Ventus: intro

[Ventus]

Since this page is going to have alot of my suffering on it I want to share a nice thing that has happened.  I had an emotional surge of empathy. I was very anger and sad for a few days but it was also very warm and pleasant.  I wish all of my withdrawal would be like that.

[Ventus]

I have an accuracy related question.  Which my liquid citalopram and current syringe I can accurately measure at minimum .05ml doses. That is equivalent to .1mg of citalopram. Anything less would involve dilution and be very inaccurate.  That leaves me unable to go down any lower without doing things I highly doubt I could do accurately.  Like getting a microlitter syringe or diluting the liquid.  That leaves me unable to go any lower. My current plan is just to round but do you all think accuracy below .1mg is valuable.

[ChessieCat]

Are you using prescription liquid or making your own?

 

Either way you can dilute it with more water.

 

Check the ingredients label of a prescription liquid or research online for them.  The following Celexa oral solution contains water so it can be diluted further with water.

 

From https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2012/020822s042,021046s019lbl.pdf

 

Quote

Celexa oral solution contains citalopram HBr equivalent to 2 mg/mL citalopram base. It also contains the following inactive ingredients: sorbitol, purified water, propylene glycol, methylparaben, natural peppermint flavor, and propylparaben.

 

If you are making a 10% reduction it is better to round the number up so that you are reducing less than 10%.  Until you get down to a very low dose it is easier to work with a higher number, eg one or two decimal places.  If it goes to 3 decimal places, round it up to two decimal places.

 

Here are the topics where you might find helpful information:

 

tips-for-tapering-off-celexa-citalopram

 

how-to-make-a-liquid-from-tablets-or-capsules

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ventus]

It's the prescription liquid. But true I could dilute it with water

[ChessieCat]

When it comes to getting off prescription antidepressants and getting the doses we need we have no choice but to "tinker".  I've been taking Pristiq which in Australia only comes in 50mg and 100mg tablets, whereas 25mg is available in other countries.  The instructions are that the tablet cannot be cut.  So how am I supposed to get off the drug?  I have been getting my tablets compounded for the majority of my taper, and recently I've been dissolving the contents of a capsule in water and taking it as a liquid.

 

People who are taking capsules which contain tiny beads open their capsules and take out beads.  And the beads are not always the same size so they have to categorise them into small, medium and large so they can get a consistent dose.

 

Compared to what some members have to do to get their dose, you and I have it relatively easy, even though it can be a nuisance.

 

And doing a liquid taper has it benefits.  You can have accuracy and consistency as well as create various dilutions.  I am currently using 0.005mg:1, but to get my last couple of doses before stopping I will be using 0.0025mg:1mL and 0.00125mg:1mL.  So how is that for "tinkering"?

[Ventus]

That's very impressive actually.  For me even now I see some air buddies sometimes when I draw up the liquid so I am sure somedays I am getting a fraction less then 4.5ml but yeah I get your point. I could dilute it in water and stir without too much difficulty. 

[getofflex]

18 hours ago, Ventus said:

For me even now I see some air buddies sometimes when I draw up the liquid

When this happens, hold your syringe vertically so the open end faces up, and flick the top of the syringe several times with your fingers.  The bubbles will float to the top.  Carefully and slowly push down the plunger to remove the bubbles.  This will give you a more accurate dose, which is better.  

[Ventus]

Thanks! I'll try that.

[Ventus]

So my next question is how does one know when they are ready to taper further? I have once again reached the point where 1mg of melatonin puts me to sleep consistently.  And the 4:30am jolts awake are gone and I get less wake ups in the middle of the night.  I am sleeping better now then when I was at 10mg. But I still can rarely fall asleep without something pushing me to sleep. Like melatonin or benadryl.  I am torn between waiting longer and continuing.  All my other withdrawal symptoms tend to just come and go but the insomina is persistent. 

[getofflex]

Go to this link and read #5 on stability. It will help you know when to taper.

 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/23081-are-we-there-yet-how-long-is-withdrawal-going-to-take/?tab=comments#comment-492493

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by getofflex

[Ventus]

I have only managed a few tapers so far but of the ones I have done I noticed a pattern.  It takes about 5 days for my body to react to the drop. And the withdrawal spike that follows has been the same each time, though the length of the withdrawal spike varies.I get heart issues and sleep issues. They are a lot less intense and more manageable then when I did the cold turkey and they fade over time.  But even as I stabilize each time  my sleep is still broken with me sleeping for a few hours waking and faling back asleep and  that repeats throughout the night. The amount varies alot anywhere from 4 to 8 but it usually lands close to 6. I don't feel sleep deprived so I guess I am getting enough. My questions are is it common for people to get the same withdrawal spikes through the whole taper or do they change up over time? And is the broken but good enough sleep just gonna be there for a long while? Before my latest drop I stopped needing any kind of sleep aid and that was nice but the sleep was still broken.  

[getofflex]

3 hours ago, Ventus said:

They are a lot less intense and more manageable then when I did the cold turkey and they fade over time.

That is great news. 

 

3 hours ago, Ventus said:

The amount varies alot anywhere from 4 to 8 but it usually lands close to 6. I don't feel sleep deprived so I guess I am getting enough.

This is good!  Many of us, myself included, have had terrible sleep issues during WD. 

 

3 hours ago, Ventus said:

My questions are is it common for people to get the same withdrawal spikes through the whole taper or do they change up over time?

WD is different for different people.  In some people, each reduction in dose created different issues.  For me personally, as I've gotten lower in my dose, and am reducing more slowly and carefully, it is getting more predictable. Try reading some of the other intros, and see what others WD is like.  

 

3 hours ago, Ventus said:

And is the broken but good enough sleep just gonna be there for a long while?

It could be, but even in people not going through withdrawal, broken sleep is not uncommon.  I suspect that your sleep will very gradually continue to improve, as it has been improving.  I know my sleep is very slowly improving, but I still have rough nights, but not like I used to have in early WD.  

 

3 hours ago, Ventus said:

Before my latest drop I stopped needing any kind of sleep aid

That's great!  Count yourself fortunate.  Keep up the good work. 

[Ventus]

I have another kinda withdrawal related question.  It's hard for me not to constantly think about this. Even though I have the strength now to live close to how I was before. And there is a constant fear of will I ever be free of the meds and of what damage I'll be left with when this is all over. How do you all cope with this? It's making me not so fun to be around. Another question is it's very hard for me to be around those who are on meds, or considering going on them. I am finding myself wanting to remove these formerly close friends from my life. I almost broke down crying when I happened to see a close friends citalopram rx. Whats the best way to deal with that? It's not like I can change them and they are the same people as before but it's so uncomfortable for me to be around now. 

[getofflex]

6 hours ago, Ventus said:

And there is a constant fear of will I ever be free of the meds and of what damage I'll be left with when this is all over. How do you all cope with this?

I can understand why it is easy to thing this.  These drugs are pernicious, and our nervous systems become dependent upon them.  I'm a very persistent person, and I've told myself no matter what, I'm getting off these drugs.  The key to it is to go extremely slowly, and be very very patient.  I've been working on my Lexapro taper since August or September of 2017, so that is over 4 years.  However, I'm pretty close to zero, which is quite exciting!  As far as what damage will be left, I tell myself, it is less than the damage of staying on them, which for me meant only feeling like half of a person.  

 

6 hours ago, Ventus said:

Another question is it's very hard for me to be around those who are on meds, or considering going on them. I am finding myself wanting to remove these formerly close friends from my life.

I'm not sure what to say about this.  I guess I would just let them know how hard it can be to get off of these drugs, and perhaps tell them about this forum, so they can be properly informed about what can happen.  Then let it go.  People have to make their own choices, and suffer their own consequences.     

[Ventus]

Thanks! Good advice honestly and sorry for the weird question I have been getting very emotional lately and reacting strongly to well everything. 

[getofflex]

On 12/19/2021 at 5:00 PM, Ventus said:

I have been getting very emotional lately and reacting strongly to well everything. 

I have had the very same thing in my own withdrawal.  It's part of getting off these mind numbing drugs.  This will mellow out eventually. 

[Ventus]

For some reason I can't explain tapering has gotten easier this year. My withdrawal spikes have been alot tamer then usual. But I am also getting close to the area that I have read here is very hard. What do people usually do to prepare for those last few mg? Once I reach below 5mg I'll be on the stepper curve.

[getofflex]

7 minutes ago, Ventus said:

For some reason I can't explain tapering has gotten easier this year. My withdrawal spikes have been alot tamer then usual

This is great news!  My tapering got easier as I got lower in dose.  

 

I noticed you dropped from 9 mg to 6 mg in late December.  That is a bigger jump than we suggest here - 33%.  

 

7 minutes ago, Ventus said:

What do people usually do to prepare for those last few mg? Once I reach below 5mg I'll be on the stepper curve.

Just be sure and only reduce by 10% or less, and take plenty of time to stabilize between each reduction.  There were many times I waited 6, 8, 12, weeks, or even 5 months between reductions.  It takes a long time, but it's well worth it.  Be sure and do 10% or less of your current dose, so that each reduction becomes smaller and smaller.  This will help to account for the fact that you are on the steep part of the curve.  

 

If your current dose is 6 mg, then a 10% reduction would be go down to 5.4 mg.  

[Ventus]

Thanks for reminding me to fill it out more completely 

[ChessieCat]

4 hours ago, getofflex said:

take plenty of time to stabilize between each reduction.

 

Stability

 

WDnormal

 

And Brassmonkey talks more about it here:

 

tao-of-the-brassmonkey

[Ventus]

I have been having an admittedly  minor issue lately.  Do you guys have any advice for changing  ones circadian rhythm? My body wants to go to sleep early and wake up early. Even when I go out late I tend to wake up around the same early time. It's not explosive or uncomfortable like it was for me all those months ago it just feels like it's my bodies new desired time to sleep and wake up. 

[hayduke]

Hi Ventus.  Yes.  I've been a night owl much of my life.

 

Unfortunately we have daylight saving where I live.  The night the clocks changed to summer time last year I finally went to zero, figuring my sleep would be disrupted anyway and I was already in range.

 

I started waking around dawn, sometimes even before, and turning in much earlier.  (Easier these days with the pandemic having put a damper on the night life).  I didn't find anything to worry about with this, I just go to bed earlier and wake earlier.  This is also said to be normal with age.  The only thing to note is that I don't sleep in any more after a later night.  I still wake up earlier, so if I want a good long sleep I have to turn in early.

 

Overall I am content with this change and it's nice to go for early walks some days and watch the sun rise.

[Ventus]

I am finding the same with me. I don't like the change though since I like to stay out late with friends and nowadays it means that I will sleep alot less if I do.  But I did just manage to fall back asleep this morning and get enough sleep luckily.  If I can continue to do that I guess I'll be fine. 

[getofflex]

I, too, have been going to bed earlier, and getting up earlier. My hubby and I are retired, so this is not an issue.  We usually go to bed between 8:45 and 9:30.   I usually wake up pretty early too, but as long as I can get some decent sleep, I'm fine with that.  

[Ventus]

I have been holding my latest dose for longer then usual and something odd is happening. My whole body just feels well weird, the sensation is hard to describe but it's not bad or painful but not good either. Is that one a common experience too? Other then that its been weeks of me being ok. 

[Ventus]

Its been a while since I have posted so I thought I would give an update. The heart issues don't happen as much or as intensely anymore. The insomnia happens every single time I taper down still and lasts maybe 1 to 2 weeks. I sometimes also get random periods of insomnia while holding that last anywhere from a day to a week. My sleep schedule is getting closer to what it was with more nights of me sleeping from around 10 to 11pm to around 6 to 7am. I get lots of wake ups still sometimes, usually I get more night time wake ups closer to the periods of insomnia but on a normal night I have 1 or 2 brief wake ups. I will usually get extremely irritable after I taper down for a few days to a week. I feel less emotionally numb but that's kind of hard for me to quantify of how much less numb I am. My biggest problem really is that I have had very little improvement on the sexual stuff and even those small improvements come and go, I wonder if that is just damage that will be there forever. So there is both good and bad 

[ChessieCat]

11 minutes ago, Ventus said:

The insomnia happens every single time I taper down still and lasts maybe 1 to 2 weeks.

 

To me this is an indication that you are tapering too quickly.  These are the % decreases you have made:

 

2mL/4mg

3/6/2022 1.5ml/3mg                        25% decrease

4/12/2022  5/31/2022 1ml/2mg      33.33% decrease

7/31/2022 .5ml/1mg                         50% decrease

 

SA's suggested taper rate is to reduce by no more than 10% of the current dose (not the starting dose) and to hold for at least 4 weeks to allow the brain to adapt to not getting as much of the drug.

 

 

 

[Altostrata]

@Ventus you're getting warning signs your taper is too fast. Please do not count on being able to reverse it if you start to get more severe withdrawal symptoms. Being more gradual with your taper is the surer road to success.

[Ventus]

True I have to slow down  at this point.  Time for numerous less then a mg drops until I reach the goal amount and stay on that for a while to be sure I am safe.

[Ventus]

and you guys where right. Damn did it hurt to go down from 1mg to .8mg. I updosed to .9mg today and will sit on it for a while. It looks like this is gonna take a long while to get off of

[Ventus]

It's been about a week since I updosed to .9mg. The heart pain is gone. I am still barely sleeping. The insomina I got from tapering was very mild and I was still getting 6 to 7 hours with the help of editables. This one is alot worse but not as bad as during the cold turkey. 

 

I was feeling so confident before because even as had the mild withdrawal I could still live life mostly normally.  This taper has been a literal shock to my system.  I havent felt this bad since well September of last year.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Ventus

[Ventus]

There is a symptom I have been having again this month I wanted to ask about. It hasn't happened to me since well last year.  When I try to go to bed and put the blanket on, it's a small weighted one. I get heart palpitations and my body heats up and my limbs burn. These all go away immediately if I get out from under the covers. Melatonin and l argine do reduce these symptoms.  Does anyone know what is going on with that?  Just like last time as I hold the dose the symptoms seem to be  slowly fading. Hopefully they will be gone again soon.

[ChessieCat]

Possibly a cortisol spike.  I sometimes get them during the early hours of the morning.  I can be lying in bed trying to go back to sleep and I've worked out that it happens when I think of something that is stressful and I get this weird sensation.  Because I know what it is, so I don't get scared of what is happening and add secondary fear/anxiety to it, I just try to concentrate on my breathing and relax and the sensation goes. 

 

early-morning-waking-managing-the-morning-cortisol-spike

 

[Ventus]

Yeah I don't get anxious either but the sensation doesn't go away on its own. Last time I had it it took somewhere between 4 to 6 weeks to fully resolve. So I pause tapering and wait however long it takes  I guess.

[Ventus]

My next question is how much is too much of an updose. I am thinking about going back to my last stable dose of 1mg. Waiting then just making the small drops after I stabilize. But that means going up another .1mg

[ChessieCat]

Personally I don't think it is a good idea to updose unless absolutely necessary.  The question I would ask myself was:  can I live with this symptom if it continues?  If the answer was no, then I would make a small updose.  However, generally the answer was yes, I can live with this so I stayed on the dose and held for longer and didn't reduce unless I was stable.

 

If you are able to tolerate the symptoms it is better to not updose.  The effect of psychiatric drugs is cumulative.  I can see that you have updosed before (I think your recent dates in your signature are supposed to be 2022 not 2021).  Just because you were able to updose previously does not mean that it will work the next time you do it.  It could possibly make things worse.

 

You are taking a liquid.  You can dilute it so that you can measure smaller amounts.