Oaktree1: tapering from Remeron while dealing with Cymbalta withdrawal

[arbor]

Thanks for this update @Oaktree1  Dosage changes are so very challenging.

On 3/13/2022 at 6:36 AM, Oaktree1 said:

As soon as I changed it I woke up after 2 hours and could not get back to sleep -

Are you sleeping any better?

I can relate to the nausea and headaches.  I suffer with you.  When I look at the beauty of the trees today, I'll be thinking of you.

Arbor

[arbor]

On 3/13/2022 at 6:36 AM, Oaktree1 said:

I am using the products from Deep Recovery

I also wanted to thank you for this.  

[Greatful]

@Oaktree1  Hang in there and you will get through this.....One day at a time.......

The dose changes are just a bump in the road of recovery....I get those too and can get stuck in the spiral of negativity of the pain....  some how it passes or at least gets to a point that you can manage it better...

I am here with you Oaktree1♥️

 

 

[Dominique]

I just wanted to chime in and tell you that I am in awe of the way that you write. There is something very graceful, eloquent and almost poetic about it. I have just read your thread and am blown away. I am so very sorry for your suffering, Oaktree, but I just wanted to remind you that beyond all of it you are a highly intelligent lady and you have a so much to offer to the world. Keep on fighting. Sending you that warmest of wishes. 

[Oaktree1]

I am going to keep this page updated and try in future just to confine myself to issues related to withdrawal without going too deeply anymore in biographical stuff or life stressors.   I am keeping this page updated primarily to add to the data on Mirtazapine which is not listed in the UK Brochure on psychiatric drug withdrawal as the most difficult category of drugs to withdraw from.  I think that it is incorrect largely because Mirtazapine acts on so many brain receptors and because it is a very large anti histamine so causes severe rebound insomnia on withdrawal.  I have read a lot of histories of people who have come off this drug and struggle and people who have tried and failed to get off it.  

 

On Tuesday the 8th February I reduced .3mg to 5.98.  The insomnia set in on day one of the reduction; that has continued; on Friday I got a migraine; on Saturday four days into it the migraine was so severe I could not function at all - I had nausea in addition.   Deeply depressed mood since Wednesday - so much so that I had impaired motor function.  

 

Last night after a few nights of no sleep I took a half a Lexathan.  Today I feel more normal.  I find magnesium glycinate absolutely useless for sleep - if anything it energises me.  As I am now five days into the change and I have read that it takes 3 to 9 days for withdrawal to show up I am going to hold at this dose for the next six weeks unless my symptoms become so debilitating that it becomes impossible.  I was sleeping quite well (for me that equals 6.5 hours a night) before this dose change.  As soon as I changed it I woke up after 2 hours and could not get back to sleep - I hope it resolves.  

 

I am using the products from Deep Recovery purchasable on Amazon which are helpful for pain, particularly the Neck Track for trigger point massage and myofascial release.    It is possible to place your face or temples on it too and it is relaxing it you have pain or spasm in your jaw or the side of your head.   The neck track  is made of soft plastic or rubber and it has indentations in it for massage balls that can also be purchased from the site.  The indentations hold the balls in place and allow you to rest your neck or face on the device without the hassle of having to exert pressure to keep the balls in place - you can just relax into it.  The pressure calms my nervous system down.  I have also found the Occipivot another American product designed by a physical therapist very helpful for neck release and traction of the upper and middle back particularly if I place a small exercise ball on the coccyx so that my whole back is suspended.   I don't have any disk or serious spinal issues but for someone who has this might be dangerous so just putting out the warning.   Putting this out here as a non drug way or helping someone relax or deal with pain.

 

 

[Oaktree1]

Hi @Dominique

 

Thanks very much for your kind words - my previous post came up again and I had to submit it again to reply - don't know why this happened.  I see you have had a lot of struggles too - I wish you hope and forebearance getting off these things.  You seem to have had an awful time of it with dreadful insomnia.  At least things seem to be slowly improving for you in your sleep.  Also still looking at the positives you seem to be very young so will still have the best part of your life ahead of you when you heal from these drugs.  In addition you'll have a hard won wisdom which you can use to help the poor unfortunates still stuck on them in the work you do.  

 

Oaktree

[arbor]

Hope you're doing ok @Oaktree1 with your latest cut.  Have the awful symptoms improved at all?

Arbor🙏

[Oaktree1]

@arbor

 

Thanks for checking in with me - lovely to see your post pop up.

I am trying not to post as often here now as it makes for a very long thread ultimately and I tend go on (I was a trained typist so can type relatively fast and the words just stream on as I am on my own most of the time and very lonely).

 

  My sleep restored itself on the 17th and has been ok since.  I went back up .1mg to 5.9mg.  I had incorrectly written in the last post that I had initially reduced to 5.98mg; should have written 5.8mg.  So for the past six days have been sleeping through the night and two days ago had to go back to bed I was so tired.

 

My mood has been very low for the past three days; and I find that I can do very little bar washing myself and making my coffee and feeding the cats.  All activity except the basics I find almost physically painful and a huge effort.   I am unable to go out for a walk except a short one in the garden.  The thought of driving up the hills is too much for me so no hill walks.   The suicidal ideation lasts much longer than 15 minutes sometimes it seems hover there most of the day until I can drown it out with the news.  I found a very helpful post by ChessieCat on suicidal ideation this evening - I am paraphrasing but the gist of part of it was that  if you are too apathetic to do anything that can protect you.  I read it before I got frightened that I would get too low to do anything at all.  The thought of catatonia really frightens me.   It is a  good post that one in the section on suicidal ideation.  

 

I am glued to the horror of the news in the Ukraine.  I know it is  voyeuristic but it distracts me from rumination on my own situation.  I can't work out if it makes me feel worse on balance.  I find myself trying to weigh up a balance sheet of wrongs in my mind to find a sense of fairness between my own suffering and the suffering of the Ukrainians.  I see an elderly woman barely able to walk unaided being helped into a wheelchair after a crowded train journey to Poland - completely alone in the world and I find myself doing figures in my brain.  Perhaps she had a good life before this happened - she looks happy and is talking to people who are helping her.  I see a young mother with two children who has left her husband behind her and is crying and I think well she is young and pretty and she has two children and I don't have that... I am trying to compare my life to these lives and see if there is an average quotient of suffering but I can't compute it. 

 

Then last night going down memory lane, I looked up Bo Derek the actress in 10 who appears to have led a charmed life - great beauty, a great lifestyle, a long fulfilling relationship with her first husband and another long partnership with another actor whom she has recently married.  It doesn't make sense as there's no fairness in it.  Not begrudging Bo Derek her happiness and she seems like a decent person but it doesn't make sense.   I gave a large chunk of my disability payment to a charity for Ukraine last week to make myself feel better I suppose.  

 

Running on again but there is something else I need to write here.  I have been reading the threads on SA and there are so many of them which just run out...the person who started the thread and often posted regularly with updates will stop posting and their thread will just hang there unfinished.  I wonder about those people - did they go back on their drugs, did they kill themselves....I have been looking through the success stories too but the truth is that given the large number of people who post here the success stories are relatively sparse - so sparse as to be dis quietening.   

 

I have been thinking over the past few days that perhaps I should have taken Lithium as I was told to do 30 years ago.  The psychiatrist I saw in 2019 said it was a pity I hadn't opted for it years ago as it could have been trans formative for me.   I did ask for it two years ago in my day hospital but the doctor looked shocked and said categorically 'Lithium is not a benign drug and I see no evidence that you are bipolar'.  I decided not to take it in 1994 following a manic episode having deliberated over it for six months.  I decided not to because I had a cousin who was put on it and ended up spending most of his life on disability while doing voluntary work in a psyche hospital.  I was young and did not want to end up like that.  I did not want to accept a label like bipolar; I did not want to get renal failure and hypothyroidism and have to get blood tests every six weeks.  I wasn't even sure that it would be worth it.  This was largely because when I was in hospital I met all these middle aged women who were already on Lithium but they were still cycling in and out of hospital and most of them were also on two different anti depressants (MAOI's and trycyclics) and a few of them were on anti psychotics in addition to Lithium.  If Lithium was such a wonder drug why were they having to take all this other stuff and why were they still cycling in and out of hospital sometimes several times a year.  They were being treated by the same psychiatrist who treated me and I thought to myself well if I continue down this road and go on Lithium then I'll end up like these women cycling in and out of hospital and on four different drugs and still sick. 

 

One of my 'friends' from school had a breakdown at the same times as me during this period.  This girl had been tall, very attractive and had a model's figure.  She was put on Lithium and I drove out to see her.  I got a shock...she had put on several stone in weight - she must have gone up four or five dress sizes.  I was distressed to see her like that.  She was withdrawn and very resigned. At this time I was fighting to stay off Lithium and not accept my label and I tried to convince her to do the same  but she got very angry with me and cut me out of her life completely.  Now I think perhaps she did the right thing.  I have read too many stories of people who say that they have been able to life a normal life because of Lithium.  I don't know what happened to her. 

 

I have been thinking more and more in the last while that perhaps I should have taken the stuff.  The psychiatrist who said Lithium could have been trans-formative told me that anti depressants are contra indicated for bipolar disorder and make it worse and that I would do well on a mood stabliser.  That's why I opted for the lamotrigine until I got a rash from the damn thing.  Then I couldn't get it (Lithium) from the day hospital anyway.  I think it is being prescribed less and less because it needs to be monitored so closely and the services in my country are too underfunded and understaffed to do that.  

 

I know this is site primarily for coming off psychotropic drugs and I am beginning to veer off in the other direction but the doubt is there with me now.  Anyway my life is lived and have only myself to blame ultimately- you make decisions with the best of intentions at the time.  I am going to continue slow tapering the Mirt but I am holding onto the idea of  a little Lithium.

 

I know Arbor that you are quite a while off these drugs now and my intention is not to dissuade you from staying off them.  I certainly know that they did enormous damage to my own health but the problem is that once you start taking them I think in many cases  the brain is changed and that's why once you've started down the road well...it's very hard to come back from that.  It's like the other side of the moon - did you ever see that film 'Falling Down' with Michael Douglas?  He's just killed someone and has phoned his wife and he tells her a story about astronauts that have travelled so far into space that they haven't enough fuel to come back..they just have to continue.  I saw that film years ago while I was on a outing from the psyche hospital - had a huge impact on me - oh dear.. am very rabbity this evening.   I suppose I am lonely and am talking through the keyboard.

 

Perhaps I was right not to go on Lithium - I'll never know I suppose.

until I get a prescription for it and that may never happen now.

 

The one thing from all this is to respect everyone's position and I do respect the position of everyone here who decides to come off drugs.  I just wish I knew what happened to all the people who stop posting.  For me I'll be maintaining this dose for a few weeks and then I will see what I will do.  It is not a good idea to reduce further feeling the way I do presently - that is clear from the guidelines on here

 

I hope you are getting better sleep and that your iron levels are improving Arbor.

 

Oaktree 🌸

[arbor]

Dear @Oaktree1--I'm so sorry you're having to suffer like this.  I long for the intensity and unrelenting grip of it to be over for you--and all of us.  Your descriptions remind me of the painful perseverations that come up for me as well, and that others report.  I link my own to the chemical stress of w/d.  You're probably familiar with this link:

Neuro-emotions - Symptoms and self-care - 

I have to do whatever I can to ignore the strange, urgent need to compare myself, or second guess decisions, interrogate the past, etc, etc, ad nauseam.  Our brains are injured.  I do believe they can heal.  I'm so glad you're sleeping better.  There were times in the beginning that I would feel dizzy from the strength of the loneliness--even though I had strong connections (including my bouncy cat).  Today, anyway, I'm not caught in those emotional storms, though I guard my peace of mind as much as I can--which is to say, I don't mingle much.

It's true there aren't a lot of Success Stories in relation to the large number of members.  I can't speculate on this.  I have only hunches which include the fact that SA is to help with tapering and dealing with w/d.  If people choose to stop tapering and continue on the drugs, they may not feel this site is as useful for them.  Or, after reaching 0, they may need time to feel confident in writing the SS.  From what I understand, writing them can be an emotional undertaking.  They may not want to risk that yet.  Whenever someone does write one, I am so grateful.  

 

Whenever you feel alone, please know I am plugging for you--and with big appreciation for who you are.💜🙏💜

Arbor

[JanCarol]

Hey Oaktree - 

On 3/24/2022 at 9:55 AM, Oaktree1 said:

I have been thinking over the past few days that perhaps I should have taken Lithium as I was told to do 30 years ago. 

 

Well, if you think you have anhedonia now, try it on lithium.  Lithium deadened everything.  Love, hate, anger, fear, joy, interest, sorrow, peace, everything.  I sat on the back verandah and smoked cigs and read books - not even knowing what I read.  I cared about nothing, noone, didn't care to feed myself, shower, brush my teeth or anything.  Didn't want to talk to anyone, engage with anything.  It was the pinnacle of iatrogenically induced anhedonia.

In addition to that, a mere 10 years on a moderate dose (I had friends who were on 3x what I was) - it changed my metabolism (yes, packing on the pounds that now feel impossible to lose), my kidneys, maybe my liver too.  I lost my thyroid.  Can't say I recommend the lithium.

 

On 3/24/2022 at 9:55 AM, Oaktree1 said:

doctor looked shocked and said categorically 'Lithium is not a benign drug and I see no evidence that you are bipolar'.

 

Yeah, that.  It is not benign.  When I got put on it, my doctor friend in the States (who had been my physician as well as my personal friend for decades), said "OH NO!"  I asked her why, and she said, "The therapeutic window is very narrow!"  I asked her what that meant, she said, "It's a fine line between therapeutic and toxic."  It is used much more in Australia than it is in the US, which favours Depakote (sodium valproate), and if you can tolerate it, Lamotragine.

JUST FOR FUN, all that I suffered was "beneath clinical observation."  My blood tests were fine, I complained to my p-doc about peeing all the time (diabetes insipidus) and she said, "that's not a side effect of lithium," and I replied, "YES IT IS," and made her look it up.  "Oh, yeah, so it is."  Clinically, I was "fine" on the lithium, but it was cashing in on my internal organs!

 

HOWEVER, that said, you might look at the thread on tiny doses of it.  I used orotate for the last part of my taper - it is more absorbable, but tiny tiny doses are available.  John Gray ( a psychologist - not a doctor -  of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" fame) swears by 5 mg daily.  I took 1.5 mg for a few years after my taper down from medical lithium.

So I've gathered a little bit about your story - and I've wondered what happens to people who are emotionally healthy (it isn't really "mental" illness, it's emotional dysregulation - but they've built an industry on it, so whatever) but who have physical pain, and get put on the Cymbalta / Amytriptaline/Lyrica thing.  And then over time begin to find their health in a state of severe decay and more difficult to self-regulate moods.  Would you say you've had mood struggles before they put you on that stuff for pain?

You've gotten good with the physio tools - I am having severe neck pain right now, looking at the devices you've mentioned here & wondering.  Right now, I'm getting trigger point injections & stretching on door frames - but I've often thought that traction would feel good, releasing, relieving.  I asked my osteopath about traction (not your normal osteopath, he's also an MD, and a chiropractor, depending on whether he is in Australia, Germany, Ireland, or the USA, different qualifications apply at different locations) - and as brilliant as it is, he said that RCT's on traction didn't show much long term benefit.  Sigh.  

 

Anyhow - you've gotten good with the physio tools for your body - now you need to find something that works for your emotional stability.  I heard a phrase a few years back, called 'hedonic rehabilitation,' which helps immensely for those in the depths of despair.  Finding something good for you which brings you pleasure.  For me, for awhile, it was colouring books, putting colour on a page, felt good, felt like I was doing something.  Or fiddling around on the piano or ukelele or djembe.    I did force myself to start sun-walks, just 5-10 min a day.  Gradually added attending classes - yoga (when I could) & tai chi.  I made those committments,  and eventually started to incorporate tai chi into my daily routine.  These tiny tiny steps started pulling me out of the anhedonic pit.  (and really - it sounds like more than it is.  I mean TINY!!!  I, like you, only have a couple of "good" hours a day for getting things done)

Listening to music was a huge step for me in coming 'round.  And - I hate to say it, but the news = ain't good for ya.  The news is designed to create fear and anxiety, so that you will buy into the narrative and buy more stuff, and - honestly - rely on big pharma to fix your problems, when really - it's not even a band-aid.  It's a wash.  It's like painting over dirt to cover it up, when really, you need a good clean.  (ahhhhh, meditation - if you can go there - can be pleasure, too).

So find something which gives you pleasure.  Knitting, painting, music, looking at clouds, a walk around the block (my walk around the block is religious, ritualistic - have to do it EVERY day), patting your kitties, following your pleasure to a brighter day.

I, too, rambled (I, too, typed for a living for awhile, and think much better while typing!), but it's good to make your acquaintance, and I hope you can find something to help climb your way out of the anhedonic hole.

And - I hope you see the Sun today!

[JanCarol]

I have a friend here who is in her 70's.  She was put on Endep (amitryptaline) for post-natal depression when her son was born.

He is now in his 40's, and she still takes the stuff.  She has had to add on Lyrica for pain, and now continues the Endep for pain, as well.  She has a physical tremor, especially in her head & neck, and is battling gout.

She still has pain, and is still on the drugs.

She is a dear friend, but I confess, I use her in my mind to remind me of why I want to stay off the fragging drugs.

[Greatful]

@Oaktree1  Stopping by to see how you are doing?♥️

 

[Oaktree1]

 Hi @JanCarol

 

 

  Thanks very much for sending me a reply a few weeks ago - I really enjoyed reading it and I enjoyed reading your bio too which I am still reading on and off – it is an engrossing story.     I haven’t been posted on SA recently as I tend to go on .  I made a few attempts to reply to you but they were so filled with negativity that I kept having to re-write them.  This is the best I could do.  I read all the posts on the link you sent me on the Lithium Orotate debate and that led me into researching Lithium more widely.   One of my relatives, a clinician, told me that they had a severely depressed patient who responded to nothing but eventually a small dose of Lithium did the trick and his mood lifted. 

 

I know now how dangerous this drug is and how quickly you can slide over into toxicity.  I kind of knew before but it was a refresher course to read about the dangers of overdose (which I read on Healthline) subsequent to reading a lot of your own bio.   The issue is whether sleeping for 8 hours without waking up and being Zen about most things are worth the weight gain, organ damage and ever present possibility of death.  I can’t remember when I last slept the night through and my mind is tossed and turned with worries a lot of the time.  I have to say that before I gave it up that the low dose trimipramine was at least good at giving me a good night’s sleep.

 

Your analogy on taking drugs being like painting over the dirt is very apt. However unlike you  I have had no luck with meditation despite joining a Buddhist group for a period and subsequently doing a secular meditation course and spending a lot of cash on Jon Kabbatt Zinn’s book on mindfulness.  My God that was a heavy read and I never did finish it.  Eventually I realised it was not going to work in my case.  Whenever I think about ‘being in the moment’ I automatically think of the people in the gas chambers ‘just being in the moment’ as the  Zyklon B poured in.  There is something about Buddhism and mindfulness that fills me with rage – to sit in non-judgement no matter what is just such ….I would like to feel Zen and detached however and am trying not to react no matter how angry or upset I am.  I think of  Glenn Close when she played the Countess de Merteuil  in 'Dangerous Liaisons' talking about digging a fork in her hand to stop herself from screaming in frustration and boredom.  Mastery of one’s emotions is what I am working on now every moment of the day.  I do this  by observation and letting the thoughts run on.  That’s as close as I get to meditation. 

 

You seem to be a very up beat person and seem to be able to connect with people - I'm the opposite of you.  Certain things stand out for me in your bio  - barbecues with your friends back in the States, your don't 'give a damn attitude' in your karate classes – your descriptions are very funny and vivid that I can almost see you there, the fact that one of your treating clinicians was also a friend, that you always even in a psychiatric setting seemed able to get people to meet you on your level.   

 

  I'm so wary of people now I'm to all intents and purposes a recluse.  I really understand the term 'starved for company' in more than its literal sense.  But in tandem with that from my 50 plus years of being mostly an outcast there is now a real rage there also.   That was there before but now it's really there.  Sometimes I scream with rage in the car which helps.  I have a lot of what is neatly termed ACE’s ( adverse childhood experiences) but in tandem with that  I also acquired a lot of AAE’s ( adverse adult experiences) over the years.

 

Hedonic rehabilitation is an  interesting term.  You write that you were anhedonic on Lithium.  That is how I feel now.  My hobby used to be cooking until I got eczema on my hands and now it's in remission mostly but I don't enjoy it much anymore - it's just a chore.  Still I took your advice and made some bean tacos with red cabbage slaw which were nice.   Dance was a big thing for me until the advent of hip arthritis a few years ago.   It was a loss not being able to dance like I used to. I favoured high impact aerobics with loud dance tracks –  the only time I could lose myself if that makes any sense.  Not being able to do that which I learnt slowly by dint of cortisone and PRP injections that didn’t work and finally being told by an unsympathetic surgeon that my hip was damaged so I should just walk and cycle and never squat or lunge until the hip was at a clinical level for replacement was like getting hit in the guts.  That was the activity I most enjoyed.

 

 Anyhow I found Upright Health programmes provided by an inspirational Chinese American PT called  Matt Hsu who has a channel on Youtube.  I have his hip programmes which have helped a lot.  I have to be honest though – my mind is so bent on rumination a lot of the time that sometimes I don’t do the exercises.  I internet surf and talk to myself instead. 

 

I had taken up and enjoyed Tai Chi classes but the rolling  lockdowns put paid to that so I've gotten the book ‘Tai Chi for Dummies’.  It is hard to do it though on my own with a wandering mind – I confess I haven’t managed to do it in ages.  My hip is gammy so walking can be hard but I am back doing that to get out.  

 

There isn’t anything really anymore that really allows me to feel pleasure except reading a book for a period – I am enjoying ‘Death Grip’ by Matt Samet the climber who climbed out of benzo addiction currently. That man can write and his extensive lexicon has me running regularly to the online dictionaries to look up words – today I learnt the meanings of ‘striations’,  and ‘preternatural’.  Looking up words can keep my mind occupied for a while and I can experience a little bit of peace.  I look forward to the periods in the morning and late at night when the rumination has quietened enough to settle down with it.

 

Re your neck issues - what I have found really helpful is Thomas Hanna's Somatics.   I don't know if you know of somatics or how it would work for severe neck pain but for me it works if I have lower back pain.  There are some gentle neck and trunk and shoulder exercises in it that might help you specifically.   It's basically teaching the nervous system to recognise tension and relax through movements - you may have already been there and back.  I really like looking at this woman called Susan Koenig -  a somatics teacher on Youtube. - I have the Thomas Hanna book but some the illustrations are hard to follow - she makes it accessible.  I like that she’s well over 50, doesn’t bother to disguise it and is still supple and lithe.  She is American also and based somewhere in California.  I sometimes do somatics before bed for 30 minutes to wind down – it definitely works for me and sometimes puts me to sleep as I lie on the floor after doing an extended version of the daily cat stretch.  I attach you a link to one of her videos specifically for the neck.  I think she's brilliant.

 

Re your friend, I’ve never heard of Endep and it must be sad to see her deterioration.  I hated taking the decision to go back on the trimipramine but I had had six months of back pain and could not get any sleep with it.  I knew I was going down the rabbit hole again but felt I had no choice.  When it happened I was being constructively dismissed from a ‘family’ business – it one of the crappy things that happened in my life.  I didn’t have any power in the situation and I suppose my body was speaking up for me. 

 

I should have answered sooner but to be honest I have not been up to doing a post in the last while.  I  had to re-write this post and remove some of the more negative stuff which I will loosely term external human life stressors – that is a dark, dysfunctional and loveless place and that is all I will write about it except that is ongoing and unpleasant. 

 

I am glad that music helped you to come round – it’s had the opposite effect for me – I listened to less and less music when I entered into the worst withdrawal in 2018 and now I never listen to it at all – ain’t that weird?  I used to try to sing professionally – cured of that now – I don’t enjoy it anymore. It’s a relief to give up something that was causing me pain and at least I am learning to give up things and people that were causing me pain – that is helping me to become calmer and more centred. 

 

My main objective in the last while has been to try and introduce some good habits.  I have managed to start getting out for a walk before 12pm if my hip is up to it as that encourages sleep apparently.   The next thing I have to work with is no screens two hours before bed – I am not doing so well at that one as my mind speeds up at night and that leads me to the internet or TV so it’s a work in progress…I find that if I just concentrate on doing these two things that is enough to be going on with. 

 

I find that I am mostly ok inhabiting what you refer to as the ‘anhedonic pit’  - what a great term.  You have melded the old way of understanding the deepest unhappiest – the pit of despair and mixed it with the more modern term ‘anhedonic’ that was first used in 1897 by a French psychologist apparently and is now part of the psychiatric arsenal.  Yes, I am used now to anhedonia – or as someone in a mental health group once said to me about someone ‘she is happy in her misery’.  I am just used to it and accept it given that I can’t seem to really shift it.  I do get small moments of pleasure throughout the day.  I think that allies in some way with some of Claire Weekes’s advice – the acceptance part.

 

Yes, I’ve been told before the news is not good for me but it’s a distraction from my own horrors to look over there at somewhere else’s.  I have stopped watching news now more or less at least on TV at least.  I love the newspapers the way I once loved cigarettes – a break from some monotonous piece of housework to go online and read a good columnist.  I got a free subscription to one or two newspapers from someone else who lives here.  I know that it’s designed to shock and alarm but it shocks me out of my own alarms to read about someone else’s or to be entertained by a point of view expressed well.   I love reading the posts on SA too.  Sometimes it can be intimidating – there are so many authors here, yourself included – people who write as well if not better than professional writers which perhaps some of them are. 

 

Anyway I did a long post because I was grateful to you as a mod who has experience with Lithium for commenting at length about your own experience and that’s why I went on so long.  I was  chuffed to get your post and have read it a few times so thank you.  It has given me a lot of food for thought.

 

 Oaktree1 🌺

 

  

[JanCarol]

Hey Oaktree, 

 

Thanks for writing!

 

8 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

Whenever I think about ‘being in the moment’ I automatically think of the people in the gas chambers ‘just being in the moment’ as the  Zyklon B poured in.  There is something about Buddhism and mindfulness that fills me with rage – to sit in non-judgement no matter what is just such ….

 

Oh yeah, there is that.  Our Corporate Masters are very much into "Mindfulness" (and our friend Jon Kabat-Zinn is likely complicit, even though he does good work) because - supposedly, we will be more accepting of the horrendous conditions we find ourself in.  See the "Amazon Mindfulness Booths" for an example of this.  Yeah, like that's going to fix existential despair?  Poor working conditions?  Relieve trauma?

Don't get me wrong, I find mindfulness very useful - but not to tolerate bad things.  Sometimes injustices need to be addressed, conflicts need communication and resolution, and horrible situations need to be walked away from.

It reminds me of a yoga story about meditation.  A man went to the guru and said, "I try to meditate, but I live above an auto body shop, and the noise is horrible, and the stench is awful, and this makes it hard to meditate.  The guru replies, "Move."

There is a school of thought which says  if you learn to meditate in the heart of New York City (or Mumbai, or Rio de Janeiro, or London, or any other busy metropolis) you can meditate anywhere.  But there's a lot to be said for having peaceful surroundings in which to meditate.

Sitting meditation isn't for everyone.  I enjoy sitting, having started it long before my psychiatric journey, when I was a young pup of 20.  I started my yoga journey 7 years before that.  I have a beautiful comfy meditation cushion, but have I sat in it more than twice in the past 2 years?  (answer, uh, no)

 

But post withdrawal,  I found that moving meditation like tai chi much more helpful.  When I'm thinking about where is my weight, where are my feet?  Are my hands like this or that?  How is my posture?  Am I folding my hips and sinking to Earth?  Is it a big step, a little step, a twist?  Ball of foot or heel of foot?  Release those tense muscles!  So many things to think about - and guess what?  It's mindfulness without the indoctrination!  Only me & my body.

However, you need to be really dedicated to learn Tai Chi from books (which I have done when desperate for a teacher).  I recommend Paul Lam's DVD's - perhaps "Tai Chi for Arthritis" will help with your hips.  He has some seated practices too, so that you don't have to work too hard to get some benefits.  He's a bit wordy, but his methods of breaking things down into little pieces make it easy to digest. 

There are also a number of excellent teachers who teach through Zoom.  You and I are of a similar age - and so - I hate Zoom classes.  I like the personal touch of an instructor in the room with me, so the instructor can see my body, make corrections, and I can better hear (I'm partly deaf) and understand - and - make my body match that of the teacher.  But - it's there and available for you if you like it.  My own Master / school in Indiana teaches on Sunday on Zoom (or some sort of online forum):  https://www.newschooltaichi.org/training-times  

 

I know these are good people, I've trained with them since the 1990's. 

 

8 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

I am glad that music helped you to come round – it’s had the opposite effect for me – I listened to less and less music when I entered into the worst withdrawal in 2018 and now I never listen to it at all – ain’t that weird?

 

Oh, I get this.  In withdrawal, sometimes what we need more than anything is quiet.  Some people here have spent their withdrawal in quiet, dark rooms, with minimal contact with the outside world.  Earplugs, dark glasses, the whole "quiet" bit.  

 

10 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

I should have answered sooner but to be honest I have not been up to doing a post in the last while.  I  had to re-write this post and remove some of the more negative stuff which I will loosely term external human life stressors – that is a dark, dysfunctional and loveless place and that is all I will write about it except that is ongoing and unpleasant. 

 

Sorry to hear that.  I agree with you that your body might have been telling you about the situation - and you mention ACE.  I got some relief from the burden of trauma by listening to Carolyn Myss.  She's not for everyone, but she talked about "Whodunnit," that so much therapy is about digging into those old wounds to find the "whodunnit" but that doesn't really release the trauma.  Better to do TRE (trauma releasing exercise, usually shaking) and "raise the vibration" and burn that agony out, than to worry about the "whodunnit," which is an endless rabbit hole.

I hear the cats hankering for playtime before dinner - so I hope you see the Sun today.

Looking forward to your next post (and I'm still thinking about those neck traction thingies - they are all quite reasonably priced!)

JC

[JanCarol]

I tried the video, above!

 

Apparently Susan Koenig is a goddess of Somatics.  (I was previously suspicious of the name, another "bodywork" named "Body Work" (Somatics)).

 

I was leery, because it was anything like what I learned in physio, my Doc had told me not to do those exercises.

 

But it was oh-so-gentle, and used principles I've found in other practices - like tai chi, qigong, & Feldenkrais massage (not as a practitioner, but as a recipient) - to fall *into* the muscle and slowly release.  To work into the folds instead of the stretches.  (does that even make sense?)

Anyhow, thank you for the recommendation, I think you found a good one!>

Now to just practice it!  (egads)

I hope you see the Sun today.

[Oaktree1]

On 3/24/2022 at 8:47 PM, arbor said:

Whenever you feel alone, please know I am plugging for you--

 

Hi @arbor

 

It took me a long time to reply to JanCarol's very helpful post so only now I am just replying to yours sent way back on the 24th March.  Had to re-write it often as my angry mind is overflowing with invective at the moment but it still comes out angry.  I check your page often to see how you are doing.

 

I am plugging for your too and for everyone here that has been injured by these drugs and by the labels that have been stuck on them and by the disenfranchisement from wider society that is the lot of some of the people myself included that post here - not all thankfully.  Thankfully there are many that have family and jobs and friends that keep them afloat.   

 

I am getting to the end of and trying to eek out the last pages of the most extraordinary personal testimony's that I have yet read - Matt Samets.   If you have not read it yet - I believe you would enjoy it as someone who is quite the wordsmith yourself - 'painful perserverations' - how I enjoyed reading that and looking up that word (I presume you mean it in the sense of the endlessly repetitive thoughts that swim the head of someone lost in rumination of the 'why didn't I?' and 'why did I?'

 

I would like to see many more people from this site get to the point of writing about their recovery not just on the success stories forums here.  I would love to see loads of Angie Peacocks and Laura Delanos (who I believe is writing her own story presently for publication) flooding the market with their tales of woe and recovery. 

 

They are very badly needed.  I understand from the latest blog on Mad in American that the pharma companies are now employing 'influencers' to sell their drugs rather than drug reps.  Patty Duke is dead - long live a 1,000 Patty Dukes.   Having read her rant about patients who refuse their medication I have nothing good to say about the late Ms Duke.  It was fortuitous for her that the pharma gig came along at a time in her life when she would not have been in demand for acting work.  

 

I have read the guidelines on SA on 'hateful' speech.   I try not to be so angry but I fail to do so;  I get angry when I read the stories here of decent people who thought or were told that they were doing the 'right' thing, the 'responsible' thing, the thing that caused them terrible suffering like the suffering that you, dear Arbor, have had to go through. 

 

I get very angry when I read about suffering, particularly suffering that is denied by the medico/pharma complex and all the other people making money out of that system.  I get very angry that so many of the stories here are from people whose only 'sin' was to be a bit more sensitive than others or those who were  abused or traumatised in childhood or adolescence and ended up pathologised when they broke down as a result.  

 

But then we have Lady Gaga talking about loving Olanzapine.  When you have someone who is that iconic, that gifted and has that much influence really talking about her drug like that, it seems a bit hopeless.  But Matt Samet's story made me sit up.  I would love if he wrote a sequel as he had a set back a few years ago but is now apparently back on track again.  

 

Anyway I check in on your page to see how you are doing and I am rooting for you too.   Sometimes I have difficulty even controlling my emotions when I write. 

 

That's why I have to hold myself back and re-write.  I had a treatise done linking what happened to me in the psychiatric system in the early 1990's to the iniquities of our residential institutions -  mother and baby homes, Magdalene laundries - the country I live in is so evil; the iniquity of what was visited mainly on vulnerable women and children in the name of Catholicism was so shocking.  The entire society participated in it for 70 years.

 

I learnt back in the 1990's what it was like to be deprived of my liberty even though I was signed in as a 'voluntary' patient; I learnt the hard way that once you sign yourself in that you've signed away all your civic rights. 

 

I won't write about what happened inside but it was similar to what happened to some of those women.  Of course I know that this happens to psychiatric patients all over the world - not just where I happen to live. 

 

It's just that when I managed to get out: I had to lie and pretend and there was no support; there was an omerta; I couldn't tell anyone anything; it was taboo and the ones I did tell...well I became a pariah. 

 

That was Irish society - I wish I had left when I was young but was too frightened and damaged even at that point to do so.  I bonded with a dog eventually but humans, particularly most Irish humans - forget about it...of course I did reintegrate superficially after that but I had to block off that whole time period because I learnt that if I was open about it that was social suicide.  I had to lie about that time as if it had never happened and make up stories for my CV when I went back into the employment market. 

 

So in a way it was not dissimilar to some of the women in the Mother and Baby homes in this country; they were put in to have their children and then then went back to their lives and no one said anything about it because of the shame.  A lot of the Magdalen women never got out at all and spent their entire lives imprisoned by the nuns in those laundries; the religious orders made fat profits off their labour and they were buried in unmarked graves. 

 

The scandal broke when an order of nuns decided they wanted to sell some land in the 1990's and there was a discovery of all these dead women in an unmarked grave.  Then a few decades after that scandal a local female historian discovered the bodies of around 700 babies that the nuns had shoved into a septic tank in one of this homes in the West of Ireland. 

 

The thing was - it wasn't just the religious orders who presided over the incarceration and abuse of these people.  It was the entire society that participated and no one ever questioned it; no one ever said anything until the first ***** appeared in 1983 when a young girl died giving birth under a grotto of the virgin Mary in a small village in the North West and the village wouldn't talk and it was all hushed up.  But then her sister who had shared a bedroom with her killed herself 8 months later and her boyfriend was taken out of the town by a priest and the media got hold of the story.   This only came to light in the last two years.  The people in the village closed ranks.  But the vision of the 15 year old young girl dead underneath a grotto of another young, unmarried pregnant saint was like a photo being held up to the whole country of everything that was wrong with it. 

 

That was the start of the curtain being slowly pulled back in fits and starts over the next few decades on the horrors that this country was mute about.   The report from the Mother and Baby report was only published last year - I was so angry over that because it reflected the experience that I had.  Do you know that in 1969 this country had more people locked up in mental asylums than anywhere else in the world including the USSR? 

 

That's how we dealt with people here - lock them up or shut them up.  If anyone talks about abuse of power we have the most restrictive defamation laws in the Western world that have been cited as a barrier to proper freedom of expression by the European Court of Human Rights.  Some very prominent psychiatrists in this horrible county have made extensive use of these laws.   

 

I love my next door neighbour - wonderful, wonderful England .  Now that is a country with freedom of expression and the first country, as far as I know, to have their psychiatric body acknowledge that withdrawal from psychotropic drugs is real.  Not so in this kip – there is no reference to withdrawal on the site of the College of Psychiatrists of Ireland or anywhere on the website of our National Health Services that publishes information on anti-depressants

 

I suppose I am trying to make a point about the 'othering' that happens in wider society of people who have been dragged into the 'mental ill health' net.  Although now so many people are on these drugs now that it's nearly been normalised.  Irish society now is in love with 'mental health' currently and nearly every week or so there's someone on the radio talking about the lightbulb moment they realised they had 'bipolar' or 'borderline'.  It's the same childish mentality that was previously applied to the utterances of the church.  That's why it's even more important for people to speak out or write out about the travesty at the heart of the mental health system. 

 

I am rooting for you anyway Arbor and hope my anger does not cause distress.      

 

I just feel so powerless at what happened and continues to happen and that I still rely on engagement with the mental health services for money.  At this stage of my life I am no longer prepared to tell lies anymore to anyone about what happened to me.  I no longer have anything to lose career wise anyway.  I don't have and at this stage am unlikely to get a job even though I've a few degrees and a professional qualification.  

 

I wish I could say that I have followed some of JanCarol's advice on hedonic rehabilitation but my life circumstance which is pro scripted by long term unemployment,  pain issues and advancing age has made that hard.  I need purpose and engagement in order to continue to life I think.  I am doubtful that that is available to me though in this country.   

 

Oaktree1🌸

[Oaktree1]

On 4/24/2022 at 9:24 PM, Greatful said:

@Oaktree1  Stopping by to see how you are doing?♥️

 

Hi @Grateful

 

Just replying now as the limitations of my mind currently only allow me to do one reply at a time and even at that it's a push to post an equable response as I see I have done another rant above in my reply to Arbor.  You can see above I suppose how i am doing.  I hope you got through the funeral in one piece.  You were posting recently on another page and i see you recently made another cut so you must have done.   

 

I feel wistful when I read of your immediate family and the love and support you give each other.  I think you know how to give and receive love.  I admire that - it's like watching someone dive from a high board.

 

However you have been through the wringer in the last while with mouth and gum problems, headaches, trauma from the past coming up and having had to deal with two important family occasions while suffering from all that and what you call a 'people phobia'.   One of my worst nightmares at the moment is that I'll have to attend a serious or important family occasion like that and I don't know if I would be able for it.  I think you must have got through it though so I hope you are proud of yourself for getting through it.   At least on the good side you say that you feel that your brain is becoming clearer so that is progress.  

 

I have not been posting in a while as I can't even stop my mouth from going off at the keyboard and I see that it's all negative.  I have just posted another long negative reply to Arbor and it's just full of bile.   I don't seem to have control over it today.  I had written a reply before but not posted and deleted but it was same full of bile stuff and eventually I had to post rather than not reply.   

 

I think being on my own so much I tend to go on when I post here but I was always a ranter even as a small child apparently so I think it's part of my personality  - the ASD part.  I find cognitive empathy hard - I should be more aware of the suffering that Arbor is going through too.  How would I feel like if a mountain of invective rained down on me?  I have difficulty imagining how I would feel to be honest - that's the lack of cognitive empathy right there. 

 

I don't know whether this might be helpful for your mouth but I find  the amino acid Lycine good if I get mouth ulcers or cold sores.  I take 500mg 3 times  a day.  I don't know if your gum sensitivity is the same thing.  

 

Anyhow I am reducing by 1.5% every 2 weeks and holding until my sleep regulates  - that's it really.  I am able to wash my hair with shampoo at the moment for the first time in a year which is weird without getting a reaction- touching wood all over the place here.  My gamy hip has become really chronic at the moment and hurts most of the time when I am walking or standing on it.  I started up a new hip programme and hurt my knee so it was back into the physio which was disheartening.   

 

I have made the decision to slowly continue reducing the Mirt as it gives me a purpose for the time being.  The more I read about these drugs the more I want to get off them but ....slowly.  

 

I think of @Overwhelmedlady who has not posted or been on this site since early March and was in a bad way when I last communicated with her but she has not replied to my message asking how she was and to message further would be to trespass on her boundaries.  I don't think that she will post again - I wonder if she is even alive and that makes me very sad.  She was in very isolated and financially difficult situation.  

 

I hope that you get some relief from all those symptoms in the next while.

 

@JanCarol  Thanks very much for your great reply and I am glad that Susan Koenig's exercise proved a bit helpful for your neck - that meditation cushion came out looking absolutely huge and it's very red - it looks like something out of the original Star Trek series - I love it.  I will try and reply more when I get my negative mindset in check.

Oaktree1🌸

 

[Ariel]

Hi @Oaktree1

My heart goes out to you.

 

5 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

I have not been posting in a while as I can't even stop my mouth from going off at the keyboard and I see that it's all negative. 

 

I would just like to share that this sounds very familiar to me. I have at times experienced something similar. I believe it to be withdrawal-related. 

When this happens the trick is to try not to judge myself for it. If I beat myself up about it and go into a shame spiral it makes everything that much worse. I have certainly sent some veeeery long vituperative emails... mostly to companies, corporations, media outlets, etc. (which I can recommend, if one is so inclined -- no guilt or shame there! although beware reinforcement of any underlying mood); but also unfortunately sometimes to private persons whom I care about deeply, with painful consequences in case of the latter.

 

Most of this is years ago when withdrawal was at its worst -- it does get better.

 

Nevertheless it still makes me wince to think about. My behavior and communication were unwittingly destructive, and I can't undo that. All I can do is try to forgive myself, which I practice every day. I accept that I was acting under the influence of a injured brain and nervous system and was actually physiological incapable of controlling my actions in those particular circumstances.  As my body heals I find a little more space around these experiences and the meta-distress around them does not have the same hold it once did. Not least, as I process/progress in recovery, my physical capacity for self-control and purposeful agency is increasing, and I experience improvements in my ability to pause, step away, apply non-drug coping techniques, gain perspective, make different choices, etc. 

 

Something I still experiment with when I find myself in the grips of overwhelming, uncomfortable neuro-emotion is how to a) harness its power for good (e.g. channel any energy into bottom-up complaints, or what someone might call "punching up"); b) pivot -- emotional energy is mutable and can be diverted; e.g. if i am filled with rage, I try not to dwell on labeling it "anger"; instead I say to myself, "Wow, I am filled with this surging force right now," and I try to feel into my body, explore where in my body I feel the "surging force" (for example, in my balled-up fists or my shoulders around my neck). I try to really feel those sensations and move my body in any way I can -- gently, sensitively, just moving, swaying, whatever feels good, and making sure to include opening, expansive, dispersive motions to potentially counteract any energetic tension, contraction, blockages (for me it seems to work best to tune in and do this intuitively but I am guessing there are many different possibilities for more structured approaches). (Not sure I am articulating this effectively, please let me know if you have questions.) I cannot think of an instance when something or other did not shift as a result of this practice.  

 

Sometimes it helps to listen to some music, which I find can be a great "shortcut" to switching into a different mood. You know those big mechanical railroad levers that can be used to manually change tracks? I picture a song or musical interlude sorta being able to have that effect in our brains (not sure that's factual, just how it feels to me). Maybe you have already played around with this, I am new to your thread and may have missed a lot. There are times when my sensory processing sensitivities flare up and music/sound is not an option, but sometimes it's a great aid.

 

It is not my intention to offer unsolicited advice (yikes!) but to share with you my experience in the aim of conveying:

You are not alone. + It gets better. 

 

In the meantime, I'm sorry you're going through this.

With love,

A.

 

 

[Ariel]

P.S. 

 

I'm so sorry, @Oaktree1, I'm just re-reading your previous exchange with JanCarol in which you mention that you don't listen to music anymore since it wasn't possible in worst withdrawal. On the whole it looks like you and JC and others have already covered everything I wrote to you about.

Please feel free to disregard my message if it's annoying or repetitive or superfluous or unwelcome in any way. No pressure to respond. 

 

By the way, I appreciate the somatics video you posted a while back. Thank you for sharing that. 

 

Peace, 

A.

 

[JanCarol]

Hey Oaktree - 

 

Ireland!  Oh heck, I didn't think about that.

 

A friend of mine's mother (and maybe grandmother, too) was in the Magdalene system, I don't know the particulars, but I do know that, generationally, it has messed up at least 3-4 generations.  My friend's daughters, maybe not so much, but my friend = definitely suppressed, repressed, struggled and unable to express her traumas (add to it the English "stiff upper lip," she's got both.  And now she's drugged, too).  We are in Australia, but the trauma of the Magdalenes travelled thousands of miles to be expressed here.

 

And the psychiatric prisons (really, they surely can't be considered as 'treatment') are not so different.

 

There's a famous case in Ireland of a woman whose husband got locked away 20 (?) years ago, and she's been fighting to get him out ever since, watching the decay in his body and mind as they 'treated' him.  Sorry, I wish I could remember their names, now.

 

I acknowledge your anger.  (I do the same, cringing when I hear people talk about how proudly they take their drugs...)

I acknowledge your pain.  (lol I get to work with this one, too)
 

I hear you.

 

Sometimes that's all we can do.  That - and know - it will get better.  Maybe it will only be 5-10% at a time, but it will get better.

 

I hope you see the sun today,

JC

Edited May 12, 2022 by JanCarol

[arbor]

Dear revered @Oaktree1--

I was so relieved to hear from you.  I often say to myself, I wonder how Oaktree is doing.  I don't read your post as aggressive anger, but indignant anger--and acutely articulated.  For humanity, I thank you.  I also thank you from the broken heart of my own experiences.   Our hearts fester under the cloak of silence.  To feel snubbed by our families, let alone our societies takes the breath for words right out of my lungs.  I'm so glad you're not silenced.  I'd like to hold with you the burden of your despair, so that you don't have to be further hurt by the toll.  What I've been sensing from my ongoing experience of w/d is that 2 things are going on in my anger.  First, there's the justified aspect, and second, the inferno-like catastrophe of my brain being actively and constantly tortured.  The second has a life of its own.  I'm so grateful that people on this forum know what that's like.  The second also makes it nearly impossible for me to communicate with tact.  I read how much you struggle to stay in touch with your consideration and empathy for others.  I don't think you'd make that effort without knowing it's there in you deeply already.  Your anger itself, strikes me as an outcry of empathy--the funneling avenue w/d leaves us with.  I long to reclaim my full brain that can allow me to dwell in quietude while addressing the destruction our societies are perpetrating.  Your clarity is really valuable.  I hope that you can find a measure of peace, however temporary, in sharing and being heard.  I think the peacefulness, however it happens, helps in healing.

 

There are many things you've brought up that I would like to respond to.  For one thing, I've ordered Samett's book from the library.  And thank you for "omerta" !, a new one for me.

Sending you hugs, and pats to your kitties,

Arbor

[Oaktree1]

Thank you Arbor,

 

I am so glad you were not upset by my post and it was so nice to hear from you.  I am glad that you've ordered Matt Samet's book - I think you will enjoy it - he writes with lyricism and vivid detail and his descriptions of his psychiatrist known as 'Dr Porridge' are as funny as they are cutting.   I relate to the descriptions of psychiatrists in it by and large - he mainly describes male ones -  he met some shockingly indifferent and callous people.

 

Thank you Ariel for your detailed explanation of movement work to calm emotional storms.  I really appreciate the time and trouble you took to help me out.   I have read a lot of your thread and parts of your very first post bring me to tears - you should write more.

 

I am afraid that I am right in the middle of big storm tonight .  I told the new therapist my story; I nearly went to the police about it finally over 12 years ago but balked at the last moment; it is something that I had two initial contacts with the rape crisis centre about in the past 12 years one recently in 2021 but I did not pursue it subsequently.  There is a mandatory reporting requirement and I am dependent for part of my income on the person concerned.  I could not risk the whole apple cart being upset - it would implode the whole family - there is a semblance of normality... well not much but a little. 

 

I told the therapist who asked me if I had contacted the rape crisis centre who deal with sexual abuse.  She asked me if I had contacted the police.  I told her that I cannot afford to go to the police. 

I  told the therapist that the only reason I was able to afford to pay her was because of this person's income.  I told the other parent and one of my siblings - they don't seem to want to accept the import of it.  My other parent is broken and co dependant - she knows what this person is but she is unwell psychologically and physically- on many medications.   

 

I know that this site is not a crisis helpline and I am not suicidal or anything like that.  I just feel trapped.  I know that even writing this here is risky but I want to bear witness to what happened to me even if it is only anonymously.  I think there are many women like that out in the world who are trapped like that.  I told my GP about it a few years and she said that a lot of people only feel safe when the person dies and then talk about what happened to them.   It is on my psychiatric file too and it's on my GP file. 

 

But i have to live with the fact that due to my own inability to get away and form an independent life mainly due to what I endured the psychiatric system that I was subsequently unable to form a separate life away from my family of origin and became dependent.  I had to come back after I had two mental health incidents when I was away at college. 

 

I had bonded as child with a lady who used to look after my mum - she was the only person I felt safe with growing up and that relationship became very unhealthy when I was in college - I lived with her and she treated me like a child and I liked that because I did not want to be an adult -  I had buried the abuse but became phobic about my sexuality - I pretended that it didn't exist and it was easier to do that by living with her and pretending.   I didn't have any insight at all - just fear - just wanting to feel safe - she was the only person who could make me feel safe - who was able to make me feel like I mattered and was loved.  Unfortunately that relationship become abusive too as she did not respect any of my boundaries and became quite vampiric, ringing me multiple times a day and I would have to spend long periods with her every day - otherwise she would phone and guilt trip me that she was lonely. 

 

She encouraged me to leave my university residence and stay with her as it was 'lonely'; part of me knew that I needed to break away but I was frightened of doing so having been grossly bullied in adolescence so living in a residence was terrifying.    Of course I caved in - I did not have a relationship with either parent at that time - one of my parents never even found out what I was studying at college - I was there for years only doing one thing- he did not even have that interest.  But of course they were very annoyed when I went into psychiatric care - then I became an active embarrassment and that's when the physical abuse became bad.  It amazes me that no psychiatrist ever helped me during this period or saw what was happening.   I had a male psychiatrist and then a female one.

 

I kept on over the years splitting off what happened to me and trying to pretend that basically my family was ok and that I was ok even though I ended up celibate.  Neither could I sing in the house when this person was there as he beat me up once when I was singing in my room and that was in my 20's.    I am scared of him and the other male sibling who has also threatened violence towards me again when I was in my 20's and has been very abusive over the years - telling me I'm useless, selfish, lazy would be better off dead etc.

 

The other thing that made it hard to leave was that I developed a stutter the year my parents first broke up after a bad episode.  The stutter came back when I was a teenager and got worse.  It was bad in school.  I asked my parents for speech therapy but they refused to get it for me - I am still angry over that - there was no excuse.  One of my parents said that I was 'manufacturing my stutter'.   This gave me a complex that I was indeed putting it on even though I was stammering and blocking when being asked to read in school and so when I spoke in front of him I used to avoid words and try not to stutter.  The stutter made employment difficult.  My stutter would come and go depending on how nervous I was but I could never control it.  I was finally able to afford to visit a speech therapist in my 30's and she said that it was psychological not neurological and she couldn't help me. 

 

So I often think  of Billy Babett in 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest'  I was a bit like him except that my stutter wasn't as bad and I am still alive.  

 

I hid my stutter for years by avoiding words but now I  have had enough of that also - it's hard when people laugh at you though or look at you like you're mad - well I am -  ha ha.  I worked in a call centre once and the words that were really hard - direct debit - how I hated that one - also had to substitute 'direct of debit' or some such filler.  

 

So to be honest I know this is a site for getting off drugs but ultimately why do a lot of people go on drugs in the first place?  They go on them because they break down or are unable to cope in some because they don't have enough support or personal resources or they're not psychopaths.  I think psychopaths and narcissists and sociopaths generally bounce along very well in this world - I should know - one of my parents was one.   

 

It is good for me to put this down here.  I am unable to get justice for what happened to me as is the case with many victims of abuse but putting it is bearing witness and that makes me feel better. 

 

Oaktree 

[JanCarol]

Hey Oaktree - 

 

You are expressing yourself amazingly well.  This kind of clarity is essential to healing.

 

They have done studies about the way back from "schizophrenia" for example, and the ones who heal are the ones who can articulate their suffering.

 

It's not about wailing with your pain, but clearly expressing and clarifying what the emotions and feelings are, how they got there, etc.  This expressive clarity will serve you well.

 

The other thing I've been working on is the "whodunnit" of pain.  That it is less vital to solve the mystery of "who did what" to me, this only reinforces the victim state.  I'm not saying that injustice and wrongs are to be forgiven, only that "solving the mystery" does not necessarily heal the pain.  You can stay in the "whodunnit" mode for decades in therapy, and never actually release the trauma.

 

What does heal the pain has nothing to do with what happened to you.  Carolyn Myss talks about "raising the vibration," but another teacher I am reading says to "raise the voltage," the intensity, the electricity of the feelings, so that you can burn out the trauma.  Other ways of rising above the trauma involve TRE - Trauma Releasing Exercises, where you use the pain in your body to release the pain in your emotions.  Shaking is often a good practice for TRE, but there are others.

 

Kim Eng - Shaking Practice 

 

 

7 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

So to be honest I know this is a site for getting off drugs but ultimately why do a lot of people go on drugs in the first place? 

 

That, dear lady, is the crux of the biscuit.

 

I've found that most of us got drugged for a reason.  There are many cases of people who were put on the drugs for non-emotional reasons, such as menopause, or pain - and now, COVID (courses of fluvoxamine are being prescribed for brain inflammation).  But most of us were put on them because we were thrashing about in agony, depression, anxiety - as a reaction to the stressors of our lives.  Growing up, we learned strategies that may have been fine in childhood (like temper tantrums) in order to survive.  But in adulthood, those strategies no longer serve.  So we get drugged for our "behaviour," too.

 

People can get off the drugs using tapering and practical methods.  But if they don't deal with the emotions that they have numbed with the drugs, the emotions will return, the poor coping strategies will return, and you look "mentally ill" again.

So you are doing awesome work with working these things out. 

 

I hope you see the sun today.

[Ariel]

@Oaktree1

So much of what you share resonates with me. I can relate to many aspects of your story. 

 

My heart goes out to you for what you have been through. I am so sorry for your suffering. 

 

You are so brave and smart and capable, and you write with such eloquence. I trust you are equipped to make it through. I trust that you will heal, and that you are healing. May you embrace yourself with the same compassion and empathy you show others.   

 

You mentioned in a previous post that you

 

On 5/11/2022 at 12:30 PM, Oaktree1 said:

would like to see many more people from this site get to the point of writing about their recovery

 

-- in my mind that includes you. I would love to encounter your memoir one day! I realize you are still tapering, but it's great that you are finding the energy to write from the trenches. Your posts are important and valuable, not only to me. 

 

Thank you for being here.

I hold space for your experience, past and present.  

Love,

A.

 

 

[arbor]

Thank you @Oaktree1for continuing to hang in there.  I will respond more when I have more space to write.  You've had to deal with so much.  

I hold you in my thoughts,

Arbor

[Oaktree1]

On 5/2/2022 at 11:01 AM, JanCarol said:

However, you need to be really dedicated to learn Tai Chi from books (which I have done when desperate for a teacher).  I recommend Paul Lam's DVD's - perhaps "Tai Chi for Arthritis" will help with your hips.

@JanCarol

 

Well I spent two hours last night doing Paul Lam's Tai Chi introductory classes on Youtube and then I invested in a second hand copy of  the DVD on arthritis.  I found that by doing it and watching him that I could kind of still my mind - that it was mindfulness in action like you write above.  Thank you for sending me this valuable link.  He seems a lovely man and has his own story of arthritic pain.   I am doing somatics too but the thing about somatics is that most of is done lying down and it doesn't teach you how to relax or move in standing.  Anyhow I am going to work off  Tai Chi videos on Youtube until the DVD's arrived. 

 

Thanks for the link to the zoom class of your Tai Chi school back in Indiana.  Financially I can only commit to so much at present - I will see how I get on with the DVD's - I may drop in on a class - maybe - I'm not a fan of Zoom and phobically socially avoidant at this point but they look like nice people.  

 

"Other ways of rising above the trauma involve TRE - Trauma Releasing Exercises, where you use the pain in your body to release the pain in your emotions.  Shaking is often a good practice for TRE, but there are others."

 

I actually bought David Bercelli's Trauma Releasing Exercises' ten years ago would you believe as the chronic pain issues I have are going back to good old 2008.  They resulted in even worse back pain which was disheartening.  The chronic pain was the reason I went back on drugs in 2007 and ultimately ended up on Cymbalta.   Bessel van der Kolk's book 'The Body keeps the Score' finally shed light on why the chronic pain happened. 

 

Let's face it - even the official medical establishment admit that they have no idea of the organic causes of 80% of body pain and why some people with arthritic damage have little or no pain and others with less damage are crippled with it.   I have been down the chronic pain research road starting when I started to suffer from it in 2007.  I have read  John Sarno - the MD - who  developed tension myositis syndrome.    You probably have already read of him.  He was convinced that the body was manifesting the emotional turmoil and recommended a psychoanalytic approach.  I got the workbook book written by his successor (can't remember his name) - it didn't work for me I'm afraid.  It was all mind work and I needed to try and get back into the body which is why the Tai Chi is so helpful.

 

I have had very good relationships throughout my life with  physiotherapists - they are worth their weight in gold those people.  One of them (an academic one) was the person who told me that 80% of body pain is unexplained - the medics don't yet know the cause - that was back in 2007.

 

Nevertheless I did the shaking link you recommended and it's quite gentle so again thank you. 

 

Reading Bessel van der Kolk 's book was a bit of a breakthrough for me in understanding why I have pain -  people who have suffered trauma or abuse are more prone to chronic pain.   

"And the psychiatric prisons (really, they surely can't be considered as 'treatment') are not so different.

 

There's a famous case in Ireland of a woman whose husband got locked away 20 (?) years ago, and she's been fighting to get him out ever since, watching the decay in his body and mind as they 'treated' him.  Sorry, I wish I could remember their names, now.

 

I acknowledge your anger.  (I do the same, cringing when I hear people talk about how proudly they take their drugs...)

I acknowledge your pain.  (lol I get to work with this one, too)"

 

Thanks so much for that.  I confess I don't know the case of the woman whose husband was locked up for years but there are so many other cases that I know of. 

 

I feel very isolated when I read in the media of literary and other personalities taking about their 'mental illness'.  One of them wrote that she now calls her drugs 'Olanzapals' (play on the drug Olanzapine that she wrote she found a 'tough drug to be on when she was put on it').  She also wrote that being in hospital 'saved her ..life'.  Every few months in this country now somebody noteworthy goes public about their 'mental illness' and their 'meds' and talks glowingly of their 'treatment' and their acceptance of their schizophrenia or bipolar II or whatever.  You never hear any other viewpoint.  I accept that for this person they had a positive experience in hospital and are happy in that position but it's hard when your own story is not covered at all. 

 

The official view in my family is that I have 'an illness' and 'need to get treated'.  When I last was pushed to go into treatment the clinician relative spoke to the psychiatrist who saw me and I got access to the medical report afterwards from my GP.  It was very obvious from reading it that the relative had cast me in a very negative light.  The psychiatrist actually said to me at the interview - 'if you won't think it for yourself (i.e admit myself to hospital) then why don't you do it for others?'  The implication was that I was being selfish and irresponsible.  That was when I was in the middle of withdrawal from Cymbalta when most of the symptoms kicked in. 

 

He wrote in his report that my family were 'very concerned about her as they see her future epping away '.  That remark is really laughable when I think about it now - my mother was the only one ever concerned about me.   I have only skirted some of the stuff that happened to me over the course of my life and continued to happen until I took a stand and went to a lawyer and made a protective letter which was sent to my GP and is to be acted on if any further attempt was made to put me back in hospital.   

 

I have to accept that I live at odds with most of my family of origin two of whom are psychiatrists and society at large in the kip where I live and leave it at that.   I haven't told any of them that I am tapering.  I just say I am liquidising the dose so it gets into my system faster.  At the rate I am going I'll probably be dead before I get off but I don't care.  It's my own little private war of attrition.

 

Thanks again JanCarol - it did me so much good to read your advice all delivered in such great good humour.

 

Oaktree1 🌸

[Oaktree1]

On 5/13/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ariel said:

So much of what you share resonates with me. I can relate to many aspects of your story. 

 

My heart goes out to you for what you have been through. I am so sorry for your suffering. 

 

Thanks Ariel,

 

I am very grateful for your reply - it means a lot to me to read  your compassion - not to get too schmaltzy about it.   

 

I don't know if I will ever get the point of writing a memoire - I don't trust to be honest that things will end well for me and that's ok.  Just being able to stand up for myself as i have been doing in the last few years is good enough for me even if that means I don't end well - I mean in the sense of my financial or living circumstances getting worse which is very much on the cards.  

 

I think you are the one who is eloquent but thanks for saying that.

 

Oaktree1. 🌸

 

[arbor]

Dear @Oaktree1I appreciate your spirit and outlook.  It sounds like you've done so much to help yourself, even without emotional support from your family.  I'm glad you've got a therapist to talk with who can give you one-on-one help in person.  I can imagine there's a lot to work through.  And then on top of that, there's the effects of the drugs--another trauma.  If it's helpful, I'll share that I've also found EMDR to be useful.  I've continued to get EMDR and acupuncture during w/d.  Right now I'm dealing with sleep deprivation again, but I like to think they're useful.

Sending you healing wishes for the past as well as the present,

Arbor

 

[Oaktree1]

Hi @arbor

 

Thanks for posting.  I just read all your thread again - I don't know how you are in one piece at all - there must be a core of steel in you. 

 

I look at the posts you made in January 2021 and October 2021 on your sleep improving.  If it can happen once then it can happen again.  Your past health issues are like one of those terrifying thrillers when once you think the danger is past, it comes quickly around the dark corner - the heart attacks, the seratonin syndrome, the diabetes now in remission, the skin issues which have waxed and waned, the low ferritin levels now I hope improving.   The longer you are off these drugs the more healing you are going through I believe.  

 

It is a sunny day where I am but I can't go walking due to the hip issues which is either tendonitis or arthritis (multiple MRI's and medical interventions and the medical profession still can't make up their minds.  So I am now headed down to do tai chi in the back patio with Tai Chi for Dummies to try and take advantage of the weather.

 

The EMDR sounds great and I first read about in it in Bessel van der Kolk's book.  However I am very, very wary of counsellors (I could fill a book with some of the ego driven horrors I met over the years - I have attended over seven of them, most for well over three years.  The damage that some of them did to my psyche was nearly as bad as what the drugs did.   One of the benefits of getting older is that you finally develop a bit of cop on about people who are on power trips.  The present therapist was a personal recommendation from someone I would trust.  She does not practice EMDR although there is a number of people near me who do.  I'll probably attend for a few sessions with her but not long term.   

 

I hope your health continues to improve Arbor

 

Oaktree1 🌸 

[JanCarol]

Hey Oaktree - 

 

On 5/14/2022 at 10:02 PM, Oaktree1 said:

Well I spent two hours last night doing Paul Lam's Tai Chi introductory classes on Youtube and then I invested in a second hand copy of  the DVD on arthritis.  I found that by doing it and watching him that I could kind of still my mind - that it was mindfulness in action like you write above.  Thank you for sending me this valuable link.  He seems a lovely man and has his own story of arthritic pain.

 

This is such a good thing!  A step in the direction of hedonic rehabilitation!

He is a very gentle & caring man, he lives here in Australia, but has teachers using his methods all over the world (I am one of thousands).  I've met him, and he is truly passionate about advancing Tai Chi for everyone, anyone, as many as possible.  Seeing his body in person was amazing, he has such smooth grace to his moves.

The Tai Chi for Arthritis is an awesome place to begin.  It's a balanced form, so once you get the hang of it, you will find that for each move you do on the left, you will do it also on the right.  It's really a well designed form.  If you were in my class, I would suggest paying attention to listening (yes, listening) to where your weight is on your feet.  I feel that with this form, learning to follow your weight, your gravity, is a key to making it most effective.

Additionally, if you get bored with Paul Lam (though, he has dozens of DVDs, you could just stick with him), there's always Qigong.  Robert Peng and Lee Holden are two of my favourites on DVD.  The nice thing about Qigong, is the benefits of tai chi are there, but you just follow along, you don't need to memorize.  So when you're feeling really cog-fogged, it's easier to do Qigong.

Here's one of my favourites:

Qi Gong: 7 Minutes of Magic for Health

 

The reason I like this one, is it is hard to think of excuses not to do 7 minutes.  It's easy to say, "Oh, I don't want to do a whole half hour."  But 7 minutes?  No excuse!

I have found that this little 7 minute set is sometimes just enough to relax and feel better.

 

I have quite a few of his DVD's (among others) and his routines are a little more vigorous.  But there are zillions of Qigong videos on YouTube.  Another of my favourites (and much more gentle) is the YoQi YouTube channel.  She's beautiful to look at, and very relaxing to play with.  (in tai chi, we don't call it "practice," we call it "play!")

 

On 5/14/2022 at 10:02 PM, Oaktree1 said:

Nevertheless I did the shaking link you recommended and it's quite gentle so again thank you. 

 

This one is not about TRE, it's about releasing tension.  I keep it in my SA toolkit for akathisia sufferers, but it is good for many things.  For dumping difficult emotions, moving through them without denying them.  For releasing "fight / flight / freeze" based anxiety.  For waking up in the morning.  I'm glad you found it pleasurable.  (there's that "pleasure" word again, look out!  😆)

 

On 5/14/2022 at 10:02 PM, Oaktree1 said:

I actually bought David Bercelli's Trauma Releasing Exercises' ten years ago would you believe as the chronic pain issues I have are going back to good old 2008.  They resulted in even worse back pain which was disheartening.

 

OH I can imagine!  You know the relaxation exercise where you bunch up all your muscle tightly as you inhale and the release as you exhale?  My teacher does that in tai chi class, and I just can't do that one.  ME/Fibromyalgia, whatever it is - that just drives the tension in more deeply for me (even though it's considered a safe, relaxing exercise by Dr. Lam)

So I can imagine that the more extreme shaking and thrashing business could be challenging for pain.

 

About pain . . . 

On 5/14/2022 at 10:02 PM, Oaktree1 said:

Bessel van der Kolk's book 'The Body keeps the Score' finally shed light on why the chronic pain happened. 

 

Let's face it - even the official medical establishment admit that they have no idea of the organic causes of 80% of body pain and why some people with arthritic damage have little or no pain and others with less damage are crippled with it.   I have been down the chronic pain research road starting when I started to suffer from it in 2007.  I have read  John Sarno - the MD - who  developed tension myositis syndrome.    You probably have already read of him.  He was convinced that the body was manifesting the emotional turmoil and recommended a psychoanalytic approach. 

 

I agree with this.  And I don't.  Or I struggle with this.  

 

My first question to myself - for decades now - has been:  "what would I be like, what would my life be, who would I be, if I weren't a 'woman in pain'?"  (answer, probably a dynamic, engaged, exciting, active, productive woman - am I afraid of this woman?)

 

I know where I have structural problems, "arthritic changes," where I've had surgery and injections, where I'm locked up, what it's like to not walk or stand very well (and other times when it is okay)...so to be told "it's all in my head," as is fashionable these days of opioid crisis, is somewhat insulting and my ego takes a hit.  Surely if it were "all in my head" I could fix it?

But it seems, as you have discovered, that the only way to fixed the pain body is through the body.  Those of you reading who are versed in Eckhart Tolle's "pain body" - please jump in and explain it, because I've never understood the difference between the "pain body" and the "body," and the "ego."  

And - I have such a deep fear of psychiatry and their drugs & labels & processes, that to me it is dangerous to send someone to a psychiatrist for pain, as Van Del Kolk suggests.  Maybe if they were all Van del Kolk - or Gabor Mate, but you know and I know that they aren't!

 

Anytime someone suggests I "get my head examined," well, I head in the opposite direction.  And now, psychiatrists and GP's are more than happy to hand out antidepressants & anti-seizure drugs for pain.  No thank you.  If it requires a taper of more than a week, no thank you!

And then the other side of the coin, psychoanalysis = we are back into "whodunnit" territory again.  Do I really need to know who broke into my house and smashed all my dishes, or why, or what the intent was?  Maybe, just maybe, this information will help me develop compassion for them - but the bottom line is, I need to sweep up the broken dishes, repair the doors or windows, and maybe do something to improve my locks.  But do I need to see their face, or hear their story?  I'm not so sure.  And the flip side of that coin - do I need to relive the experience, and how many times, in order to heal?

 

On 5/14/2022 at 10:02 PM, Oaktree1 said:

I feel very isolated when I read in the media of literary and other personalities taking about their 'mental illness'.  One of them wrote that she now calls her drugs 'Olanzapals' (play on the drug Olanzapine that she wrote she found a 'tough drug to be on when she was put on it').  She also wrote that being in hospital 'saved her ..life'.

 

I'm guessing this is Lady Gaga.  Sigh.

 

I'll tell you a story.  Early in my tapering days, I was at the Post Office, and my mate working there was telling me that a friend of his, who was some sort of peer support counselor, head of his local chapter at Beyond Blue (a depression org here), committed suicide.

I didn't have a regulator on my mouth, and blurted out, "It was probably the drugs that did it!"

I mean, I knew the guy, I thought I was among friends.  Plus - you know - neuro-emotions, and that sense of righteous anger when you first learn about the destroyed lives from the drugs, the hardships they cause - and the "cure" that is simply not there.

 

You could've heard a pin drop in the Post Office, and there were a few audible gasps before that.

 

Very Awkward.

 

 

Needed to nail my tongue to my palatte on that one.

So you are NOT alone, but you are not in the majority.  I sometimes comment on Facebook and YouTube, and it always (ALWAYS!) shocks me to see how many people are buying into the lie.  And it hurts - because I know that - Gaga is going to suffer.  She may not see it now, but she's going to suffer.  I'm not wishing it on her, it's just the price of the drug.   She will have to do radical things to keep her weight down.  Her brain will change, and her creativity will suffer (though her outrageousness may not).  Over time, her body will begin to breakdown as her Olanzapals start to turn on her.  It's inevitable, it might take 3, 5, 10, even 20 years - but it is inevitable.  (Patty Duke made it to 70, Carrie Fisher only to 60.  I just turned 60, I'm not done yet).  And - this knowing that they will fall from their drugged places - isn't righteous, it's painful, it's sorrowful, you want to prevent them all.

I want to prevent my sister, my friends, from taking them and suffering as I did, as I have seen so many who have.  And they (who are diag-nonsensed as mad) think I'm mad for not believing that their "illness is real" and they "need their drugs."  Bark bark bark!!!  So I guess I am mad, because it's very much against the flow of the mainstream view of things.
 

So your reality has shifted, and you are dealing with the cognitive dissonance.  They said this would help you, but it didn't.  And -

 

On 5/14/2022 at 10:02 PM, Oaktree1 said:

The official view in my family is that I have 'an illness' and 'need to get treated'.  When I last was pushed to go into treatment the clinician relative spoke to the psychiatrist who saw me and I got access to the medical report afterwards from my GP.

This sounds like gaslighting.  Keeping you in your place with diag-nonsenses.

 

You know things.  You are dangerous.  It is safer if you are the "crazy one" and your word is not to be trusted - because if it was, well.  Dangerous.

 

And even if this is not the case (i'm always willing to consider the best in people), those who have been so trained, in medicine, nurses, psychiatrists - are the most invested in the mainstream view which you and I see as so wrong.  Their livelihoods, their belief systems, their very reality depends upon it.

I wish I could say 'get out' or 'bide your time,' or 'your time will come,' or even 'it will get better'  but I don't know, really.  You don't either.  All you can ever do is your best.  And work for BETTER.

 

Given what you have on your plate, you are doing very well with that.  Really.  Believe me.  

 

I hope you see the sun today,

JC

 

[JanCarol]

38 minutes ago, Oaktree1 said:

The EMDR sounds great and I first read about in it in Bessel van der Kolk's book.  However I am very, very wary of counsellors

 

Hey Oaktree - 

I've never done it with a counsellor.  But when I go for my trigger point shots, I played with my eyes.  The shots fill me with terror, because they hurt, and I'm never sure where he's going to do it or how many sticks of the needle, or how much goop he will inject.  It feels better after it's over, but it's kinda terrifying while I'm on his table.

So - I was talking to another mate here on SA about EMDR, and he never did it with a therapist, either.

I haven't received any training or read any books or watched any videos, but when I was on that injection table, I started consciously looking all the way left, hold a sec, then right, hold a sec.  As far as I could stretch my eyes, left and right, back and forth. 

 

And it did do something.  I don't know how to explain it.  So it was either:
1.  The placebo effect, I was "doing something" and so it "did something"
2.  The mindfulness effect; while I was focused on my eyes, I wasn't thinking about needles so much.

3.  Maybe it works?

My brother in law had an arrow chart.  He learned from a therapist how to use it.  The arrows pointed the direction he was supposed to point his eyes.  It became a daily exercise for him - just 5 minutes or so of eye work.  He claimed great benefit.

 

His chart was something like this:  https://www.bernell.com/product/BCAAC/152

 

Again - all of this toolkit stuff - maybe you get 1% improvement from this, and 5% improvement from that - but improvement is improvement.  Take what you can get!

I hope you see the sun today.

[arbor]

Thank you @Oaktree1for your kind words.  They help a lot.  Today's a difficult day so I'll make this brief.  I'm also disturbed by the approaches of many therapists.  If you can find a good one, however, therapy can be life-changing for the better from what I've seen.  I support whatever works for you, and am down on whatever is harmful.

Sending you hugs,

Arbor

[Oaktree1]

On 5/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, JanCarol said:

If you were in my class, I would suggest paying attention to listening (yes, listening) to where your weight is on your feet.  I feel that with this form, learning to follow your weight, your gravity, is a key to making it most effective.

Hi @JanCarol

 

That was actually what I was doing - funny you should say that.  I tend to walk on my toes (have done since young) and find sinking down into my feet difficult.   I have been using my book 'Tai chi for Dummies' (well if I'm honest last used it outside on Sunday and Monday) and going through bow stance, empty step and the basic tai chi stance and arms and the warm ups.  I am really looking forward to getting the Paul Lam CV. 

 

My biggest problem is doing stuff every day - I get bored very easily - I can do something once or even twice and then I get bored.  So I flit from one thing to another.  I recognise it now more and more in myself.  The inability to organise my day or stick to anything.  Last night I went back to my basic callisthenics as I was watching a film - in order words, planks, press ups, tricep dips.  

 

I love the Qi Gong video you sent me and have watched it in full - this is a definite one that I am going to do tomorrow.  

 

There is an excellent thread about not investing in drama.  In the thread Altostrata posts the comment below which is the nub of the matter

Posted September 21, 2015

 

"If you want to live without psychiatric drugs, you need to learn to manage your symptoms with non-drug methods. This is a necessity for anyone on this site. It means managing the self-destructive patterns that led you to psychiatric care as well as withdrawal symptoms."

 

And that is why finding something that will allow me to self soothe is so important and even more important because of my life circumstances.  I think that Tai Chi might be it.  As you put it before it is a movement meditation.. Stationery meditation - I can't do.  Every time I attempt Yoga I get injured.  I can actually feel my tense muscles and the fascia when I do the arm movements of Tai Chi.  It forces my brain to slow down

 

On 5/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, JanCarol said:

Those of you reading who are versed in Eckhart Tolle's "pain body" - please jump in and explain it, because I've never understood the difference between the "pain body" and the "body," and the "ego."

 

Amen to that - I tried and tried to read 'The Power of Now' but the denseness of the thought process in it was too much for me - I never understood the difference either and I listened to his talks online - had to pack it in eventually.  I know loads of people can tune into his wavelength but I'm not one of them

On 5/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, JanCarol said:

Do I really need to know who broke into my house and smashed all my dishes, or why, or what the intent was?  

That's a good analogy.  For me I have to say I needed to know because I had no insight at all and didn't see the effect that people's behaviour had one me.  But knowing how you got somewhere  doesn't give you a key to get out of it.  It doesn't teach you how to fix the locks and sweep up the shattered delph.  That's the big problem with traditional therapy particularly psychoanalytic therapy which I've had two bouts of.  And as to how many times do you have to repeat it?  Well I have to say the repetition of wrongs just makes my rumination worse - it's like firing huge rocks into a dirty pond - the rocks sink to the silt in the bottom and disappear you see all the filthy water of bad memories churning around but gradually it settles and nothing changes.  In other words I suppose I am tired to revisiting old hurts in therapists offices and being told 'how awful that was for you' because it does not change anything.

 

On 5/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, JanCarol said:

And - I have such a deep fear of psychiatry and their drugs & labels & processes, that to me it is dangerous to send someone to a psychiatrist for pain, as Van Del Kolk suggests.  Maybe if they were all Van del Kolk - or Gabor Mate, but you know and I know that they aren't!

 

Yes - I am with you on the deep fear of the above.  I had to attend for my three month review a few days ago in the psychiatric facility and also put on a good face when I go in.  I am scared of psychiatrists but I play the game.  I don't have a choice as it's my income currently.  

 

The Olazapal comment is not from Gaga but a bestselling and (from what I understand although  I haven't read her stuff) journalist and writer.  She's made several suicide attempts I understand and had some psychotic episodes - I read a bit of her story and she seems to have gone down the psychiatric road after a bit of recreational drug use.  

On 5/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, JanCarol said:

Needed to nail my tongue to my palatte on that one.

God I know that feeling.  Sometimes stuff just slips out.  I was in a group a few years ago for survivors of abuse with nice counsellors  facilitating it and I spoke up and said I didn't believe in any of the psychiatric labels and I could see one of the counsellors kind of contracting a little in her face.  As it transpired her mum was diagnosed as bipolar but as she spoke she loosened out and spoke about the difficulties her mother experienced with even such things as making a will or applying for mortgages because of her label.  I  think my saying that kind of opened a dialogue even though initially there was a bit of intake of breath.  There are many other situations though where I know there is no point in saying anything. 

 

In situations of death through even though it's very obvious these drugs cause chronicity say stuff out loud and it's 'ouch'

 

You're a real example to me I have to say as someone who lives with chronic pain and has to deal with it every day in a proactive way. 

 

Today I got migraine and I am on the ground with Jill Miller's rubber balls - which take the worst of the pain away.  She has a thing called 'The Roll Method' - she is yet another American physical therapist.  I find her movement exercises with balls a great release.  I got them off the evil retailer whose name begins with 'A' .  i wouldn't have been able to get them otherwise.   I have to be honest - these balls ( and she has all different sizes) are the best for pain and tension in my upper trapezius and rhomboids.  Sometimes I bring the larger ball into bed with and if I wake up with pain in my hip I just roll onto it and it dissipates.  She has two smallish balls that are marvellous for relieving tension and pain in the feet.  I don't know if this info might be helpful to you.  I make all these investments because otherwise it would be into a physical therapist every week or so and that's too expensive. 

 

I read that you do 2 massages per month and plenty of magnesium baths - it's got to be done - I think i will get some magnesium.

On 5/15/2022 at 3:00 PM, JanCarol said:

My first question to myself - for decades now - has been:  "what would I be like, what would my life be, who would I be, if I weren't a 'woman in pain'?"  (answer, probably a dynamic, engaged, exciting, active, productive woman - am I afraid of this woman?)

 I suppose that's the psychoanalytic questions right there.  But you do sound from reading your history sound like all of the above.

 

Anyway will sign off now - it takes me a few days to respond.  I have had more financial bad news two days ago (which I suppose come under the category of 'drama') but it kind of throws me then for a few days.

 

Thanks very much for your kind and supportive comments on the 'gaslighting' and medical intervention.  That's why for me self soothing and ability to calm myself down is a vital skill that i have to learn now. 

 

 I hope you are treating yourself to massage soon.

 

Oaktree 🌸

[Oaktree1]

On 5/15/2022 at 3:08 PM, JanCarol said:

I've never done it with a counsellor.  But when I go for my trigger point shots, I played with my eyes.  The shots fill me with terror, because they hurt, and I'm never sure where he's going to do it or how many sticks of the needle, or how much goop he will inject.  It feels better after it's over, but it's kinda terrifying while I'm on his table.

JanCarol

 

Don't want to be tagging you but I just want to reply also to this reply about the EMDR - I am going to try doing the short EMDR exercise that suggested and thanks very much for going to the trouble of letting me know about the simple EMDR technique.  I have a lot to be going on with now in terms of things to try. 

 

I have never had trigger point shots - I have had cortisone shots, nerve blocks and PRP but always got an anesthetic - I don't think that kind of treatment is available over here.  If the EMDR  technique works for terror though it might be worth a try.  You have had a tough old road with the pain journey.  

 

Today I tried the tapping method and the 'havening'  method when you stroke your arms with self soothing mantras to self sooth - did not work unfortunately. 

 

In too much pain from hip today to even do standing Tai Chi as I went for a small walk on the flat yesterday evening - seems even that was too much.   Now I am considering buying a foldaway exercise bike. 

 

When my emotional level gets beyond a certain point I can't concentrate enough to follow anything on a screen.

 

So when my meltdown was finished today and I am going to honest and say I had to take a Lexathan to get there because it was a really bad one - I got out my book on hip arthritis by Susan Westlake an IT consultant who cured hers through correcting muscular imbalances and spent most of the rest of day lying down doing the first gentle exercises.  It hurts to stand and sit so had to adapt.  I am also going to treat myself to a massage next week which I would never do for reasons of cost and the 'allowing a stranger to touch you problem'.  I will see how it goes.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HIP-Osteoarthritis-CAN-Cured-Treating/dp/1541100182/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8

 

Thanks for all your help and advice

 

Oaktree 

[Ariel]

Hi @Oaktree1

 

I've been thinking about you. Today while I was out for a walk I thought about how much I enjoy your writing. 

I don't have enough "hearts" to assign to your many lovely posts! Please know that I greatly admire your eloquence and your empathy. 

 

Thank you for sharing your story. It is very moving to witness your courage. I feel inspired by your bravery, honesty, integrity. You help me.

 

You have a beautiful capacity to reach out to connect with others. I appreciate how you express compassion and also contribute constructively by sharing insights and links based on personal experience. After reading one of your posts I always feel fortified and well-equipped to continue on. 

 

Thank you. I'm grateful for your presence here. <3

A.

[Oaktree1]

@Ariel

 

Thanks very much for your kind post.  I am glad to hear that reading my story makes you feel 'fortified'.  When I read it the other day it was a few days after my birthday and I was feeling very low.  It gave me a bit of a lift.  I am trying not to post too much on here about negative stuff.  However my birthday is a flash point for me every year.  Every year on that day I am reminded of how unimportant I am to my family of origin and due to social isolation it's pathetic to say but I'll write it anyway in the interests of truth and transparency there isn't anyone else.  It wasn't always that way but has become so in the last 10 years.

 

I have been reading a bit about what happens to siblings in dysfunctional families and it has been a very interesting explanation for the way family members have behaved towards me but also towards each other over the years.  It was and still very much is every man for himself even though I am very much the weakest link.

 

I remember reading in one of your extraordinary opening posts about your families inter generational trauma; what you described as your 'privilege' in being able to wear 'the emperor's new clothes' and manifest the unspoken which led you into the bowels of the psychiatric system for large parts of your life.  

 

On a much, much smaller scale than you, family members on both sides of my family were subject to serious violence and lost family members to violence during the various wars and rebellions in this small little country.  One of the family members would not speak of his childhood and the other one didn't speak for two years after his father's murder;  one became a workaholic, the other a narcissistic and racist drunk.  Any emotional life they possessed was given over to religion, sport and social advancement although one of them was devoted to his wife and children to give him his due.

 

What you describe so beautifully as 'unrelenting existential turmoil' I can relate to in some very, very small way.    I don't like where I live and have good reason not to do so unfortunately.  I do think that a lot of that though is connected to the difficult and stultifying family situation.  However I don't like the dynamics of my country in a wider sense.  It solves difficulties by enforced emigration or until recently locking people up - mainly powerless people.  In 1969 it had more people shut up in asylums per capita than any other country in the world including the USSR.  I remember reading that in a library book after I got free from the psychiatric hospital in the 1990's and it shocked me then - it still shocks me. 

 

I feel isolated here and that I have never belonged here.  The answer to that of course is that I should have left but the truth is that I never had the guts to leave.  I was all set to go to London once and on the day I was due to get the plane I stayed in bed - ha ha.  I have to laugh about that one; in fact I spent most of my life in flight and denial;  I missed the plane to London but took a flight ( bad pun) via fear and denial to psychiatry where I spent a large part of my twenties.   I did finally get to the UK rather late in life and loved it - I could not get employment though and could not afford housing so ultimately it was back to this place and the dole office.

 

My parents were always at odds - one used the house as a hotel and the other languished and manifested their unhappiness through repeated bouts of vague physical illness largely attributable to 'stress' the burden of care for which mostly fell to me - I had not been strong enough to hit eject like the rest of my siblings.  I don't think that in all my years I ever saw one of my parents every show any compassion or empathy to their spouse. 

 

The first 18 years for me was mainly a lot of being farmed out to various child minders one of whom I bonded with like a mother, a lot of neglect, frantic efforts to get any parental attention and all of the three abuses - E, P and S - mainly 'E';  What I remember most was anger that was both silent and occasionally explosive - I like the term you used which is apt in my case 'episodic violence'.   In fact I have copied and pasted your entire paragraph here if you don't mind as it expresses better than I could the dynamics of that sort of family structure:-

 

"Their m.o. was keeping everything completely under wraps, not expressing vulnerabilities, sensitivities, or openly grappling with emotional trauma. Barring episodic violence, which happened and then "unhappened" without further acknowledgment, there was no official space for anything being wrong or out of the ordinary."

 

That's it....

 

To make it bearable , I engaged in big time fantasy and a lot of grandiosity - I am trying to forgive myself for that now - the grandiosity bit.   I think I have a lot of what Jung called 'the eternal child' in me though.  I was average in most respects -if I had been loved I would have been cool with being average but I thought that in order to get self worth I had to be better than average.  It did work a bit in that I got a bit of conditional approval from one parent but once things went south I just became an embarrassment. 

 

 The question that always goes on in my mind about lack of parental love and support no matter what happened is always  'Why?'  'Why can't they?'  'Why did they not?'  'If I do 'x'' will that make them love me?' 'If I do 'y' will that make them sit up?'  And I had to protect myself against family members too if I was in something or doing something because they would be cutting or dismissive and it happened so regularly as to be unremarkable except that it hurt. 

 

Anyhow I know Ariel that you posted largely an exposition of your own family dynamics that you wrote were 'not your favourite topic'.  I know there are a plethora of stories here and not everyone on this site has bad family dynamics.   I write to share some small similarities with perhaps your own story that you have alluded to in your own post. 

 

I also want to write about the reality of why some people are pushed into the psychiatric system in the first place - to document it.   I think that is important given the terrible injury that has been done to so many people over the world who are largely powerless.   

 

I think the drugging of children, particularly children in care to keep them quiet irrespective of the damage that is being done to their physical and mental health is particularly ugly and is largely done for profit and to keep them quiet no matter what the cost. 

 

Is that directly related to my own situation?  At the most it is very tangental.  But I was young enough - very early 20's and had very little agency - had never been allowed to make any of my own decisions; anything I had expressed an interest in doing as a child or adolescent was vetoed. 

 

And crucially my drugging and labelling allowed the rest of them to isolate me as 'the problem' and cast themselves as victims of someone who was 'difficult' and 'ill' which  some of them did publicly as well as privately unfortunately - that made employment for me even harder.  At no stage did any of them ever take responsibility for the part they had played.  They refused the family therapy that was offered early on.  The psychiatrists and psychologists in whose hands I was put largely collaborated in that.  I was sent to a Jungian analyst who made vague asides - once - he lost his cool when he heard they have left me alone in the house when I was very fragile for a few days and said loudly 'what!'  That was the closest I got to validation in those 5 years.  I actually thought that I merited the treatment and had convinced myself that I had a normal and loving upbringing.  The level of fantasy required to sustain that was partly my undoing.

 

So what I am trying to say in a very long winded way as usual is that the damage was there before I went into the system but my goodness the damage afterwards -and it gave them a get out of jail card for everything.  They had a ready made scapegoat and they dined out on that for years.

 

I think the evidence that psychiatry is currently largely an inhumane, fraudulent,  ineffective profession that causes iatrogenic damage is obvious.   

 

Every now and then you might meet someone working in that system who perhaps has some kindness and even a bit of wisdom but they're rare. 

 

What is shocking is the dearth of psychiatrists that are prepared to go public about inadequacies of their profession though and dissent - I found one the other evening - Daniel Carlat MD.  He's not even very radical; he seems to believe in some drugs and the DSM but he had enough of a moral code to realise his wooing  and payment by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals to promote drugs with poor evidence and fraudulent RCT's was instinctively wrong and unethical and wrote about it.  That was back in good old 2012 though.

  https://www.danielcarlat.com/dcarlat-qa.htm

 

Apart from the dissenting psychiatrists that stand out and act as a group - a tiny little number mainly in the UK - there's virtually no one.  Peter Breggin - that great old stalwart - whose book 'Toxic Psychiatry' was instrumental in my making the decision to break with psychiatry in my 20's is getting on.   I don't see any psychiatrist replacing him - in the US at least since Kelly Rowland joined the ranks of the anti vaxxers.

 

Some people just have a normal emotional reaction to a life stressors like the loss of a parent, or a difficult job and have been unlucky enough to attend their doctor about it and get shoved on a drug without being able to make an informed consent because their doctor has a clue.

 

But a lot of the life stories on here are of people who have suffered neglect or cruelty and as Dr John Read the psychologist said bad things happen and they f*** you up.  

 

It depends on everyone's biochemistry I suppose - some are tougher than others.  My siblings have also had bouts of 'mental illness', some of which were serious but they were able to keep going.  I think that part of the reason for this was that they had the example of me for what happened if you didn't keep going.  

 

In regards to your labels I started off after two years treatment and suicidal depression after being on Paxil for nine months with the label schizo affective manic depressive disorder;  then I was switched to a supposedly really good psychiatrist at the top of the pecking order; after two months in hospital I was re diagnosed as borderline; then after the old psychotic episode while on the highest daily out patient dose of Dothiepin for one year it was back to manic depressive disorder which at this stage had been re christened 'bipolar disorder'. 

 

Then I ran away quietly for a decade and a half and basically conformed like mad (another bad pun).   Did any of the geniuses I saw in those years ever genuinely ask me what my story bar the bare geographical details of what had led me to this point of distress ? ?   Not a one...haha.

 

This is not a cry for help.   I focus today now on spending time in nature and with my cats and on keeping my emotional state level while confronting reality.  I focus on doing when I can some Tai Chi and stretching and sometimes just look at a view and do nothing and listen to the wind in the trees - where i live currently is exceptionally beautiful.   

 

But I do write my story though on here to bear witness to being in that horrible place - that protracted slaughter house of the human soul that is the psychiatric system.  

 

I wish you continued healing and hope for the suffering inflicted on you.  You unlike me I think can see things in the round, in a universal way and you have a capacity for understanding and forgiveness which I do not.  Understanding if not forgiveness which is a big ask is  is I think crucial.  At least I am learning finally how not to be reactive - to think before I speak and finally if I cannot do that  - to not speak at all.  That is progress for me big time.

 

Oaktree 🌸