Montesa: Withdrawal or Relapse?

[Montesa]

 

I've been diagnosed with Recurrent Major Depressive Disorder. I was on antidepressants for 30 years. Last year I taper off of 20mg of Lexapro over four months. I was fine for the next four months then crashed into the Deepest Darkest Depression of my life! It's been over 11 months now & I still don't leave the apartment, I have crippling depression, anxiety, crying spells, sleep disturbances, severe anhedonia, negativity, can't exercise, don't want to be around people, light sensitivity, sound sensitivity, suicidal thoughts .... ect. I've had no windows whatsoever.

 

I'm hesitant to reinstate because I've developed numerous Serious Health issues that are linked to long term Psych Med use.  Some of my Health Issues are: Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Diverticulitis, Seborrheic Dermatitis, Sleep Apnea, Metabolic Syndrome, Type 2 Diabetes, Weight Gain, Sleep Disturbances, Restless Leg Syndrome, Hypothyroidism, Impotence, Bloating, and even Cancer.

 

How do I know if I'm in withdrawal or a relapse?

All my symptoms are mood related which indicates a relapse. 

Why was I fine for four months before I crashed?

 

[getofflex]

Hello, and welcome to SA.  We are a peer owned and run forum of people who have been or are getting off of psychiatric drugs.  It sounds like you may have tapered off the Lexapro too fast.  Oftentimes there is a delay in the withdrawal symptoms.  I'm sorry to hear that you have had no windows - that sucks.  Read on, and all this will make more sense. 

 

16 hours ago, Montesa said:

How do I know if I'm in withdrawal or a relapse?

I suspect that at least part of your symptoms are  withdrawal symptoms, based on your drug history, and a fast taper off Lexapro.  This link could help you determine for yourself if you are having a relapse. 

 

Withdrawal, Relapse, or Something Else

 

Can you please give us specific information about your drug history for all drugs you are on and have been on, especially for the past 18-24 months?  It would be especially helpful to have the details of your drugs in a concise list (no symptoms), only specific dates (as best you can say for example early March if you don't recall the day) and dosages of each medication decrease or increase.  Please read the link below for instructions.  This will allow us to give you the best guidance.  

 

How to List Drug History in Signature

 

Here is some information about how these drugs actually work.  

 

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

This helps you understand what withdrawal syndrome is: 

 

What is Withdrawal Syndrome?

 

Also, as we are recovering, we suggest keeping things slow, simple, and stable. 

 

Keep it Simple, Slow, and Stable

 

Here are some techniques to cope with symptoms: 

 

Non Drug Ways to Cope with Withdrawal Symptoms

 

 

We don't suggest many supplements, but 2 that many of us find helpful are magnesium and omega-3 fish oil. Here are the links for info about those. It is suggested to add one at a time, and start with a low dose to see how it affects you. 

 

Magnesium

 

Omega 3 Fish Oil

 

You could consider a very small reinstatement, which may help to alleviate the worst of your symptoms.  Going back on a small dose of your drug, or increasing your dose, which we call reinstatement, is best done very carefully.  This is temporary, and after stabilizing you would then taper gradually off of this.  There is some risk involved, which is why we suggest a very low dose at first, to see how your system handles it. If you decide to try this, I would suggest 1 mg to start out.  Here is some information about reinstatement.  

 

About Reinstating and Stabilizing to Reduce Withdrawal Symptoms

 

I would suggest using liquid Lexapro.  It is very easy to dose by any amount you need with a syringe.   Check and see if it is available in Canada.  Also, check and see how concentrated it is.  Here in the USA, liquid Lexapro 1 milliliter of the liquid contains 1 milligram of Lexapro.  It it's different in Canada, we will have to do some calculations to figure out your dose.  Or you can make your own liquid as instructed in the following link.

 

Tapering and Dosing Lexapro

 

I've given you quite a bit of information here.  Please read through it, and mull it over, and we will take it from there. In the meantime, take care of yourself, and take heart.  We in this forum have been through this, and we understand first hand the pain and discomfort you are going through.  Please know that the brain is amazing in it's healing abilities.  It takes time, but healing can and will happen.  My heart aches for you. I'm praying that you will get a window very soon, and start to feel better. 

Edited April 29, 2021 by getofflex

[Montesa]

Thanks so much for your input!

 

You said you suspect at least some of my symptoms are withdrawal. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts as to what else, besides withdrawal, might be in play here?

In a nutshell, I was 30 years on different antidepressants & I tapered off in four months! I felt fine after my taper until four months later when I CRASHED last July, 2020.

Ten months ago I recall having Severe Intermittent stomach pain as well as bad diarrhea. These issues have improved. Also, I used to have uncontrollable anger & rage which also has lessened. I remember I had a feeling of bands around my chest when I was feeling anxious, but that also has disappeared. I'm also sleeping better than I was many months ago. I can be around people a bit now.

 

I'm still struggling hard with crippling deep dark depression, anhedonia, and fowl NEGATIVE mood. My thoughts are self focused. I cannot talk to anyone without making the conversation be about myself and being negative. I used to work part time, workout, go for walks, play guitar, meditate & read. I can't for the life of me, force myself to do any of those things now. I tried a few times going for walks, but I did not enjoy it. 

 

 I dread being awake because I don't know what to do with myself. I have ZERO interests or motivation for anything. I just pass my awake hours watching Youtube videos. I can't even force myself to pick up a book.  I have a lot of constant intrusive repetitive thoughts, usually around the past. My interpersonal skills & interaction around people is horrible & just end up driving them away. I have my windows blocked to keep any sunlight out. I wear ear plugs day and night because any sound whatsoever is very distressing. Everyone has walked out of my life except one long term friend.

I've considered reinstating at a small dose, but I'm too afraid of any problems it might cause. My friend says I should go back on an antidepressant because of how much they see me suffer. 

 

Am I doing the right thing by continuing to ride this thing out? 

Does this still sound like Withdrawal?

[getofflex]

15 hours ago, Montesa said:

I'm wondering if you have any thoughts as to what else, besides withdrawal, might be in play here?

I'm sorry, I can't tell you for sure what else is going in here.  What I can tell you, is that fast tapering off 20 mg of Lexapro is pretty tough on the nervous system, and so I suspect the majority of your symptoms are from this.  Lexapro is 2 - 4 times more powerful than other SSRI's.  Not to mention having been on various AD's in the past may have sensitized your nervous system.  Each time we go on and off psych meds or mind altering drugs, it often becomes harder and harder to withdraw.  

 

Kindling, Hypersensitivity

 

15 hours ago, Montesa said:

Ten months ago I recall having Severe Intermittent stomach pain as well as bad diarrhea. These issues have improved. Also, I used to have uncontrollable anger & rage which also has lessened. I remember I had a feeling of bands around my chest when I was feeling anxious, but that also has disappeared. I'm also sleeping better than I was many months ago. I can be around people a bit now.

This is excellent!  It shows that you are healing.  You have been off the Lexapro for over a year now, so it's a toss up as to whether a reinstatement would help or not.  If it were me, I would consider talking to a therapist that does CBT, which is cognitive behavior therapy.  I say that based on this: 

15 hours ago, Montesa said:

My thoughts are self focused. I cannot talk to anyone without making the conversation be about myself and being negative.

CBT therapy can really help turn negative thinking around.  Here is a link to a self directed CBT course.  

 

CBT Course:  An Introductory Self-Help Course in Cognitive Behaviour Therapy

15 hours ago, Montesa said:

Am I doing the right thing by continuing to ride this thing out? 

Does this still sound like Withdrawal?

Only you can decide this, but I personally think it is better to ride it out.  

 

Yes, to me it sounds like mostly withdrawal.  However, non drug coping skills, such as CBT, can really help us cope with withdrawal.  

[Montesa]

Thanks again for you Great Feedback!

i've thought about doing CBT, but honestly i suffer from such SEVERE Anhedonia I know I wouldn't stick with it. I can't force myself or motivate myself to do ANYTHING! This lack of motivation and interests has been NON STOP since last July, I really believe this is the new me.

[Montesa]

How come I have only one person reply to my post?

[Go2zero]

On 4/29/2021 at 7:34 AM, Montesa said:

Why was I fine for four months before I crashed?

 

This is quite often seen after stopping Lexapro (also with other SSRI's). I have had this experience 3 times when stopping Lexapro (escitalopram) after too fast tapering. And even after bridging to Prozac.

 

Most doctors will say it is relapse. They also convinced me twice on that, so I started the Lexapro again (on a normal dose, so not on a light reinstatement which is sometimes advised on SA to stabilize WD) .

 

This new starting of Lexapro on a normal dosis, just makes things more worse for most people's. The more often you start and stop taking the meds, the more upset our CNS get. And WD effect may become worse and worse after doing this...

 

In my case I can say for sure now that the WD effects that started 3 months after stopping Lexapro was WD and not relapse. It is hard to say for me what is the case for you. But WD staring 3-4 months after stopping is seen quite often when it is WD.

[Yesyes123]

On 4/29/2021 at 2:34 AM, Montesa said:

Why was I fine for four months before I crashed?

 

It is a very common thing to be fine for a period of time without the drug - some, like me, will even go manic in that period, which is kinda like being high on meth constantly (at least for me). 

 

After it passes, you fall into hell.

 

You will definitely recover though. I have been through literal hell because of escitalopram and I'm currently doing much better after reinstatement.

I'm now slowly tapering off, following the guidelines and advice on this website.

Please listen to what the moderators say here as they really know what they're doing.

If they say something that goes against what your doctor says, please believe the moderators here.

They have decades of real life experience with these drugs and they literally saved my life.

 

Peace and healing

[HopeD]

I was also feeling great after doctor cut me off Sertaline in a very short period of time. I was still on Mirtazapine.I was kind of manic for about 5 months, after that I felt into depression, anxiety and OCD circle, like I have never experienced in my life. Doctors put me back on Sertaline and other drugs. Nothing helped. 

I’m in a very bad place now. Tappering Mirtazapine, my last drug. I never really stabilised. After I took antibiotics more than two weeks ago it’s another level of hell. 
I try to ride it out as I have no other choice. No technique is helping. I push myself to do some things every day, because every time I felt better was when I was active. It is hard as I have anhedonia as well. But some windows that I had during this two years, even though they were short are giving me hope that my brain is still capable of healing. Some symptoms has improved. I don’t have such a brain fog, my cognitive skills are better, DP/DR is almost gone. 
As you can see I also talk a lot about myself 🤣
Our battle is not a sprint it’s a marathon. 
Hope that you can ride it out and make the right decision about reinstatement. Try to force yourself to do anything during the day. Maybe it will bring some relief, maybe not, but at least you are trying to do something. Talk about what’s going on in your head, even though it’s hard to find someone who can understand. It’s not easy, because we sometimes do not understand how we feel, but it’s very helpful to have someone to open your heart to. Try to go out even if you don’t like it (I also don’t like it but I still do it). Eat healthy as possible and drink a lot of water. And be patient and gentle to yourself.

Don’t believe everything that your brain is telling you. Don’t compare yourself to others in WD.

Those are the things I have learned during my WD journey. 

[Montesa]

16 hours ago, Go2zero said:

 

This is quite often seen after stopping Lexapro (also with other SSRI's). I have had this experience 3 times when stopping Lexapro (escitalopram) after too fast tapering. And even after bridging to Prozac.

 

Most doctors will say it is relapse. They also convinced me twice on that, so I started the Lexapro again (on a normal dose, so not on a light reinstatement which is sometimes advised on SA to stabilize WD) .

 

This new starting of Lexapro on a normal dosis, just makes things more worse for most people's. The more often you start and stop taking the meds, the more upset our CNS get. And WD effect may become worse and worse after doing this...

 

In my case I can say for sure now that the WD effects that started 3 months after stopping Lexapro was WD and not relapse. It is hard to say for me what is the case for you. But WD staring 3-4 months after stopping is seen quite often when it is WD.

Thanks for your feedback!

I know there is no exact answer to this question but it's important to know - how long till I heal? Just throw some numbers around if you have to. This question is SO IMPORTANT because I don't have a lot time left in my life. It might be better to just reinstate! Living like this is not "living". I stay in bed 18 hours a day and I'm full of negativity, fear, anger, & intrusive thoughts.  I have ZERO interests in ANYTHING! I cannot practically or emotionally embark on a 5 - 10 year healing plan. 

[Montesa]

16 hours ago, Yesyes123 said:

 

It is a very common thing to be fine for a period of time without the drug - some, like me, will even go manic in that period, which is kinda like being high on meth constantly (at least for me). 

 

After it passes, you fall into hell.

 

You will definitely recover though. I have been through literal hell because of escitalopram and I'm currently doing much better after reinstatement.

I'm now slowly tapering off, following the guidelines and advice on this website.

Please listen to what the moderators say here as they really know what they're doing.

If they say something that goes against what your doctor says, please believe the moderators here.

They have decades of real life experience with these drugs and they literally saved my life.

 

Peace and healing

Approximately how long does recovery take? I know there is no exact answer, but it's the most important question to ask. I personally, don't have much time left. I cannot afford a 5 - 10 year healing plan. I could not do it practically or emotionally. It's been 10 months now and there has been Zero improvement! Some people have told me to reinstate while others say to ride it out! Why the difference of opinions? I've been off for 13 months. Does the length of time a person is off the drug come into play when considering reinstatement?

[Montesa]

11 hours ago, HopeD said:

I was also feeling great after doctor cut me off Sertaline in a very short period of time. I was still on Mirtazapine.I was kind of manic for about 5 months, after that I felt into depression, anxiety and OCD circle, like I have never experienced in my life. Doctors put me back on Sertaline and other drugs. Nothing helped. 

I’m in a very bad place now. Tappering Mirtazapine, my last drug. I never really stabilised. After I took antibiotics more than two weeks ago it’s another level of hell. 
I try to ride it out as I have no other choice. No technique is helping. I push myself to do some things every day, because every time I felt better was when I was active. It is hard as I have anhedonia as well. But some windows that I had during this two years, even though they were short are giving me hope that my brain is still capable of healing. Some symptoms has improved. I don’t have such a brain fog, my cognitive skills are better, DP/DR is almost gone. 
As you can see I also talk a lot about myself 🤣
Our battle is not a sprint it’s a marathon. 
Hope that you can ride it out and make the right decision about reinstatement. Try to force yourself to do anything during the day. Maybe it will bring some relief, maybe not, but at least you are trying to do something. Talk about what’s going on in your head, even though it’s hard to find someone who can understand. It’s not easy, because we sometimes do not understand how we feel, but it’s very helpful to have someone to open your heart to. Try to go out even if you don’t like it (I also don’t like it but I still do it). Eat healthy as possible and drink a lot of water. And be patient and gentle to yourself.

Don’t believe everything that your brain is telling you. Don’t compare yourself to others in WD.

Those are the things I have learned during my WD journey. 

Thanks so much for your valuable feedback. 

I need some idea how long it will take for me to heal. Of course nobody can say exactly, but it is by far the most important question. I don't have a lot of time left in my life to embrace a 5 - 10 healing plan. It would kill me both emotionally and practically. Like yourself I have Severe Anhedonia. I have tried forcing myself to do things, but it does not work. I makes me feel worse. I also, can't stop talking about my problem. Hence, EVERYBODY has walked out of my life.

Some people say to reinstate while others say to ride it out? I've been off the drug now for 13 months, but have noticed Zero improvement. How does the length of time I'm off the drug affect whether or not to reinstate?

Do you find you mood is always, resentful, bitter, negative, angry, self focused?

Mine certainly is .....

[Montesa]

Does anyone know if increased thirst is part of an antidepressant withdrawal symptom?

[Go2zero]

I notice that I am having a dry mouth often when I am in withdrawal. So then I also drink more. I also sweat sometime extreme dring WD. So then I lose water also that needs replaced again. So I guess the answer to your question is yes.

[Yesyes123]

@Montesa,

 

Welcome and we're happy you found your way here.

 

It is very important to know that each person's Central Nervous System and brain are different and unique. Some people will even be able to take these drugs for years and CT without major problems.

 

Since everyone's different, the practices recommended here are guidelines for the safest approaches to working with these drugs (except for a few things which are universal, like never CT, never skip doses, never taper too fast etc...)

 

That being said, you absolutely do not need to make a 5-10 year recovery plan. You might find yourself feeling much, much better in a few months. Only time can tell.

 

Have you taken a look at the supplement recommendations here at SA? I personally find 2000mg daily fish oil capsules + 4 to 8 organic eggs daily + eating fish on a weekly basis to be very helpful with withdrawal symptoms, and those are easy to find. 

 

I am not a moderator, but if I were you, not seeing any improvement after being off the drug for so long, I would try reinstating a small dose.

 

Why don't you try reinstating 0.5mg? Can you measure that dose? 

 

It only makes it worse thinking that it will take 5 years to heal or that kind of thinking... throw out the calendar and listen to your body.

 

You are in the best possible place for healing

 

Peace

 

 

[Go2zero]

5 hours ago, Montesa said:

Approximately how long does recovery take? I know there is no exact answer, but it's the most important question to ask. I personally, don't have much time left. I cannot afford a 5 - 10 year healing plan. I could not do it practically or emotionally. It's been 10 months now and there has been Zero improvement! Some people have told me to reinstate while others say to ride it out! Why the difference of opinions? I've been off for 13 months. Does the length of time a person is off the drug come into play when considering reinstatement?

No one can say how the healing process will take place and how long it may take. We all react different.

 

To give some advice, please tell how you felt when you were taking the drugs.

 

Also tell why you decided to stop! These answers may help to give some advice.

 

[getofflex]

14 hours ago, Montesa said:

Approximately how long does recovery take?

It is impossible to say, as everyone's nervous system and life circumstances and drug history is different.  This thread talks about the factors that affect this: 

 

How Long is Withdrawal Going to Take

[Montesa]

19 hours ago, Go2zero said:

No one can say how the healing process will take place and how long it may take. We all react different.

 

To give some advice, please tell how you felt when you were taking the drugs.

 

Also tell why you decided to stop! These answers may help to give some advice.

 

All I remember over the last 30 years of taking the antidepressants was that I would fall in and out of depression. I probably had over 12 Major Depressive Episodes during that time, however my memory is just a blur. I would say my world was always Negative & Grey. Very Unfulfilled & Disillusioning!. I had a few decent years where I was functioning better, between 2017 - 2020. I returned to work part time, started exercising, and had a few hobbies.  I thought this might be a good time to come off the antidepressant. My doctor agreed. I had also developed a dozen or so Serious Medical Issues I felt were due to long term Psych med use. Issues such as: Weight Gain, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Diverticulitis, Seborrheic Dermatitis, Sleep Apnea, Type 2 Diabetes, Mood Shifts, Sleep Disturbances, Restless Leg Syndrome, Hypothyroidism, Impotence, Bloating, Metabolic Syndrome, and Cancer (Urinary Bladder & Prostate). 

 

I weaned off too fast in 2020. My taper was over four months. I was functioning ok for another four before I fell into the Worst Depression Imaginable. I know this never talked about on SA, but people tend to forget why they were originally medicated in the first place. These underlying conditions do not magically disappear just because one decides to taper off their medication. I know there are some people who need to be medicated for life, and I believe I'm one of them. 

[Yesyes123]

1 hour ago, Montesa said:

These underlying conditions do not magically disappear just because one decides to taper off their medication. I know there are some people who need to be medicated for life, and I believe I'm one of them. 

 

This sounds to me like you are referring to some sort of "chemical imbalance" in your brain that causes those issues you experienced and continue to experience.

 

Please believe that there is no such thing. Chemical imbalance is a long disproved myth.

 

 

Whether or not some people "need to be medicated for life" is debatable - I personally think no one NEEDS to be medicated for life; that being said, some people will benefit from their medication, or at least will deeply believe that the drug is what's helping them.

[Montesa]

7 minutes ago, Yesyes123 said:

 

This sounds to me like you are referring to some sort of "chemical imbalance" in your brain that causes those issues you experienced and continue to experience.

 

Please believe that there is no such thing. Chemical imbalance is a long disproved myth.

 

 

Whether or not some people "need to be medicated for life" is debatable - I personally think no one NEEDS to be medicated for life; that being said, some people will benefit from their medication, or at least will deeply believe that the drug is what's helping them.

I've spent 32 years unmedicated and 31 years medicated. I can DEFINITELY say I would MUCH rather be medicated! I am completely Dysfunctional and Suicidal off meds. I also believe in the chemical imbalance theory. Not in the way Prescribers used to push it though.

 

For example: our cognition works by chemicals and electrical impulses. When I am on meds, I become functional, Hence, the chemical and electrical impulses in my brain are better balanced. Without meds, I become dysfunctional, hence, the chemicals and electrical impulses in my brain do not work optimally. Quite clearly, this shows the medication benefits the proper functioning of the chemical electrical circuitry. 

 

In a nutshell there are clearly people who need to be medicated for life, just as there are some who were misdiagnosed, and will improve without meds. Medication is generally Very Helpful Short term. It can be also very damaging Long Term. But it by far the most practical solution we have for dealing with the mass mental illness of today. 

 

Definitely, if you can resolve your issues without meds, then you are lucky!

However, many cannot....

[Yesyes123]

3 minutes ago, Montesa said:

I've spent 32 years unmedicated and 31 years medicated. I can DEFINITELY say I would MUCH rather be medicated! I am completely Dysfunctional and Suicidal off meds.

 

I'm sorry if I sound unpleasant - I'm just trying to understand this better. Are you saying you were constatly dysfunctional and suicidal during those 32 years off meds?

[Yesyes123]

14 minutes ago, Montesa said:

But it by far the most practical solution we have for dealing with the mass mental illness of today. 

 

I'm sorry and I don't mean to start an argument or anything here, but I think you are saying things that go completely against what most of us believe (and have all sorts of evidence for) here in this website...

 

Are you saying the most practical solution for mental illness in the 21st century is to drug everyone? 

That is exactly what the decades of marketing from the almigthy pharmaceutical companies have aimed to achieve, and they did achieve it. Everyone's on drugs and said companies have multi-billionaire yearly profits.

 

I could not disagree more with your statement quoted above. Please check the countless  reports of people fighting for their lives here on the Introductions topic. That's what these drugs are doing to people... And please consider the vast majority of psych drug users never make it to this website. Imagine what is going on out there that we will never know about? How many misdiagnosed people who were only suffering from psych drug withdrawal or adverse reactions?

 

I mean, look at what it's done to you! And you still say they are by far the most practical way to treat mental illness?? I honestly don't understand.

Even on the short term... these drugs are proven to be more likely to cause dependence and sexual problems than to help treat depression.

On 4/29/2021 at 2:34 AM, Montesa said:

I've developed numerous Serious Health issues that are linked to long term Psych Med use.  Some of my Health Issues are: Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Diverticulitis, Seborrheic Dermatitis, Sleep Apnea, Metabolic Syndrome, Type 2 Diabetes, Weight Gain, Sleep Disturbances, Restless Leg Syndrome, Hypothyroidism, Impotence, Bloating, and even Cancer.

 

I was nearly killed by psych drugs so this is a delicate topic for me...

 

Once again, I'm sorry if this is unpleasant to you... but please consider what I'm saying!

 

Peace and healing

[Yesyes123]

26 minutes ago, Montesa said:

When I am on meds, I become functional, Hence, the chemical and electrical impulses in my brain are better balanced. Without meds, I become dysfunctional, hence, the chemicals and electrical impulses in my brain do not work optimally.

I've seen @brassmonkey (who is literally one of the biggest authorities in the world in these matters) say that these drugs don't cure anything - they only put you in a different state of mind.

 

In my personal view, you like and work better on the state of mind that these drugs put you into...

That does not mean anything is being "rectified" or "balanced" - it's just different...

 

It's important to make this clear because the idea that these drugs "correct" or "balance" something is what leads so many people to stay on them long term... and that is simply a myth.

 

I recommend the book "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker in case you want to learn more about this!

 

Once again, I am here to help you and not contradict you or be unpleasant. Sorry if I'm doing the latter.

 

Peace and healing

[Montesa]

1 hour ago, Yesyes123 said:

 

I'm sorry if I sound unpleasant - I'm just trying to understand this better. Are you saying you were constatly dysfunctional and suicidal during those 32 years off meds?

I'm saying on the meds I'm MUCH more functional and suicidal thoughts are rare. Of course that doesn't mean meds can stop me from falling into severe depression, but it does mean the depressive episodes can be shorter and less damaging.

 

You don't sound unpleasant at all!

I greatly appreciate your feedback!

[Montesa]

1 hour ago, Yesyes123 said:

I've seen @brassmonkey (who is literally one of the biggest authorities in the world in these matters) say that these drugs don't cure anything - they only put you in a different state of mind.

 

In my personal view, you like and work better on the state of mind that these drugs put you into...

That does not mean anything is being "rectified" or "balanced" - it's just different...

 

It's important to make this clear because the idea that these drugs "correct" or "balance" something is what leads so many people to stay on them long term... and that is simply a myth.

 

I recommend the book "Anatomy of an Epidemic" by Robert Whitaker in case you want to learn more about this!

 

Once again, I am here to help you and not contradict you or be unpleasant. Sorry if I'm doing the latter.

 

Peace and healing

I hear what you are saying!

I've read Robert Whitaker's book and Many others.

 

Of course meds don't cure things, but they can act as ballast while healing can take place.

 

There is a common misconception out there that there is always an underlying root cause for depression. 

Nothing could be further from the truth! Depression can hit out of the Blue! I have been hit by severe bouts of depression when things have been going good for years! Conversely, certain things can trigger an episode. Google "does there always have to be a reason for depression" and you will see there certainly does not always have to be a reason for depression to hit.

 

Genetics is a HUGE Factor in depression, but not often talked about. I come from two parents who were severely depressed, and all four kids were all affected the same. Coincidence? I DON"T THINK SO!

Of course coming from a depressed upbringing is also a major factor. Both nature and nurture are likely involved in most cases.

 

There are SO Many factors involved in depression, and everyone experiences it different, so it makes it hard to talk about intelligently. For example; 

 

Someone who has had a decent life but has gone through a divorce, job loss, death ... ect. will have an easily identifiable "root" cause for their depression. With time and guidance, maybe medication, such a person will likely return to their default setting and continue to live a decent life. In this case there are few factors and treatments are usually going to be successful. In this case one could argue the persons depression is cured.

 

Conversely, someone who experiences depression without any specific "root" cause is likely to have a genetic predisposition to the illness. Such a person is not going to have a healthy baseline they can default back to and will likely live an emotionally compromised life. Successful treatment is much more difficult because the causal factors are not evident, and therefore cannot be easily addressed. We may talk about "treating" the person instead of "curing" them.

 

Yet again, someone who had a crappy upbringing and lived a crappy life, is going have a multitude of compounding factors and is unlikely to have much success with any sort of treatment. Again, "Treating" the person is talked about verses "Curing" them. In the last two examples being put in a altered state of mind is desirable to suffering ongoing emotional pain. These are examples of how medication is helpful. 

 

I know I might come across as negative, but the reality is that efficacy of treatment is dependant on the driving forces of depression.

 

When I talk about Antidepressants restoring "balance' to one's cognition, it is the same as saying they can restore "harmony". Balance and harmony are two sides of the same coin. Both are about our relationship to who we are and what is most important to us.

In Psychiatry, unlike conventional medicine, phenomena can not be measured. So it's impossible to say there is, or isn't, chemicals that are being balanced. Hence, the chemical imbalance theory cannot be proven, but it cannot be disproven either.

 

People often talk about feeling a "restoration of balance or harmony" in their emotional state after taking medication. Such statements are completely vaid! I feel my emotional state has been rectified when I take medication.

Something does not have to be proven to be talked about in a meaningful way.

 

 

[DataGuy]

Hi @Montesa,

 

I agree with you that if these medications are to have any role, it would likely be in the short term. If they are going to be prescribed long term - as they were to you and many other people - they should be tested in trials of that length to see if they are making people better off. Currently most of the trials in existence only lasted around 2 or 3 months, so hard to say whether the drugs continue to work beyond that. It could be that there is not much benefit to taking them long term other than avoiding withdrawal, as researchers on other psychotropics have found (see David Juurlink's work on opioids). 

 

Also, I think if there is a clear group of people who these drugs work for (people with "biological" depression), it would be easy for drug companies to identify people like this, with a history of depression in their family, and enter them into trials. If they did this, it would presumably make the drugs look much better relative to placebo. But it seems like they haven't been able to identify groups like this, since there were many trials they produced which had great difficulty showing antidepressants were better than placebo. In the famous Cipriani meta-analysis, antidepressants overall were found to beat placebo on the Hamilton Depression Scale by around 2 points (on a 52 point scale), with around 80% of improvement accounted for by placebo or other factors. For me it is hard to see that "biological" depression that happens for no reason exists or is easily identifiable. It's quite possible, but if drug companies cannot figure it out, I would be skeptical. It's not like they have a lack of motivation. They could easily make billions more dollars if they could show these drugs work well for a certain group of people. 

[Fallensoul]

15 hours ago, Montesa said:

I know this never talked about on SA, but people tend to forget why they were originally medicated in the first place. These underlying conditions do not magically disappear just because one decides to taper off their medication. I know there are some people who need to be medicated for life, and I believe I'm one of them. 

This is keeping me busy and wondering too!
 

In my case I was never depressed, or anxious, but had build up a lot of stress, tension and was burnt out (1997). My whole body was tensed and it sucked all the energy away.
My guess is it was a combination of years of houseparty's/stepping out with sometimes use of coke/speed in the weekends, lots of alcohol etc. and maybe some genetic factors.
But I never was like this before my whole life (1967-1996) I wa completely heathy very good at sports, and mental issues where unknown to me. (allthough I have a bit of ADHD, but it never bordered me)

I recovered (1998)with paroxetine and had 18 really fantastic years.
But what happened when it poopout was ten times worse, then the reason I went on meds.

I hope my underlying issues have cleared when I'm finally of meds.

I also believe some need medication, but on the other hand,.....body's adapt (downregulation receptors etc.) and the chance it work for ever or make things worse on the long term?
Stay strong!

[Altostrata]

Hello, Montesa.

 

On 4/30/2021 at 11:37 PM, Montesa said:

Ten months ago I recall having Severe Intermittent stomach pain as well as bad diarrhea. These issues have improved. Also, I used to have uncontrollable anger & rage which also has lessened. I remember I had a feeling of bands around my chest when I was feeling anxious, but that also has disappeared. I'm also sleeping better than I was many months ago. I can be around people a bit now.

 

This improvement indicates that some of your withdrawal symptoms have slowly faded away, which is what we expect. "Relapse" does not include those symptoms, nor does it behave like that.

 

Overall, when people recover from withdrawal syndrome, improvement is very slow and frustrating, with lots of setbacks.

 

See The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Neuro-emotions

 

On 4/30/2021 at 11:37 PM, Montesa said:

I'm still struggling hard with crippling deep dark depression, anhedonia, and fowl NEGATIVE mood. My thoughts are self focused. I cannot talk to anyone without making the conversation be about myself and being negative. I used to work part time, workout, go for walks, play guitar, meditate & read. I can't for the life of me, force myself to do any of those things now. I tried a few times going for walks, but I did not enjoy it. 

 

 I dread being awake because I don't know what to do with myself. I have ZERO interests or motivation for anything. I just pass my awake hours watching Youtube videos.

 

Emotional anesthesia and demotivation is quite common after going off antidepressants. People find it very distressing and difficult to cope with. You will need to be patient and do what you can to support your nervous system in repairing itself, such as getting at least a half-hour of gentle exercise each day, eating fresh fruits and vegetables, reducing sugar and caffeine (the later can disturb your sleep). 

 

You are also doing nothing but brooding, which does not improve any kind of mood. Changing the channel is under your control. Suggest you find a reason to get up and get out, such as getting fresh food every day or taking care of a pet, maybe volunteer at the local animal shelter.

 

You might try these non-drug techniques:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals 

 

Shame, guilt, regret, and self-criticism

 

Health anxiety, hypochondria, and obsession with symptoms

 

16 hours ago, Montesa said:

All I remember over the last 30 years of taking the antidepressants was that I would fall in and out of depression. I probably had over 12 Major Depressive Episodes during that time, however my memory is just a blur. I would say my world was always Negative & Grey. 

 

This pattern of repeated relapse seems odd if antidepressants do what you think they do. Did these episodes occur after you skipped a dose or two, or were they after a drug switch? If so, what you had was withdrawal symptoms, not "relapse".

 

It's well known that after a while, an antidepressant will fail to work anymore. But "poop-out" is not a return of your illness, it's when the antidepressant has simply worn out its welcome in your nervous system. Your nervous system is so used to it, it doesn't have any effect. This is a normal consequence of taking a psychotropic every day. 

 

It's very possible taking antidepressants for so long is responsible for many of your health problems, particularly diabetes and foggy brain. They are very well known for contributing to diabetes and weight gain.

 

Since your sleep and other symptoms have improved, I wouldn't recommend attempting a reinstatement to reduce withdrawal symptoms, it might upset your system more.

 

If you believe you truly need antidepressants for the rest of your life and you don't have time to allow your nervous system to recover from withdrawal syndrome, I don't understand what you want from us here. This is a site for going off drugs. You are free to take psychiatric drugs again, all you have to do is ask any passing doctor, they'll be happy to write you a prescription and ignore the adverse consequences.

[Montesa]

5 hours ago, Altostrata said:

Hello, Montesa.

 

 

This improvement indicates that some of your withdrawal symptoms have slowly faded away, which is what we expect. "Relapse" does not include those symptoms, nor does it behave like that.

 

Overall, when people recover from withdrawal syndrome, improvement is very slow and frustrating, with lots of setbacks.

 

See The Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Neuro-emotions

 

 

Emotional anesthesia and demotivation is quite common after going off antidepressants. People find it very distressing and difficult to cope with. You will need to be patient and do what you can to support your nervous system in repairing itself, such as getting at least a half-hour of gentle exercise each day, eating fresh fruits and vegetables, reducing sugar and caffeine (the later can disturb your sleep). 

 

You are also doing nothing but brooding, which does not improve any kind of mood. Changing the channel is under your control. Suggest you find a reason to get up and get out, such as getting fresh food every day or taking care of a pet, maybe volunteer at the local animal shelter.

 

You might try these non-drug techniques:

 

Non-drug techniques to cope with emotional symptoms

 

Easing your way into meditation for a stressed-out nervous system

 

Music for self-care: calms hyperalertness, anxiety, aids relaxation and sleep

 

Ways to cope with daily anxiety

 

Dealing With Emotional Spirals 

 

Shame, guilt, regret, and self-criticism

 

Health anxiety, hypochondria, and obsession with symptoms

 

 

This pattern of repeated relapse seems odd if antidepressants do what you think they do. Did these episodes occur after you skipped a dose or two, or were they after a drug switch? If so, what you had was withdrawal symptoms, not "relapse".

 

It's well known that after a while, an antidepressant will fail to work anymore. But "poop-out" is not a return of your illness, it's when the antidepressant has simply worn out its welcome in your nervous system. Your nervous system is so used to it, it doesn't have any effect. This is a normal consequence of taking a psychotropic every day. 

 

It's very possible taking antidepressants for so long is responsible for many of your health problems, particularly diabetes and foggy brain. They are very well known for contributing to diabetes and weight gain.

 

Since your sleep and other symptoms have improved, I wouldn't recommend attempting a reinstatement to reduce withdrawal symptoms, it might upset your system more.

 

If you believe you truly need antidepressants for the rest of your life and you don't have time to allow your nervous system to recover from withdrawal syndrome, I don't understand what you want from us here. This is a site for going off drugs. You are free to take psychiatric drugs again, all you have to do is ask any passing doctor, they'll be happy to write you a prescription and ignore the adverse consequences.

Not all people experience adverse consequences, in fact, more people are happy with the results of their medication than those who are not!

Not all prescribers ignore the patients concerns.

There needs to be some Balance on this site.......

[Altostrata]

Please do go back to your prescriber if you feel that's in your best interest. We're not going to argue with you about it.

[Montesa]

18 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Please do go back to your prescriber if you feel that's in your best interest. We're not going to argue with you about it.

10 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

Please do go back to your prescriber if you feel that's in your best interest. We're not going to argue with you about it.

 

 

Good!

I did not come here to argue with anyone either!

I joined the site as someone who tapered of my antidepressant and is struggling.

My intention is to talk to others and gather information.

With that information I will make a decision

Please refrain from snarky, biased comments or giving me advice

 

[Montesa]

23 hours ago, Yesyes123 said:

 

I'm sorry and I don't mean to start an argument or anything here, but I think you are saying things that go completely against what most of us believe (and have all sorts of evidence for) here in this website...

 

Are you saying the most practical solution for mental illness in the 21st century is to drug everyone? 

That is exactly what the decades of marketing from the almigthy pharmaceutical companies have aimed to achieve, and they did achieve it. Everyone's on drugs and said companies have multi-billionaire yearly profits.

 

I could not disagree more with your statement quoted above. Please check the countless  reports of people fighting for their lives here on the Introductions topic. That's what these drugs are doing to people... And please consider the vast majority of psych drug users never make it to this website. Imagine what is going on out there that we will never know about? How many misdiagnosed people who were only suffering from psych drug withdrawal or adverse reactions?

 

I mean, look at what it's done to you! And you still say they are by far the most practical way to treat mental illness?? I honestly don't understand.

Even on the short term... these drugs are proven to be more likely to cause dependence and sexual problems than to help treat depression.

 

I was nearly killed by psych drugs so this is a delicate topic for me...

 

Once again, I'm sorry if this is unpleasant to you... but please consider what I'm saying!

 

Peace and healing

I Totally get what you are saying, and I completely understand your concerns. 

 

What I was trying to say is that, it's all well and fine to look to "alternative" methods of treating mental illness. In fact that should be one's first approach. If you can be treated, or can be healed without medications, then that is the Right Way to Go! Unfortunately, most people with mental illnesses cannot be successfully treated by "Alternative" treatments. Many such treatments offer incremental help to people who may suffer from mild to moderate depression, but such treatments cannot even make a DENT in Severe Cases. Furthermore they generally don't last. This is why they are still "Alternative" and not "Mainstream" approaches.

 

Psych drugs can be very helpful in the short term, and can sometimes cause damage in the long term. However, there are hundreds of Millions of people who are happily married to their medications, and feel they benefit from them. The people on this site represent only a tiny fraction of all the people out there who are on, or are withdrawing from, medications. Millions have nothing but good to say about their medication treatment.

 

It's true medications will not solve any underlying issues. But not everyone has underlying issues to solve. A vast majority of people suffer from mental illness simply from their genes and / or upbringing. Of course, in some cases, there are identifiable factors that can be attributed to triggering depression. Things such as a divorce, job loss, death .......etc. In these cases people have a decent baseline to default back to, and generally recover well.

 

However, most are not that lucky. Depression in many cannot be easily traced back to identifiable factors. Or if it can, there is little that can be done about it. Examples are: Bad upbringing, Poor Genetics, Bad living conditions, No money, Abusive environment, No education, Drugs, Alcohol ..... etc. It would be WONDERFUL if we all had the time, money, energy, and resources to capitalize on "Alternative" treatment methods, but the reality is: We Don't. Such treatments are often an Arduous Uphill Battle with a Minimal Success Rate. Having said that, of course, there are some can be treated by talk therapy and other alternatives. There is NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL when it comes to mental health

 

Because most people do not have have the energy, time, resources or money to commit to "Alternative" treatments,  medication is so popular! It's like picking between the lesser of evils. Medication will NEVER solve Anything, but it does "Dumb Down" or "Anesthetize" people so they don't feel the unbearable emotional pain they carry in severe cases. And in fact, medication can cause more problems down the road. All I'm saying if I had to choose between feeling intense emotional pain or not feeling much of anything, I certainly know which one I would choose! I've spent my life savings and 30 years investing in "Alternative" treatments. They did not work! I know dozens of people like myself. 

 

We are still in the dark ages when it comes to understanding and treating mental illness. At this point in time, although FAR from ideal, medication is by far the most "Practical' solution we have for most people! 

[DataGuy]

@Montesa now you are just spouting nonsense. Your views accord well with pharmaceutical advertizing, but not the actual research. If you would like to take medications, you're welcome to do that. There are facebook groups who will support you there. However, even in the "pro-medication" groups, you will see that the medications actually don't work very well, and people still experience quite alarming side effects, even in the short term. You're very welcome to join these groups and see for yourself. This site is a deprescribing site, and many have had quite negative experiences with meds, so you should not be surprised when people react negatively to your fanciful view of these drugs. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by DataGuy

[Hanna72]

Hi @Montesa

Been following the conversation on here. 
Personally I find it triggering, having been in the situation that I was told I had “mental illness” after having couple of panic attacks. The term mental illness is thrown out there like most people have it, when they have faced hard episodes in life. Not saying some people should not take meds, but in

my opinion the enormous amount of subscription for people is just not normal. 
Everything is labelled today as a mental illness, the whole world population might be mentally ill due to all the labels thrown at us. That’s alarming. 
Many people on here have suffered greatly coming off their medication, not because of “relapse” but due to severe withdrawals, which some doctors are finally acknowledging. 
Your opinion is of course valid, we are allowed to have them. 
Know that majority of people on here have suffered greatly and this site is our support and safe space  for coming off these medication.

 

 

[Altostrata]

I don't think this is the right support site for you. You might prefer PatientsLikeMe.com or depressionforums.org