HopeForTomorrow: SSRI and benzo withdrawal

[HopeForTomorrow]

Hi @Frogie!

 

13 minutes ago, Frogie said:

Have you tried putting these into the interaction checker on drugs.com? That would be the first place I would go to check for interactions. Supplements sometimes can be worse than anything because they are not regulated and may contain many ingredients that can cause multi symptoms. You might continue a histamine diet since that is safe.

 

Yes! No interactions BUT it's advised via medical community not to take with drugs that are changed by the liver because it affects how they're metabolized. Celexa is metabolized by the liver. I'm assuming that means that the Quercetin increased the effects of Celexa - so now that I stopped taking it, it's almost like a huge cut or adverse reaction? It feels very much like the cold turkey in the beginning.

 

I will definitely stay on the low histamine diet.

 

15 minutes ago, Frogie said:

Also, I would be reluctant to try all the things the functional neurologist suggests (red light therapy, eye movement therapy, hyperbaric chamber) + treating gut issues with supplements and probiotic, without researching all of these first. What they do to the body, especially when tapering psychiatric medications.

 

 

Yeah, I decided against it. This functional neurologist is the one who put me on Quercetin so it goes to show she doesn't truly understand withdrawal and medication/supplement interactions. I feel so silly. I researched up and down for interaction with my benzo withdrawal but didn't even think it could affect SSRI withdrawal - especially since it was on the interaction website.

 

16 minutes ago, Frogie said:

You say you took an antibiotic, correct? What antibiotic did you take? They can throw you into wd also.

 

Yes - Day 5 of Covid I also got a UTI. They gave me a shot of rocephin (I tolerated this okay a year or so ago but now not sure because my sensitivities increased)

 

17 minutes ago, Frogie said:

I would not take Benadryl for sleep. You could try melatonin, but more is not better. Try 0.3 mg. It will not make you sleep, but can help keep you stay asleep. Try shutting off the tv, computer and phone a couple of hours before bed as blue light can disturb your sleep also. You might try an Epson salt bath before bed also. Those help some people.

 

Thank you Frogie! Why no benadryl? I've used it very sparingly for those histamine attacks. I will avoid using for sleep or anything else if it can hurt.

 

19 minutes ago, Frogie said:

It won't take forever to taper off of 1 mg Celexa. You could try the Brassmonkey slide when stable. You would taper 2.5% a week for 4 weeks then hold for 2 weeks. Just look how far you have gotten, not how far you have to go.

 

I just read up on "The End Game Taper" by Brass Monkey and I feel a little more comfortable when the time is right. Right now, I'm thinking I will continue to hold and see if my body can recover/stabilize from the Quercetin mishap and covid/antibiotic trauma. This setback is devastating to say the least.

 

Alto, if you get time, would you suggest the same? Waiting it out and not doing anything with the Celexa at the moment?

 

Thank you both so much.

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

1 minute ago, HopeForTomorrow said:

Yes! No interactions BUT it's advised via medical community not to take with drugs that are changed by the liver because it affects how they're metabolized. Celexa is metabolized by the liver. I'm assuming that means that the Quercetin increased the effects of Celexa - so now that I stopped taking it, it's almost like a huge cut or adverse reaction? It feels very much like the cold turkey in the beginning.

 

I will definitely stay on the low histamine diet.

We don't suggest supplements on here because of the interactions they can cause. Drugs are metabolized in the liver and you don't want to unnecessary strain on your liver if possible. I think at this point your best bet will be the low histamine diet.

 

3 minutes ago, HopeForTomorrow said:

Yeah, I decided against it. This functional neurologist is the one who put me on Quercetin so it goes to show she doesn't truly understand withdrawal and medication/supplement interactions. I feel so silly. I researched up and down for interaction with my benzo withdrawal but didn't even think it could affect SSRI withdrawal - especially since it was on the interaction website.

Don't ever feel silly in this tapering thing. So many dr's don't understand and will mislead you per se, they just don't know. It is all a learning experience and I think it is great that I learn something new everyday. You can never learn too much about all of this, but I am glad you decided against it. 

 

5 minutes ago, HopeForTomorrow said:

Yes - Day 5 of Covid I also got a UTI. They gave me a shot of rocephin (I tolerated this okay a year or so ago but now not sure because my sensitivities increased)

Your body goes through so many changes in wd and tapering. One antibiotic that worked once, may not work again. 

 

7 minutes ago, HopeForTomorrow said:

Thank you Frogie! Why no benadryl? I've used it very sparingly for those histamine attacks. I will avoid using for sleep or anything else if it can hurt.

It is fine to take a small amount for allergies, but your body can become dependent on it for sleep/nausea. It is not made for a sleep aid. 

 

9 minutes ago, HopeForTomorrow said:

32 minutes ago, Frogie said:

 

 

I just read up on "The End Game Taper" by Brass Monkey and I feel a little more comfortable when the time is right. Right now, I'm thinking I will continue to hold and see if my body can recover/stabilize from the Quercetin mishap and covid/antibiotic trauma. This setback is devastating to say the least.

That's great you are reading Brassmonkey's articles. He is very experienced in all of this and tells you so you understand what is going on. I would give your body time to heal with the covid, antibiotic, Quercetin trauma. I would give it at least 3-4 weeks and assess it again after that. You may find you are in a much better place to begin tapering again at that point.

 

You are very welcome. Glad I can help.

[HopeForTomorrow]

1 hour ago, Frogie said:

I would give your body time to heal with the covid, antibiotic, Quercetin trauma. I would give it at least 3-4 weeks and assess it again after that. You may find you are in a much better place to begin tapering again at that point.

 

You are very welcome. Glad I can help.

Thank you so much Frogie! The anxiety and symptoms are absolutely unreal. Diarrhea/GI upset, massive chemical anxiety, complete insomnia, weakness. I am completely nonfunctional. I had this extreme anxiety and panic and other symptoms when Covid hit, I think Quercetin covered up some of those symptoms by increasing Celexa therapeutic affect (possibly). 

 

It actually has me considering updosing on the Celexa but not sure if that’s ill advised?

 

I will hold for now. I’m not doing anything against you guys recommendations. 
 

Thank you so much! 

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

I would give it a few weeks and see if you settle down after all of these changes.

 

If it doesn't we can always talk about a small increase after that to see if it helps. I just don't want to do that until we see if your body calms down after all the trauma it has been through.

 

Sometimes the side effects are brutal, but manageable with eating non-greasy and no spicy foods. Try yogurt, chicken, crackers and cheese, small, frequent meals often help. Even protein shakes are a good alternative.

[HopeForTomorrow]

6 minutes ago, Frogie said:

I would give it a few weeks and see if you settle down after all of these changes.

 

If it doesn't we can always talk about a small increase after that to see if it helps. I just don't want to do that until we see if your body calms down after all the trauma it has been through.

 

Thank you, Frogie. Whew, it's very hard right now. I cannot even believe I'm even considering an updose - I don't think I was expecting Covid to bring back such chemical anxiety. Then the Quercetin fiasco.

 

I haven't felt this much physical anxiety and insomnia since the chaos in the beginning with the adverse reaction and cold turkey! So discouraging.

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

It can become discouraging when all of these things happen to us. But that is your body saying, "Whoa, I've had enough."

 

I think if you just get rest and take care of your body for 3-4 weeks, hopefully you will be back to "normal".

 

If, not after that,  we can reassess the issues at that time.

 

Just breathe. 

[HopeForTomorrow]

19 minutes ago, Frogie said:

@HopeForTomorrow

 

It can become discouraging when all of these things happen to us. But that is your body saying, "Whoa, I've had enough."

 

I think if you just get rest and take care of your body for 3-4 weeks, hopefully you will be back to "normal".

 

If, not after that,  we can reassess the issues at that time.

 

Just breathe. 

 

In regards to updosing, have people had to do a tiny updose to stabilize and then were they able to continue cutting successfully?

 

Thank you so much Frogie! I'm praying it all settles soon.

[Frogie]

5 minutes ago, HopeForTomorrow said:

 

In regards to updosing, have people had to do a tiny updose to stabilize and then were they able to continue cutting successfully?

 

Thank you so much Frogie! I'm praying it all settles soon.

Many have had to updose and then stabilize before tapering. I was one of them.

 

I'm praying right along with you.

[HopeForTomorrow]

6 minutes ago, Frogie said:

Many have had to updose and then stabilize before tapering. I was one of them.

 

I'm praying right along with you.

 

Did you find that the updose helped and then when you started tapering, it was a lot more stable/easier?

 

Thank you so much Frogie!

[HopeForTomorrow]

Frogie/Alto - 

 

Now I'm second guessing it. Was this all just post-covid and Quercetin was helping with the side effects?

 

Or did Quercetin increase the therapeutic affects of Celexa and that was helping? It was obviously helping me sleep.

 

 

I'm in really bad shape at the moment and trying to figure out the next steps.

 

 

@brassmonkey - I saw where you stated Quercetin probably isn't best in withdrawal. Can I get your opinion on this? Covid has WRECKED me and sent me worse than cold turkey. I'm not sleeping, can barely eat, derealization, headaches/brain pressure, diarrhea/nausea. 3 weeks into Covid I started Quercetin. It seemed to stop headaches and anxiety/insomnia although still had GI discomfort. I was up and down taking it as I didn't know what was what but the last 9 days I took it consistently. This is my 3rd day of stopping and I am in crisis mode wondering what to do.

 

Thank you so much!

[HopeForTomorrow]

I just reported this for advice from anyone - so sorry for the multiple posts.

 

Today I've just gotten worse throughout the day and starting to think Quercetin was actually helping the post covid symptoms of anxiety, insomnia, migraines/head pressure. I still had bad derealization, gut issues, weakness/fatigue left.

 

Can you tell me if it's bad to take with Celexa? I see several people who have taken it but not sure what is recommended. I just don't want to throw anything off with SSRI withdrawal.

 

It's definitely recommended in the post covid/long covid groups but obviously we're different. Please let me know ASAP - today is day 3 not taking Quercetin and I'd like to get back steady with it if it's going to help and not hurt to prevent any further destabilizing or future issues.

 

Thank you so much!

[Frogie]

5 hours ago, HopeForTomorrow said:

 

Did you find that the updose helped and then when you started tapering, it was a lot more stable/easier?

 

Thank you so much Frogie!

The updose stabilized me so that I could taper more consistently. But my tapering was really bad until I found this site, so I was a mess.

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

I found this by doing a google search:

 

https://www.mountsinai.org/health-library/supplement/quercetin#:~:text=Quercetin is generally considered safe,quercetin may damage the kidneys.

 

 

https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-294/quercetin

 

I didn't read them, but it gives you something to look at. You can google Quercetin side effects and it will come up with more.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Frogie

[Altostrata]

22 hours ago, HopeForTomorrow said:

Windows were just starting to look decent when I got Covid, a UTI/antibiotic and stomach virus (within 2 weeks) about 6 weeks ago. 
 

Symptoms went crazy but newest symptoms (I didn’t have before) are derealization, headaches/migraines, anhedonia, extreme anxiety at times, unable to handle a lot of stimulation, GI distress.

 

I'm sorry, we don't know anything about what might be post-covid symptoms, aftereffects of an antibiotic reaction, or symptoms from gut dysbiosis. When you have a history of covid and current other health problems, we can't tell which symptoms are related to withdrawal and which are not.

 

I wouldn't change the Celexa until you feel better overall.

[HopeForTomorrow]

4 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

I'm sorry, we don't know anything about what might be post-covid symptoms, aftereffects of an antibiotic reaction, or symptoms from gut dysbiosis. When you have a history of covid and current other health problems, we can't tell which symptoms are related to withdrawal and which are not.

Thank you so much, Alto. It stinks! 
 

5 minutes ago, Altostrata said:

I wouldn't change the Celexa until you feel better overall.

My knee jerk reaction was to updose because of the severe anxiety and insomnia (can’t even believe I’m saying that after 2 years of absolutely not considering that option). 
 

I decided to reinstate the Quercetin this evening. Within 2 hours of taking it the severe anxiety and a lot of the physical symptoms subsided. I’m not sure why unless the severe anxiety is inflammation from Covid and the Quercetin calms that OR it calms the histamine response my immune system is having. Either way, it beats not losing my mind.
 

I questioned this decision because all of me would love nothing more than to be med/supplement free and feeling well but I was spiraling and truly could not help it. I hadn’t had uncontrollable anxiety like that since adverse reaction and cold turkey. Very surprising and gut wrenching for me to see the light and have good windows and then this but remaining positive that my brain is okay, it’s just healing. 

[Altostrata]

You do need to treat your gut problem. Suggest you start with the lowest-impact treatments first.

[Altostrata]

On 9/13/2022 at 11:20 AM, HopeForTomorrow said:

Now I'm second guessing it. Was this all just post-covid and Quercetin was helping with the side effects?

 

Or did Quercetin increase the therapeutic affects of Celexa and that was helping? It was obviously helping me sleep.

 

As explained before, we don't know anything about quercetin or covid. We cannot help you with general medicine questions.

[HopeForTomorrow]

Sorry @Altostrata, warning accepted. I think I was more or less making sure Quercetin was okay to take in withdrawal.

 

Thank you for your time and suggestions to not touch Celexa until I start feeling better.

 

I’ll be back once I’m at that point. Wish everyone the best!

[HopeForTomorrow]

Hey alto and frogie!

 

The last 2 days, the blepharospams are severe. More severe than it’s ever been. These went away during the tapering process of lorazepam, came back towards the end of the tapering process of lorazepam. They seemed to ebb and flow in severity after cessation of lorazepam but always there. I never thought SSRI’s could contribute to blepharospams but my primary doctor just stated that maybe the 1mg Celexa is contributing to the severity now.

 

With your expertise, do you think this could be the case? Do you think the 1mg of Celexa is causing more problems?

 

Since hitting tolerance with lorazepam and withdrawal, I have become sensitive to so many things. Chemicals, soaps, shampoos, medications, supplements, etc. that I’ve never had issues with. I’m wondering if now my body is rejecting the SSRI?

 

Or is this just a massive benzo withdrawal wave from Covid?
 

Thank you so much!

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

Celexa can cause blurred vision and dry eyes, so I would tend to believe the lorazepam wd is causing the blepharospams as that is a benzo side effect.

 

How often does it happen?

[HopeForTomorrow]

2 minutes ago, Frogie said:

@HopeForTomorrow

 

Celexa can cause blurred vision and dry eyes, so I would tend to believe the lorazepam wd is causing the blepharospams as that is a benzo side effect.

 

How often does it happen?

I knew blepharospams were a benzo side effect and could be in withdrawal too. It went away when I was withdrawing initially and then came back.
 

Over the last 2 days, I would say every minute or so for several seconds. If I lay down with eyes closed, it calms some.

 

I’m not sure why such “low doses” are doing this to me. I was on .20 lorazepam when it gradually started in December. I assumed this was tolerance. Then I’m only on 1mg Celexa. I just don’t know what is what. 

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

I would still think it is the lorazepam withdrawal as you said it started then, and not the Celexa.

 

You might read this link, as a lot of members have had this problem.

 

 

[HopeForTomorrow]

3 minutes ago, Frogie said:

I would still think it is the lorazepam withdrawal as you said it started then, and not the Celexa.

I was thinking this too all along until she mentioned it and it made me second guess it.

 

So you think just a big benzo wave?

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

Yes I think it is the benzo. You can have side effects for years unfortunately.

 

Dr's sometimes don't know what is going on and will "guess" at the symptoms.

 

You can always google and read articles on this subject also.

[HopeForTomorrow]

Hey @Altostrata and @Frogie!

 

I reached a spot in benzo withdrawal where I was slightly stable. I kept having bladder/UTI type symptoms. I tried antibiotics to no avail and the head pressure and blepharospasms were getting severe and unbearable. 
 

I thought maybe it was time to start tapering the Celexa. 
 

This morning I did a 10% cut at 9am and by 12pm I was having full fledge SSRI withdrawal symptoms - internal uneasiness, pacing, anxiety, fatigue, heart pounding. 
 

Although I had experienced these symptoms at a lesser severity, I am pretty overwhelmed with how badly this feels. 
 

Did I make the wrong move cutting by 10%? Should I go back up to 1mg tomorrow and try a lesser drop in a week or so?

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

It sounds like your body doesn't like the 10% taper. 

 

You could go back up tomorrow and stabilize, then try maybe brassmonkey sliide. It is much gentler on your system.

 

Brass Monkey Slide

[HopeForTomorrow]

3 minutes ago, Frogie said:

@HopeForTomorrow

 

It sounds like your body doesn't like the 10% taper. 

 

You could go back up tomorrow and stabilize, then try maybe brassmonkey sliide. It is much gentler on your system.

 

Brass Monkey Slide

Thank you so much, my friend! This was shocking to me and felt like a gut punch in my healing journey.
 

Did you notice symptoms lessened as you lowered? (Slowly, of course) - the beginning is brutal, wow! 
 

Also, the link isn’t working from the brass monkey slide - do you have another one? It takes me to the slide but won’t take me to the one that’s 2.5% cut once a week and then holding for 2 weeks. 
 

Thank you so much!

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

I did a straight 10% a month and I should have been gentler to myself. But I did find when I got really low I did feel better. So hopefully you will too. Everyone is different though, so don't go from my experience.

 

Try this link. 

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

[HopeForTomorrow]

3 minutes ago, Frogie said:

@HopeForTomorrow

 

I did a straight 10% a month and I should have been gentler to myself. But I did find when I got really low I did feel better. So hopefully you will too. Everyone is different though, so don't go from my experience.

 

Try this link. 

 

The Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro-tapering

I went there and tried to click the link for the taper excel spreadsheet but it’s not working:

http://www.taperoff.co/
 

I guess I’m confused also on when I will make the jump. I see some people say 1mg, some .02mg. Is it just when you stop noticing any withdrawal symptoms?

 

I will go back to 1mg tomorrow and stabilize then try the 2.5% cut. 

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

There is no tried or true answer as to when you should jump off. You will never mathematically reach "0". I can tell you in my experience, I jumped off at .5mg and it was too high. I would go as low as you can. Then hopefully you will be left with fewer symptoms.

 

Let's try this link for the spreadsheets:

 

How to calculate dosages and dilutions? Spreadsheets and calculators - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

[HopeForTomorrow]

@brassmonkey - do you happen to have the spreadsheet? I’m tapering 1mg Celexa 2.5% each week with a 2 week hold. 
 

I tried to find the spreadsheet you had available but it’s missing the one with the 2 week hold. 
 

Thank you so much!

[HopeForTomorrow]

4 minutes ago, Frogie said:

@HopeForTomorrow

 

There is no tried or true answer as to when you should jump off. You will never mathematically reach "0". I can tell you in my experience, I jumped off at .5mg and it was too high. I would go as low as you can. Then hopefully you will be left with fewer symptoms.

 

Let's try this link for the spreadsheets:

 

How to calculate dosages and dilutions? Spreadsheets and calculators - Tapering - Surviving Antidepressants

Thank you so much Frogie.

 

I definitely do not want to jump too soon.

 

I will update you as time passes. 

[HopeForTomorrow]

Oh one more thing @Frogie @Altostrata,

 

I am still on the PPI.

 

Is that something I should look at tapering prior to cutting the Celexa?

 

Or can you do those at the same time? My B12 numbers in December were 338 pg/mL. Vitamin D was at 30ng/mL.

Not sure if that is contributing to any symptoms, as well but I cannot tolerate vitamins at the moment. 

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

Brassmonkey is not on right now. He is off to India!

 

I can give you the tapers for the first month:

 

Week 1: 0.975mg

Week 2: 0.95mg

Week 3: 0.925mg

Week 4: 0.9 mg

 

Then hold at .9 mg for 2 weeks.

 

If you need more, let me know.

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

You could stabilize back on the 1mg Celexa and then taper off the PPI. Then go back to tapering the Celexa.

 

 

Tips for tapering off stomach acid blockers or PPIs...

Edited March 9, 2023 by Frogie

[Frogie]

@HopeForTomorrow

 

You don't want to taper multiple medications at the same time. If you have symptoms, you would not know which one is causing it.