Oaktree1: tapering from Remeron while dealing with Cymbalta withdrawal

[arbor]

Thank you @Oaktree1  This means a lot to me.  Also, I think you're wise to stay at the 5% reduction.  (I'm warmed to hear that you have your mum💗)

You're in my thoughts,

Arbor

[Oaktree1]

I am exploring the site at the moment and found this  discussion.  I have re-posted it here.  It made me sit up a bit.  There are people like myself coming onto this site looking for hope and a bit of support.  If all they get is negativity and doom like what I posted above I suppose it's not very helpful.  I have to be honest -  I have been a bit remiss is not fully reading up on all of the links I was provided by Arbor and Grateful.  I tend to ruminate on past wrongs a lot and then I just vomited it out in two of my last posts.  I suppose I want a record of what happened to me as I do think what happens to people in the psychiatric system is criminal and de-humanising and I thought that perhaps this site is a way of witnessing that.  

 

That's not much help to people trying to get off drugs including myself.  So I found the link to this discussion a bit of a tonic.

The main thing I have drawn from it for me personally is the need to self sooth.  I still can't really do it that well so I tend to rely on other people to do it for me so that's been a pattern with me - addiction to counsellors and peer support groups among other things.   

https://www.survivingantidepressants.org/topic/9940-on-not-investing-in-drama-yours-or-other-peoples/

 

[arbor]

Dear @Oaktree1,

I haven't found your posts to be too negative.  We're invited to share our situations.  Self-soothing is a helpful habit.  Still, while we're in recovery, mutual support is, in my opinion, very healing.  It wasn't until recently that trauma studies included women.  One of the interesting things shown was that fight and flight are not the only responses to stress.  A third, "tend and befriend" is also used, often by women, but by men as well.  I also notice that animals can extend this to each other and humans.  I think the site shows that by extending compassion we strengthen it in ourselves and others.  We're healing, together.  That makes the ability to self-soothe easier, at least for me.  I'm grateful to your posts🙂

Best wishes, Arbor💗

[Oaktree1]

On 9/28/2021 at 8:03 PM, arbor said:

Dear @Oaktree1,

 Still, while we're in recovery, mutual support is, in my opinion, very healing.  It wasn't until recently that trauma studies included women. 

Thanks @arbor

 

I am hoping your sleep is a bit better.

 

I suppose I meant that I posted about my psychiatric history and suicidal feelings on a few occasions here.  I didn't actually read the guidelines until a few days ago and in the discussion I posted above it is stated somewhere along the conversation that the site is not a support site for those mental health issues but rather a site for coming off psychiatric drugs.   

 

 I just don't want to put anyone under pressure by posting continually without trying to put some of the advice I was given into practice.   I do find your and Grateful's  posts very comforting but don't want to be too demanding given that you both dealing with withdrawal and iatrogenic damage yourselves.  

 

On the subject of trauma that you mention above I am reading Bessel Van der Kolk's 'The Body keeps the Score' at the moment.  I also treated myself to the book you recommended in another post 'The Book of Woe' by Garry Greenberg.  It was too good to pass up on. It appears to be full of humour about the ridiculous way the DSM has been cobbled together.  I could do with having some laughs about it – it beats crying.  (the library service near me closed down completely with the pandemic – I have books on request for over a year now that have not arrived – Ireland is rubbish). 

 

I just finished Johann Hari’s ‘Lost Connections’ which I highly recommend.  You may already know of him – he’s a journalist who took anti-depressants for years, became disillusioned with them and began to look for alternatives.  He travelled all over the world to meet people who were suffering from severe emotional distress and overcame it by fostering a sense of community through a common purpose.   I suppose to some extent it’s what happens on this site that you refer to – mutual support.

 

Anyway I’m still at 5% reduction and will be staying there for the next few weeks.  I gave up the acupuncture (bleeding from the head was terrifying) and started a Tai Chi class.  When I feel really caged I go up the hills and walk.  I did it today in clouds and sheets of rain but it was either that or stay in the house.  The rumination continues up the mountain unfortunately but at least I am moving.  I watch at least 3 hours of television daily – sometimes it’s the only way I can switch off the rumination a bit.  I gave up alcohol two months ago and will be staying off it.  I cut back on caffeine to no more than four cups a day and don’t drink it after 6pm.   My feelings are worse in the late afternoon and when I wake up in the morning.  The only time I feel ok is after my coffee in the morning and in the hour before I got to bed.  I think it's because the day is over and it's dark and I don't have to compare myself with anyone if most people are in bed.  

 

The worst problem now is the bloody rumination.  My mind goes on and on and on and on about things I can't do anything about.  It gets so that I find it hard to do normal household stuff as my mind just takes over – it’s like I don’t notice my body at all.   Then I talk out loud to myself to centre myself.  The talk is generally a recitation of all the stuff that went wrong and fantasies of what I would say to various people.  It's the same monologue every single time.   It gives me the same sense of security that saying a prayer used to do when I believed in a god.    I would love to just stay in the damn moment.  See the iron and the ironing board and just hear the sound of the steam and just that but I get bored and then I get panicky and then it's on to the old internet to distract myself multiple times a day.

 

anyway that you again for in kind words - I like the sentence below.

On 9/28/2021 at 8:03 PM, arbor said:

I think the site shows that by extending compassion we strengthen it in ourselves and others.  We're healing, together

 Wishing you a good sleep @arbor

 

Oaktree1

[arbor]

Thank you for sharing @Oaktree1 I appreciate hearing what you're reading and thinking, and how things are going.

You're probably aware of these links, but I'll include them anyway.  They address the fact that ruminating thoughts are really amplified during w/d.  Remember none of them are you, and even if you can't control their bubbling up, that's not a sign of weakness.  It will get better as you heal.  In the meantime, working with them compassionately is useful.  Don't bother arguing with them.  In my view, that part of the brain is currently highly stressed.  Be kind to all aspects of yourself as you endure this huge (what I find unbelievably huge) part of the process.  I acknowledge your heart and courage as your nervous system recovers.

Withdrawal causing repetitive or intrusive thoughts, rumination ...

Mindfulness and Acceptance - Symptoms and self-care

3 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

Wishing you a good sleep

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!

Arbor💗

[Oaktree1]

@arbor

 

Doing very badly the last few days.  I think my problems perhaps should go on the depression forum that Altostrato linked to in a post I read.  I  feel dreadfully alone and abandoned.   The anxiety is so bad that I am finding it hard to move - to do things like clean and exercise.  I feel sometimes that the loneliness will suffocate me.  All the people I loved bar one are dead.  I am frightened of most of my family of origin.   

 

I knew a girl once through another mental health group.  Her mum had died and she was the only person that cared for her.  This girl was 'bipolar' and 'saw things' occasionally.  As a result of this her siblings disallowed her from having any contact with her nieces and nephews.  She was barely tolerated.  I am in a similar situation - I don't 'see' or 'hear' things but I did have a psychotic break in my twenties for one month.  Ever since I first entered psychiatric services I became an embarrassment.  I think to be honest that if lobotomy had been available most of my family of origin would have been happy to have me put away and have had that procedure done.  

 

I don't know how much of this despair is linked to the psychotropic drugs to be honest and how much is due to life circumstances and the damaged person I am.   As I can't divide the two - am I better just to probably stay on the drug given the psychological state I am in now and just comment further solely in relation to 'neuro emotions' or find a depression support group?   I have read all the links - I still can't tell the difference between 'neuro' and normal emotions as I have been on drugs for 14 years now.   

 

I was abused as a kid.  It's weird that I was in the mental health system for 5 years in my twenties and it was never dealt with.  I actually reconnected and tried to have a relationship for years with the abuser - I loved them - but I never mattered to them.   A therapist once compared me to Miss Havisham - another one said that it was difficult to be hopeful for a positive prognosis for me.    I feel I am kind of coming to the end of the road and have run out of options.  Even on this site - no one else has commented bar yourself as a mentor and the other person that did comment doesn't anymore.  Kind of the story of my life to be honest.     

 

Not threatening to off myself or anything - I just don't know anymore which is which - neuro emotion or 'mental illness' and whether I would be better off going on a depression site.

[arbor]

Dear @Oaktree1

I'm really sorry you're having such a rough day.  If I were you, I'd opt for neuro-emotion rather than mental illness, and just chuck the notion of mental illness into the garbage.  If you feel like it, check out the self-care section, and see if there are others dealing with similar issues.  W/d is excruciating.  Don't let it mess with your mind any more than it already will be.

Thinking of you, sweet-one,

Arbor 

[Greatful]

@Oaktree1  Hi Oaktree,  

I am sorry that you are struggling with this alone. 

I am sorry that I haven't been here as much lately,  I have been going through a rough patch myself.  I can really relate to the rumination.  I have a really hard time focusing at times too.  Sometimes the thoughts so overwhelming.  But try to remember your thoughts are very morphed and common sense goes out the window.  I also have a lot of work to heal in front of me.  I have childhood trauma mixed in with wd also and it makes it a tough combo to work through at the same time.   

It really sounds like you are working hard to get through each day, finding things to occupy the time, trying to stay above water.  That is all any of us can do, just get through the days until are brains heal.

Have you reached out to other members?  I know sometimes just talking to others is helpful and soothing.  

If you want to talk to me you can tag me and I will respond.

Please be kind to yourself.  You are doing everything you can for yourself right now.  Some how someway we will make it through this one day at a time.

My heart goes out to you.❤️

 

[Oaktree1]

16 hours ago, Greatful said:

@Oaktree1  Hi Oaktree,  

 

I am sorry that I haven't been here as much lately,  I have been going through a rough patch myself.  I can really relate to the rumination.  I have a really hard time focusing at times too.  Sometimes the thoughts so overwhelming.  But try to remember your thoughts are very morphed and common sense goes out the window.  I also have a lot of work to heal in front of me.  I have childhood trauma mixed in with wd also and it makes it a tough combo to work through at the same time.   

 

Thanks @Grateful for commenting - I thought it was 'me' as usual.  I haven't really reached out to others here - I just read the discussions.   I am sorry you have childhood trauma - well... sorry is not really a proper word for what happens to a vulnerable child  and the damage that does...  I am at the foothills of healing - maybe I'm not even at the foothills - I am probably at the entrance car park of healing.   I think you are up the lower part of the mountain.  

❤️

[Oaktree1]

17 hours ago, arbor said:

Dear @Oaktree1

I'm really sorry you're having such a rough day.  If I were you, I'd opt for neuro-emotion rather than mental illness, and just chuck the notion of mental illness into the garbage.  If you feel like it, check out the self-care section, and see if there are others dealing with similar issues.  W/d is excruciating.  Don't let it mess with your mind any more than it already will be.

Thinking of you, sweet-one,

Arbor 

Thanks @arbor,

 

It's just that I had the issues before I was put on the drugs in my twenties and then I was off the drugs for 12 years but the issues were never dealt with.  I can't even really remember what I felt like off drugs now as I've been on them so long.  I find the only thing that makes me feel less lonely is going on sites like this one, Mad in America and there's an online conference every Sunday now about Soteria House and besides this site there is Inner Compass and Drop the Disorder.     

 

When you live in an environment where the bio medical model reigns it's like a lifeline to see and hear people who have had similar experiences to me or clinicians who question that model.   When your reality is denied over and over it's hard to continue to exist.   The psychiatrist relative told my mother that I was a 'rapid cycler' too.  I have just read Laura Delano's story in Will Hall's free book and she got given that epithet too after being stuck on a raft of drugs.   She appears to have had family around her though to support her while she healed.  My family of origin support that model - even my mother says when I get overwrought says 'I think you need to take something'.  She is on a raft of stuff herself.  I have less and less to say to them.  

 

I am very reluctant to try psychotherapy or counselling again having had very bad experiences with various practitioners over the course of my life.  I have seen over six of them.  Only one was of any real help and validated what I had been through.  In the past few years though she has become risk averse and when I was distressed in the past year directed me towards my primary care doctor and psychiatric services even though I had made her aware of my opposition to that model.  Obviously they are her boundaries now so I respect that and only contact her about a specific query now.   All the in person peer support networks and 'mental health' charities are bio-medically based too bar one which was not a safe environment.

 

Your kind words and endearment though has given me a bit of a lift.  Sometimes I feel like I am in the Antarctic at night; it's pitch black and the wind is howling and whistling around me; there is no place where I can shelter but this site and others and replies from you and others are like a torch I can turn on occasionally.   

 

Thank you Arbor 💓

[JesusSavemefromWD]

I am sorry for what you have been through in ur life but I think the major harm is coming from these evil drugs. I have never had any trauma in my life, had wonderful parents and great childhood, later creating my own happy family… no issues at all, just some chest tightness due to work stress…. 3.5 weeks on Zoloft is all it took to convert me into “ a mentally very sick person” with a plethora of severe symptoms which make every day a mental anguish… I still hope time will heal both of us … stay strong and reach out whenever u need to. 

[ScottishLass]

Hi there @Oaktree1 I hope you don’t mind me popping by. I was just reading your thread. I  couldn’t help but notice some similarities with my experience and thought I’d share/ask if that's ok? I was on cymbalta for 7 years. I’ve just had a recent pretty terrible WD from that and am now bridging with Prozac....not sure how successfully as yet. Some of the things you talked about really resonated. The suicidality when I was WD from Cymbalta took me by complete surprise and was very frightening and distressing, unlike my usual self so I feel for you there. I was also interested in the skin issues. I’ve never had skin issues until a few years on Cymbalta and then I suddenly seemed to become allergic to everything, creams, metals, cosmetics, foods on and on. Skin wise a year or so ago whilst still on cymbalta I developed some kind of dermatitis/eczema on my hands and then feet?. To the point where there was almost no skin left on my hands. They were bloody, sore, itchy and painful. The skin issue became so severe that I was put on wacking doses of oral steroids (prednisolone) for months. Then what happened in my hands began also in my feet. It never became as severe...but the same thing as the hands.  I also got a really bad scalp.  I’m now wondering given your experience if it’s down to the cymbalta? The other thing that seemed to plague me, whilst on cymbalta (paradoxically) was muscle and joint pain which intensified in WD.  The skin issues though really make me wonder?? Is it from Cymbalta.  I never had any skin issues until on that drug. Except coincidentally, a rash on my chest from Lamotrigine, which as you were also, I was told to stop. As you did, I tried it again and the rash came back and at that point I was told I couldn’t take it again. Anyway, sorry for the ramble.  I hope you find some stability. People are right in saying you’re courageous.  So many warriors on this site. 😊 sending you kind thoughts on your journey. 

SL

[Hanna72]

Hi @Oaktree1

I want to tell you how sorry I am that you are struggling, and what you have had to endure in life. 
I think life circumstances play a big role in how we perceive ourselves in life, and incidents that we have gone through. We identify ourselves with the hardship we have gone through and start to label ourselves with all kinds of “diagnoses “ which in fact are normal emotions when life is extremely hard and unfair. I agree with arbor that you should not look at yourself as a mentally ill person, rather a human being that has gone through really hard times and you are trying your best to live and learn about those feelings and in withdrawal these feelings can be really hard to deal with, so please be kind to yourself.

Having feelings and thoughts  of all sorts is absolutely normal, what is important though is how you react towards them. I find when I am overwhelmed with them, to take a step back and breathe through them until it settles. Distraction is also one of my go to coping skill. Don’t get caught up in it , I know it’s harder said then done, but with practice it gets better. I often tell myself that I have to reprogram my thoughts and rewrite the story of my identity of myself in my head.

 

Small steps in the right direction, can turn out to be

the biggest step of your life!

 

Never give up hope, have faith in yourself, when we struggle, the human mind and body is extremely resilient, you already are! 

 

Hugs sent your way.💕

[Oaktree1]

1 hour ago, ScottishLass said:

Hi there @Oaktree1 I was on cymbalta for 7 years. I’ve just had a recent pretty terrible WD from that and am now bridging with Prozac....not sure how successfully as yet. Some of the things you talked about really resonated. The suicidality when I was WD from Cymbalta took me by complete surprise and was very frightening and distressing, unlike my usual self so I feel for you there. I was also interested in the skin issues. I’ve never had skin issues until a few years on Cymbalta and then I suddenly seemed to become allergic to everything, creams, metals, cosmetics, foods on and on. Skin wise a year or so ago whilst still on cymbalta I developed some kind of dermatitis/eczema on my hands and then feet?. To the point where there was almost no skin left on my hands. They were bloody, sore, itchy and painful. The skin issue became so severe that I was put on wacking doses of oral steroids (prednisolone) for months. Then what happened in my hands began also in my feet. It never became as severe...but the same thing as the hands.  I also got a really bad scalp.  I’m now wondering given your experience if it’s down to the cymbalta? The other thing that seemed to plague me, whilst on cymbalta (paradoxically) was muscle and joint pain which intensified in WD.  The skin issues though really make me wonder?? Is it from Cymbalta.  I never had any skin issues until on that drug. Except coincidentally, a rash on my chest from Lamotrigine, which as you were also, I was told to stop. As you did, I tried it again and the rash came back and at that point I was told I couldn’t take it again. Anyway, sorry for the ramble.  I hope you find some stability. People are right in saying you’re courageous.  So many warriors on this site. 😊 sending you kind thoughts on your journey. 

SL

Hi ScottishLass,

 

I don't mind you dropping by at all and having read a few pages of your thread I do see some similarities with what I experienced in terms of the terrors you experienced having been effectively cold turkeyed off it by your doctor.  My sympathies go out to you with what you have been experiencing over the past while - it is awful and could have been avoided if you were never given those drugs.  I hope things improve for you...

 

In regards specifically to the skin issues - I have more or less the same issues as yourself - it started with my hands - my fingers started to split and did not heal up; then the scaling and splitting moved to my feet as it did with you - my feet would split and bleed.  My scalp was the last area to be affected; this only happened in the past year; currently I have to switch my shampoo every time because I never know when I will get an allergic reaction.   Apart from my scalp my hands and feet have improved quite a bit but I still have sensitive, tender hands and can't handle any sort of metal.  I can't wear a metal zip for example.  It hurts my hands to brush against the zip.  However the severe splitting and bleeding seemed to resolve roughly a year ago.   For a few months after the withdrawal my fingers were like grated Parmesan cheese - all white scales and my nails were yellow.  Like you I was put on steroids -  not internal Prenisone -  but I tried every cream going.  All creams proved useless until I found Aveeno Dermexa Hand balm - I swear by this.  I put it on my feet too.

This skin issue happened in March 2018 and I had been on Cymbalta since April 2014 - so roughly 4 years.  I am off it now since February 2019 nearly 2 and a half years. 

 

But I am also on Remerone which is an anti histamine at lower doses.  I had tapered my Remerone down to 3.75mg on the 1/1/17 but I upped it to 7.5mg again in June 2020 after which time my eczema seemed to gradually improve.  This could be because the histamine receptors are being blocked again by Remerone.

 

I can't say for definite whether it's the Remeron or the Cymbalta which caused the skin issues unfortunately - I wish I could...but given that you developed them while taking Cymbalta in your case it seems to be clearly the Cymbalta.  Dreadful that you ended up having to take steroids because of it for the eczema.  Cymbalta is the worst drug I was ever put on.  

 

If it's any comfort to you and touching a lot of wood while writing,  my muscle and joint pain has improved a lot over the past two months...

 

I hope you get a few windows in the next while 🙂

 

Oaktree1

Oaktree1

[Oaktree1]

20 hours ago, Hanna72 said:

Hi @Oaktree1

I want to tell you how sorry I am that you are struggling, and what you have had to endure in life. 
I think life circumstances play a big role in how we perceive ourselves in life, and incidents that we have gone through. We identify ourselves with the hardship we have gone through and start to label ourselves with all kinds of “diagnoses “ which in fact are normal emotions when life is extremely hard and unfair. I agree with arbor that you should not look at yourself as a mentally ill person, rather a human being that has gone through really hard times and you are trying your best to live and learn about those feelings and in withdrawal these feelings can be really hard to deal with, so please be kind to yourself.

Having feelings and thoughts  of all sorts is absolutely normal, what is important though is how you react towards them. I find when I am overwhelmed with them, to take a step back and breathe through them until it settles. Distraction is also one of my go to coping skill. Don’t get caught up in it , I know it’s harder said then done, but with practice it gets better. I often tell myself that I have to reprogram my thoughts and rewrite the story of my identity of myself in my head.

 

Small steps in the right direction, can turn out to be

the biggest step of your life!

 

Never give up hope, have faith in yourself, when we struggle, the human mind and body is extremely resilient, you already are! 

 

Hugs sent your way.💕

Dear Hanna72,

 

Thank you very much for that very enlightening and kind reply - I have read it a few times.  

 

"We identify ourselves with the hardship we have gone through and start to label ourselves with all kinds of “diagnoses “ which in fact are normal emotions when life is extremely hard and unfair.  I agree with arbor that you should not look at yourself as a mentally ill person, rather a human being that has gone through really hard times and you are trying your best to live and learn about those feelings and in withdrawal these feelings can be really hard to deal with, so please be kind to yourself." 

 

I felt a bit more able to be a bit more compassionate  towards myself after reading those sentences. 

Oaktree 🙂   

[Oaktree1]

21 hours ago, JesusSavemefromWD said:

I am sorry for what you have been through in ur life but I think the major harm is coming from these evil drugs. I have never had any trauma in my life, had wonderful parents and great childhood, later creating my own happy family… no issues at all, just some chest tightness due to work stress…. 3.5 weeks on Zoloft is all it took to convert me into “ a mentally very sick person” with a plethora of severe symptoms which make every day a mental anguish… I still hope time will heal both of us … stay strong and reach out whenever u need to. 

Thanks so much JesusSaveme for replying to my post.   I agree with you about the harm from the drugs.  I never needed to be put on them in the first place years ago when I was first taken to see a psychiatrist.  I was suffering from intense feelings of shame and self disgust because I could not become intimate with anyone and had repeatedly failed at a career I had wanted since I was child.   I can see now that those emotional reactions were normal responses to loss.   If I had seen a decent counsellor at that time, things might have turned out differently.   Once I was on the drugs though - it was a downward slope and things happened to me that never would have happened if I hadn't been on them - I was never suicidal until I was put on Paxil; I became psychotic on Dothiepin in the early 1990's - I haven't been psychotic since.   All of these emotional states which had far reaching consequences for my life would never have happened if I hadn't been put on these drugs and that's before we ever get into the difficulties of withdrawal.   

 

I really hope that your symptoms from Zoloft begin to improve; I totally relate to the 'severe symptoms that make every day a mental anguish'.  

 

Thank you for postings 🙂

 

 

[Overwhelmedlady]

Hi  @Oaktree1I am posting in your thread now. You are not alone. Loneliness and isolation make things worse, that's for sure.But you have some very kind people answering to your posts. I don't have many people following me either but there is always someone who will eventually reach out.I hope you can get through this, I can see you had

Difficult issues to deal with in life and had to endure a lot of pain.You are strong and I am sure you will feel better at some point. 

 

 

[Greatful]

   Hi@Oaktree1, I'm stopping by to see how you are doing? 

[Oaktree1]

Hi @Grateful

 

Thanks - that is very good of you.  I have been trying to manage as best as I can.  I have been slowly reducing the Mirt using the brass monkey taper that you recommended a while back and went down from 7.5 mg on the 16th September  incrementally over the last two months after transitioning to liquid Mirt back on the 6th of August for six weeks.  That was a bumpy ride getting used to that and it was only in the sixth week that I stabilised but I think it doesn't trouble other people at all.  That's individual biochemistry  for you I suppose.

 

 I am at 6.78 mg.   That's a 10% reduction of the dose.  I am going at a snail's pace and will keep doing that.  I'll probably be at 6.78mg for another week as I was very low and agitated yesterday but today I am a bit better.   I did think of joining a walking group but with the joint issues I don't know if I would be able to keep up - I will have to think about it.  

 

I HATE the weekends - that is when the sense of loneliness and inadequacy is worst but the weekdays are ok.    I am looking at YEARS!  I try to keep busy within the Covid limits.  It got very bad over here again where I am from so I have started to cocoon a bit or cancel the group activities indoors.

 

I still live with suicidal ideation every day - not all the time but at some times of the day it's worse than others and I just watch it basically like I'm watching a film.    Who knows - Covid may get me first.  There's a certain fatalism about things for me now.  

 

I hope @arbor is ok - I don't see her posting much at the moment.  

 

I follow your own posts from time to time.  It seems to me when I view your own page that you are like someone in the ocean riding the waves and troughs but allowing it to wash over you i.e. to experience it and not fight it.  I think you're doing pretty good from where I am standing.  

 

Thanks again @Grateful for checking in   with me 💓

[Greatful]

@Oaktree1

You sound a little better.  I am glad to here the steadiness in your voice.   I know, I know that doesn't mean it is a bed of roses.  The days can still be tough even when you are in a peek-a-boo window.   It's a good sign that things are improving slightly if you are talking about interacting with other people.  Do you walk at all by yourself?  When you are ready you will make the step and try it.  Who knows there maybe someone even slower then you.

 

I try to ride the waves or sometimes it fills like a tsunami, but believe me all you would have to do is talk to my hubby and let him tell you of all my melt downs and craziness.  But you do find that some how,  once in awhile you get to come up for quick breath before the next one.   When they hit you feel like the when you were new here  on SA, full of panic and fear of what is going on with you.  The only thing difference is that after a few months of the whole process, you start to see what the seasoned veterans here on SA try to tell you,  that your thoughts are just that and they do pass if you just learn to look at them without reacting.   I was telling my hubby this morning, How does your mind know how to pepper you with thoughts trying to trigger you into obsessing, neg thought about yourself, past things that normally trigger you, sadness, it just keeps at it, trying to latch on to something.  If you can get to the point of watching this happen it is almost funny.  But very tiresome.   

 

I struggle with depression on and off and the unworthiness feeling is always lingering in the back ground.  I am glad that the SI is not a constant for you.  Again this is just a thought, but  that's all it is and letting it come and go is so helpful.......

 

You could always drop over to  Arbor's  thread and see how see is doing.  I feel like the mods have been pretty busy with new members....

Do you ever read the new intro's from the newbies.  Sad, very sad,  The panic, and fear in some of them is so sad.  

 

You are doing a super job getting through this especially with very little or no support.  You have my admiration. 

[Oaktree1]

4 hours ago, Greatful said:

@Oaktree1

  The only thing difference is that after a few months of the whole process, you start to see what the seasoned veterans here on SA try to tell you,  that your thoughts are just that and they do pass if you just learn to look at them without reacting.   I was telling my hubby this morning, How does your mind know how to pepper you with thoughts trying to trigger you into obsessing, neg thought about yourself, past things that normally trigger you, sadness, it just keeps at it, trying to latch on to something.  If you can get to the point of watching this happen it is almost funny.  But very tiresome.   

 

 

Thanks @Grateful,  

 

That paragraph is really good, really sums things up.   

 

I don't tend to look at the stores of the newbies as most of them are in such distress it fills me with sadness and I am just trying to float on the surface at present.  I tend to be very reactive - if I see or hear something I'm apt to start bawling crying etc.  For example the thousands of refugees that were flown to the Polish Belarusian border expressly to provoke the European Union; they were lied to and told they'd get passage into Europe.  Now there are thousands of them all  photographed standing there in the cold.  Well I just bawled my eyes out at that but that's of no use - I can't actually do anything about it.  Living on a disability payment as I am giving lots of money to refugee charities isn't much of an option so it's a pretty useless and self indulgent emotion and being locked down with a vulnerable adult during Covid gives me even less option.  But you get the drift. .. if I saw something else I probably start bawling or shouting about it too...  

 

Anyway the 'meltdowns and craziness' you refer to -  I totally relate -  but I have to try to keep a lid on it because as you already know I've not a huge amount of support.

 

I do walk by myself - actually hate doing it but I turn on a tracking and speed app and just get it done.  The walking groups where I am are really fit people - they have walking poles and go up mountains - that sort of thing.  To be honest I have so little self confidence now particularly after being shut in for nearly 2 years that the thought of even walking in a group for a few hours fills me with fear.  There was an easy walk on last weekend but I could not work up the courage to go.  I have had so many bad experiences with people over the last 10 years I suppose I have kind of shut up shop socially and the more bad experiences you have the harder it is to get up again.  I will see how I go and maybe work up to it.  

 

Thanks again Grateful for your insights - much appreciated.  You describe how the mind works very well.

 

Oaktree

 

[arbor]

19 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

The walking groups where I am are really fit people - they have walking poles and go up mountains - that sort of thing. 

Oh dear, @Oaktree1--I get what you mean!!!!  Also I see you're from Pluto now.  It reminds me of The Little Prince, by de Saint-Exupéry 🌻🙏💗

Thinking of you--

Arbor

[arbor]

Hi @Oaktree1--How are you doing?

[Oaktree1]

Hi @arbor

 

Thanks very much for asking.  I am managing.  There is nothing new to report really.  I am reducing very slowly.    Christmas is a difficult time so I am just trying not be reactive.  Actually that's my main focus at the moment, not reacting and trying to watch myself.  I live currently in the same house with someone who is pretty selfish and drinks to excess so it's really a masterclass on not reacting really.   I try and watch my tone - I'm inclined to speak sternly or aggressively sometimes and if someone has a go at me I'm inclined to get very upset very quickly, try and defend myself and then remain upset.   The main focus is remain calm.   I enjoy playing with one of my cats who comes into the house (he was feral) a lot and is very amusing - a big ginger tom with a gorgeous round face  stubby legs and huge eyes.  Very intelligent - he listens to all conversations and reacts.  Very domineering and assertive.  I find if I sit in the kitchen and watch him I can be in the moment.    

 

Yesterday we had a bad storm - storm Barra and we live in an area with very large trees which I love - my favourite tree is my avatar picture - a large oak (I'd estimate nearly 200 years old) which is slowly dying.  I was terrified that one of the trees - (there are beeches, limes, oaks and Scots pines ) would fall and that would be like a death for me.  We lost a beautiful lime and a copper beech in a storm back in 2014.  Anyway they were intact this morning thankfully.  They have actually pollarded all the mature trees that line the roads in the past year because of the storms we've been having which I find very sad.  

 

Otherwise anxiety high sometimes very high but i try and live with it.  Sleep was bad for three days last week and eczema worsened with that - I made the mistake of drinking tea after 6pm - I won't do that again.  Head still reacts to shampoo which causes bad irritation on face and hands also so I've purchased yet another one - Moogoo - to try for sensitive scalps.  The only one I find I can use is Causal a coal tar one once a week currently but thankfully I can at least use one.  I wear cotton gloves all the time in the house if my hands get a breakout where they're sore but thankfully no peeling and bleeding which stopped in July 2020.  

 

I hope your sleep has improved a little bit - I know you've had such a bad time of it with insomnia.

 

Sending you good sleep thoughts.

 

Oaktree1 

[arbor]

Dear @Oaktree1--

I really appreciate hearing about your life and how you're coping with the strain of w/d.  Thank you.  Your love of trees and animals lifts my spirits.  They're both deeply important to me as well.  Come to think of it, both our names have trees!  I can picture your orange kitty.  I had one, a true troubadour, who lived to be 23.  As far as the dermatitis is concerned, I'm sorry you're continuing to have flares.  I took your advice and got an aveeno product.  This one has ceramides in it which I'm liking so far.  Apparently, from what I've been reading, the drugs can disrupt our bodies' ability to process lipids properly.

Thank you for your kind wishes for good sleep.  Each night is its own adventure.  Beside my pillow: earplugs, a book, thick glasses (for the blurry vision), eyeshades, and a small bottle of lavender--and on my feet, my kitty, Emily.

All my best to you, wonderful Oaktree.

Arbor

[Oaktree1]

Hi @arbor

 

I figured you might be a cat person.   It's nice to have a cat on your bed.  23 is a huge age for a cat.  I don't know how old my fellow is as I was only able to get him near a vet twice - It's hell trying to catch a feral cat - but I enjoy him while I have him around the place along with a more timid but gentler bicolor feral - since the ginger fellow has been neutered he likes to come in a lot.  

 

I am glad that the Aveeno  seems to be working out a bit - the Dermexa hand balm is the one I would not be without for my hands and feet.

It's interesting to hear about the lipids ...those drugs and the mess they make...

 

I am with you on the sleep paraphernalia except for the lavender (eczema again).  

 

Sending good sleep vibes again 

 

Oaktree1 

[Oaktree1]

I am updating here to add to the documentation of the effects of Mirtazapine.

 

I am continuing a very slow taper using the liquid and maple syrup method.  For the last few months I have been getting severe migraines which are worsening.  The last migraine followed the morning after I had eaten blue cheese.  I had been trying to ignore the histamine issues associated with Mirt but I think they are very real unfortunately.  Mirt specifically blocks the H1 (histamine) receptors.  Aged cheese or blue cheese or anything fermented is apparently full of histamine.   So is anything aged or reheated or not i.e. 'fresh', apparently even legumes which are dried.   Wine also has histamine but other alcohol apparently blocks the DAO enzyme which stop excess histamine.  Also tomatoes, eggplant, avocados, bananas, all citrus fruits, strawberries, raspberries, pineapple and spinach.  Sauerkraut which is fermented along with Soy sauce and any other condiments is also out apparently.    What can you eat?  Apparently fresh animal protein is good and all vegetables except the ones above.  Butter I can tolerate well.  There are also foods that are specific anti histamines - apples, the onion family and honey.

 

I hope that someday there will be a class action which will sue the s**t out of the companies that push these drugs.  

[arbor]

Dear @Oaktree1--Thinking of you and wondering how are you doing?  

Hugs to you as we go through these difficult times--

Arbor

[Oaktree1]

Hi @arbor

 

I have posted elsewhere but should probably post in the relationships forum as this forum is public.  My family of origin has finally imploded.  I have moved to a flat that I have the temporary use of for the time being.  I have stayed there for the past five days but went out to get food yesterday.  The sibling who I am frightened of lives a few miles up the road.   He has keys to this flat so I have locked the chubb door by pushing down the top button.  He probably won't bother about me hopefully as I dread even having to see him in the street but I could no longer stay where I was living any more.  I will have to sort out my cats (someone is feeding them at present) but that is something I will have to do in the next few months.  I don't know where I will be by then. 

 

I hope you are holding it together for the present - holidays can really be a triggering time for people who have had difficult and troubled lives.  2022 is only around the corner now so here's hoping it will bring you some peace.

 

Oaktree

[arbor]

Hi @Oaktree1--Gosh, having to move sounds stressful, and on top of that the discomfort of feeling unsafe.  i hope this resolves soon for you.  

I'm doing a little better.  I can't believe how loud noise sends me through the roof.  Working with the panic attacks is my big project right now.  

I sure send you heartfelt wishes for a healing New Year!!!!!

(And healing for all of us--)

Arbor 💗🎆🍀

[Overwhelmedlady]

Hi @Oaktree1 I just wanted to send you my best wishes and hope you can feel better and safe during this new year.I will check back tomorrow.Feeling a bit better today than I did last weekend...except for the heatwave.

[Oaktree1]

Hi @arbor

 

Thanks for your kind message.  It is not ideal - I know this site is primarily for withdrawal but I do think that coming off these drugs you finally see things that were apparent for years but when you're numbed out it's hard to see them.   

 

 Loud noises are very hard for a sensitised nerve system.  Where I am currently there is a manhole which is not secured properly on the road outside the flat and every time a cyclist goes over it, it bumps back and forth loudly - so I can relate to noise you cannot control... I hope the renovations will not go on too long for you and that your neighbour will get sick of playing the stupid piano.  The problem is when you have a place it is hard to have to move from it.

 

Thanks @Overwhelmedlady, I hope the heatwave does not last too long and am glad to hear you are feeling a bit better.

 

Oaktree1 

[Greatful]

@Oaktree1

Wow you had to move in the middle of everything.  You are stronger than you know.  Or maybe you are seeing that now.   Will you get your cats back with you? 

 

On 12/22/2021 at 6:19 AM, Oaktree1 said:

There are also foods that are specific anti histamines - apples, the onion family and honey.

Does this mean that I can eat these?  Why can't you eat/reheat leftovers?  Man this is the worst, your right what can you eat?  I read peanuts and cashews are not good either. 

 

How is your taper going?    Are you going small every 2 weeks?   Do you understand the WD normal.  Some say back to functioning some say no big swing in symptoms. 

 

Wishing all of us in healing and getting back to our lives this New Year. 

 

 

[Oaktree1]

hi @Grateful

 

Thanks for posting and your comment -  I confess I don't feel very strong - I felt extremely shaky all last week and I am pretty terrified about what is going to happen to me and very powerless.  I was on my own most of the week and talking to myself constantly to soothe myself.  I don't know what I'm going to do about the cats as they are feral and have to live outdoors - there is a small garden at the back by only accessed by loads of stairs - it would be a huge shock for them.  I will have to work it out.  It is very cold too and old and drafty and very noisy right on a busy street so a huge change. 

 

The drug I am taking Mirtazapine is a huge anti histamine so once you are on it long term or reduce that can interfere apparently with histamine levels and you can experience what I have been experiencing or the past few years - allergies to products, metal and wool, reactions to food and eczema on my hands and feet.  the only drug I think you are taking that has an anti histamine effect I think is Trazadone.  I had a quick check on https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5842888/.  But it's not as big a blocker of the histamine receptor as Mirt I think.  You probably already have researched all this stuff already and know way more than me so excuse my ignorance if wrong on this.

 

For me I am eating three apples a day (I like apples anyway).  Apparently food that is not very fresh like reheated food has increased histamine in it.  I suppose the only thing is try a food and see your reaction to it.   You appear to have been suffering with a lot of gastro symptoms but I'm am no expert - I only researched in relation to Mirt.  I went back to eating a small bit of cheese as I love cheese and I seem to be ok with it just not late at night anymore. 

 

The main no no's I think is absolutely no alcohol at all and severely limit caffeine consumption to 1 or 2 per day if you can't it out.  There is no way on earth I would cut out coffee  - life would be completely joyless without it -  I see you are an avid coffee drinker too.  I didn't cut it out - I just cut it down to two cups per day in the morning.  Cashews for some reason I have read are ok to eat and smooth peanut butter apparently is ok to eat too just not actual peanuts - doesn't seem to make sense.  I get away with eating smooth peanut butter which I find very calming with a glass of hot milk sometimes at night.  It's full of tryptophan.   I love Koeze's Peanut butter from Michigan- you can't get it anymore in the shops where I am from so I ordered a load of it off Amazon.  It's the most delicious peanut butter I've ever eaten and has no awful additives like palm or rapeseed oil.    From another site I am on apparently it's ok to eat peanut butter.  I suppose the only way of knowing as everyone's biochemistry is different is to try it and see. 

 

My reductions are very small and I stopped over December as I knew that period would be additionally stressful and I was right.  Just made a reduction two days ago from 6.51 to 6.41mg - we shall see...

 

I wish you continuing courage and acceptance in dealing with the grief of losing your father and brother so close together and the ongoing demands of withdrawal -  you seem to be making real progress in reducing from looking at your signature.🙂

 

Oaktree 

[Oaktree1]

I had a very bad reaction to the last drop to 6.4mg and I've been very shaky since the drop on the 1st January - extremely agitated, very angry, bad insomnia.  I ended up drinking whiskey two nights and learnt my lesson as the mood issues were ten times worse afterwards.  

 

I posted about the benefits of anger before in keeping myself alive but I think there's a limit to it.  I actually think it's quite damaging in large amounts.  If you've no idea what it's like to be loved or to feel safe and you take away the anger which is one side the basic flight or fight impulse then what's left?  What makes life meaningful?  To love and be loved.  If you can't do that then...I think there is a limit to where anger will get you.  It's hard to live on just anger.  I can't trust so I can't really love and then I get frightened so I ended up on drugs.  I even find it hard to use the heart emoticons on this page as they involve a level of commitment I find difficult - I could never write like some posters -'I send you a big hug'.   I am documenting this here anyway - someday it might help a clinician or someone else.  

 

This is a site for getting off drugs primarily and not for mental health issues and yet most people go on these drugs because they are having mental health issues at some level or some form of emotional distress so the two of them are inextricably linked.  

 

I am staying on 6.4mg for the next month and I may or may not stablise - I will have to see.  

[Overwhelmedlady]

Dear @Oaktree1I think it's fine to speak about emotions.I have just read what you wrote about anger.It's just an emotion among many others and sometimes it's necessary or let's say natural reaction when you feel that somebody has harmed you. Now if you keep the anger it's not healthy for you .let me say also that anger,many times masks pain.it's a defense mechanism.it happened to me in the past.I know what you are talking about.I have quite a good training due to more than 20 years of psychoanalysis with an excellent therapist. Its just fine to talk about emotions whether they are related/caused by meds or withdrawal or not.I do send you an affectionate hug and feel free to write whatever you feel.