jutland86: Advice for a guy from Denmark wanting to taper

[jutland86]

Hi everyone (sorry for the misspellings and bad grammar - I'm from Denmark).

Started on citalopram in 2010/2011 after a longer period of anxiety, where I was afraid that I was going insane. Checked my self for symptoms that I was about to go insane, had anxiety all the time, could'n sleep and could not relax as I constantly had and "what if"-thoughts. I didn't really share it with anyone - just hoped that it would pass. 

I can't remember exactly when I started on citalopram, but It was after visiting my parents for Christmas where I just started crying and was doing really bad. year. I went to see a GP, and I was put on citalopram (after my own wish, because I just wanted to get better). 

 

I didn't get any sessions with a pshycologist until later, and not until I was on 40 mg. I stayed on that dose for a while and then went to a pshycologist. After that I slowly started to feel better and was able to taper to 30 mg, to 20 mg without any problems. A couple of years ago i went down to 10 mg. This was a little harder, but at that time I didn't know about withdrawal. I have been feeling good these past years (still had some problems with tiredness and I have to watch my wieght).

 

I have been talking with a GP every year at checkups about the possibility of me starting to taper, but I haven't feelt that it was the right time until now. So in may ad the advise of my GP I started to skip doses. That didn't go well. I got irritated at my girlfriend, had inner restlessness, burning sensation in the arms, started to having trouble to sleep and about a week after i started to taper I was just feeling overwhelmed and had a feeling of panick once in a while. Then I upped my dose by switching between 10 and 5 mg every other day. That helped, and I started to sleep better and experiencing the windows. But I was afraid that I would screw up the when to take 10 or 5 mg, so I'm now cutting my 10 mg pill into qaurters to take 7,5 mg a day. It seems like I got hit again with the same problems as when i skipped doses.

 

It's a long time since I started on citalopram, but I'm pretty sure that this i withdrawal and not a relapse, because it feels so different from back then. I'm now 35, and I would like to hear if anybody else has had the same problems with skipping doses and cutting in quarters that I have? And where to go from now?

 

I have an appointment with a psychologist in Denmark who is writing a Phd on withdrawal, and I hope that he will be able to get me in the right direction.

 

Kind regards from Denmark

[getofflex]

Hello, and welcome to SA.  We are a peer owned and run forum of people who have been or are getting off of psychiatric drugs.  Congratulations for getting so far in your citalopram taper!  I can see why you are having these symptoms.  Please read on.  

 

First of all, can you please give us specific information about your drug history for all drugs you are on and have been on, especially for the past 18-24 months?  It would be especially helpful to have the details of your drugs in a concise list (no symptoms), only drug names, specific dates (as best you can say for example early March if you don't recall the day) and dosages of each medication decrease or increase.  Please read the link below for instructions.  This will allow us to give you the best guidance.  

 

How to List Drug History in Signature

 

Here is some information about how these drugs actually work.  

 

How Psychiatric Drugs Remodel Your Brain

 

 

This helps you understand what withdrawal syndrome is: 

 

 Video on Recovery from Psych Drugs

 

What is Withdrawal Syndrome?

 

We do not suggest you taper by skipping doses, or by varying doses from day to day.  This causes the levels of the drug in the bloodstream to be inconsistent, and it can significantly destabilize your nervous system, and cause many uncomfortable symptoms.  It is important to take the very same dose each day, at the same time or times of the day.  Not only that, but dropping from 10 mg per day to an average of 7.5 mg per day is a 25% drop, and we suggest no more than a 10% drop.  There are ways to measure very slight changes in dose as described in the link (tips for tapering citalopram) below.  Let us know if you have any questions. 

 

Never Skip Doses to Taper

 

Tapering is best done extremely slowly, and we taper by 10% of the current dose no more than once every 4 weeks, so that the taper becomes exponentially smaller.

 

 Why Taper by 10% of my Dosage  

 

Tips for Tapering citalopram

 

 

Also, as we are recovering, we suggest keeping things slow, simple, and stable. This is extremely important. 

 

Considerations About Stability Stop Jumping Around

 

Keep it Simple, Slow, and Stable

 

 

When we recover, there are times of feeling OK mixed in with times of feeling bad.  This is called windows and waves.

 

Windows and Waves Pattern of Stabilization

 

Here are some techniques to cope with symptoms: 

 

Non Drug Ways to Cope with Withdrawal Symptoms

 

 

We don't suggest many supplements, but 2 that many of us find helpful are magnesium and omega-3 fish oil. Here are the links for info about those. It is suggested to add one at a time, and start with a low dose to see how it affects you. 

Magnesium

 

Omega 3 Fish Oil

 

My suggestion would be to continue taking the 7.5 mg citalopram each and every day, at the same time, for a few months, and allow yourself to stabilize.  Then, when you feel ready, you can resume a very careful and gradual taper.  

 

I've given you quite a bit of information here.  Please read through it, and mull it over, and we will take it from there. In the meantime, take care of yourself, and take heart.  We in this forum have been through this, and we understand first hand the pain and discomfort you are going through.  Please know that the brain is amazing in it's healing abilities.  It takes time, but healing can and will happen. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by getofflex

[Seb1992]

Hi Jutland86 

 

I am also from Denmark but based in London. I was wondering if you could recommend this psychologist?

 

[jozeff]

Hi jutland!

 

Welcome and very wise of you to look for help. Doctors  don't know much about withdrawal unfortunately. They advise to cut in half, skip dose, or cold turkey if you are unlucky.....

 

Since you have been messing around with doses the last couple of months I would indeed try to stabilize on 7.5 mg.

 

I've been taking citalopram  for 4 years now. See my signature  for details. I held for 4 months to stabilize at 10 mg and went from there. I managed to go from 10mg to 8mg in about 3 months and that is the fastest I could do it.

 

Take your time, a couple of months sounds long but actually it is not that long a time for your brain. At first I changed dose and complain here that I didn't feel stable after 10 days....boy did I know little.

 

I wish you all the best!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

 

 

[jutland86]

@getofflex and @jozeff

 

Thank you so much for your advise! I'm doing better now - and I have been able to work and function throughout this bad start to my taper. Tomorrow I will start to dissolve my tablet in water and then meassure out a dose of 7,5 mg more accurate than cutting into quaters. And then I'll hold for as long as it takes to feel stable again. When I start to taper again I will do the 10 pct. pr. month of the last dose.

 

I will dissolve 10 mg in 40 ml of water and then take 30 (7,5 mg). Is my math correct?

 

I will also order and adjustable volume pipetter so I won't have to have multiple syringes to get the correct dose. 

 

I'm really glad I found this site, because if I had just followed the advise of my GP I'm pretty sure I would have ended up a pretty bad place. On the other hand it's kind of weird to think about the fact that it will take so long before I'm completely off citalopram. 

[getofflex]

I'm very happy to hear that you are doing better.  Your plan of action sounds good.  Please remember that time is the best healer of a destabilized nervous system.  I suggest you listen to your body, and not taper until you feel ready to do so.  That is what I do.  

 

Yes, your math is correct.  

 

2 hours ago, jutland86 said:

if I had just followed the advise of my GP I'm pretty sure I would have ended up a pretty bad place

Unfortunately, this is what happens to many on here.  I'm very glad you didn't continue to follow your GP's advice, too.  Please keep us posted.  

[Stardust]

On 6/4/2021 at 11:16 AM, getofflex said:

My suggestion would be to continue taking the 7.5 mg citalopram each and every day, at the same time, for a few months, and allow yourself to stabilize.  Then, when you feel ready, you can resume a very careful and gradual taper.  

Hi Jutland86 -

Here's my advice - Please don't be in such a rush to start your taper again.  I agree with getofflex that if you've been skipping doses because your doctor suggested it,  it would be better for you to let your central nervous system (CNS) settle down before resuming your taper.  You can help soothe your CNS by takin the 7.5mg citalopram regularly, every day for a couple of months and then start your taper.  

I understand wanting to get going because you want to be done with Celexa but you'll be kinder to yourself by taking it very slowly and cautiously.  (I rushed a benzo taper and I paid for it with many months of suffering.)

Take care,

Stardust

[jutland86]

Hi @Stardust.

 

I't really great to get so many replies. What a great community here!

 

I thought that I wasn't in a rush when I began to skip doses at 10, as my GP and I agreed that it would be best to taper very slowly since I have been on citalopram for ca. 10 years. I didn't know that It was a very, very, very fast taper. So yeah, I'm going to stabilize on 7,5 mg for as long as it takes and the take it very slow once I start to taper again. 

 

I have been sleeping better for the last two days, and today I took my first dose as a liquid (to get it more accurate than just cutting pills in quaters).

[jutland86]

So I just started to dissolve my 10 mg pill in 40 ml of water. The pill dissolves rather quickly, but I have noticed that there is some "residue" on the bottom of the glass that I'm using to dissolve the pill. Is it filler or is it part of the active ingredient in the pill? Is it important to get that last residue completely dissolved?

 

On a side note: It seems that I'm very slowly stabilizing. Have been able to get some hours of continous sleep since friday and my other symptomes also seem to have gotten a little better (with windows and waves).

[jozeff]

Citalopram  dissolves pretty quickly indeed. You should get a milky white solution with very small white particles. This could be filler but might also be active ingredient trapped in a lump of filler. You should stirr the solution right before taking 30 ml out.

 

If you let it sit for a minute white residue will precipitate in your beaker/glass.

 

I prepare 7 tubes of solution for the whole weak. I don't have to think about it every day,  just take my solution out of the Refrigerator.

 

I use a stirrer and a volumetric pipette for this so I get pretty accurate solutions. I am a chemist so that is not too hard

 

This is way more accurate than cutting pills. Example: Try to dissolve 3 pills in 120 ml  and create  4 volumes of 30 ml. This way you can take 1 of these solutions for four days in a row without having to prepare anything. You won't loose amy medication  this way also.

 

 

Good luck

 

Cheers

 

jozeff

 

[jutland86]

Thanks @jozeff. My solution isn’t milky white. Actually it’s almost clear except for the white residue in the bottom? These past days I have been stirring it a bit before drawing my dose. Then there where only very small white particels in the solution.

 

I’m not that good at math, so maybe I’ll ask you for help once I start to make Solutions for more days.

 

thanks again!

[jozeff]

No problem!

 

Yes, you have to stirr before drawing your dose.  The solution has to be as homogeneous as possible.

 

I've been making a solution like this for 3 years without a problem.  I do this for my wife also. She takes sertraline which dissolves less well and has more solid particles.  I keep stirring the solution while drawing a dose  just to keep ik homogeneous. 

 

Make sure you shake vigorously if you store your solution in the fridge (when you take it out), it tends to stick to glass surface after a while and especially  when solution is cold.

 

 

[jutland86]

So just a quick update for myself to look back on (and for those who are following).

 

Since my first post I gradually got better and better, so much that I would say that I made it all the way back to "normal". When you are in wd you think that it will never pass, but it does. Slowly and gradually. I noticed how my symptoms got a little better almost each day. And then they actually went away. 

 

But in these last couple of days I have been in a small wave, but I know what brought it on. Saw a couple of friends on friday, and we got drunk (for the first time in a  year due to the pandemic), and then on sunday I went on a hard 100 km bike ride. When I godt hit with withdrawal I noticed that it made my symptoms worse for some time after high effort bike rides. And the ride coupled with the alcohol resulted in a small wave. Nothing at all like when I was hit with WD.

 

But I now know that the wave will pass, and I have some tools to manage it. I'm still holding at 7,5 mg at the moment, and I will be doing so for a couple of months as I have a holiday coming up and the fact that I will be moving soon.

 

Take care

[getofflex]

3 hours ago, jutland86 said:

Since my first post I gradually got better and better, so much that I would say that I made it all the way back to "normal".

I'm so glad to hear this, Jutland.  

 

3 hours ago, jutland86 said:

Saw a couple of friends on friday, and we got drunk (for the first time in a  year due to the pandemic), and then on sunday I went on a hard 100 km bike ride.

Yes, hard exercise and alcohol can definitely throw off our sensitive nervous systems.  It's good that you recognize this.  

 

3 hours ago, jutland86 said:

But I now know that the wave will pass, and I have some tools to manage it. I'm still holding at 7,5 mg at the moment, and I will be doing so for a couple of months as I have a holiday coming up and the fact that I will be moving soon.

It sounds like you have a great perspective and attitude.  I applaud your patience for waiting to taper again.  I'm assuming you will wait until after you settle into your new place to taper.  

[jutland86]

@getofflex Thanks!

 

In regards to the alcohol and exercise: My body was tired after it, and it felt like my mind recognized it as physical symptoms of anxiety and then started acting upon it. I'm still sleeping well, and I'm just trying to accept it, and tell myself that it's only thought and try to just let them pass by. This helped when I was in WD after my cut from 10 mg. The thing that gives me confidence is that my WD symptoms resolved after my first cut, and the symptoms where a lot worse back then.

 

And yes, I'll wait for my next taper until I have settled in my new place and just enjoy the summer and my upcomming vacation. And then the plan is to make a small cut (I'm thinking 5 pct.), when I'm ready, and then see how my body reacts to it and then adjust my taper schedule from there.

[getofflex]

On 7/22/2021 at 12:58 AM, jutland86 said:

I'm just trying to accept it, and tell myself that it's only thought and try to just let them pass by.

Excellent coping skill.  We at SA call this floating.  I use this as well.  

 

It sounds like you have a good strong plan in place.  

[jutland86]

So just a update: I think my wave have subsided (the symptoms have gone away), but it has been replaced by anxiety about tapering to a point where I'm kind of obsessing about it. I have read a lot on this forum just to inform myself, and on my journey I have read a lot of stories from people who are really suffering.

 

The things that I have read tend to pop up in my head and make me anxious to the point where it has affected my sleep. I fall a slepp

And that has made me afraid of the whole proces. A fear of the unknown I guess, because it seems like a lot of people here are suffering a lot even though they are following the SA-protocol. 

 

Any advice/input on how to deal with this issue would be more than welcome.

 

I think that one way to ease this anxiety would be to do a small drop from 7,5 mg to 7 mg and find out for my self, that it's not that bad. But I'm moving in the near future, and I don't think that would be such a good idea at the moment. And I don't know if it is at all a smart move to taper, if I'm feeling anxious.

 

BTW: I have been holding at 7,5 mg since the beginning of june

[Stardust]

Hi Jutland,

 

I agree with you that it would best to wait until after your move to make another cut.  Once you feel settled into your new environment and routine would be best in my opinion.  

I understand about the anxiety.  For me, staying busy and trying to shift my focus to activities, projects etc., even mundane things like tidying your space and cleaning - this helps me break the circuit that feeds into my anxiety.  Anxiety is always looking for something to latch onto - shifting your attention elsewhere can really help.  

Do you meditate?  I highly recommend the Headspace app.  Many people like the Calm app too.  Practicing meditation (and remember it's practice!) everyday has made a real difference for me. It takes time to feel the benefit but it's truly worth it.

 

Take care,

Stardust

[jutland86]

Hi @Stardust thanks for stopping bye. Yes, I will be holding until after I've settled in.

 

Thanks for the advice about meditation. Really appreciate it. I have been meditating up until recently, and it really helped. I don't know why I stopped doing it. But I'll be doing it tonight. I have been using the Calm app, and they have a good series of meditations for anxiety, so I'll be doing that again.

 

And then I think that I'll need to stop reading so many stories here. It's a really great site with an abundance of knowledge, but some of the stories here tends to trigger me a lot. 

 

 

[getofflex]

6 hours ago, jutland86 said:

And then I think that I'll need to stop reading so many stories here. It's a really great site with an abundance of knowledge, but some of the stories here tends to trigger me a lot. 

 

This sounds like a good plan.  As a moderator, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority of people come in here during and after a too fast taper or a cold turkey, due to bad advice from health care professionals. If you taper the way that SA suggests, you should have minimal to no withdrawal symptoms.  It's great that you have been holding for the past 2 months.  I think it would be wisest to wait until after you move, and then you settle in after the move to make another dose reduction.  You can always do a 5% reduction instead of 10%, or you can do the Brassmonkey Slide Method of Microtapering, which is even gentler on the system.  Here is a link to that: 

 

Brassmonkey Slide Method of Micro Tapering

[jutland86]

Hi @getofflex

 

Thank you very much for your advice and perspective about tapering - that the majority of people here come to the site after or during a too fast taper or cold turkey. I will wait until I have settled in at the new place, and then I'll use the time in between to work on my the anxiety and my nervousness about tapering.

 

Luckily I found this site before it all went too bad for me. So I have to remind my self that I'm in a good position, and the fact that I haven't been polydrugged and only been on one medication will make it somewhat easier for me.

 

Thank you for all the great work that you and the other moderators are doing.

 

 

[getofflex]

9 hours ago, jutland86 said:

Hi @getofflex

 

Thank you very much for your advice and perspective about tapering - that the majority of people here come to the site after or during a too fast taper or cold turkey. I will wait until I have settled in at the new place, and then I'll use the time in between to work on my the anxiety and my nervousness about tapering.

 

Luckily I found this site before it all went too bad for me. So I have to remind my self that I'm in a good position, and the fact that I haven't been polydrugged and only been on one medication will make it somewhat easier for me.

 

Thank you for all the great work that you and the other moderators are doing.

 

 

You’re welcome.  You sound like you are doing very well and have a strong attitude.  It’s great that you will work on your anxiety.  I’m currently working on mind doing a workbook called mind body workbook for PTSD.   

[jutland86]

Thank you @getofflex and right back at you. I have read your introduction, and I'm really impressed. You have done so well! 

[getofflex]

thanks, @jutland86.  It is because I followed the advice of SA, and slowed my taper way, way down.  I listen to my body to see when I'm able to reduce my dose again.  I was a mess in WD when I first got here.  

[Zim337]

Hi Jutland, I did the same as you, read a lot about other ppls terrible wd and got scared. I had to stop reading that. I’m down from 40 to 30 now, and since I’m having some wd I’ll stay here til I’m better. Meditation seems to help a lot, I’ll have to try again. 

Wish you all the best, hang in there!

[jutland86]

Just a quick update for myself or those who might be following: Haven't been thinking about tapering for a almost a year and have been doing good. At the end of june I decided to just try to lower my dose, so I went from 7,5 mg to 7,25. Didn't experience any symptoms, so I recently made a new reduction from 7,25 mg to 6,75 mg. So far so good and no symptoms  I plan on just taking it slow and steady.

[Stardust]

@jutland86 So glad to hear you're doing so well!   Looks like you found a strategy that really works for you. Great news!

 

Take care,

Stardust

 

P.S.  Since you're in Denmark, thought I'd mention that I just finished watching all four seasons of Borgen - what a great show!

[jutland86]

Thanks, @Stardust Yeah, it's a great show. Have you watched the very last season, where she is secretary of state?

[Stardust]

@jutland86 Yes!  I thought it was excellent and the finale was beautifully done.  Sad it's over!

[bunchesofoats]

Hey @jutland86, great to see your taper was moving well in August! You've made lots of progress. How is it going now?

[jutland86]

Hi @bunchesofoats. Thanks for the check in. Still doing good. No anxiety, no imsomnia - just living life.

 

I have not been reducing for a while until today, where I reduced to 6,25 mg. I don’t expect it will cause any withdrawal, but I’m just taking it slow.

[Stardust]

Hi Jutland,

Just stopping by to say hi and see you're doing.  Hope it's going well.

Take care,

Stardust

[jutland86]

Hi @Stardust,

 

Thanks for checking in. I'm doing good. I have been on 6,25 mg for a while. The drop from 6,5 to 6,25 was pretty uneventful, but I'm holding at the moment. Think I will take the next step in january, and then I'll be down to 5,75 mg. 

Kind regards

Alexander

[jozeff]

Way to go @jutland86!

 

You have been very consistent in your tapering.  Looks like you are right on track.

Going down mg by mg seems very slow but when you look back it is fantastic to see that you have been decreasing by 1.5 mg already.  Your taper is slow but steady and I believe you saved yourself quite some trouble with that.

 

Good luck with your taper!

 

Cheers

 

Jozeff

[jutland86]

Hi @jozeff

 

Thanks for the encouragement and for all the help along the way. Yeah, slow and steady wins the race. The method i'm using at the moment is going down on ml at a time with a 10 mg pill dissolved in 40 ml of water, so the drops get bigger along the way. I plan on using this method until I hit 10 pct., and if I'm able to tolerate that i'll stick with 10 pct. 

 

You are down to 2.05 mg! Way to go. How are things going?

 

Kind regards

[jozeff]

Very smart of yours. Slow is the way to go.

 

I'm doing relatively well. To be honest I've not felt like myself since 2018 apart from a couple of months total.

 

I still cannot cry, my libido is very low, I have a lot of fatigue and aching muscles.  I don't know if it's the tapering or just the way my life is at the moment.  I have a three year and a eleven year old son and that costs a lot of energy. I have been sleeping awful for at least 3 years in a row. That doesn't help either.

 

Indeed down to 2.05 mg citalopram. Woehoe! I hope to be med free in about 2 years. Have been tapering for 3.5 years in a row now. If I ever had to it all over again I would never have touched the poison.

 

Well, good luck and cheers!

 

Jozeff