is so familiar to me. Often it’s a shock and other times I will have a flash of a thought of someone else being able to be happy, or a thought of how I’m not progressing and that will jolt me awake and I have to shake my head to try to get it out of my mind, knowing it will make my trying to sleep, worse. 
 

I agree with Hardtimes and you about the lump feeling. It sounds like we’re not alone in feeling this way and it’s very reassuring to know it’s ok for right now. @HardTimesthe image of getting hit by a bus is exactly how this process felt! I said it was a truck, but essentially there was this sudden shocking smack of pain. I felt that it was complete numbness while at the same time horrific pain. It doesn’t make sense. 
 

Manati, I can’t remember the other things you have been trying but I have been doing sleep meditations every night and every single time I wake up. Half the time I just put it on so it feels like I am trying to do something to help rather than laying there thinking “it’s ok to just relax” but really feeling like “I can’t finish the task of going to sleep”. Putting the meditation on low volume even if I can’t completely follow or hear soothes a tiny tiny bit. Maybe you could try, I have downloaded the Calm app. It’s a non drug coping technique and to be honest not sure how much it’s helping but I hope in the long run I will be able to say it was something I did for myself. YouTube is great but also gets interrupted by ads which is very jarring when you’re trying to calm down! How many hours of sleep have you been getting?

 

Tryingtosurvive! ❤️

 

Thank you so much for your message!!

I am still taking the Ashwagandha - after a couple of days I dare to say it really helps with lowering my cortisol. My enthusiasm following the first night of using it (I SLEPT for once!!) is somewhat curbed, as I didn't sleep since - but I feel that the morning-cortisol-spike isn't nearly as bad since using it. I am still trying to find out a good dosage though - I was carelessly following the '1-2 teaspoon'-instructions on the packaging, before remembering how much of a difference this might make to my fragile cns. I bought a fine-scale and will stick to a dose (maybe 1g) from today.

Since you also seem to be suffering from that nasty cortisol-spike in the morning (it feels like a napalm bomb going off in my chest I find, setting my inside into a toxic chemical fire. I literally feel the cortisol spreading through my body like poison, and I can't stand it!), I would carefully encourage you to give it a try. I decided to try it after finding several studies regarding its cortisol-lowering properties (eg https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3573577/ ).

I would recommend a high quality organic product that comes in capsules though - the stuff tastes nothing short of VILE! 👹

 

Let's declare lavender our new enemy! I had a bad day after Lavender tea - but this might as well be coincidence.

 

Oh how I know those intrusive, self-loathing thoughts!! They get me especially in the  morning hours - and are so agonizing and hard to fight!! I feel like the worst loser on this planet. Everyone else has made perfect choices for themselves - and now look at me, lying in bed miserable.

 

Thank you so much for your tip regarding sleep meditation - I may try it! Like you, I find it difficult to actively concentrate on things like that, but might profit from listening to it in the background. I listen to 'relaxing tunes' at times, and also find it helps a tiiiiiny bit! ..and tell me about the ad breaks - they are so annoying!

 

The sleep I am getting can't even be measured in hours, rather in minutes. Such as 50 minutes in the early morning (some time after 6am?) and then again 40 minutes after 8am. It's miserable!

 

How about yourself? You seem to be getting a good few hours sleep per night before waking up in the early morning? I hope you'll soon get some more sleep!!❣️

 

 

 

[Manati]

4 hours ago, Jennings said:

I second the Calm App.  There are a lot of sleep therapies on there.

 

I’m also going to suggest DARE by Barry McDonagh.  It’s similar to Claire Weekes.  I think it’s worth a try.

 

Thank you, Jennings, for the tip! I'll definitely check it out.

Also DARE and Claire Weekes - both new to me!

[Manati]

On 1/23/2021 at 3:17 AM, Altostrata said:

Did you move the venlafaxine to the morning?

 

Yes I do take it in the mornings now, Altostrata.

 

Alto, I don't know how to calm my hyperactive locus coeruleus/glutamatergic system that keeps 'shocking' be back from sleep. It's such torture, I'm desperate. I don't see another solution but introducing Lyrica. I've read that you developed a paradox reaction to it - so would you strongly advise against using it? I just don't know what else to help myself!

 

Your opinion on that would make a huge difference to me!

 

Thank you!!!

[Altostrata]

How long have you been taking venlafaxine in the morning?

 

Has your symptom pattern changed since then?

 

When do you get these shocks during sleep?

[HardTimes]

Hi again manati. I'm interested in hearing more about the "shocking you back from sleep" thing. It sounds like we have the same problem. I describe it as just sort of touching the start of "stage 1" sleep (where you see a bunch of weird "hypnogogic" images), but then I kind of bounce back out, as though my body is somehow terrified of actually losing consciousness. SUCH a strange sensation. Now for me it feels a bit different, but is also now accompanied by hot flashes and sometimes even sweat. So I'm curious about your experience, and also where you learned about the "hyperactive locus coeruleus/glutamatergic system " you think is responsible? Maybe you can direct me to something so I can check it out as well? I'm also interested in Alto's response, though I'm loathe to add what looks like a pretty intense drug. 

 

I can also direct you to the advice a moderator has been giving me. He has terrible insomnia problems too, but his approach tends to be to accept it as best he can (which is easier said than done, of course!!!). He points out that having even several sleepless nights in a row won't kill you, and your body will eventually conk out when it must. He also suggests lots of exercise (which, again, isn't all that easy for all of us). So I've tried to be as accepting as possible (I'm now pretty much resigned to five hours a night, max). Other things that have (sort of) worked for me include white noise, playing an audiobook, or dozing in front of the TV. Somehow my brain can't just zoom around chewing itself to bits when there is language for it to listen to, and sometimes I sort of fall "asleep". It isn't exactly sleep, as I often still FEEL my mind being active (like I'm awake), but at the same time I can't recall a single thing about the show (so I must have been asleep?). Very weird, but better than nothing. 

 

Hoping for improvements all around.

[Manati]

7 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How long have you been taking venlafaxine in the morning?

 

Has your symptom pattern changed since then?

 

When do you get these shocks during sleep?

 

It's been 12 days since I take the Venlafaxine it in the morning. I take notes of my symptoms but can't identify a clear change in their pattern. Sleepwise, I tend to have 2-3 nights with 0 - 50 minutes sleep, followed by one with 2-3h sleep.

 

The shocks happen during the first phase of the night (before the cortisol spike), when I'm really tired and about to fall asleep. After the cortisol kicks in, I usually don't get close to sleep for a few hours.

 

I thought the Lyrica might help tame the shock-reaction and allow me a little sleep in the early evening?

 

Thank you for your input!

 

 

 

[Manati]

2 hours ago, HardTimes said:

Hi again manati. I'm interested in hearing more about the "shocking you back from sleep" thing. It sounds like we have the same problem. I describe it as just sort of touching the start of "stage 1" sleep (where you see a bunch of weird "hypnogogic" images), but then I kind of bounce back out, as though my body is somehow terrified of actually losing consciousness. SUCH a strange sensation. Now for me it feels a bit different, but is also now accompanied by hot flashes and sometimes even sweat. So I'm curious about your experience, and also where you learned about the "hyperactive locus coeruleus/glutamatergic system " you think is responsible? Maybe you can direct me to something so I can check it out as well? I'm also interested in Alto's response, though I'm loathe to add what looks like a pretty intense drug. 

 

I can also direct you to the advice a moderator has been giving me. He has terrible insomnia problems too, but his approach tends to be to accept it as best he can (which is easier said than done, of course!!!). He points out that having even several sleepless nights in a row won't kill you, and your body will eventually conk out when it must. He also suggests lots of exercise (which, again, isn't all that easy for all of us). So I've tried to be as accepting as possible (I'm now pretty much resigned to five hours a night, max). Other things that have (sort of) worked for me include white noise, playing an audiobook, or dozing in front of the TV. Somehow my brain can't just zoom around chewing itself to bits when there is language for it to listen to, and sometimes I sort of fall "asleep". It isn't exactly sleep, as I often still FEEL my mind being active (like I'm awake), but at the same time I can't recall a single thing about the show (so I must have been asleep?). Very weird, but better than nothing. 

 

Hoping for improvements all around.

 

Hi there, HardTimes, and thank you for your message!

 

You seem to experience the same thing indeed. It happens during the first phase of the night, just when I'm about to fall asleep. I also perceive it as my body being scared of losing control. I don't have hot flashes or sweat, but it often comes with the feeling of suffocating for me. As if my throat was too tight or blocked. It's a terrifying experience - torture, really.

I found this while browsing the site, and it immediately made sense to me.

Also check out the paper linked in the article. It's pretty depressing/scary though to read how the brain seems to be 'damaged' by withdrawal.

 

Some more info here https://www.patientslikeme.com/members/34434

 

I concluded that updosing my reinstatement or introducing a new SSRI/SNRI would be pointless, I need to try and carefully target the system causing me such terror. Here in the forum, Lamotrigine is discussed as a measure to do that - but a lot of caution/good medical supervision seems to be essential to do that. Finding the right dose seems to be tricky.

 

My doc has prescribed pregabaline/Lyrica - I read it targets the glutamatergic/GABA system, too, and is my only hope at this point.

 

Thank you for your tips regarding falling asleep or accepting that it won't happen. I find it very diffcult to accept, to be honest, especially after the cortisol kicks in (early morning), putting me in a mode of desperation. I know that state you're talking about: your mind being sort of awake, but when checking the clock an hour has passed unnoticed.

 

It's weird how those experiences are so very similar. I also hope for improvement/healing for all of us!

 

 

[Altostrata]

I need to update that PatientsLikeMe profile.

 

You are overthinking "hyperactive locus coeruleus/glutamatergic system" and "cortisol" when you get those jerks upon going to sleep.

 

Your nervous system is sensitized. It wants to keep you awake to watch out for dangers. You can calm it with meditation or soft music while you're sleeping. You can tame this reaction, be patient, it will go away. It's part of withdrawal.

 

 

[Manati]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

I need to update that PatientsLikeMe profile.

 

You are overthinking "hyperactive locus coeruleus/glutamatergic system" and "cortisol" when you get those jerks upon going to sleep.

 

Your nervous system is sensitized. It wants to keep you awake to watch out for dangers. You can calm it with meditation or soft music while you're sleeping. You can tame this reaction, be patient, it will go away. It's part of withdrawal.

 

 

 

Thanks Altostrata, also for the link. Reading about the alarm response of those systems just made so much sense to me and seems to explain the state I'm in.

 

I listen to relaxing tunes on youtube, and tried many of the non-drug coping techniques. Some help me relax, but as soon as I relax I get the alarm reaction...

 

 

 

I listen to relaxing tunes on youtube

[HardTimes]

Hi Manati,

If your signature is right, you've now been taking 8mg of Lyrica for over a week or so. Has your sleep improved at all? Did it make you dozy during the day, or change your symptoms in any other ways?

 

If you're like me you might have a bit of mental resistance to non-drug treatments. The symptoms seem so severe, how can a little cello music sort this out? What I need is a DRUG! Even though drugs got us into this mess, we still see them as a strong solution! I get that! But I also wanted to quickly share that, skeptic though I am, I tried out some meditation techniques five days ago, and for the last four nights in a row I've been sleeping a bit better. I still wake up hot and freaky after 4-5 hours. But then instead of reading or anything else, I sit up and do the meditation practice, and then eventually (however long it takes) I lie down and continue, and I'm back asleep! The sleep that results is light and REM filled, and easily broken, but much better than nothing. I'm shocked by how well it has worked, and four nights running suggests it isn't just coincidence! Try the Netflix "headspace guide to meditation" or any number of other things out there!

 

Really hope you are doing a bit better!

[Manati]

On 2/1/2021 at 11:42 AM, HardTimes said:

Hi Manati,

If your signature is right, you've now been taking 8mg of Lyrica for over a week or so. Has your sleep improved at all? Did it make you dozy during the day, or change your symptoms in any other ways?

 

If you're like me you might have a bit of mental resistance to non-drug treatments. The symptoms seem so severe, how can a little cello music sort this out? What I need is a DRUG! Even though drugs got us into this mess, we still see them as a strong solution! I get that! But I also wanted to quickly share that, skeptic though I am, I tried out some meditation techniques five days ago, and for the last four nights in a row I've been sleeping a bit better. I still wake up hot and freaky after 4-5 hours. But then instead of reading or anything else, I sit up and do the meditation practice, and then eventually (however long it takes) I lie down and continue, and I'm back asleep! The sleep that results is light and REM filled, and easily broken, but much better than nothing. I'm shocked by how well it has worked, and four nights running suggests it isn't just coincidence! Try the Netflix "headspace guide to meditation" or any number of other things out there!

 

Really hope you are doing a bit better!

 

Hi HardTimes,

Thank you for your message, and please excuse my late response.

You are right - I have introduced the Lyrica in late January. So far, I still cannot judge wether it was worth it or not. Maybe that's due to the small amout (around 4mg) I was starting with. I am currently at around 8mg (with 25mg being the smallest officially 'therapeutic dose'). One good thing to mention is that it eased my agitation/akathisia - I'm now able to sit still. Also, it seems to help a little with the insomnia. I do get 2-3h sleep a night now, even though it's light/poor quality REM-sleep. However, it didn't really help with the jerks that keep me from sleeping - even though they have changed in character: I'm not being 'shocked awake' when falling asleep anymore, but rather stopped from sleeping by a physical feeling of panic that has less of a shock character, or woken in a panic after falling asleep. Difficult to explain and still awful! I might slooowly keep updosing in the attempt to calm that hyperactive system.

The dose I'm taking doesn't make me overly dozy, but you need to consider that I'd otherwise be overly agitated. So I don't know what effect it would have on you?

It seems to numb my headaches, and generally makes me feel 'uncomfortably numb'. Better than pain or akathisia, but still not a good feeling.

Also, I'm feeling pretty irritable, and have developed an uncontrollable appetite since taking it! I could eat nonstop and can't feel when I'm full! Not cool. For now it's ok, because I've lost so much weight over this ordeal and am nearly underweight. But the fact I can't tell when I'm full freaks me out.

You see, I'm getting mixed results so far, but am prepared to stick with it for the sake of a bit more sleep and the hope to calm that glutamatergic system. Wish me luck - I'm still in a very bad state.

 

Thank you for the meditation tip! I seem to be sabotaging myself whenever I try those things, as if a voice in my head is saying that there is no point, preventing me from focusing. But I might give it another try. I'm glad to hear that it is helping you and hope you are generally doing a bit better?

 

 

[Manati]

On 1/26/2021 at 11:01 PM, Altostrata said:

I need to update that PatientsLikeMe profile.

 

You are overthinking "hyperactive locus coeruleus/glutamatergic system" and "cortisol" when you get those jerks upon going to sleep.

 

Your nervous system is sensitized. It wants to keep you awake to watch out for dangers. You can calm it with meditation or soft music while you're sleeping. You can tame this reaction, be patient, it will go away. It's part of withdrawal.

 

 

 

@Alto,

I have reinstated Effexor 3 months after 0 and have been on 3 beads for six weeks now. I'm still in a really bad state of pain and distress. Developing more symptoms and unable to work or do anything really. I'm wondering if symptoms can possibly still improve on such a small dose, or if I should try and updose to 5mg?

 

I've searched the forum and results were mixed, late reinstatements (even of much higher doses) seem to be working for some?

 

May I ask for your opinion/general experience? In my place, would you wait longer for the 3 beads to ease the symptoms, or try and updose? Would a higher dose help symptoms quicker, if I can tolerate it?

I have tried to updose to 4 beads at the time and felt extremely agitated - but wasn't sure how to interprete that: Was it a typical adeverse reaction? Or a normal reaction that would fade after a while?

 

Thank you so much for your opinion. I feel I really can't go on like this.

 

 

 

[HardTimes]

Thanks for the helpful reply. I think we're both into the theory proposed by Alto as described on her patients like me page and elsewhere, and so want to target the disregulated systems. There is a bit of a paradox involved: We can agree that "chemical imbalance" theory is BS, except that now in withdrawal that actually does seem to be an accurate description! Our system is trying to achieve homeostasis w/o the serotonin component, so now we actually kind of DO have a "chemical imbalance" of sorts! 

 

My doctor (here in France) said she doesn't prescribe Lyrica for anxiety-related issues anymore. But a psychiatrist I just saw (my first!) did float the idea of Lamictral as a "mood stabilizer", which is the other one mentioned in Alto's post. Not sure I'm going to try it, but stay tuned!

 

I think and hope you're going to lick this thing quicker than most. You've reinstated early and are tackling it all very aggressively and educating yourself to a high degree, all of which is not only impressive but also a recipe for success. The sleep thing IS awful, and I didn't mean to be flippant by suggesting acceptance, because I know it is harder than that! For me it sort of depends on the kind of waking: For a while I'd just wake up too early but felt not that bad, and felt a panic because I thought I ought to be sleeping. In that case, I managed to just relax a bit and realized it wasn't going to kill me. Now, however, whatever adrenalin/cortisol hyperactive reaction that is going on just gets me into a really crappy, kind of terrified, jittery state all morning, so it is much harder to just accept. And the meditation I was kind of boasting about has proved to be not as powerful as I had hoped! 😕 Still, I think it is better than some of the other alternatives. I think there IS a point to it that might pay off after several weeks of practice. Don't just lie there - sit up, or even go into another room and just give it 30 minutes. I freaked out this morning - I started "meditating" at about 4, and the next time I saw the clock it was 5:30 - so I must have been asleep for some of that??? All very weird. 

 

I'm glad you're getting at least a few now. I'm getting 5 pretty consistently, plus however much weird dozing. It really will improve with time, and again I think it will happen for you quicker than most! 

 

PS: If you want to "tag" somebody so they see you've tagged them, use the "@" symbol. (I just noticed you wrote to Alto, but she might not see it...?)

[Manati]

Hi HardTimes,

 

thank you for your kind and thoughtful response. And also for mentioning how to tag people, that's very useful indeed!

Yes, we are sitting in the same boat regarding our misbehaving glutamatergic systems. I read everything I could find about Lamotrigin - the theory of trying to carefully calm the system makes sense to me. It might happen automatically over time, once the serotonergic (and whatever..) system has recovered? But how long is that going to take? When I read that the activated system is basically keeping itself in 'hyper-mode', I was sold to the idea of trying to interrupt the circle. The degree of suffering involved is just too much for me.

My doctor would only prescribe Pregabalin/Lyrica, not Lamotrigin. I found out that it also targets glutamatergic release. Together with the potential to help with sleep, I've decided to give it a try - in the smallest possible working dose. I also found a paper by Chouinard who is proposing anticonvulsiva for symptom reduction (I'll attach it). As mentioned above, I'm only taking 8mg, and don't notice a huge change as of yet. But even if I get to the point of noticing a positive effect, I'm only planning to take it as long as necessary. I know I know, that's how we all ended up here..

 

Thank you so much for your encouragement and believe in me! I hope, you are right, and I'll find a way to navigate this horror trip. I'm fairly pessimistic though - so far I haven't come across m(any) success stories of cold turkeying Venlafaxine. It's plain desperation keeping me active.

Also, I have no idea whether this entire 'reinstatement-thing' is working out for me - I feel it helped with my anxiety, but worsened my agitation/insomnia. I have no idea if the agitation accounts for a typical 'adverse reaction'? And if so, will it fade or does it mean I should stop the reinstatement? Are the 3 beads really doing anything? Are they helping or hindering the healing process of the CNS? Will my brain eventually adapt to that microdose? And won't it be incredibly difficult to taper off 3 beads one day? If I could tolerate a higher dose, would that ease my symptoms quicker? Or would it only mess with the stability established over the past 6 weeks? I'm sure you have a similar battery of questions regarding your situation. Everything is unpredictable, all measures we try to take seem to be harmful, but enduring the situation is impossible. And then there's the total lack of data or medical support.

 

No worries - I never interpreted your advice as flippant. I just wish I could be better at accepting..

Oh, tell me about that crappy, terrifiend, jittery state - it lasts half of the day for me. Have you tried Ashwagandha? It is one of the few things that have helped me. It really lowered my cortisol spike.

 

I am also familiar with those 'in-between' states that seem to influence time perception. Maybe it is some sort of light sleep? It's all just one bizarre experience - after cold turkeying I feel like Alice having fallen down into some horror-Wonderland (where we all meet) with its very own rules.

 

I hope you'll get some quality sleep tonight!

 

 

 

Gabapentin.Lamotrigin.S.6-7.Chouinard2008.pdf

[Altostrata]

Manati, how is taking the Lyrica affecting you? You've only taken it about 2 weeks, correct? Does your sleep consistently hover around 3 hours per night?

 

When did you start 3 beads of Effexor, what was the effect? What time of day do you take it?

 

Playing very soft music throughout the nighttime may be soothing. I found that watching droning TV programs, such as nature documentaries or historical dramas, helped me nap, as long as they didn't contain any loud noises.

 

 

[Manati]

@Altostrata @brassmonkey@manymoretodays

 

Please, can I ask you for your advice in my current situation?

 

I have reinstated Effexor 3 months after cold turkeying and have been on 3 beads (1mg) for about 5 weeks now (apart from a 3-day - attempt to updose to 4 beads, 3 weeks ago). My symptoms aren't improving and I'm starting to lose hope. I keep wondering if I made the right choice by reinstating. On one side, it seemed to help with my anxiety and extreme panic. On the other side, it increased my agitation and possibly insomnia. My attempt to updose to 4 beads also failed due to feeling extremely agitated as a consequence.

 

I remember feeling agitated when I first started the Effexor 15 years ago, so I figured this might fade over time and my body would get used to it, like it did back then. However, 5 weeks after reinstating, I'm still feeling extremely agitated and restless, have intense cortisol spikes and akathasia in the early mornings, and severe headaches/tinnitus.

 

I realise many of those symptoms might simply be from withdrawal, but I keep wondering if the reinstatement made it worse due to the stimulating nature of the drug?

Do you think that is possible?

Should I try and taper off of it already?

Or will my system eventually stabilize on a dose as small as 1mg, despite its side effects?

 

Could the small fluctuations in dose (as a result of the beads' varying size) be a problem?

Should I take a different approach and updose despite the side effects, to provide higher receptor coverage? I've searched the forum and results were mixed, late reinstatements (even of higher doses) seem to be working for some?

 

I started taking Lyrica/Pregabalin on a small dose (4mg) on 23rd January to help with the headache-pain and insomnia overnight. I have meanwhile updosed to 8mg (which I take in the evening) and it started to show effect - I could get a little sleep (2 - 3h) and the pain improved. However, this week I had a few really bad nights again with headaches, agitation and insomnia being as bad as ever. I'm not sure now if those could be paradox reactions to the Lyrica, or if I should updose a little more in order to counteract those symptoms? Are there any characteristic signs of Lyrica showing a paradox effect? Does the risk increase with dose?

 

I'm pretty clueless at this point, and don't know how to interprete my body's reactions. I realise I didn't 'keep it stable/ simple' by introducing Lyrica, but the symptoms were just so extreme.

 

Thank you so much for any help and input!

 

[HardTimes]

Hi Manati - I really wish I could give you good advice, and I hope one of the moderators you mentioned are able to do so. Likely you don't need to hear from me at all, but I just wanted to say how much I relate to the agony of not knowing whether to take more, just try to hold on, or whether the reinstatement is just a failure. I could only decide by trying to objectively quantify my symptom journal, and determined that statistically I was actually worse off during the reinstatement and after each tiny upward dosage. But it is so unbelievably subjective and there is no concrete baseline, so it is really difficult to know if the "3" you wrote down a week ago is the same as the "3" you're noting today! But it is the best we have to work with - take lots of notes, assign some numbers, and if they start changing in one direction or another that might help inform your decision. It also doesn't help that some of the reactions apparently don't take place until several days later when they're in your bloodstream.  I still have no idea if I made the right decision!

 

My only thought about dosage (again, the experts are better placed to advise) - I've never done beads, so I have no idea how beads compare to grams. It just strikes me, If you went CT at 33mg, 3 or 4 beads sounds really low? As you know, the idea is to start low and go (SLOWLY) up til you find the lowest effective dose, which it doesn't sound like you've found. I noted on the excel chart of reinstatements that many people reinstated at higher doses than I tried (I attach it again, though I think you've seen it). But maybe they built up to that level?

 

But of course if you said that you tried to go up and you immediately felt much worse, that's not something you should likely endure in hopes that it resolves itself. I did that for a while, thinking that I just wasn't taking enough and would eventually stabilize. As my moderator/mentor wisely pointed out, the logic of "This made me feel bad, I must not be taking enough" is problematic at best! So if you are sure going up was bad, that might help your decision. Again, I hope one of the moderators can advise you more helpfully. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a "magic wand" solution here - stabilization doesn't mean perfect happiness, just a reduction of swings. 

 

REALLY hope you get some relief soon! I'm rooting for you!

SADrugReinstatement.xlsx

[manymoretodays]

Hi Manati,

And I am just looking through your last post, in comparison with your signature, and changes there.

copied signature here:

26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg), magnesium (800mg) and ashwagandha for the cortisol spike.

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd & 4th  January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

since 19th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, introduced Ashwaghanda supplement. Also still using fish oil and magnesium.

Since 23. January: introduced Lyrica to help with sleep/jerks keeping me awake: updosed from 4mg to meanwhile 8mg.

 

And the one thing that stands out is, some of the additions, and introductions of new stuff, while trying to get a feel for what the reinstatement of Venlafaxine is doing.  It does make it difficult.  To really know exactly what might be doing what.

And I know, you want relief, and it is terribly difficult right now.......but might you be willing to do a set of NOTES, again?  And then try to post the whole 24 hours at once, and continue for 3 days.

 

What we need to see for every single day over several days is what symptoms you get before and after you take your drugs. If you're not taking any drugs and have withdrawal symptoms, we still need to see your symptom pattern throughout the day:

 

The time of day, dosage, and severity of symptoms are essential information. Include

 

- Time and dosage for all drugs taken throughout the day, psychiatric and non-psychiatric.

- Following each dose, note any symptoms. If you are having a reaction to the drug, it may take hours for a symptom to show up -- that's why we ask you to keep notes all day long.

- If you're not taking any drugs, your symptoms throughout the day.

- Your sleep pattern. Since so many drugs disturb sleep, if you find you're waking in the middle of the night, it could be from a drug you took earlier in the evening. If you're not taking any drugs, there may be ways you can improve your sleep.

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, looking something like this:
 

Example:

DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

5 hours ago, Manati said:

I realise many of those symptoms might simply be from withdrawal, but I keep wondering if the reinstatement made it worse due to the stimulating nature of the drug?

Do you think that is possible?

Should I try and taper off of it already?

Or will my system eventually stabilize on a dose as small as 1mg, despite its side effects?

 

Could the small fluctuations in dose (as a result of the beads' varying size) be a problem?

Should I take a different approach and updose despite the side effects, to provide higher receptor coverage? I've searched the forum and results were mixed, late reinstatements (even of higher doses) seem to be working for some?

 

I started taking Lyrica/Pregabalin on a small dose (4mg) on 23rd January to help with the headache-pain and insomnia overnight. I have meanwhile updosed to 8mg (which I take in the evening) and it started to show effect - I could get a little sleep (2 - 3h) and the pain improved. However, this week I had a few really bad nights again with headaches, agitation and insomnia being as bad as ever. I'm not sure now if those could be paradox reactions to the Lyrica, or if I should updose a little more in order to counteract those symptoms? Are there any characteristic signs of Lyrica showing a paradox effect? Does the risk increase with dose?

 

It's sad.  Because I have seen some good results from Effexor reinstatements.  I'm not sure though on the time frame, with those, meaning how long after the discontinuation.......until reinstatement.

Me, I'd HOLD, do your best to HOLD, while doing NOTES, and then posting.  Meantime, you could google, or go to Drugs.com, to start, and see if any have had paradoxical reactions to Lyrica singularly.  Yes, for sure, any adverse reaction, or side effect risk to any drug, is increased with increased dosage.

 

You'll find more in topic, on beads varying size, and how members deal with that.

Tips for tapering Effexor and.....

if not ^, you might want to look at some of the other members, who are tapering using the bead method, and see how they have dealt with that issue and found a comfort with it.  I'm dubious that the bead varying size is the main issue right now.  I'm more just plain confused, as to all the changes and additions, since your reinstatement.......as to what might be doing what......as far as helping, or not helping, etc.  So really can't directly answer many of your questions right now.

 

I wish I could, oh I wish it was so simple.

 

And breathe.......keep going with the non-drug coping too.  Nice to include briefly, what helps, and when, with your non-drug coping in the NOTES.  And don't forget to include everything, supplements included.

 

Less is so very often more, as far as really treating acute WD.  For many reasons.

The 3 KIS

 

Thanks Maniti, and best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

Edited February 12, 2021 by manymoretodays
link and additional

[Manati]

57 minutes ago, HardTimes said:

Hi Manati - I really wish I could give you good advice, and I hope one of the moderators you mentioned are able to do so. Likely you don't need to hear from me at all, but I just wanted to say how much I relate to the agony of not knowing whether to take more, just try to hold on, or whether the reinstatement is just a failure. I could only decide by trying to objectively quantify my symptom journal, and determined that statistically I was actually worse off during the reinstatement and after each tiny upward dosage. But it is so unbelievably subjective and there is no concrete baseline, so it is really difficult to know if the "3" you wrote down a week ago is the same as the "3" you're noting today! But it is the best we have to work with - take lots of notes, assign some numbers, and if they start changing in one direction or another that might help inform your decision. It also doesn't help that some of the reactions apparently don't take place until several days later when they're in your bloodstream.  I still have no idea if I made the right decision!

 

My only thought about dosage (again, the experts are better placed to advise) - I've never done beads, so I have no idea how beads compare to grams. It just strikes me, If you went CT at 33mg, 3 or 4 beads sounds really low? As you know, the idea is to start low and go (SLOWLY) up til you find the lowest effective dose, which it doesn't sound like you've found. I noted on the excel chart of reinstatements that many people reinstated at higher doses than I tried (I attach it again, though I think you've seen it). But maybe they built up to that level?

 

But of course if you said that you tried to go up and you immediately felt much worse, that's not something you should likely endure in hopes that it resolves itself. I did that for a while, thinking that I just wasn't taking enough and would eventually stabilize. As my moderator/mentor wisely pointed out, the logic of "This made me feel bad, I must not be taking enough" is problematic at best! So if you are sure going up was bad, that might help your decision. Again, I hope one of the moderators can advise you more helpfully. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a "magic wand" solution here - stabilization doesn't mean perfect happiness, just a reduction of swings. 

 

REALLY hope you get some relief soon! I'm rooting for you!

SADrugReinstatement.xlsx 13.27 kB · 0 downloads

 

Hi HardTimes,

 

thank you for your message - and hey you do give me good advice!

And thank you for relating, it is like you say - impossible to establish a neutral baseline and measure/compare the degree of suffering objectively. So frustrating. I do keep daily notes, I have an excel sheet to 'rate' my daily symptoms, and a journal for detailed descriptions of the days/nights. And still I'm confused!

 

I know - 3 beads appear incredibly low! I just cannot imagine to ever stabilise on such a low dose. I've searched the forum and it seems to be possible in theory. My original plan was to slowly increase the dose, it just didn't work out. Now I feel sort of stuck on a low, but possibly ineffective dose that does nothing but cause agitation and insomnia.

 

Also, I still don't get the concept of 'stabilising', if it doesn't equal being symptom-free? How do I notice if I'm 'stable' then?

 

So many questions... THANK YOU so much for helping me find answers!

 

I hope you are doing a little better yourself? I'm sending you some healing thoughts!!

 

 

 

 

[Manati]

On 2/12/2021 at 8:01 PM, manymoretodays said:

Hi Manati,

And I am just looking through your last post, in comparison with your signature, and changes there.

copied signature here:

26th of September. I am in week 13 without the drug now. I've tried CBD oil and htp5 for a while, currently taking Omega 3 (1400mg), magnesium (800mg) and ashwagandha for the cortisol spike.

25th December: Reinstated Venlafaxine with one bead (0.3/0.4mg) in the evening, proceeding with two beads (0.7/0.8mg) per day around noon. Started taking the magensium on the same day, so not sure if this might have a masking effect.

01th January: Updosed to 3beads (around 1mg) of Venlafaxine, so far no adverse reaction

2nd January: Back to 2beads of Venlafaxine, also 1/4 Diazepam, 12mg Lyrica.

3rd & 4th  January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, 12mg Lyrica

since 5th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine daily and nothing else except fish oil and magnesium. No changes in daily routine

15th January - 17th January: 4 beads of Venlafaxine

since 18th Januray: back to 3 beads of Venlafaxine

since 19th January: 3 beads of Venlafaxine, introduced Ashwaghanda supplement. Also still using fish oil and magnesium.

Since 23. January: introduced Lyrica to help with sleep/jerks keeping me awake: updosed from 4mg to meanwhile 8mg.

 

And the one thing that stands out is, some of the additions, and introductions of new stuff, while trying to get a feel for what the reinstatement of Venlafaxine is doing.  It does make it difficult.  To really know exactly what might be doing what.

And I know, you want relief, and it is terribly difficult right now.......but might you be willing to do a set of NOTES, again?  And then try to post the whole 24 hours at once, and continue for 3 days.

 

What we need to see for every single day over several days is what symptoms you get before and after you take your drugs. If you're not taking any drugs and have withdrawal symptoms, we still need to see your symptom pattern throughout the day:

 

The time of day, dosage, and severity of symptoms are essential information. Include

 

- Time and dosage for all drugs taken throughout the day, psychiatric and non-psychiatric.

- Following each dose, note any symptoms. If you are having a reaction to the drug, it may take hours for a symptom to show up -- that's why we ask you to keep notes all day long.

- If you're not taking any drugs, your symptoms throughout the day.

- Your sleep pattern. Since so many drugs disturb sleep, if you find you're waking in the middle of the night, it could be from a drug you took earlier in the evening. If you're not taking any drugs, there may be ways you can improve your sleep.

And so forth. A diary, in chronological order, looking something like this:
 

Example:

DATE:

 

6 a.m. Woke with anxiety
8 a.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
10 a.m. Stomach is upset
10:30 a.m. Ate breakfast
11:35 a.m. Got a headache, lasted one hour
12:35 p.m. Ate lunch
4 p.m. Feel a bit better
5 p.m. Took 2.5mg Lexapro
6 p.m. Ate dinner
9:20 p.m. Headache
10:00 p.m. Took 50mg Seroquel
10:20 p.m. Feeling dizzy
10:30 p.m. Fell asleep
2:30 a.m. Woke, took 3mg Ambien (NOT "took 1/2 tablet Ambien")
2:45 a.m. Fell asleep
4:30 a.m. Woke but got back to sleep

 

 

It's sad.  Because I have seen some good results from Effexor reinstatements.  I'm not sure though on the time frame, with those, meaning how long after the discontinuation.......until reinstatement.

Me, I'd HOLD, do your best to HOLD, while doing NOTES, and then posting.  Meantime, you could google, or go to Drugs.com, to start, and see if any have had paradoxical reactions to Lyrica singularly.  Yes, for sure, any adverse reaction, or side effect risk to any drug, is increased with increased dosage.

 

You'll find more in topic, on beads varying size, and how members deal with that.

Tips for tapering Effexor and.....

if not ^, you might want to look at some of the other members, who are tapering using the bead method, and see how they have dealt with that issue and found a comfort with it.  I'm dubious that the bead varying size is the main issue right now.  I'm more just plain confused, as to all the changes and additions, since your reinstatement.......as to what might be doing what......as far as helping, or not helping, etc.  So really can't directly answer many of your questions right now.

 

I wish I could, oh I wish it was so simple.

 

And breathe.......keep going with the non-drug coping too.  Nice to include briefly, what helps, and when, with your non-drug coping in the NOTES.  And don't forget to include everything, supplements included.

 

Less is so very often more, as far as really treating acute WD.  For many reasons.

The 3 KIS

 

Thanks Maniti, and best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

Thank you so much for your response, Manymoretodays, and for trying to find answers regarding my complicated situation!

I know - the fact I have been trying to updose, and adding the Lyrica, doesn't make things easier.

I will follow your advice and hold on to the 3 beads and keep notes.

 

Do you think my brain will eventually stabilize on those 3 beads I'm taking?

I'm feeling fairly discouraged because of my unfavorable circumstances - quitting Effexor cold turkey after 15 years. Will I ever heal, I wonder?

Thank You!

 

[Altostrata]

On 2/12/2021 at 6:00 AM, Manati said:

I started taking Lyrica/Pregabalin on a small dose (4mg) on 23rd January to help with the headache-pain and insomnia overnight. I have meanwhile updosed to 8mg (which I take in the evening) and it started to show effect - I could get a little sleep (2 - 3h) and the pain improved. However, this week I had a few really bad nights again with headaches, agitation and insomnia being as bad as ever. I'm not sure now if those could be paradox reactions to the Lyrica, or if I should updose a little more in order to counteract those symptoms? Are there any characteristic signs of Lyrica showing a paradox effect? Does the risk increase with dose?

 

A paradoxical reaction will consistently occur shortly after you take the drug. You will need to observe whether this is happening from the Lyrica dose.

 

If it is happening, you might reduce the Lyrica dosage slightly to retain the sleep benefit.

 

However, you might just be having waves of symptoms that may settle down over time, and with the Lyrics crutch enabling you to sleep a little, your sleep might improve.

 

How does taking 4 beads of Effexor cause you anxiety?

[Manati]

10 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

A paradoxical reaction will consistently occur shortly after you take the drug. You will need to observe whether this is happening from the Lyrica dose.

 

If it is happening, you might reduce the Lyrica dosage slightly to retain the sleep benefit.

 

However, you might just be having waves of symptoms that may settle down over time, and with the Lyrics crutch enabling you to sleep a little, your sleep might improve.

 

How does taking 4 beads of Effexor cause you anxiety?

 

Thank you for your help, @Altostrata. I take the Lyrica at 7.30pm every evening. When I started taking it, my headaches increased, but this has subsided (or the Lyrica is numbing them?).

 

I usually go to bed late, around 11pm-12pm, and can often sleep a few hours now, interrupted by the morning cortisol spike. Sometimes I use some Melatonin spray now, too.

However, sometimes I still have really bad nights, being woken by my body panicking, and severe akathisia in the morning hours.

By the way you describe paradoxical reactions, this doesn't sound like one, but rather like a wave pattern of symptoms - as they don't occur predictably/consistently.

So if it is not a paradoxical reaction, I wonder if updosing the Lyrica might help with the bad nights?

I would rather downdose though, as I find it difficult to deal with the side effects of the drug: My entire body feels numb, my eating behaviour has changed, I can't tell when I am full anymore. But worse is that my emotions are completely numbed - I feel like a zombie! 

 

The 4 beads of Effexor didn't increase my anxiety - but seemed to make me extremely agitated 3 days after updosing. Would a higher dosage help calm my symptoms faster, if I could tolerate it?

Would it be worth trying again, or should I leave my CNS alone and stick with the 3 beads?

 

Do you think my CNS will stabilise on 3 beads of Effexor eventually, despite its possible side effects (mainly agitation)? Or can the side effects prevent stabilisation, and a slow taper of the 3 beads would be advised?

I find it diffcult to judge, as on the one hand, the reinstatement definitely helped with my anxiety, on the other hand it increased my agitation.

 

I also wonder if the Lyrica might affect the healing process in any way?

 

Sorry for the many questions, I obviously tend to overthink...

 

Many thanks for your opinion!

 

 

[Manati]

Over the past few weeks I also get a feverish feeling in my head about once a day, with a really warm forehead and blushing cheeks. My head is literally 'glowing' for a couple of hours, before it subsides. I've used the search function and this doesn't seem to be a common symptom? I'm wondering if I should worry? What is happening there in my head??

Does or did anyone have this symptom, too?

[Manati]

@Gridley please excuse me tagging you out of the blue, and bother you with my questions. I saw you gave others a lot of advice regarding reinstatements, and wondered if you could have a look at my situation??

 

I have reinstated Effexor 3 months after cold turkeying and have been on 3 beads (1mg) for about 6 weeks now (apart from a 3-day - attempt to updose to 4 beads, 4 weeks ago). My symptoms aren't improving and I'm starting to lose hope. I keep wondering if I made the right choice by reinstating. On one side, it seemed to help with my anxiety and extreme panic. On the other side, it increased my agitation (and possibly insomnia). My attempt to updose to 4 beads also failed due to feeling extremely agitated as a consequence.

 

I remember feeling agitated when I first started the Effexor 15 years ago, so I figured this might fade over time and my body would get used to it, like it did back then. However, 6 weeks after reinstating, I'm still feeling agitated and restless, have intense cortisol spikes and akathasia in the early mornings, and constant headache/tinnitus.

 

I realise many of those symptoms might simply be from withdrawal, but I keep wondering if the reinstatement made it worse due to the stimulating nature of the drug?

Do you think that is possible?

Can the side effects prevent stabilisation, and a slow taper of the 3 beads would be advised?

 

Or will my system eventually stabilize on a dose as small as 1mg, despite its side effects?

 

Should I take a different approach and try again to updose despite the side effects, to provide higher receptor coverage? I've searched the forum and results were mixed, late reinstatements (even of higher doses) seem to be working for some? Would my body get used to the side effects/agitation eventually?

Would it be worth trying again, or should I leave my CNS alone and stick with the tiny dose of 1mg?

 

I find it diffcult to judge, as on the one hand, the reinstatement definitely helped with my anxiety, on the other hand it increased my agitation.

 

I am also taking a small dose (8mg) of Lyrica to help with the pain and sleep - do you think that might interefere with the healing process, or will my brain heal regardless?

 

I'm so undecided on what to do, and increasingly desperate. I would really apreciate your opinion!!

 

Thank you!!

 

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, Manati said:

I realise many of those symptoms might simply be from withdrawal, but I keep wondering if the reinstatement made it worse due to the stimulating nature of the drug?

Do you think that is possible?

It's impossible to say for sure, but yes, it is possible.

 

1 hour ago, Manati said:

However, 6 weeks after reinstating, I'm still feeling agitated and restless, have intense cortisol spikes and akathasia in the early mornings, and constant headache/tinnitus.

 

I know it's difficult to pinpoint, but generally are you worse or better post-reinstatement?  

 

1 hour ago, Manati said:

Would it be worth trying again, or should I leave my CNS alone and stick with the tiny dose of 1mg?

 

I wouldn't go any higher than 1mg.

 

1 hour ago, Manati said:

- do you think that might interefere with the healing process, or will my brain heal regardless?

We don't recommend taking a new drug to help with symptoms from old drugs.  How long have you been on the Lyrica? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Manati]

30 minutes ago, Gridley said:

It's impossible to say for sure, but yes, it is possible.

 

I know it's difficult to pinpoint, but generally are you worse or better post-reinstatement?  

 

Thank you so much for you response, Gridley!!

 

I'd say I'm psychologically better since the reinstatement, physically a bit more agitated.

 

30 minutes ago, Gridley said:

 

I wouldn't go any higher than 1mg.

 

So you think my brain can stabilize on a dose as small as 1mg?

 

30 minutes ago, Gridley said:

 

We don't recommend taking a new drug to help with symptoms from old drugs.  How long have you been on the Lyrica? 

 

I introduced it about 4 weeks ago, on a microdose (only taking 8mg). I was just desperate after being sleepless for nights in a row. Do you think I should taper it already, despite its benefits (a few hours sleep)!

 

Thank you for your opinion!!

30 minutes ago, Gridley said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gridley]

19 minutes ago, Manati said:

So you think my brain can stabilize on a dose as small as 1mg?

Definitely.  We always recommend a tiny reinstatement to avoid overwhelming an already destabilized system.

 

20 minutes ago, Manati said:

Do you think I should taper it already, despite its benefits (a few hours sleep)!

That has to be your decision.  We're a site for going off drugs.  Adding more drugs is between you and your doctor.   At 4 weeks you're right on the cusp of being at risk of withdrawal symptoms.  

[Manati]

1 hour ago, Gridley said:

Definitely.  We always recommend a tiny reinstatement to avoid overwhelming an already destabilized system.

 

Thank you so much for your input, Gridley! It is so hard to imagine that my system can possibly stabilize on such a tiny dose! I will stay on those 3 beads then.

1 hour ago, Gridley said:

 

That has to be your decision.  We're a site for going off drugs.  Adding more drugs is between you and your doctor.   At 4 weeks you're right on the cusp of being at risk of withdrawal symptoms.  

 

Does that mean that by now, I might still be able to come off it without tapering?

[Gridley]

24 minutes ago, Manati said:

 

Does that mean that by now, I might still be able to come off it without tapering?

Possibly but I can't say for sure.  If you decide to go off, you could drop by 2mg a week for 4 weeks.  If after 4 days after the first drop your symptoms worsen, stop the taper, hold until you stabilize, and then you'd need to do the 10% every 4 week taper.

[Manati]

49 minutes ago, Gridley said:

Possibly but I can't say for sure.  If you decide to go off, you could drop by 2mg a week for 4 weeks.  If after 4 days after the first drop your symptoms worsen, stop the taper, hold until you stabilize, and then you'd need to do the 10% every 4 week taper.

 

Thank you very much for your help and advice, Gridley!!