jipavl: Unsuccessful Olanzapine tapper

[jipavl]

On 2/12/2021 at 1:51 PM, manymoretodays said:

Hi jipavl,

We'd love to hear more about you, and your story too.

How have you managed the low periods or "depression" ?

Have you managed drug free?

 

Hello,

I was not drug free for a long time. I got depressed again a so ended on drugs again. Did not know what else to do.

 

Doing quite poorly now. I have a lot of anxiety and trouble sleeping. Currently, on 50mg sertraline and 25mg agomelatine.

Weird thing is that even when I am in a good mood and anxiety is at bay I wont be able to fell asleep. Whenever I feel my brain is slumbering off then "zzap" and I wake up.

I think it is the sertraline, that is preventing me from sleep.

I'm just in a bad place mentally and cannot try to discontinue the drug as I'd than spiral downward into even more terrible depressions and anxiety.

I tried to quit the sertraline CT once and endured it only for 3 days. It was much worse than Venlafaxine withdrawal that I once experienced.

 

Quote

 

I've always wondered about some of the diagnoses of Sleep Apnea and the relation to the drugs that people are on.

 

It is definitely possible.   Or the the Sleep Apnoea is just accidental finding. Lot of people have mild apnoa, but re asymptomatic.

Quote

And I also noticed, slowly, over time, that many of the problems that were secondary to the AD's(antidepressants) went away, after I came off them.  As well as when I came off some of the other drugs from different classes.

 

 

And I wonder if you would like to start an Introduction topic, and do a signature for us as well.  That would be most helpful. 

Would love to hear more about your experiences, and goals for living.

 

Thank you.

 

See:

 

Introductions and Updates

and:  Please put your withdrawal history in your signature

 

Edited May 22, 2023 by manymoretodays
Introduction topics merged, Title changed, olanzapine to tags

[Altostrata]

Welcome, @jipavl

 

It's unusual for someone to be taking 2 antidepressants. What times of day do you take each of your drugs, with their dosages?

 

Please put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php
and copy and paste the results or a link to them in this topic.

[manymoretodays]

  

On 2/13/2021 at 5:27 AM, jipavl said:

Three days after stopping 50mg sertraline I'd get muscle pain all over.

All my muscles were jerking randomly. It was unbearable. I went back to sertraline.

I need to stabilize now and then maybe start a slow tapper later.

 

Hi jipavl, @jipavland okay good, Looks like you've gotten your own Introduction topic started now.

I just quoted one of your posts from another members topic here as well ^

 

Please summarize you withdrawal history in your signature to help us out:

  

On 7/19/2011 at 9:31 AM, Altostrata said:

Putting a SHORT version of your recent history of reducing or discontinuing drugs in your signature helps people understand your context when they read your posts.

 

Your signature appears under all your posts.

 

Staff needs this information to answer your questions. In your signature, we need to see

- Exactly what you're taking now, with dosages and when you started each drug

- What you were taking before, with dosages and start and stop dates

 

As the signature is limited to 12 lines, we expect you will condense your drug history. The last few years usually will do.

 

FOR READABILITY, SHORT LINES ARE BEST.

• A list is easier to understand than one or multiple paragraphs
• Include ALL drugs, doses, and dates (starting and stopping)
• Any drugs prior to 24 months ago can just be listed with start and stop years
• Use actual dates or approximate dates (e.g. mid-June 2018) rather than relative time frames (e.g. 3 months ago)
• Spell out months (e.g. "January" or "Jan" as 9/1/2016 can be interpreted as 9 Jan 2016 or 1 Sept 2016)
• Please leave out symptoms and diagnoses

 

Example:

2001–2002 paroxetine 
2003  citalopram 
2004  paroxetine
2008  paroxetine slow taper down to 2016 Aug off paroxetine
2016  citalopram May 20mg  Oct slow taper down
2018  citalopram 13 Feb 4.6mg 15 Mar 4.4mg 29 Apr 4.2mg

 

If you edit your signature, the new one replaces any prior signature. It will appear in your signature under all your posts, even your old posts. If you want to save the information in the old signature, copy it and save it in a file on your computer or in a post in your Introductions topic.

 

(As of 12/31/13: Signatures are limited to 12 lines of text.)

How to add or edit your signature

1. Click on this link to open the correct page in User Settings:
   Create Your Signature in "Account Settings". 
   2017-June 12 update: link works on desktop, tablet and mobile phone versions
    
2. Enter your signature in the space provided.
3. When you are done, Click on the big black Save button at the bottom.
    

If the link isn't working, follow these steps:

1. Click on the small downward arrow next to your name in the top right corner of any page.
2. Select Account Settings from the list.
3. On the left of the Account Settings page, click on the Signature tab. You will be able to add or edit your signature.
4. Click on the big black Save button at the bottom when you are done.

 

FOR READABILITY, SHORT LINES ARE BEST.

 

(The history you entered when you registered can be read only by you and the administration team. If you wish, you can copy it to your public signature.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

And then you can just click on the link, or click on the arrow, to see the instructions for doing the signature and the how to.  It is a bit different from what you might have put into your confidential profile information, at registration.  You'll see other members signatures below their posts, and it's a good way for us to see where you are at, wherever you post.

 

And then I see Alto had some questions for you too, to help us get to know you and get you started.

 

I'm not real familiar with agomelatine, but did find a tapering topic on it.  One of the brand names for it is Valdoxan.
Tips for tapering off Valdoxan(agomelatine)

 

So far, I have not been able to get it into the drug interaction checker by either name.

11 hours ago, Altostrata said:

It's unusual for someone to be taking 2 antidepressants. What times of day do you take each of your drugs, with their dosages?

 

Let us know on the questions above in a reply.

 

Welcome jipavl, and thank you.

 

Love, peace, healing, and growth,

manymoretodays(mmt)

[manymoretodays]

On 2/13/2021 at 12:50 AM, jipavl said:

I was not drug free for a long time. I got depressed again a so ended on drugs again. Did not know what else to do.

 

Doing quite poorly now. I have a lot of anxiety and trouble sleeping. Currently, on 50mg sertraline and 25mg agomelatine.

Weird thing is that even when I am in a good mood and anxiety is at bay I wont be able to fell asleep. Whenever I feel my brain is slumbering off then "zzap" and I wake up.

I think it is the sertraline, that is preventing me from sleep.

I'm just in a bad place mentally and cannot try to discontinue the drug as I'd than spiral downward into even more terrible depressions and anxiety.

I tried to quit the sertraline CT once and endured it only for 3 days. It was much worse than Venlafaxine withdrawal that I once experienced.

 

 

And hi again.  You might have tapered too quickly and then also may be experiencing some protracted WD(withdrawal) from the Venlafaxine.

So......I'll just give you some of the basic information about WD, and then tapering.

And meantime, it's okay to not work on tapering right now.  Sometimes it's best to get some stability, before tapering. 

Let's also help you get familiar with your current drugs, and how they work now too.

 

The 10% taper recommendation is a harm reduction approach to going off psychiatric drugs.

*Why taper by 10% of my dosage?

 

What is withdrawal syndrome.

Brain Remodelling

The windows and waves pattern of stabilization

 

Dr.Glenmullen’s withdrawal symptom list.

 

The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

When we take medications, the CNS (central nervous system) responds by making changes over the months and years we take the drug(s). When the medication is discontinued, the CNS has to undo all the changes it made.  The CNS likes stability. Rebuilding the neurotransmitter production and reactivating the receptor and transporter cells takes time -- during that rebuilding process symptoms occur.

 

We don't recommend a lot of supplements on SA, as many members report being sensitive to them due to our over-reactive nervous systems, but two supplements that we do recommend are magnesium and omega 3 (fish oil). Many people find these to be calming to the nervous system.   Going on and off psychiatric drugs can create a sensitivity to lot's of things.  And so, as a general rule we do recommend that you only start one at a time, and then just a small amount at first.  This way you can know what might be doing what, and how you are reacting to it.

 

Magnesium, nature's calcium channel blocker 

Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) 

 

And all for now.  So sorry.  When did the sleep and the anxiety problems start?

And some of the zaps might be brain zaps, and the sleep disturbance may be due to cortisol awakenings.  Sleep can be so very healing.

Brain zaps

and Papp, 2018, Brain Zaps: an Underappreciated Symptom of Antidepressant Withdrawal

 

Early morning waking- managing the morning cortisol spike

 

This is your introduction/journal page where you have now introduced yourself to the community, you can ask questions here regarding your tapering, give updates, and just keep a record of your journey.

 

And best,

L, P, H, and G,

mmt

 

[jipavl]

Hello,

 

I could use some advice. End of 2018 was a very stressful period for me. So I ended at psychiatrist again.

I got prescribed Venlafaxine and Olanzapine as a mood stabilizer. I did know much about medications and just did was told by the doctors.

 

After some 6 months I quit Olanzapine CT without an issue and stayed on Venlafaxine only.

Summer 2019 I felt well and decided to quit Venlafaxine. I suffered some 2 weeks of WD like brain zapes, but they went away.

 

After several weeks I got all kinds of musculoskeletal pain. Probably delayed onset WD from Venlafaxine.

This was a huge stressor for me and started  several months of constant worry and stress about my physical condition.

That is why I ended on AD (sertraline) again. My psych also suggested that I can take the Olanzapine as needed when I'm down.

 

So I was taking 5mg Olanzapine from 10/2020-12/2020. It was only then that I did some research, realized what Olanzapine is and decided to quit.

As CT worked for me last time I did it again (beginning 2021).

 

What I'm trying to determine what of my current symptoms are WD and what underlying condition.

I had bad sleep for many months now due to stress.

 

After Olenzapine CT I experienced more severe insomnia. I entered therapy and lowered my stress and was sleeping relatively well 3 weeks into my WD I for about a week.

 

But since then things went downhill, I experience anxiety on scale as never before, insomnia is more severe, barely able to function etc.

Now I cannot sleep even when I feel relaxed and well. Usually I fell into sleep no problem, but wake up soon.

 

I'm just not sure whether I should attribute it to WD. What about the better week I had?

I'm pondering whether I should restart Olanzapine and tapper slowly or just ride it out.

 

 

Thanks for reading this.

 

 

[jipavl]

23 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Welcome, @jipavl

 

It's unusual for someone to be taking 2 antidepressants. What times of day do you take each of your drugs, with their dosages?

 

Hi,

 

agomelatine is atypical AD, it works by binding to Melatonin receptors and should promote sleep. It doesn't  interfere with SSRI type ADs.

[jipavl]

12 hours ago, jipavl said:

Hello,

 

I could use some advice. End of 2018 was a very stressful period for me. So I ended at psychiatrist again.

I got prescribed Venlafaxine and Olanzapine as a mood stabilizer. I did know much about medications and just did was told by the doctors.

 

After some 6 months I quit Olanzapine CT without an issue and stayed on Venlafaxine only.

Summer 2019 I felt well and decided to quit Venlafaxine. I suffered some 2 weeks of WD like brain zapes, but they went away.

 

After several weeks I got all kinds of musculoskeletal pain. Probably delayed onset WD from Venlafaxine.

This was a huge stressor for me and started  several months of constant worry and stress about my physical condition.

That is why I ended on AD (sertraline) again. My psych also suggested that I can take the Olanzapine as needed when I'm down.

 

So I was taking 5mg Olanzapine from 10/2020-12/2020. It was only then that I did some research, realized what Olanzapine is and decided to quit.

As CT worked for me last time I did it again (beginning 2021).

 

What I'm trying to determine what of my current symptoms are WD and what underlying condition.

I had bad sleep for many months now due to stress.

 

After Olenzapine CT I experienced more severe insomnia. I entered therapy and lowered my stress and was sleeping relatively well 3 weeks into my WD I for about a week.

 

But since then things went downhill, I experience anxiety on scale as never before, insomnia is more severe, barely able to function etc.

Now I cannot sleep even when I feel relaxed and well. Usually I fell into sleep no problem, but wake up soon.

 

I'm just not sure whether I should attribute it to WD. What about the better week I had?

I'm pondering whether I should restart Olanzapine and tapper slowly or just ride it out.

 

 

Thanks for reading this.

 

 

Any ideas?

[Altostrata]

On 2/15/2021 at 11:39 PM, Altostrata said:

Welcome, @jipavl

 

It's unusual for someone to be taking 2 antidepressants. What times of day do you take each of your drugs, with their dosages?

 

Please put ALL your drugs in the Drug Interactions Checker https://www.drugs.com/drug_interactions.php
and copy and paste the results or a link to them in this topic.

 

Hello, @jipavl. Please take care to answer all questions from the staff, so we don't have to put in the time to ask them again.

[jipavl]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

 

Hello, @jipavl. Please take care to answer all questions from the staff, so we don't have to put in the time to ask them again.

Hello,

 

I take 50mg Sertraline in the morning and 25mg Agomelatine in the evening.

 

The drug interactions checker does not list Agomelatine.

[Altostrata]

Please add months of events and drug dosages in your signature.

 

On 2/12/2021 at 11:50 PM, jipavl said:

It was much worse than Venlafaxine withdrawal that I once experienced.

 

Were you able to sleep while you were taking venlafaxine? How long did you take venlafaxine? What were your withdrawal symptoms when you went off venlafaxine? What drug did you take after you went off venlafaxine? 

 

[jipavl]

33 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Please add months of events and drug dosages in your signature.

 

 

Were you able to sleep while you were taking venlafaxine? How long did you take venlafaxine? What were your withdrawal symptoms when you went off venlafaxine? What drug did you take after you went off venlafaxine? 

 

I could sleep on Venlafaxine. It would wake me up in the middle of the night, but i was able to go back to sleep.

 

I was on it for some 18 months.

 

Venlafaxine withdrawal symptoms were headaches, general malaise, flu like feeling. It lasted for about 2 weeks.

Then after about a month various muscle aches appeared.

 

Then after a pause restarted Venlafaxine it was then changed to Sertraline. Sorry don't remember exact dates. Sertraline since mid December.

 

Unfortunately also Olenzapine 5mg, 10/2020 - 12/202

Edited February 18, 2021 by jipavl
Added more information

[jipavl]

Hello,

 

I have a question on Olanzapine tapper and reinstatement.

I was dropping Olanzapine by 0.5 mg a month. I started to experience problems with sleep when I got to 1 mg. It was up and down. On Friday, I actually felt fresh and rested. Then yesterday I slept only 3.5 hours and felt like a zombie.

Yesterday I decided to go back on 1.5 mg. Sleep was not very good and broken, but it must have been about 6–7 hours in total. Don't feel great, but it is bearable.

During the night, I had all kinds of strange symptoms. For example, whenever it looked I might doze off, I started to have a vivid dream, which lasted for a couple of seconds, and it would wake me up.

 

I understand that this site recommends to wait 4 days to evaluate whether the reinstatement worked. Should I now wait and if I still have problems rise to 2 mg?

 

Thank you

[jipavl]

Hello,

 

I have a question regarding Olanzapine tapper and reinstatement.

I was dropping Olanzapine by 0.5 mg a month. I started to experience problems with sleep when I got to 1 mg.

So I went back to 1.5 mg. Sleep improved for several days, but then it started to deteriorate again.

Today I slept only 2 hours and experienced weird phenomena, I think it is called hypnagogia. Yesterday was actually better as I slept 7 hours in total - broken into 1 - 2 hours segments.

 

I'm thinking about going back to 2.5 mg, but fear it will not help either.

 

Thank you

Edited May 21, 2023 by manymoretodays
name to topic title

[jipavl]

Hello,

 

So I went back to 1.5 mg. Sleep improved for several days, but then it started to deteriorate again.

 

Now it seems to be up and down.

17.5. slept 7 hours in total, broken into 1 - 2 hours segments

18.5. slept only 2 hours

19.5. 6-7 hours of broken sleep

20.5. 7.5 hours of broken sleep

21.5. 1.5 hours

 

Today I again experienced weird phenomena, I think it is called hypnagogia. It happened before.

 

I'm thinking about going back to 2.5 mg, but fear it will fail the same way updose to 1.5 mg did.

 

PS: Can I change title and tags of my topic?

[Carmie]

Hi @jipavl I’m sorry you’re suffering from insomnia. Going up and down in doses constantly can destabilise your brain. Also, we recommend only tapering by 10% of the previous dose each month, it looks like you’re  tapering too quickly. 
 

What dose were on before 1mg and how long were you on that? Continually chopping and changing doses will only destabilise your brain even more. As you said, updosing again might not help at all, and it could actually make things worse. You need to stick to one dose and stop changing doses all the time. Are you still on 1.5mg or have you changed doses again? 
 

The best thing to do is to just stick to one dose and let your brain stabilise, it might take a long time though because of all the changes you’ve made. Once you stabilise, it’s best to taper by no more than 10% of the previous dose per month. 
 

Sending hugs🤗

Edited May 22, 2023 by Carmie

[jipavl]

8 hours ago, Carmie said:

What dose were on before 1mg and how long were you on that? Continually chopping and changing doses will only destabilise your brain even more. As you said, updosing again might not help at all, and it could actually make things worse. You need to stick to one dose and stop changing doses all the time. Are you still on 1.5mg or have you changed doses again?

 

HI Carmie,

 

thanks for the reply.

 

Before 1 mg I was at 1.5 mg for a month. I have updated my signature and put exact dates there.

I'm still at 1.5mg.

 

 

[jipavl]

Now the sleep seems to be up and down.

17.5. slept 7 hours in total, broken into 1 - 2 hours segments

18.5. slept only 2 hours

19.5. 6-7 hours of light broken sleep

20.5. 7.5 hours of light broken sleep

21.5. 1.5 hours

 

When I cannot sleep I experience weird phenomena, I think it is called hypnagogic hallucinations. These started to appear after I went back to 1.5mg.

 

Today (22.5.) I forget to take my Trazodone pill. Could not fall asleep and was tormented by hypnagogic hallucinations. Then I remembered to take Trazodone and fell asleep. Had a light 6 hours sleep. Feel groggy in the morning, but better than when sleeping 1–2 hours.

 

So it looks that it is trazodone that gives me some sleep. Olanzapine just gives me those hypnagogic hallucinations, which keep me awake. I wonder whether they will ever go away.

[manymoretodays]

On 5/21/2023 at 1:20 AM, jipavl said:

PS: Can I change title and tags of my topic?

 

Introduction topics merged newest to old.  Re-titled.  Olanzapine added to tags.

[jipavl]

7 hours of light, broken sleep. Very tired, but better than total insomnia.

Still thinking of going back to 4 mg Olanzapine. I was stable on that for a long time. Frankly, I don't really know what to do,

 

[jipavl]

My sleep has stabilized. I seem to sleep at least 6 hours now, but the sleep must be lacking the deep stage, as I don't feel refreshed in the morning.

[jipavl]

Over the weekend, I slept 10–11 hours. Actually, I did not sleep the whole time. Part of that was sleep and towards the morning I was in a very light sleep, constantly waking up. My sleep was poor and despite the time in bed, I woke up tired.

Today I slept only 5.5 hours and then could not fall back to sleep. I was tormented by hypnagogic hallucinations.

[jipavl]

Is it possible to remove all drugs, expect Olanzapine and trazodone, from this topic?

[PluckyPony]

Hi jipavl!  I used to take Zyprexa for more than 3 years and I had the most difficult time withdrawing from it.  What ultimately worked for me was transitioning to Abilify, which I tolerated much more than Zyprexa and has a longer half-life than Zyprexa, then slowly tapering off.  A healthy mindset also helps.  Any sleep is good sleep, try not to worry about the quality so much.  It may take years, but you can and will heal.  

[jipavl]

Hi PluckyPony,

 

thanks for your comment and congratulations to your successful tapper.

I'm currently at 1.5 mg Olanzapine and not sure whether I should manipulate with the dose or just hold.

Trying to stay positive, but those hypnagogias and DP/DR that I developed scare me.

Hopefully time will heal.

 

 

[PluckyPony]

8 hours ago, jipavl said:

Hi PluckyPony,

 

thanks for your comment and congratulations to your successful tapper.

I'm currently at 1.5 mg Olanzapine and not sure whether I should manipulate with the dose or just hold.

Trying to stay positive, but those hypnagogias and DP/DR that I developed scare me.

Hopefully time will heal.

 

 

Dear jipavl;

 

Hold.    Let your mind recover before you reduce again.  Try 5% of the next dose after 1.5mg of olanzapine.  Just do it as slowly as possible. You will make it.  It may take years, but your freedom and peace of mind is worth it!

 

Thank you for the congratulations! I had moments when I could NOT sleep for months. My dreams still feel weird, but the sleep has become more restful over time.  Don't cold turkey Olanzapine! It can be terrible due to it's super short half life.  Continue on the low and slow path.  I know that you will make it!