michael12345: Advice badly needed !

[michael12345]

Reinstatement to 20 mg paroxetine from 0mg last September but still no better. Severe nausea everyday, can barely move some days. 
 

I’ve waited this long but still it does not go , any suggestions? Perhaps go onto Prozac , increase Paxil dose ? 
 

Have been on Paxil since 18 now 32. 
 

18-24 - 20 mg

25-28-30 mg 

29-32 - 50mg. 
 

June 2020 50 - 20mg ( felt 90% normal ) 

july - 10mg - absolutely terrible. Stupidly carried on 

August- 5mg - IN HELL but continued. 

first week of September 0mg. Couldn’t function , suicidal , severe anxiety and the crippling nausea. 
 

That’s when I decided to go back to 20 my as I could function there.... however have never got back to that level of feeling well in myself. 
 

I don’t know where to go from here ? 
 

Thanks 

 

Mike 

[michael12345]

On 6/28/2014 at 1:00 AM, Altostrata said:

I'm going to post this here so everyone can see it.
 
Our basic rules of succeeding with tapering off psychiatric drugs or recovering from withdrawal syndrome are the rules of 3KIS: Keep it simple. Keep it slow. Keep it stable.
 
1. Keep it simple.
 
When the body reacts, often it's difficult to tell what the cause might be. When you're tapering or trying supplements or other treatments, keeping it simple helps reduce confusion during trial-and-error. Keeping it simple minimize confounding factors. For example:
 
1.a. Do not CHANGE the dosage of more than one drug or supplement at a time.
When you change 2 or more drugs at once and you get a bad reaction, you won't know which drug is causing it.
 
1.b. Do not ADD more than one drug or supplement at a time.
When you add more than one thing at a time -- or, worse, throw the kitchen sink into some kind of cocktail -- and you get a bad reaction, you won't have any idea what to do. Should you drop one thing or all of them?
 
This is also true of mixed supplements, supplements that contain more than one ingredient. It's better to try one ingredient at a time to see how you react.
 
2. Keep it slow.
 
Many people become very sensitive to drugs and supplements after they've experienced withdrawal symptoms for even a short time. Do not count on taking the big risks you used to take. Make changes slowly.
 
Introducing a drug or supplement or changing a dosage very gradually gives you the ability to sample how it might affect you before you go too far. ALWAYS WAIT TO SEE THE RESULT OF A CHANGE BEFORE DECIDING WHAT TO DO NEXT. For many drugs, it takes 1-4 weeks to see the full effect of a change.
 
A big dose or big change probably will cause a worse bad reaction than a very small dose or change. You can injure your nervous system pretty badly with a big change -- it might take you months or years to feel better.
 
For example:
 
2.a. If you are tapering, we recommend a 10% reduction every month, based on the LAST dosage. (The amount of the reduction keeps getting smaller. Read this explanation: Why taper by 10% of my dosage?
 
2.b. Do not expect to feel better immediately. There are no silver bullets for withdrawal syndrome. There is no pill of any kind that will immediately put you back to normal. If you make a good change, the effect is likely to be slight at first. Be patient. Read this: What is withdrawal syndrome?
 
2.c. Do not jump around in dosage. For most drugs, it takes about 4 days for the change to fully register in your system. Unless you have an IMMEDIATE bad reaction, wait at least 4-7 days to see how the change affects you. Long-acting drugs, such as fluoxetine (Prozac),  do not reach full effect for several weeks. (If you have an immediate bad reaction, go back to the dosage you were taking before.)  See steady state graph for Cymbalta.
 
Since withdrawal symptoms ordinarily fluctuate, you might have hours or days here and there when you don't feel well. One episode does not a pattern make. Do not panic and throw in another drug or supplement. Keep notes on paper of your daily symptom pattern. If you feel worse and worse over a week, the change was not a good one. It may be the decrease or increase was too large. Rather than jumping around in dosage, make an adjustment half-way.
 
2.d. Be patient, recovery is inconsistent and gradual. The nervous system is very complicated. It can repair itself, but it takes time to do this. In the meantime, you may experience The Windows and Waves Pattern of Recovery
 
3. Keep it stable.
 
The nervous system is delicate and very complicated. Normally, the autonomic system runs your body with numerous checks and balances, constantly gauging what hormones and transmitters need to be increased and which need to be decreased. Its job is to keep your body stable, at a tolerable temperature range, with everything running smoothly.
 
Psychiatric drugs interfere with the entire nervous system, not just the brain. This is why changing dosage of just one drug can affect your eyesight, your digestion, and your sleep. Taking psychiatric drugs affects the functions of the nervous system.
 
The nervous system, which works so hard to keep your body running smoothly, thrives on stability. When you take a psychiatric drug over a period of time (usually a month or more), your body becomes dependent on the drug. This is called physiological dependency.
 
The nervous system adapts itself to the drug like a plant growing on a trellis. If you tear the trellis away, the plant will be damaged. You need to remove the trellis gradually and allow the plant to retrain itself to its natural growth pattern.
 
Thus, the nervous system does best in a stable environment. Help your nervous system adapt to life without drugs by maintaining as much stability as you can. This is the way you can take care of yourself and help your nervous system to recover. We are our own worst enemies when it comes to stressing our nervous systems! Examples:
 
3.a. Do not suddenly quit taking your drugs. Do not skip doses to taper. These big, fast changes are the opposite of providing stability for your nervous system. Skipping doses causes the amount of the drug in your bloodstream to go up and down. Do not do this for any psychiatric drug.  See this graph which compares skipping days vs daily dosing.

 

3.b. Avoid binges. Even if you had no problems with them before, avoid overindulgence in alcohol, food, partying, sugar, staying up late, even exercise. All of these put the body and the nervous system under stress.
 
3.c. Manage emotional stress. Yes, that abusive relationship can be keeping you from recovering from withdrawal syndrome. You may wish to reduce contact with any people who tend to upset you. If you are an argumentative person, you may wish to minimize your confrontations.
 
3.d. Direct your time and efforts to pastimes that are calming or pleasurable. Calm is good for the nervous system. Always make time for a pleasant walk of at least a half-hour every day. Many people find a place for meditation in their lives because it makes them feel better. Spending time with pets or in nature ("forest bathing") can also be soothing. See our Symptoms and Self-Care forum for more suggestions.
 
3.e. Keep your daily circadian rhythm steady. Your body runs on a daily pattern governed by sunrise and sunset -- the circadian rhythm. Our bodies do best when we wake in the morning, go to sleep at night, and eat at about the same times every day. You may wish to reduce artificial light at night. Do what you can to maintain a regular daily schedule, this helps your nervous system function. See Important topics about symptoms, including sleep problems.

Pls approve my post michael12345. Thanks 

[getofflex]

Hello, and welcome to SA.  We are a peer owned and run forum of people who have been or are getting off of psychiatric drugs.  I'm very sorry to hear you are having troubles getting off of Paxil.  Paxil is a notoriously hard SSRI to taper off of, because of it's short half life.  No worries, there are ways to help with this.  

 

First of all, can you please give us specific information about your drug history for all drugs you are on and have been on, especially for the past 18-24 months?  It would be especially helpful to have the details of your drugs in a concise list (no symptoms), only drug names, specific dates (as best you can say for example early March if you don't recall the day) and dosages of each medication decrease or increase.  Please read the link below for instructions.  This will allow us to give you the best guidance.  

 

How to List Drug History in Signature

 

Here is some information about how these drugs actually work.  

 

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

 

This helps you understand what withdrawal syndrome is: 

 

 Video on Recovery from Psych Drugs

 

What is Withdrawal Syndrome?

 

Tapering is best done extremely slowly, and we taper by 10% of the current dose, so that the taper becomes exponentially smaller.  It looks like you tapered much faster than this last summer, and this has destabilized your nervous system and brought on the withdrawal symptoms.  I suggest that you do not make any changes to your dose, and that you stay on your current dose for a while until your system stabilizes.  This can take many months, so patience is required.  

 

 Why Taper by 10% of my Dosage  

 

Once you are stable, and you are ready to taper further, this link talks about tapering Paxil:

 

Tips for Tapering Paroxetine

 

One option is that you can do a crossover to Prozac, which is easier to taper, due to it's long half life: 

 

The Prozac Switch or Bridging with fluoxetine

 

 

As we are recovering, we suggest keeping things slow, simple, and stable. This is extremely important. 

 

Considerations About Stability Stop Jumping Around

 

Keep it Simple, Slow, and Stable

 

 

When we recover, there are times of feeling OK mixed in with times of feeling bad.  This is called windows and waves.

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Here are some techniques to cope with symptoms: 

 

Non Drug Ways to Cope with Withdrawal Symptoms

 

 

We don't suggest many supplements, but 2 that many of us find helpful are magnesium and omega-3 fish oil. Here are the links for info about those. It is suggested to add one at a time, and start with a low dose to see how it affects you. 

Magnesium

 

Omega 3 Fish Oil

 

59 minutes ago, michael12345 said:

however have never got back to that level of feeling well in myself. 
 

Have you had a gradual improvement since you reinstated to the 20 mg in September 2020?  What are your symptoms now?  On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the worst, how would you rate your symptoms overall? 

 

I've given you quite a bit of information here.  Please read through it, and mull it over, and we will take it from there. In the meantime, take care of yourself, and take heart.  We in this forum have been through this, and we understand first hand the pain and discomfort you are going through.  Please know that the brain is amazing in it's healing abilities.  It takes time, but healing can and will happen. 

[michael12345]

Hi there thanks for the quick response. 

 

Have added my drug history to signature. 

 

It improved when I reinstated in September but still bad.... then windows and waves until around march 2021. Some good hours in days but still severe nausea everyday at some point.

 

Then for some reason around March the severity of the symptom's magnified and have been hellish ever. Hardly any windows and extreme intense nausea. Its the only symptom I have been left with, along with stomach pains. 

 

Am having an endoscopy to rule out gut issues, but fear its acute withdrawal. Too late to reinstate, so I'm in "nomans" land! 

 

Looking for fellow sufferer's thoughts as to whether it could be withdrawal or damage from taking paroxetine for a long time and my body cannot function at this dose.

 

Peptic ulcer disease, acid reflux, gerd for example.

 

Thanks 

 

 

[brassmonkey]

Hi Michael-- I'm sorry that your posts haven't been approved, I'll get that done ASAP.  We are being flooded with new members right now and it's hard to keep them all sorted. Not an excuse, but rather an explanation.  Anyway, welcome to the group.

 

Boy, 50mg Paxil, that's a stiff dose. Doing that fast taper last year probably has caused some heavy symptom. Hopefully the reinstatement is taking affect and things are calming down. How are you feeling now. Would you please post a daily symptom diary so we can try and spot any patterns.

 

You mentioned on Gerald's thread about the Prozac Bridge "crossover". There are some real pros and cons involved with it that we will need to discuss later. For now lets get acquainted then come up with a plan.

[Hanna72]

hi there @michael12345 and welcome from me too. Glad you found your way in here. 

On 5/29/2021 at 9:55 AM, michael12345 said:

Looking for fellow sufferer's thoughts as to whether it could be withdrawal or damage from taking paroxetine for a long time and my body cannot function at this dose.

My bet is its withdrawals. I too suffered from gut issues after quitting paxil last year, had endoscopy also done, and everything was clear. Its good you are having it checked out though, as it might ease your mind and knowing is better than doubting.

 

Our bodies have an amazing capacity to heal, and know that we are not damaged, but in withdrawal from this drug, and time and patience is the key to give our bodies time to heal. 

 

 

 

[michael12345]

16 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Hi Michael-- I'm sorry that your posts haven't been approved, I'll get that done ASAP.  We are being flooded with new members right now and it's hard to keep them all sorted. Not an excuse, but rather an explanation.  Anyway, welcome to the group.

 

Boy, 50mg Paxil, that's a stiff dose. Doing that fast taper last year probably has caused some heavy symptom. Hopefully the reinstatement is taking affect and things are calming down. How are you feeling now. Would you please post a daily symptom diary so we can try and spot any patterns.

 

You mentioned on Gerald's thread about the Prozac Bridge "crossover". There are some real pros and cons involved with it that we will need to discuss later. For now lets get acquainted then come up with a plan.

 

 

Hi there and thanks for approving me. 

 

Yep GP's have no knowledge off what damage these pills do for you and the longer you are on them the worse it gets! Ironically I had no symptoms whilst I was on them, crazy hey!

 

I thought it was getting better but recently it feels like its getting back to the early days of this hell- nothing has changed so very confused.

 

I will do that dairy - always worse in the afternoon and on an empty stomach?

 

Am having the endoscopy soon and currently seeing a private physiatrist who has prescribed me STEMETIL for the sickness?

 

Thanks  

[michael12345]

9 minutes ago, Hanna72 said:

hi there @michael12345 and welcome from me too. Glad you found your way in here. 

My bet is its withdrawals. I too suffered from gut issues after quitting paxil last year, had endoscopy also done, and everything was clear. Its good you are having it checked out though, as it might ease your mind and knowing is better than doubting.

 

Our bodies have an amazing capacity to heal, and know that we are not damaged, but in withdrawal from this drug, and time and patience is the key to give our bodies time to heal. 

 

 

 

Hi Hanna thanks for replying.

 

Yes I fear its withdrawals but like you said its good to rule it out to know what you're dealing with... 100% withdrawals:( 

 

Nausea and stomach pains seems worse on an empty stomach, soon as i woke the nausea hit.  My appetite was still there. I have not vomited once since this journey begun!?

 

How are you feeling now- what stage of recovery are you at?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[Hanna72]

Thanks for asking Mike, I am doing good. Unfortunately had to reinstate fluoxetine after being off paxil for few months, due to fast taper.  I bridged fluoxetine with paxil.

Taking it slow and steady now with my tapering as my goal is getting off the drug while feeling functional. 

 

I will be rooting for you,

take good care of yourself, it truly is so important on this journey.

[michael12345]

17 minutes ago, Hanna72 said:

Thanks for asking Mike, I am doing good. Unfortunately had to reinstate fluoxetine after being off paxil for few months, due to fast taper.  I bridged fluoxetine with paxil.

Taking it slow and steady now with my tapering as my goal is getting off the drug while feeling functional. 

 

I will be rooting for you,

take good care of yourself, it truly is so important on this journey.

Thank you Hanna for your kind words- can you just confirm when you say bridged fluoxetine with paxil what you mean? Did you take both or switch? Thnks 

[Hanna72]

Your are welcome Mike, glad to be able to help.

Yes I bridged its called.

I introduced fluoxetine into the mix, to help with paxil withdrawals while still tapering paxil. So yes I had both drugs in me at the same time for a while.

Its a risk to do so, is not always a successful, but for me it worked.

Here is a link you can read up on it. This is usually done as a last result. 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/19373-the-prozac-switch-or-bridging-with-fluoxetine/

 

 

 

[Phoenixmama]

I’m glad to hear your feeling better @Hanna72 💙

[brassmonkey]

Hi Mike-- I would stay away from the STEMETIL. It is an antipsychotic SDRI (selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor) and will have to be tapered in the same manner as the paxil. It also has some really serious side effects, some of which may not go away after you've gone off the drug.

 

Also there are moderate interactions listed for the two drugs. This will cause some of the side effects, especially movement disorders and balance issues, to be worse it they are taken together.

 

Stomach problems are quite common with paxil, in fact most SSRIs, and tend to clear up as the drug is tapered and removed from the system. Around 70% of the serotonin receptors in the body reside in the gut. So SSRIs have a huge impact on gut health. 

[michael12345]

20 hours ago, Hanna72 said:

Your are welcome Mike, glad to be able to help.

Yes I bridged its called.

I introduced fluoxetine into the mix, to help with paxil withdrawals while still tapering paxil. So yes I had both drugs in me at the same time for a while.

Its a risk to do so, is not always a successful, but for me it worked.

Here is a link you can read up on it. This is usually done as a last result. 

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/19373-the-prozac-switch-or-bridging-with-fluoxetine/

 

 

 

Thanks Hanna for the clarification.Mike 

[michael12345]

15 hours ago, brassmonkey said:

Hi Mike-- I would stay away from the STEMETIL. It is an antipsychotic SDRI (selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor) and will have to be tapered in the same manner as the paxil. It also has some really serious side effects, some of which may not go away after you've gone off the drug.

 

Also there are moderate interactions listed for the two drugs. This will cause some of the side effects, especially movement disorders and balance issues, to be worse it they are taken together.

 

Stomach problems are quite common with paxil, in fact most SSRIs, and tend to clear up as the drug is tapered and removed from the system. Around 70% of the serotonin receptors in the body reside in the gut. So SSRIs have a huge impact on gut health. 

Hi BM 

 

Yes I’m very reluctant to start as have read the really bad reviews and possible side effects.  Am just desperate to ease the nausea. 
 

Yes the gut issues didn’t hit straight , more off a gradual process. Last night after eating I felt so sick then it eased about 1hr later. 
 

QUESTION- what if I decide to stay at 20 mg and not taper. Will the symptoms still clear up over time or am i literally forced into now coming off Paxil long term ? TBH I’d rather stay now as I’m looking at years more of hell if I taper @ 10% 20 mg. 

 

Thanks 

 

Mike 

[brassmonkey]

If you were to stay on the 20mg the WD symptoms from last years fast taper should start to settle out and you will return to a base line. However, you will still be experiencing side effects from being on the drug. Those will probably get worse as time goes on. Also, you could become more sensitized to changes in dosage as time passes. the decision is up to you.

 

No psych drug was designed to be used for the long term. Most were designed to be used for three to six months, a few just a little longer. Paxil has a bad habit of reaching tolerance between ten and fifteen years of use for most people. Some people can go longer but it will eventually happen. With tolerance the body has accepted the amount of drug but starts trying to return to its natural undrugged state. This causes WD symptoms even while taking a full dose. There are two ways to go, either take more drug, which will only be effective for a short time before having to take even more. Or taper off of the drug to "0". The first many months of tapering out of tolerance is quite frustrating because it seems like nothing is happening. It took me  two and a half years before I started to notice any changes.

 

Tapering off the drugs isn't a direct ticket to hell. If done correctly the symptoms should be kept to a minimum and life can be carried out with only some limitations. Tapering at 10% isn't the only way, smaller reductions are just as easy and often product less WD symptoms. One of the big selling points of the Brassmonkey Slide Method is that you can do 10% every six weeks and still keep the symptoms fairly mild because of making the reduction spaced out over four weeks. Some of our members are reporting almost no symptoms at all. I would have a spike for a few days and then it would settle out to a WDnormal baseline. There will always be symptoms during a taper, the trick is to keep them under control and live around them.

 

If you are stable ATM, then I would recommend tapering now rather than waiting until things get worse.

 

Nausea is a very common WD symptom and there is a lot of discussion about it on the forum. Do a site search and you'll find a lot of information.

[Altostrata]

@michael12345 how are you doing?

[michael12345]

On 6/15/2021 at 9:53 PM, Altostrata said:

@michael12345 how are you doing?

Hi. Still really bad. Only major symptom I have is intense nausea in my stomach. Very odd feeling. Damaged vagus nerve I suspect so long term prognosis not looking good. 
 

I will battle on for a while longer. 
 

thanks 

[Hanna72]

Hi @michael12345

Sorry to hear that you are not doing that good.

Eating ginger is something that might help you with your nausea. 
I myself have used ginger shots to relief nausea. Might help.

Hoping you will get some relief soon 🙏

 

 

[Altostrata]

@Hanna72 tell us more about ginger shots!

[Hanna72]

Hi @Altostrata

So ginger has many health benefits. Since I have experienced nausea while tapering, I learned that ginger is used to relief nausea.

You can make your own, for example put some ginger in a juicer machine, and drink the liquid, (small shot) 

You can also heat water in a pan and add grated ginger, boil it and then drink it as a tea.

I personally buy so called shots 

which I always have in my refrigerator on hand or make it pure from juicer.

The shots that I buy are apple and ginger shot from a brand called Sonatural.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Hanna72

[michael12345]

On 7/22/2021 at 12:32 AM, Hanna72 said:

Hi @michael12345

Sorry to hear that you are not doing that good.

Eating ginger is something that might help you with your nausea. 
I myself have used ginger shots to relief nausea. Might help.

Hoping you will get some relief soon 🙏

 

 

Thank you Hanna- will keep you guys updated