ScottishLass: hello and some help please

[Gridley]

23 minutes ago, ScottishLass said:

what's the recommended time to stay on the 1mg before attempting zero AD's

I would give it several months for the reinstatement to stabilize and settle in.  More improvements may occur and I'd give it time for that.  I would make no increase now.  You want to RI at the lowest dose possible.  Too much can overwhelm your sensitized system.

I'm very happy to RI is working.

 

[ScottishLass]

@Gridley

Several months really? On the 1mg? God, I hope the Docs agree to continue to supply that long. Will I not then be addicted to the 1mg?

[Gridley]

25 minutes ago, ScottishLass said:

@Gridley

Several months really? On the 1mg? God, I hope the Docs agree to continue to supply that long. Will I not then be addicted to the 1mg?

The purpose of reinstatement is to reduce withdrawal symptoms, which from your post it seems to be doing really well.  You have long since been physiologically dependent of on the drug.  Re the doctors,  all I can suggest is that you tell them you're doing well on that dose and that you want be on the lowest effective dose and this seems to be working. Talking about going off drugs is generally counterproductive with doctors, but wanting to be on the lowest effective dose often works in talking with them.

[Rosetta]

SL,

 

I’m so pleased that you are feeling better!  Gridley is a godsend, and he has helped me even though there wasn’t much anyone could do for my situation.  
 

Some people let the doctor decide the dose when they are taking tiny amounts.  If he says 1 mg could not be helping you, ask him what he thinks is enough.  It doesn’t matter as long as you have those capsules to use.  
 

This is not likely to happen, but you might show him this if he tries to switch you to a different medication:

 

 

https://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/docs/default-source/mental-health/treatments-and-wellbeing/print-outs/stopping-antidepressant-printable.pdf?sfvrsn=2c9a63e0_2

 

Be careful how you do it.  Act like you you need his expertise and guidance until he says something that indicates that he’s not going to give you Duloxetine.  Then, you must insist on D somehow but still being careful to not offend him.  Its not likely to happen.  D isn’t a benzo.  There’s no reason for him to refuse.

 

I’m glad you enjoy music again.  I always wondered why other people enjoyed so many different things, but I didn’t.

 

How much zopiclone do you have left?  That’s the one he might want to stop.  You may need to be extra careful not to take too much because he won’t want to let you get hooked.

 

🦋Rosetta

 

[ScottishLass]

Hi @Rosetta

Thanks for your message. Another ok day today. I am really surprised at the change in my motivation since quitting Duloxetine and still with  the 1mg reinstatement motivation is good.  Gives me hope - tinged with sadness and rage at the thought of the lost years. Trying to let that go and start from where I am though.

 

I now have no Z’s left so after a week of 7mg a night I have a feeling I may not sleep tonight. I went on a long-ish walk today to try and tire myself out and didn’t nap so fingers crossed I’m wrong and the zzzzz’s do come. Who knows! 

 

Hope your day is/was good. 😊

SL

 

 

 

 

[Gridley]

22 hours ago, Rosetta said:

 

Be careful how you do it.  Act like you you need his expertise and guidance until he says something that indicates that he’s not going to give you Duloxetine.  Then, you must insist on D somehow but still being careful to not offend him.  Its not likely to happen.  D isn’t a benzo.  There’s no reason for him to refuse.

 

SL,

 

This is excellent advice from Rosetta.

 

Gridley

[ScottishLass]

Yes 🙏🏻

Thankyou @Rosetta and @Gridley

[ScottishLass]

To whoever, 

Today has been a really difficult day. The spontaneous deep crying appeared again and such immense sadness. I'm so disappointed, so horrified. I truly thought that was over, that I would be the one that miraculously stabilised straight away on a small reinstatement and everything would be wonderful. I really convinced myself that was going to happen. I've had a week or so of reprieve and I was so relieved because I thought I can't have those feelings again.  I can't allow myself to even consider that possibility that this is what the short-term or long-term picture may be.........because I can't do that. I can't have that going on in my life for weeks, months, years. I can't live with that thought or frightening 'not knowing'.  

I can't believe it. Can't deal with it. You can't live this way, what the feck will happen when I go back to work, how do I keep anything together. I still am refusing to believe this will continue for any length of time. It can't. NO WAY. I feel devastated. So fricking ridiculous and self pitying  I know, but that is how I feel.  

[Rosetta]

Yes, it goes like that.  This is windows and waves.  It’s awful.  Truly awful.  I’m so sorry.

 

 It really does resolve itself, but not in any way that is perceptible in the short term.  Only after weeks will you look back and see that you have improved.  You ARE improving, and someone very close to you may see it before you do.  My husband started to see it, once he got somewhat used to the fact that recovery is not linear.  
 

The non-linear trajectory is what makes it hard for people to understand that it IS recovery.  The windows and waves make doctors guess that it is a type of bi-polar disorder (they call it bi-polar II.). It’s not bi-polar disorder.  This back and forth upsets our families.  No one understands this type of healing except doctors who treat TBI and benzo withdrawal.  Those two types understand this, but we don’t get to see them.  (There aren’t many who treat benzo WD properly either.)
 

Family, friends, everyone is confused by the waves coming again and again.  Most illnesses improve in a linear fashion except when brain injuries are involved.  This isn’t a brain injury like a knock to the head, but it mimics that.  
 

Nothing is permanently changed.  One theory is that, in both cases, TBI and WD, the brain has to re-grow receptors and start producing it’s own neurotransmitters.  It overshoots the mark, and we feel terrible in one way.  It tries again, and we get a different type of odd symptom.  Each time, there is a change in the brain, and the brain has to balance the odd amounts of this and that and the changing levels of hormones.  The body reacts with WD symptoms.  Things calm down for a while when a balance is struck.  Then, another change happens in the brain.  It’s horrifically messy, indeed.  
 

Reinstatement is meant to help this process smooth out by giving the brain what it had before.  

 

You may need to take leave from work.  You may not.  People do work through.  It depends.  Do you have support at home?  Someone to cook for you, keep your clothes clean, keep you organized?  It’s quite a lot like being a child, in my opinion.  The moodiness, the lack of organization, the need for help.  You may need support to function well enough. Some people don’t or rather, they do, but they muddle through.
 

It is still early.  We don’t know if you will see more quick improvement because you reinstated.  It could happen.  It’s good to think about how to handle working while recovering from this.  Make some plans.  Ask for help.

 

It’s going to be ok.  Your life will be different, but you will learn how to manage.  You really will.  What seems impossible now is actually doable after some time learning how to deal with this.

 

You have every right to feel horrified.  I don’t think it will be the same for you as it was for me.  Don’t look at my thread and think your journey will be similar.  Your reinstatement is working as far as the Mods seem to indicate.  That is a very good sign that you will not have my situation.  You won’t be like this — the way you are now — until the completion of your healing either.  I wasn’t..  You will get to a point when you manage quite well and continue healing from there.  Hopefully, that’s likely to happen for you much faster than it has for me.

 

 

[ScottishLass]

@Rosetta

Thank you so much for your response Rosetta. It was so helpful. I feel a bit exposed and stupid now. This morning things seem a little easier and my state of mind yesterday, ridiculous, and over-reaction. Though it was very real and over-whelming yesterday.  I guess though as you say, it’s windows and waves. Your analogy of a child rang a bell.  I feel like I am having to re-learn. How to think, feel, understand and how to navigate a new, unknown life.  Whoa! Even the thought of that gives me a wave of fear and sadness but under it hope. I guess, it is light and shade.  If I hadn’t stopped the AD’s I wouldn’t be in this situation, sure (and I REALLY don’t want to be).  Equally though,  I could still be on them        and the relief of that (however the symptoms present) is a scary thought.  I ‘got out’, of it (taking AD’s) and my head. I’m proud of that and the real essence of me is still there, it’s not dead.  Now I can see it.  Also, I have noticed I am naturally using much healthier, mindful coping strategies to manage.  More than I ever did before, stuck in that fog, disconnected and lurching urgently through life. God, AD’s really have been insidious, harmful things in the long run for me. 

 

Anyhow, I’ll take today as it comes and hopefully manage a little more gracefully and with kindness. Got to have hope. 

 

Off for a wee walk up Arthur’s Seat (An extinct volcano  which is now the main peak of hills in the middle of Edinburgh).  You feel like you could be in the middle of nowhere up there and the views of the City and beyond are incredible.  Grateful I live in such a magical city. It helps a lot. 😊 

 

Thanks again and I hope too that your day is good. 

SL

 

[ScottishLass]

@Gridley @Rosetta  @AltostrataAny other Mods etc. Sorry I’m still not sure how I’m supposed to be using this site or who I’m asking questions to. 

 

I do have a couple of questions though. Over the last week or so as I have said in my posts so far my motivation has come back in abundance which to me is a life-saver/life changer. It needed to happen for me to see any point tbh and it is so welcome.  However, I am wondering how ‘real’ this is (it does feel like the old me and I was in the creative industries back then, though it’s so difficult to remember) but I have a little niggle in the back of my head that there is something almost hypomanic about this. My creativity has exploded (I always have been creative) but this is in quite an obsessive, compulsive manner. I CANNOT stop painting and drawing and planning creative projects. I don’t have an issue with this (except a slightly uncomfortable urgency to do it) but it feels excessive and unusual. For example in the last 10 years I have completed a couple of paintings and a few sketches/drawings. I’m not an artist.  In the last few weeks ive bought numerous supplies and I’ve completed countless pieces.  My desk looks like an artists studio and when I glanced at the amount of work I’d done it shocked me a little. I also found myself last night taking art supplies up to my bed and was drawing in the night. Insomnia due to stopping the Zopiclone probably encouraged this but it just feels a little unusual. 😬 I’m not sure how to think about it or if I need to even be thinking about it? There may be an element of using it as a distraction from the feelings...but it’s just a little....’extra’ OTT. Anyone had any similar experiences? 

 

Also wondering when I would/should consider an increase of reinstatement dose if the extreme waves of crying are continuing. I have to go back to work FT in 2 weeks, it’s a v stressful, demanding job and I’m worrying that in current mode I won’t manage....and I have to. So yeah how much longer do I give it? 

Kind thoughts to all, 

SL

 

 

 

 

[Rosetta]

In my opinion, this is a good sign.  As to whether you change your dose, I leave that to the Mods, (but if I were you I would not, at this point.)  Your brain is changing.  A change in dopamine (amount, reception, who knows?) is probably responsible for the artistic wave.   It is very nice to have something to do when you cannot sleep, isn’t it?

 

That sort of thing always happened to me after my Zoloft dose was raised.  Zoloft isn’t “supposed to work on dopamine.”  At high doses it may do just that.  How these drugs work is not known.  I thought the creativity was a good thing, and my husband felt very uncomfortable about it.  It would have been fine if the Zoloft has been raised only once.

For me, obsessive creativity was a part of WD.  I had dysregulation before I quit Zoloft.  I think it was caused by the cold switch causing dysautonomia and the new medication, Zoloft.  As Zoloft was raised over and over, I did a lot of creative things: art, planning projects around the house, making doll houses for my daughter.  Each time the dose went up, I was on the rollercoaster again.  What goes up must come down.  So, that’s why I would be very cautious about making changes.

 

After I quit Zoloft, creativity was a part of the healing process.  I learned to play violin, for example.  I did this while I had akathisia.  I continued doing all sort of things as my brain toggled between depressed, anhedonic, and maniac symptoms.  You will get used to it.  You have the brain of a child or a teenager.  It’s wonderful, and it’s scary, too.

[ScottishLass]

@Rosetta🙏🏻 thank u. It is exactly that....wonderful and terrifying. Bloody hell 

[ScottishLass]

@Rosetta

“You will get used to it.  You have the brain of a child or a teenager.”

 

Why do you say this? Because of when I started taking medication and you are at that development stage or something else? 

Thanks 

SL

 

 

 

[Rosetta]

No, not because you were a kid when you started, but rather because your brain is changing at the rate a child’s does.  Children can learn faster than we do, develop their talents, etc, because their brains are changing rapidly.  Normally, adults do not have that advantage.  Some retain this characteristic to some extent.  Some remain creative.  
 

A lot of people stop learning easily as they age.  They are less curious, creative, malleable.  Less open and tolerant, too.  
 

Kids also have tingling and pain in their bodies for no apparent reason.  We call them growing pains.  They are emotional.  They get confused and lose focus.  
 

I truly felt like a child at one point in my recovery.  I see a lot of things my daughter is experiencing, and I am realizing that her brain is changing, of course.  She’s not having major physical and emotional issues like I have had since quitting Zoloft, of course, but there are a lot of things she experiences that make me realize that growing new receptors, and synapses — re-wiring the brain — causes odds symptoms including confusion and inability to concentrate, forgetfulness, and tingling or pain here and there.
 

 

 

 

[Gridley]

5 hours ago, Rosetta said:

As to whether you change your dose, I leave that to the Mods, (but if I were you I would not, at this point.) 

I would not increase the dosage. 

[ScottishLass]

@Gridley

Thanks. Why do you think not?

SL

[ScottishLass]

42 minutes ago, Rosetta said:

No, not because you were a kid when you started, but rather because your brain is changing at the rate a child’s does.  Children can learn faster than we do, develop their talents, etc, because their brains are changing rapidly.  Normally, adults do not have that advantage.  Some retain this characteristic to some extent.  Some remain creative.  
 

A lot of people stop learning easily as they age.  They are less curious, creative, malleable.  Less open and tolerant, too.  
 

Kids also have tingling and pain in their bodies for no apparent reason.  We call them growing pains.  They are emotional.  They get confused and lose focus.  
 

I truly felt like a child at one point in my recovery.  I see a lot of things my daughter is experiencing, and I am realizing that her brain is changing, of course.  She’s not having major physical and emotional issues like I have had since quitting Zoloft, of course, but there are a lot of things she experiences that make me realize that growing new receptors, and synapses — re-wiring the brain — causes odds symptoms including confusion and inability to concentrate, forgetfulness, and tingling or pain here and there.
 

 

 

 

@Rosetta ok I get you. Thank u. 

[Altostrata]

How are you sleeping?

 

Going off psychiatric drugs can cause hypomania or mania. You mentioned other symptoms. Typically, what is your symptom pattern throughout the day? Have symptoms gotten better or worse in the last week?

[Gridley]

1 hour ago, ScottishLass said:

@Gridley

Thanks. Why do you think not?

SL

Reinstatement is one of those situations where more is not better and the lowest reinstatement amount that makes withdrawal more tolerable is what we recommend.  From your posts, it seems that the small reinstatement is working, and I would advise you not to "mess with success."  The purpose of reinstatement isn't to eliminate withdrawal symptoms but to make them tolerable.  Too much can overwhelm your system, and the full benefits of reinstatement can take weeks or months to be fully felt.  

[ScottishLass]

2 hours ago, Altostrata said:

How are you sleeping?

 

Going off psychiatric drugs can cause hypomania or mania. You mentioned other symptoms. Typically, what is your symptom pattern throughout the day? Have symptoms gotten better or worse in the last week?

Hi Altostrata,

@Altostrata

Thank you for your reply

My sleep is really terrible and has got progressively worse over the week. Yesterday and previous night approx 2hrs from 6am to about 8am. Tonight, well It’s now just after 2.15am in Scotland and I’ve been attempting sleep since 10pm with no luck. I’m not quite sure what you mean by symptom pattern throughout the day? 

Something like this:-

Terriblesleep, 

Increase in motivation in general,

Particular ‘urgency’ to draw and paint and plan.

Walking outdoors increased +++.

Variable mood throughout day - some euphoric moments, some spontaneous sobbing and despairing feelings and fear.

Restless legs.

Some stiffness and pain  in joints and muscles.

Burning sensation in fingers. Gastrointestinal-upset stomach/Diarrhea, some nausea

Reduced appetite. 

Thank you 

SL

[Altostrata]

What time of day do you take Cymbalta? Do you feel better or worse after you take it? Please keep daily notes of times of day you take your drugs, their dosages, and your symptoms throughout the day. Post 24 hours of notes at a time in this topic, in a simple list format with time of day on the left and notation (symptom or drug and dosage) on the right.

[ScottishLass]

@Rosetta @Gridley @Altostrata And anyone...

 

This feels never ending, symptom after symptom.

 I have awful burning sensations in my fingers and hands which is getting worse. It is at the point where tonight I have taken painkillers.  I also still have restless leg syndrome particularly at night but also a similarfeeling to that in the rest of my body which is very uncomfortable physically and psychologically. Also muscle cramps/spasms and stiffness. Driving me a bit crazy and getting me down. Is this likely AD withdrawal???? 

Or Magnesium or Omega? 

SL

[ScottishLass]

.......and I can’t sleep...still.... 🤯

[Altostrata]

Hello, need to see those daily notes, 24 hours at a time.

[ScottishLass]

@Gridley @Altostrata

48hr Notes

Sat 17th:- 10.30am Meds taken, Duloxetine Reinstatement @ 1 mg, Magnesium (250mg)' Omega Fish Oils (1200mg).

AM symptoms after this - slight burning in fingers, increased motivation for tasks and social stuff (v. Different from being on full dose D previously), general slight elation, over emotional (crying at song on radio), achey body. 

PM afternoon, sore joints and muscles with stiffness, mood ok but again very over reactive to songs, someone's being kind to someone etc etc, Diarrhoea/Stomache upset. Need to draw/paint - be creative.

Night (10pm onwards) - Need to draw/paint, inability to sleep, restless legs +++ and general restless feeling in body. Upset stomach. Approx 2 hrs sleep very early in the morning. Moments of unexplainable fear/anxiety/panic. Burning/tingling  in fingers and hands ++++ 

 

Sunday 18th:-  10.30am Meds taken, Duloxetine Reinstatement @ 1 mg, Magnesium (250mg)' Omega Fish Oils (1200mg).

AM Variable mood - some elation first half of morning, explosive rage second half, feeling quite disconnected following this. Achey body. Slight burning/tingling in hands. Diarrhoea. Less energy today.

PM Urge to paint/draw, sore, achey joints. Tears.

Night Insomnia, Restless legs ++, Burning/tingling painful hands - distressing - took paracetamol though awarre probably not helpful...it wasn't. Approx 2 hrs sleep again from 7.30am to 9.30am. Also went downstairs with raging hunger about 3am (unusual) - had some snacks. Watched film....sobbed. (Ffs). 

Hope this is helpful.

Whilst the increased motivation and sociability and creativity is welcome the other symptoms are scaring me. I am back at work in just under 2 weeks. I don't know that with this present state of mind and sleep etc etc I will manage and I have to. Would you still be holding off an increased in reinstatement? 

Thanks so much for advice, help. I'm struggling. 

SL

 

 

[Altostrata]

What symptoms are scaring you?

 

Which symptoms have gotten better, which worse?

 

Many people find fish oil and magnesium supplements helpful, see

https://survivingantidepressants.org/index.php?/topic/36-king-of-supplements-omega-3-fatty-acids-fish-oil/

https://survivingantidepressants.org/topic/15483-magnesium-natures-calcium-channel-blocker/

 

Magnesium in particular can help restless legs and other muscles to relax. You might try a little bit of one at a time to see how it affects you.

 

Please let us know how you're doing.

[ScottishLass]

Hi @Altostrata

Symptoms scaring me:- anxiety/panic in night, emotionality (as have to go to work) and burning hands (Painful)

Symptoms worse/increased:-burning hands, insomnia, restless legs, diarrhoea and panic feelings.

 

I'm scared at the not knowing 'how long this goes on' or what's next. I feel like there's only so long that one can function or carry this  in the 'normal' world before everything crashes down.  I'm scared that if I end up back on the medication my motivation will disappear again and there will be no point. Feel like catch 22. 

Thanks 

SL

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ScottishLass]

Monday 19th April:- 10.30am Meds taken, Duloxetine Reinstatement @ 1 mg, Magnesium (250mg)' Omega Fish Oils (1200mg).

 

AM: Fatigue - cognitive and physical, low mood, burning sensation - fingers and hands, diarrhoea 

PM - burning sensation in hands, tears and continued fatigue.

Night: - restless legs and same feeling in rest of body - intense but for shorter time tonight, same with burning sensation in hands - intense but for shorter time.  Interrupted sleep BUT.....I slept for approx 5 hours (thank feck!).

 

Tuesday 20th April: 10.30am Meds taken, Duloxetine Reinstatement @ 1 mg, Magnesium (250mg)' Omega Fish Oils (1200mg).

AM: Fatigue, less motivation than recent days, over emotional and tears.

PM: Fatigue, burning sensation in hands. Oh...and now burning/tingling in feet too. ☹️

 

 

[Rosetta]

Thinking of you, Scottish Lass.  It’s very easy to think of the future or even the next hour and feel scared that one will not be able to cope.  I was always surprised how much easier it was once I went out — to the store, to a park, whereever — than I expected it to be.  When I was back at home, I would think, “That wasn’t nearly as bad as I thought it was going to be.”  
 

Before I knew what was happening to my nervous system, I made mistakes in the way I dealt with situations.  I had no idea that my perception was skewed or that my emotions were amplified.  I would tell people off or give them looks — completely out of character for me, but people started to keep their distance.  That was a plus among the many minuses.  
 

Afterward, after I learned about dysautonomia and the nervous system’s reaction to it, I found it very helpful that I knew about withdrawal and the artificial anxiety that it creates.  The much longer period of time that adrenaline is produced by our systems after a scare — that causes problems. It’s hard to get over a fright, and the frights are more numerous as they come about for reasons that would not normally cause a fright.  Getting angry at someone might last hours instead of only a few minutes.  Once you know this, you can reason with yourself — you can think, I might not feel so strongly about this if my system were normal.  My husband would tell me that what happened would have angered him too, but the degree of my anger was over the top.

I started to make a point of being quiet when someone irritated or angered me.  I tried to ignore a lot of things while I was out.  I avoided people that I did not like, or I avoided situations that might get out of hand.  I would wait and think about the interaction instead of reacting to it right away.  I might have been furious, but I kept that to myself and raged about it when I was alone.  This meant that people got away with things, yes, although the thoughtful look I gave them was often much more effective at changing their behaviors than any tongue lashing.
 

Most of the time, no one else is really paying attention to me or how I am acting.  People are so worried about themselves - how they look, what they have, what other people think of them.  They aren’t very aware of what other people are thinking or feeling or how someone’s behavior might have changed except as it relates to them.  So, it’s quite easy to fly under the radar with this syndrome.  
 

You might cry in front of someone or you might think you seem odd or strange compared to how you were before.  Someone might notice and he might not.  Even if he notices, he will think about you for a hour or two until something much more important — something about himself takes precedence.  Then he will forget all about you.
 

If you cry, one thing you can do is laugh it off.  Say something like, “Oh, I’ve been having allergies lately,” if you come out of the bathroom all puffy-faced.  The other person might know you were crying, but will she dare to challenge you?  Then, say, “What’s up with you?”  Shift the focus to the other person.  You may listen with a blank face because you can’t muster any emotion for the answer, but you will have signaled that your emotional state is off limits for conversation.  Most people are happy to avoid talking with you about that anyway.    
 

Whatever you may imagine, the reality is quite likely to be much better than you have dreamed.  It’s also easier to control oneself when one is outside of the home and around people who aren’t one’s loved ones.  So, that is a factor in your favor.  You will cope much better than you expect.

 

I hope you are feeling a bit better.

 

Rosetta

[ScottishLass]

@Rosetta

thanks x

[ScottishLass]

Part of me has had enough. Just wants to go back on the Duloxetine. Increase the dose and **** it. However, another part thinks/knows that would be the beginning of the end as living with absolutely no motivation etc when on the drugs is not living for me. It’s like an impossible fecking conundrum. How did I end up here. 🤯 ☹️

[Altostrata]

@ScottishLass Please post your daily notes in this format. Please include the times you take your drugs and their dosages.

[ScottishLass]

 

i can't post in that format whatever it says in your hyperlink, it won't let me even open up your hyperlink. I'm on on iPad not a computer. I don't have a pc.  Sorry. The effort of even writing all that is a disaster. 

 

**** it all, **** it. Every ******* brain cell of it. **** it all

[ScottishLass]

I’m sorry

[Rosetta]

We all understand your frustration.   
 

Can you type in something like this:

 

6 am woke up
7 took 1 mg, ate

8 can’t sit

12 ate

6 calmer

8 calm

10 lie down 

12 sleep

2 am wake up anxious

5 sleep 

6 am wake up anxious

 

Put in “am” by the first am notation of the day.  Make sure to note any negative physical or emotional symptoms after you take the 1 mg.  What they are, how intense they are, and if they are different from before.

 

Apple makes a wireless keyboard for the iPad.  You need a lot of batteries.  They run out quickly.  Of course, it’s expensive.
 
You can do this.  I know it feels hopeless.  It’s not.  We are here because it’s not.

 

Rosetta