Neon: Venlafaxine withdrawal

[Neon]

After I reduced from 75mg Venla to 50mg within a week the aka became unbearable but still is now after updosing.

I think it helped initially bit my jumping around messed it up and now I ruined my life.

And I cant possibly exist without benzos right now.

[Neon]

Is it possible I am kindling my system with the benzos? they dont seem to work for the aka anymore even at higher doses

[Neon]

@AltostrataI developed fever three days after starting 75mg, can that be a reaction due to kindling? should I reduce again? it always develops during peak times. And to what dosage should I lower?

[Altostrata]

When you take a benzo regularly, you can become physiologically dependent on it and get interdose withdrawal or rebound symptoms between doses.

 

We almost never recommend increasing the benzo in these situations; rather, we recommend spacing smaller doses at regular intervals so you don't get withdrawal symptoms in between, then methodically REDUCING the doses so you are taking a minimal amount of the drug.

 

To guide you in this, we need specific information from you, such as daily notes. 

 

Nowhere in the 6 pages of this thread did we recommend increasing the venlafaxine, yet you have done it several times, had a bad result, and reduced it again.

 

As this is a site for going off drugs, we view increasing the drug burden as going in the wrong direction. To go off your drugs, you will need to be in control of them. Your history is one of impulsive changes. That is not being in control.

 

We cannot counsel you on getting comfortable on your current drug cocktail, that is your doctor's job.

 

We cannot continue to answer your pleas to rescue you from your impulsive drug changes. You do not appear to be ready to go off your drugs. Please let us know when you are willing and able to taper off in a responsible fashion.

[Neon]

Okay thank you @Altostrata, I will do that and hope to get to that place one day. Sorry for wasting you time.

It is not an excuse as many people on here manage to do that and I simply dont and I could kill myself for it but the aka is so strong I cant think straight when I have it.
 

Thank you for the info on the benzos.

[Altostrata]

Only you can stop changing your drugs, nobody else can do it for you.

 

Many people come here in a bad place with symptoms, yet maybe after a few mistakes adding drugs, they stop changing their drugs.

 

We cannot keep up with continual drug changes because the way you take your drugs and your frequent changes may be causing your symptoms. You are making your own problems. Only you can stop doing this.

 

 

[Neon]

Hello everyone, I just wanted to update that I have somewhat stabilized on my current cocktail of 3 drugs. 

I dont feel "normal" but the mental akathisia is mostly in control since I updosed the Venlafaxine and that is a real relief and I am sleeping thanks to the benzo.

I have been taking the benzo now for more than two weeks so I assume I cannot simply stop it. I have been taking 0.25mg in the morning (10am) and 0.25mg in the evening (7pm). I have taken it like this for 10 days and I havent felt the withdrawal symptoms quite as strong.

 

My questions are now, after three-four weeks of continuous use, should I keep taking it even though the akathisia is better? I am terrified of benzo withdrawal and tolerance withdrawal so I have tried yesterday without the Lorazepam and it went okay apart of the fact that I could not sleep in the evening and took 0.25mg in the evening. Is stopping it now a dangerous road to go and should I just keep taking it or is it possible I am not yet dependent. If I should keep taking it, is the spacing okay? It worked for me for the last 10 days.

 

Maybe someone has some insight, that would be much appreciated. If it is helpful I can start sending daily updates again.

[Neon]

@rupa sry for the late reply, I would love to come and have South Indian food cure me but I think for now I would be a very troublesome guest 🙃

[Neon]

@Altostrata I hope it is okay that I tag you again. I have managed not to change anything in my drug cocktail for 10 days so I hope this means I am on a good road.

 

One more thing, I read it is preferable to take Diazepam instead of Ativan because less fluctuations in the blood. When I tried to substitute it did not have an effect on the akathisia and the anxiety at all, maybe it even got worse. Is that because I did not do a careful cross-over (I subsituted according to the Asthon protocol) or is it that I maybe just dont react well to the Diazepam.

So my question is should I retry with a cross-over or just stick with the Lorazepam. And is it okay to take it twice daily or will that confuse my body because the fluctuations in the blood are too much?

[Altostrata]

@Neon, what is your complete daily drug schedule (times o'clock and dosages), including venlafaxine?

 

As explained above, you will need to stop changing your drugs to see what your baseline symptom pattern might be. Ten days of relative stability is not a sufficient observation period. Substituting diazepam for lorazepam is yet another drug change. We're not going to be able to help you until you've stopped changing your drugs.

[Neon]

@Altostrata I have updated my signature, it says when and how much of a drug I am taking. I wont change anything until I know your opinion on it, I (hope) I learned my lesson about quick changes. I havent changed anything since the 22nd August which is a relatively long time considered what I did before, so lets hope it is a good sign.

As I said my symptoms are much more bearable now but I just want to do the right thing for the future. So you would also not recommend coming off the Lorazepam at this point, you think it is too late and another change would be bad? Or changing it to Diazepam? And the spacing of the Lorazepam, is it okay?

I know I am on quite a lot of drugs now which is not ideal but the aka is better and I just try to be glad about that. I will slooowly taper off them in the future.

[Altostrata]

Why are you taking 112.5mg venlafaxine, 2.5mg olanzapine, and 0.5mg lorazepam together at 10 a.m.?

 

How do you feel after you take 0.5mg lorazepam at 7 p.m.?

 

What is your sleep schedule? How much do you sleep?

 

You have been taking lorazepam every day since August 11?

 

@Frogie 0.5mg lorazepam at 10 a.m. and 7 p.m. Your opinion, please.

[Neon]

18 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Why are you taking 112.5mg venlafaxine, 2.5mg olanzapine, and 0.5mg lorazepam together at 10 a.m.

@Altostrata 

the Venlafaxine I have been taking in the morning always,

Lorazepam I decided to split the dose to avoid interdose withdrawal 

2.5mg Olanzapine was suggested by my doctor to help with the anxiety after the Venlafaxine increase. I got anxiety which I assume was due to kindling but at the same time the akathisia improved a lot so I decided to keep taking it. The Olanzapine is not helping with the anxiety but I decided to make no quick changes anymore so I stuck with it. I am incredibly scared of the aka coming back.

 

18 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

How do you feel after you take 0.5mg lorazepam at 7 p.m.

I feel calmer and less restless, anxiety improves, sometimes I already feel good before taking it and it doesnt make a huge difference but I still took it for some continuity for my CNS.

 

18 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

What is your sleep schedule? How much do you sleep?

I sleep between 5-8 hours a night, depending on the night. The late hours usually are quite restless and it takes me 1-2 hours to fall asleep.

 

18 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

You have been taking lorazepam every day since August 11

Yes almost everyday, with maybe 2-3 days without. Yesterday I was without and felt okay the whole day, but couldnt sleep, so took it in the evening (0.25mg), so I dont know if I am still not dependent and I could possibly try without and get some less sleep for a while or if that would be a very bad idea.

 

Thank you for taking the time.

[Altostrata]

1 minute ago, Neon said:

2.5mg Olanzapine was suggested by my doctor to help with the anxiety after the Venlafaxine increase.

 

When you increased venlafaxine, your anxiety increased? Did you have akathisia prior to the venlafaxine increase? Which venlafaxine increase was this, the one on July 2?

[Frogie]

@Altostrata

 

If neon has been taking it consistently since August 11 (other that 3-4 days), they have unfortunately become dependent on it by now. What do you think of the suggestion I made?

 

@Neon

 

How are your symptoms during the day? Do you have anxiety in the afternoon? Lorazepam lasts in your system approximately 8 hours and you are taking your dosed 9 hours apart. You might want to divide the doses into 3 doses and take morning, afternoon and night. Example: .17 mg 10am, 

.17 mg 3pm, and .17 mg 7pm to keep it steady in your bloodstream.

 

The unfortunate part is you’ll have to crush the tablets and weigh them, putting the in gel caps to get .5 mg in 3 doses.

 

I’ll be happy to help you do this but you will need a scale and gel caps.

[Altostrata]

I think you're correct about the 3 doses, @Frogie Neon's been on this schedule only 10 days, I'd like to see her symptom baseline before moving anything around.

 

@Neon, now that you're on a regular drug schedule, we need to see daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. We need to know how you feel before and after taking each drug, and your symptoms in between. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

 

This will help us see if you're getting interdose withdrawal from the benzo and guide us in determining what your next step should be. @Frogie please join me in reviewing Neon's daily symptom pattern.

[Frogie]

@Altostrata

 

As soon as neon posts the daily schedule, I’ll be happy to look at it with you.

[Neon]

9 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

When you increased venlafaxine, your anxiety increased?

@Altostrata

Yes, it did.

 

9 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Did you have akathisia prior to the venlafaxine increase?

Yes, I did, very strong akathisia.

 

10 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Which venlafaxine increase was this, the one on July 2?

No, the one on 11th and 22nd August, prior to that my anxiety did not increase with the Venlafaxine increases. First I updosed to 75mg Venlafaxine and the anxiety increased but the aka did not improve. I was so desperate with the aka that I still updosed again to 112.5mg and then the aka decreased and the anxiety stayed the same.

 

@Frogie Thank you so much for stopping by too and giving your valuable input. I can order a scale and get gel caps. Is there any scale that is very good with this? I have an electrical scale for microdoses but I noticed with very tiny dosages it is not accurate.

[Neon]

@Altostrata so I should just keep taking the drugs as they are now?

[Frogie]

@Neon

 

Alto wants you to take the meds just as you are now and post 24 hours of notes before we move or do anything different.

 

Thanks!

[Frogie]

5 minutes ago, Neon said:

Thank you so much for stopping by too and giving your valuable input. I can order a scale and get gel caps. Is there any scale that is very good with this? I have an electrical scale for microdoses but I noticed with very tiny dosages it is not accurate.

If you need a scale, the one that is used the most on here (I used it forever) is the Gemini 20. It’s available on Amazon along with the gel caps. After we assess your notes, if needed I would order the “00” gel caps as they are much easier to work with. But let’s get the notes and go from there😊

[Neon]

@Frogie okay I will post daily notes and keep everything steady, I promise 🙂 

and you are sure I am dependent already even though I was symptom free yesterday with only taking it in the evening? just want to be sure, if I can avoid a benzo taper I will, I heard it is very hard and I am scared of tolerance withdrawal I read about. How was it for you?

 

@Altostrata so I should not drop anything, also keep the 2.5mg Olanzapine in the morning? Since I am only taking it for 3 weeks I thought maybe I could get away with just dropping it but I wont do anything rash I promise 🙂 

 

Promises not to do anything rash to both of you

[Frogie]

@Neon

 

Mine wasn’t fun at all. But I was on it for over 20 years and

3-4 mg a day. Then my dr decided I was tapering too slowly after he reassured me I could taper as slowly as needed. My circumstances are much different as yours. Everyone is different though. I suspect you have become dependent on it by now. But let’s see how your notes are the next 24 hours and you take everything at the same time/same amount as Alto wants you to.

[Altostrata]

1 hour ago, Neon said:

and you are sure I am dependent already even though I was symptom free yesterday with only taking it in the evening?

 

This is an unanswerable question as in 6 pages over 8 months, you have avoided posted daily notes, yet frequently complained of symptoms that might be rebound from the benzo. So we can't say for sure.

 

If you do not post those daily notes, we cannot help you.

[Neon]

 

@Altostrata and @Frogie

I hope it is okay to tag you, I am not sure about that. Please let me know, I dont want to bother you unnecessarily.

 

It was a rough day anxiety wise, I dont know why, I didnt change anything about my medication and the last 10 days were pretty okay. I did my best to distract.

 

2nd/3rd September

19:00 feel a little restless 3/10, no anxiety, take 0.25mg Lorazepam

19:30 feel less restless

20:00 watch a little tv, feeling a little anxiety, a little restless

21:30 take 5mg Olanzapine, dont feel any different from it

22:00 go to bed

23:00 fall asleep

05:00 wake up restless, no anxiety,  stay in bed, toss and turn for a few hours trying to go back to sleep

10:00 get up, no anxiety, take cocktail of drugs, feel a little calmer with the Lorazepam, less restless

10:30 have breakfast

11:00 do some work for parents

12:30 have lunch

13:30 anxiety starts to peak 8/10, try to meditate but too much anxiety

16:00 anxiety lessens, able to watch some tv

18:00 anxiety increases again 8/10

19:00 take 0.25mg Lorazepam

20:00 anxiety gone

20:00 have dinner

20:15 weird euphoria-like feeling, my body feels very light, have not had this before

21:30 take 5mg Olanzapine

 

Intuitively I would say I am not yet dependent but of course I could be wrong. The day I didnt take it I had no anxiety at all. I dont know how to tell. The Lorazepam helps with symptoms but I wonder for how long until I develop tolerance, it happens pretty quickly with me, I know that from the Zoldem, I developped tolerance within two weeks. And I am quite scared of a benzo taper, I know I did this to myself by even taking it in the first place so I cant really complain. 

[Neon]

I started Omega-3-Pills today, maybe the anxiety was due to that. I will try without tmrow. I took one pill.

[Neon]

and frogie, I am sorry you had such a rough time coming off benzos, the fact that you did inspite is very inspiring 🙂 

[Frogie]

@Neon and @Altostrata

 

From the notes that were posted, it looks to me like the lorazepam did help with the anxiety? You felt less restless after each dose.

 

But now you say you took one Omega? You might want to stop it as you said. Altostrata wanted 24 hours of notes with no changes so we can assess what’s going on.

Please don’t make any changes other than stopping the omega and post a couple days worth of notes. 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Frogie

[Neon]

@Frogie okay, but wouldnt it be possible I become dependent during those days? I thought it was a time game.

[Frogie]

It could be a time game, but Altostrata wants 24 hours of notes with no changes at all. However, if you look at the notes you provided, after the lorazepam doses your restlessness was much better.

[Neon]

I think I might currently be having a paradoxical reaction to the evening dose, two hours after taking I had this euphoria feeling and am now very activated. I had this once before but it subsided. will put it in my daily notes tmrow.

[Altostrata]

You may have had a rough patch because you changed your drug schedule.

 

3 hours ago, Neon said:

10:00 get up, no anxiety, take cocktail of drugs, feel a little calmer with the Lorazepam, less restless

 

What cocktail??? Please specify which drugs at what dosages in your daily notes.

 

We cannot tell anything from one day of notes, we need to see a series. As I stated before, we can't tell anything about whether you are dependent on the benzo, you have not been forthcoming with daily notes. Frankly, it's been like pulling teeth, as we say in the US.

 

That you feel calmer overall suggests you might have had interdose withdrawal before.

[Neon]

20 hours ago, Altostrata said:

You may have had a rough patch because you changed your drug schedule.

What change do you mean? When I didnt take the benzo for a day? After increasing the Venlafaxine I felt the aka was better immediately. 

My drug cocktail is Venlafaxine 112.5mg, 2.5mg Olanzapine, 0.25mg Lorazepam, as it states in my signature I thought it is enough, will put it in everytime from now on.

 

3/4 Sept 2021

21:30 5mg Olanzapine

21:30 sudden feeling of agitation, despair, euphoria morphed into this feeling, think it might be from the Lorazepam

22:00 go to bed, feel very agitated, restless, tingling feeling in body

00:00 fall asleep

05:00 wake up, restless sleep til 09:00

10:00 get up, take Venlafaxine 112.5mg, 2.5mg Olanzapine, 0.25mg Lorazepam

11:00 feel shaky, like tremor in hands and legs, full of despair, agitated, restless, doom feeling, strong SI surges

12:00 manage to eat sth

13:00 again full despair, SI, mental akathisia, restlessness, shakyness, tingling of body, palpitations

lasts til evening, I wander from bed to garden to smoke to bed, cant lie still, cant distract

16:00 try some gardening to change the channel, works not really

17:00 cry full of despair that I wont stabilize bec I messed up my system too much, cry for an hour, feel a little calmer after, also exhausted

18:00 eat dinner

19:00 take 0.25mg Lorazepam, still feeling awful

20:00 force myself to go for a walk, deep depressed feeling, like no hope is left

21:30 take 5mg Olanzapine

 

Today was pure hell, I dont know why, its like I am back to square one. I think what messes with me most is that I felt better after my reinstatement and then messed it all up by reducing my dosage and consequently playing ping pong with my brain.

 

[Altostrata]

13 minutes ago, Neon said:

21:30 5mg Olanzapine

21:30 sudden feeling of agitation, despair, euphoria morphed into this feeling, think it might be from the Lorazepam

 

Do you mean the lorazepam you took at 19:00?

 

14 minutes ago, Neon said:

22:00 go to bed, feel very agitated, restless, tingling feeling in body

00:00 fall asleep

 

Is this your typical nighttime pattern, before you fall asleep?

[Neon]

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Do you mean the lorazepam you took at 19:00?

yes

 

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

 

Is this your typical nighttime pattern, before you fall asleep?

no, not usually, I had it once before when I took the Lorazepam late but it subsided

[Altostrata]

27 minutes ago, Neon said:

21:30 sudden feeling of agitation, despair, euphoria morphed into this feeling, think it might be from the Lorazepam

 

Did this occur before or after you took olanzapine?