Oaktree1: tapering from Remeron while dealing with Cymbalta withdrawal

[Mirtazapine20mg]

1 hour ago, Oaktree1 said:

I focus today now on spending time in nature and with my cats and on keeping my emotional state level while confronting reality.  I focus on doing when I can some Tai Chi and stretching and sometimes just look at a view and do nothing and listen to the wind in the trees - where i live currently is exceptionally beautiful.   

 

I am pretty sure if Hemmingway lived today and tried to withdraw from Mirtazapine and therefore became a SA-member he would write posts like you do. Thank you. 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:30 PM, Oaktree1 said:

I get very angry that so many of the stories here are from people whose only 'sin' was to be a bit more sensitive than others or those who were  abused or traumatised in childhood or adolescence and ended up pathologised when they broke down as a result.  

 

But then we have Lady Gaga talking about loving Olanzapine. 

LOL @Oaktree1. That is brilliant. 

[Greatful]

@Oaktree1

You write so beautifully....I think you sell yourself short--you claim you can't connect to other people--You are doing just that-connecting to others♥️

there is a beautiful/caring person inside you Oaktree.. You have suffer childhood trauma and even with that you have come out a warm-sensitive person.

You are very much appreciated by me and I think I can speak for others feeling the same way🤗

 

 Daniel Carlat MD. and all other doctors that prescribe these drugs   Need to watch this 

The Origins of the DSM by Dr James Davis https://youtu.be/6JPgpasgueQ

 

I just had a birthday too May 22😬 turned 59--I sure hope when I turn 60 ugh that I will be in a better place emotional - and be able to enjoy life😊

 

How is the tapering going?  I hope they are going well- as well as we can expect.  Up and down--but we all have each other to lean on as we journey to a drug free life...We are not alone-♥️

 

 

[Mirtazapine20mg]

9 minutes ago, Greatful said:

You write so beautifully....I think you sell yourself short--you claim you can't connect to other people--You are doing just that-connecting to others♥️

I second that. I have pretty much spend the whole day reading your posts @Oaktree1. You have restored my fighting spirit and it was pretty much gone this morning. BTW, don't misunderstand my LOL earlier. The first things in the quote I of course don't find the least funny. But your dry take down of "I'm a celeb, watch me being brave about taking antidepressants..." on the other hand... 👌

[Ariel]

Majestic @Oaktree1

Thank you for your beautiful post. It feels like receiving a real, old-fashioned letter. (Few things better in life than getting a letter in the mail.)

I am rather foggy-minded these past couple of days but look forward to revisiting your words when the haze clears.

 

20 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

I focus today now on spending time in nature and with my cats and on keeping my emotional state level while confronting reality.  I focus on doing when I can some Tai Chi and stretching and sometimes just look at a view and do nothing and listen to the wind in the trees - where i live currently is exceptionally beautiful.   

 

This is in and of itself remarkable, Oaktree. Countless people out in the world, whether or not they have ever had anything to do with doctors or drugs or psychiatry, would be hard-pressed to demonstrate such a constructive, wholesome, wise approach to living (even though they desperately need it). When I read, "keeping my emotional state level while confronting reality," my goodness, that's a (formulation for a) life's work right there. Perhaps I project, but I perceive you heeding a vocation to being, which requires extraordinary courage and honesty (qualities reflected in abundance in your outstanding writing). 

 

I am happy to hear you that you currently live somewhere exceptionally beautiful. Whenever I have found myself living in particularly exquisite natural surroundings I have felt profoundly nourished by nature. The nutritive, restorative effect of a scenic location cannot be overstated.

 

Doing nothing is one of my favorite activities! 

 

The company of cats is delightful and healing. Tell me about them, sometime, if you wish? I never tire of such tales (your puns are appreciated). 

 

The cat with whom I most recently lived died a couple of years ago. I have been hesitant to adopt anew. Withdrawal has made it challenging to care for myself, let alone another creature. Lately I have been warming up to the idea, which I take to be a sign of improvement. 

 

Apologies for the incomplete nature of my reply to your magnificent, full-bodied opus. Fuzzy head calls the shots today, it seems. I can assure you, in/from my heart I extend comprehensive emotional, interpersonal, psychospiritual reciprocity despite an inability to explicitly verbally articulate or overtly perform it here. 

 

Thank you for your post, it has really lifted my spirits and brought me joy. I realize you are recounting hard things and painful experiences and I do not mean to make light of them, certainly it brings me no pleasure to think of your suffering. I am sorry for all that you have been through. I only mean that when I read your words I (imagine that I) can feel you, your spirit, your will, your life force beaming through, and the ferocity and lucidity and undeniability of your sheer being-ness here on earth moves me to no end. I can relate to so much of what you write, more than I am currently able to grasp or express in turn. Your writing inspires me and helps me feel less alone. 

 

With love and gratitude,

Peace and healing,

A. 

 

[Oaktree1]

21 hours ago, Greatful said:

I just had a birthday too May 22😬 turned 59--I sure hope when I turn 60 ugh that I will be in a better place emotional - and be able to enjoy life😊

Hi @Greatful

 

Belated birthday wishes for you and I sincerely hope that you will be in a much better place this time next year although despite the 'bump's' that I unfortunately mentioned in your thread I think there are small improvements with your WD.  

 

Thanks so much for your sentiments - they mean a lot.

 

Oaktree 🌸

[Oaktree1]

21 hours ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

second that. I have pretty much spend the whole day reading your posts @Oaktree1. You have restored my fighting spirit and it was pretty much gone this morning. BTW, don't misunderstand my LOL earlier.

Hi Mirtazapine20mg,

 

Thanks so much for writing on my thread and I am glad I was able to lift your spirits a little bit and for your kind words. Hemingway I have never read funnily enough as I was a told that he 'was man's writer'.  Another relative I know was a Hemingway addict at one time.  I never did read him but I am chuffed at your remark.  One thing a lot of us  here have in common with Hemingway though apart from suffering from our  'mental health' is that he loved cats.  He had lots of them at his house in Florida  (you probably already know this) - he used to call them purr factories apparently.  I see you also have a beloved cat. 

 

I can also relate to the funny rashes you are getting, the Mirt induced rages (happens to me on day 3 of nearly every cut and it's horrible); and the problems with tomatoes.  I am very fond of tomatoes too but can now only approach them with extreme trepidation - that is one small sunstream one every now and then.  For some reason my rashes and skin irritation have improved in the last two months - I don't know why that is but I'll enjoy it while it lasts.  I think you are right to switch to the brass monkey slide taper - I am using a version of that - it's less severe than the bigger drops.  

 

Thanks again for posting and oh I don't misunderstand the lol re the earlier post - such a pity about Lady Gaga though- she would have been such a great role model if she had refused to go the drug road.

 

Oaktree1 🌸 

[Greatful]

@Oaktree1

1 hour ago, Oaktree1 said:

despite the 'bump's' that I unfortunately mentioned in your thread I think there are small improvements with your WD.  

I hope you know I was joking about this🙃....

I think of you and hope that you can one day get out on your own.

 

 

 

 

 

[Oaktree1]

On 5/31/2022 at 10:36 AM, Ariel said:

Apologies for the incomplete nature of my reply to your magnificent, full-bodied opus. Fuzzy head calls the shots today, it seems. I can assure you, in/from my heart I extend comprehensive emotional, interpersonal, psychospiritual reciprocity despite an inability to explicitly verbally articulate or overtly perform it here. 

Ariel,

 

I don't think anyone could accuse you of inarticulacy and thank you for your beautifully worded reply.  You manage to reach out every single day and find a perfected worded and sympathetic response to so many members on this site.   I re-write and re-write and it takes me so much time to get my thoughts in order - fuzziness I know about.  

On 5/31/2022 at 10:36 AM, Ariel said:

When I read, "keeping my emotional state level while confronting reality," my goodness, that's a (formulation for a) life's work right there.

Keeping my emotional state level is life's work indeed in the world we are mainly living in today.  In my own country I think it was better in some respects in the old days -  women particularly could cry; they could be as emotionally labile as they wanted to; it was customary in many places of the country to keen (cry loudly) at funeral wakes.  There was an acceptance that life was hard and that grief was very much part of it.   

 

Where I live that's not actually that far back.  Women were allowed to get old and odd too unless they were standing in the way of an inheritance.  You could get away with very bad grooming.  There were several women round my way who did just that.   They were single women of property and they aged disgracefully after their own fashion and were allowed to do so.  There was a freedom in that.

 

But today it's very different - suffer more than two weeks after a bereavement and you've got grief disorder.  I have to be as level headed as I can be to keep myself out of the hospital.  I met with my primary care doctor today and expressed my fears.  She told me that  the thing I would have to watch out for is being accused of paranoia. That could stick very easily. 

On 5/31/2022 at 10:36 AM, Ariel said:

The cat with whom I most recently lived died a couple of years ago. I have been hesitant to adopt anew. Withdrawal has made it challenging to care for myself, let alone another creature. Lately I have been warming up to the idea, which I take to be a sign of improvement. 

I am sorry to hear of the loss of your cat and the grief that must have come with it.  I am dreading losing my cats.  I can appreciate how challenging it is to care for yourself without adding in a cat.  I am lucky enough in that the cats currently have a safe place in which to live outside.  They are not round the house all the time demanding attention which if you are under the weather can be exhausting.  It is a discipline in a way to have to feed and water them - even if I am feeling awful I know that they depend on me for food. 

 

Being feral though trying to trap them for vet visits is emotionally fraught for both me and the cats and has been largely unsuccessful in the last three months.  Today I bought them some lambs liver in an effort to lure in the ginger fellow but he knew even before I had put on my gloves (to shut the carrier door) that something was afoot and would not enter the cat carrier - he is a lot smarter than many humans.   He has a rattle in his chest and is not as keen to play as he once was so I know he has to go in.  His last visit though where he was kept in overnight really disturbed him so he's more suspicious.

 

I feel less alone also from your response and from reading your thread and others ...so I thank you also.

 

Today I did some myofascial stretching and release with my rubber massage balls and some gardening - I try to get out in nature every day now.

 

I look forward to reading some of your other posts on other threads when I can....there is no need to pressure yourself to reply to mine.  It can be tiring to have to reply again and again... particularly if one is feeling a bit fuzzy.

 

Oaktree 🌸.  

 

 

 

[Oaktree1]

On 5/12/2022 at 3:47 PM, arbor said:

Our hearts fester under the cloak of silence.  To feel snubbed by our families, let alone our societies takes the breath for words right out of my lungs.  I'm so glad you're not silenced.  I'd like to hold with you the burden of your despair, so that you don't have to be further hurt by the toll.  What I've been sensing from my ongoing experience of w/d is that 2 things are going on in my anger.  First, there's the justified aspect, and second, the inferno-like catastrophe of my brain being actively and constantly tortured.  The second has a life of its own.  I'm so grateful that people on this forum know what that's like.  The second also makes it nearly impossible for me to communicate with tact.

@arbor

 

I have read over again this beautiful piece which expresses exactly how I have felt for the past few days.  I should have commented more at the time....I was too filled with having to get my own stuff out and on the page....I am only not silenced here on these pages...otherwise I keep my counsel and say nothing and there is nobody to say anything to out loud except myself and the one hour a week with a therapist.  When I speak with her I am confronted in full with my precarious position both within the 'family' and with the wider world.   That is it... homelessness and poverty don't just wait in the wings - they are nearly on the stage now.  One of the psychiatrists appeared during the weekend and I had to beat a quick exit to avoid observation.

 

No need to reply but I wanted to say that I appreciated what you wrote - I should have written more at the time.   It takes me a long time to gather my thoughts and frame my words.  I do have difficulty with cognitive empathy for others. 

 

You write on another page that  you are "up & down, but tentatively (maybe, and somewhat perhaps) better."    I am keeping my fingers crossed for your metaphorically and have your continual improvement in my thoughts.

 

Oaktree🌸

 

 

[arbor]

Thank you @Oaktree1 for taking the time and effort to write.  I understand how hard it is sometimes.  I've been having a discouraging day (no sleep again--), so to receive your message has helped a lot. 

I'm concerned that you are under so much stress and could be facing greater stress.  Please take care of yourself!

I send you healing wishes, safety, and peace, dear Oaktree,

Arbor

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Thank you @Oaktree1. You made my day :-).

[Ariel]

On 6/1/2022 at 11:17 PM, Oaktree1 said:

Women were allowed to get old and odd too unless they were standing in the way of an inheritance.  You could get away with very bad grooming.  There were several women round my way who did just that.   They were single women of property and they aged disgracefully after their own fashion and were allowed to do so.  There was a freedom in that.

 

@Oaktree1 I love this so much. 

I keep returning to enjoy it. 

Ever since WD began I have difficulty seeing myself in the mirror (in every sense). 

The past week when monkey mind is badgering (!) me about my decrepitude, I tell it: I am aging disgracefully! 

And it feels like an anthem of power and protest. 

Thank you <3

 

[Oaktree1]

On 6/10/2022 at 7:19 PM, Ariel said:

I keep returning to enjoy it. 

Ever since WD began I have difficulty seeing myself in the mirror (in every sense). 

The past week when monkey mind is badgering (!) me about my decrepitude, I tell it: I am aging disgracefully! 

And it feels like an anthem of power and protest. 

Thanks @Ariel

 

I am reminded about what another one of the psychiatric guild wrote in her notes about me two years ago from a video meeting - 'limited self care' - I was not wearing any make up and had my hair tied back but was wearing a rather expensive plaid jacket for the 'occasion'.  The psychiatrist herself had a mouth full of expensively capped dental wear and peroxided hair - I have met some shockers in my time but this was a truly dreadful creature - arrogant, devoid of any compassion and rude.  She spoke in that strangulated drawl that is popular amongst the privately educated Dublin elite. 

 

I was so thankful when I was kicked out of this private facility for having the temerity to ask for a change of team that I met some compassionate  clinicians subsequently on the public system.  But when I think of those older women allowing their 'self care' to go to pot I think of that.  Maybe it's the ASD in me (if that exists) but I hate the feel of make up and jewelry and I like messy shaggy hair.  If I have to interact with someone who has  straight ironed hair I can feel the hackles on my back rise literally.

 

So thank you for your lovely comment - decrepitude comes to us all but you're a bit young yet to be talking about it.  I know what it's like though having to look in the mirror - I only do it once a day and do it from the side - much easier that way.   Monkey mind is running riot over me the past few days and I am odder than ever as contracted COVID last Saturday from someone else in the house and am now housebound.  I just let monkey go....Thankfully I had all my boosters so it's not too bad and hopefully won't get worse.  Am really enjoying reading some of your posts as a mod.  Well signing off now this virus is tiring.

 

Oaktree

[Ariel]

Dear favorite  @Oaktree1

I'm so sorry you've come down with COVID! 

Wishing you a mild case and swift full recovery. 

 

2 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

am now housebound.  I just let monkey go....

 

I think you meant something else by this but the way I first read it made me giggle. Like, while you're housebound you just let the monkey go do your bidding instead. I imagine the monkey begrudgingly going out to the shops with a basket hung over their monkey arm. May the monkey pamper you on your sickbed! 

 

2 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

Monkey mind is running riot over me the past few days

 

And you just let monkey go... Gotcha. 

Yeah sometimes that's just how it is. I feel for you, though. It can be tired, and with a virus on top. Rest well and take gentle care of yourself please. You are precious <3

 

2 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

I am reminded about what another one of the psychiatric guild wrote in her notes about me two years ago from a video meeting - 'limited self care' - I was not wearing any make up and had my hair tied back but was wearing a rather expensive plaid jacket for the 'occasion'.  The psychiatrist herself had a mouth full of expensively capped dental wear and peroxided hair - I have met some shockers in my time but this was a truly dreadful creature - arrogant, devoid of any compassion and rude.  She spoke in that strangulated drawl that is popular amongst the privately educated Dublin elite. 

 

You've outdone yourself, Oaktree. I love this so much. Btw I'm a big fan of plaid, I bet you looked fabulous! What do they know from chic? 

 

2 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

I hate the feel of make up and jewelry and I like messy shaggy hair.

 

Hear hear! Same. Let's move in together and terrorize the neighborhood in flagrant plaid decay (along with our coven of cats, of course). 

 

Thank you so much for this marvelous missive, you made me laugh! 

Sending very best wishes for healing on all levels, get well soon <3

A. 

 

 

[Ariel]

Dear @Oaktree1

 

Sending you a multitude of appreciative thoughts this evening. Feeling very grateful for your unique presence in the world and your wonderful posts here, there, and everywhere. I love reading you. 

Thank you so much for what you share and the staunch support you offer via your beautiful prose. I treasure your writing and the fierce honesty, generosity, heart you bring to this community.

You're marvelous <3

 

How are you feeling? I hope your COVID symptoms are resolving and you are making a thorough recovery. 

Get well soon, wishing you peace, healing, relief, 

A.  

[JanCarol]

Hey Oaktree - 

 

Just wanted to say hi.

 

I've been reading your thread, even if I haven't posted.

 

Your eloquence & descriptions of your conditions tell me - you are gonna be okay from withdrawal.  (the trauma and other problems, are what they are - but you have the tools to help you with those, too.)

 

I think of you - every time I can't walk (but I can do tai chi).

 

On my recovery page, I've posted a simple tai chi warmup you might like.

Be well, and take care,

I hope you see the sun today!

JC

[Oaktree1]

Thanks @JanCarol

 

Really appreciate you posting.  Any time I don't hear back from someone I automatically think I have done something to offend them or piss them off.  Glad to hear that I hopefully did not.  

 

I actually saw your warm up a few days ago and gave it a 'like'.  It was great to actually see you 'in person'.  I had a small idea of what I thought you looked like and in the Paul Lam videos I wondered if you were among one of the teachers.  There was an American  woman but she was from South Carolina.  I actually knew most of  the exercises you showed as up until I got Covid I had been doing the warm ups from Paul Lam every few days.  I am floored with this Covid - in the last 4 days I have practically no sense of taste or smell at all and very tired, even more aches than I normally have.

 

I have to be honest though I don't write about it much - the first thing in my mind every day is SI once I come to wakefulness; but it makes me feel better once I submit to my fate - then I relax.   

 

A huge dog has been dumped where I live by one of my siblings for two weeks with a days notice while this person and their family went off on an extended foreign holiday.  One of my parents also got COVID and was very sick with it; they are in their 80's so I had to look after them and myself as there was no one else in the house.   The dog has to  be kept separate from my cats.  

 

This sibling made no contact during the pandemic other than a 5 minute call to one of my parents every six weeks or so and then tried to dump his large dog last year before he went on annual leave last year but I put my foot down.  One of my cats is elderly and arthritic and I did not want a large dog with a huge set of teeth potentially having contact with an elderly cat who could not get away .  He made no contact two weeks ago when informed of one of the parent's covid diagnosis either until he could not get a place for his dog in a kennel as they are all booked out because he left it too late.   When he couldn't find a place for his dog he was on the phone immediately asking the elderly parent who still had COVID to take a large strapping dog for 2 weeks.  It works with my parents as he was the favoured child. 

 

I don't have contact with this sibling anymore as he has been abusive to me over the years and I am frightened of him.   I was not told that this dog was coming - just informed after the fact.  This sort of behaviour works well for him and has been working for years.  That's the sort of thing that happens when you have little agency, don't have financial independence and don't have a place of your own and the only thing that one can do is say nothing but get very tough.  I said to the parent that the dog is their responsibility and I am not doing anything for it.   I was also told after the fact that there  was a separate place for the dog to go to but the parent has taken the dog anyway.

 

The milk of human kindness is gone dry in my book.  I cared for this parent while they went through Covid while sick with it myself and yet I didn't even merit the respect of being informed about a dog arriving.  I am angry over it and I feel angry that after all this time I am still angry - you would think that I would have learnt that it will always be this way by this time.   The parent would have expected me to row in and walk and look after it because I've always done that in the past - not this time - I have finally learnt my lesson.  With some people you just have to pull up the drawbridge.

 

  The first night the dog was here the water was dry in his bowl - normally I would have filed it - this time I went in and said 'your dog needs water'.  It will be a lesson for this parent in what it is really like to look after a dog - feed it, walk it, take it to the vet, talk to it and it's full time -  not just when you feel like it.   I had a dog for seven years so I know all about it.  I would never have one again - I still miss the dog that died and he died 15 years ago.   Five years ago - I would have caved in - not now. 

 

Luckily the dog though large with a huge set of teeth appears very gentle and I don't think he would go for the cats.  He looks at them wistfully through the side door with his huge brown eyes.  He's a beautiful dog and normally if he didn't belong to this sibling I would communicate with him.  As it is though the way I feel about this sibling I just keep my distance.  Obviously if the parent becomes unable to care for him I will take over as he's only a innocent animal but until then - it's going to be a learning experience for the parent in what it is really like to look after an animal.

 

Anyway I am with you in the pain stakes presently - I am using the rubber balls like mad on my upper back and shoulders.  One thing I have found with my neck which you reported issues with - I slept without a pillow last night and for once my neck was looser today - the past four days I wasn't able to move it - today I can move it freely   the relief...I remember a brilliant physio said it to my mother once when she was having neck issues - she flat out told her not to use a pillow and if she had to use something to roll up a hand towel and put it under her neck.

 

Also since Covid I am sleeping really well - I have probably jinxed it now by writing it - I haven't made any further reductions since Covid and had slowed up before with the taper.  I will taper further when I am over this virus but it definitely helps to sometimes hold the taper to allow the symptoms to subside.  I haven't reduced since the 23rd May and even at that I was doing a micro taper or 1.5% every 2 weeks.

 

Thanks again for posting.  I hope to get back to Tai Chi today.  I'll be honest with you JanCarol though - I get bored very easily and find it hard to concentrate - that's my biggest problem presently.  I have a trash news addiction - I have to work on that = the concentration and the boredom.

 

Oaktree

[Mirtazapine20mg]

32 minutes ago, Oaktree1 said:

Any time I don't hear back from someone I automatically think I have done something to offend them or piss them off. 

That I have too @Oaktree1. Sometimes I think this sensitivity is the root cause of it all: The risk of sociality is too high, and therefore isolation is much easier. Of course after some time I got weird. And after that a little weirder. And after that sociality was doom before initiation. Some days, when I experience just a little succesfull sociality, my whole life view changes. For example yesterday, even though it was computer mediated, it helped to see you and @Ariel's posts together, exchanging views and experiences. There was a cosiness to it, that I miss so, so much in everyday life. So to get well, I need magnesium, fish oil capsules, and succesfull sociality. Btw, thanks, thanks, THANKS for all your writing. 

[Oaktree1]

19 hours ago, Ariel said:

Sending you a multitude of appreciative thoughts this evening. Feeling very grateful for your unique presence in the world and your wonderful posts here, there, and everywhere. I love reading you. 

Thank you so much for what you share and the staunch support you offer via your beautiful prose. I treasure your writing and the fierce honesty, generosity, heart you bring to this community.

Thanks @Ariel

 

I really appreciate you writing this post and thanks for your kind words.  I tend to be sharing a bit more here now.  There is just nothing for me to 'share' with anyone where I am currently, not in person anyway.  

 

The thing is though - it's good that I am finally realising the limitations of people I am connected through legally.  I focus on being calm and polite within limits.  I try and observe myself.  And I disclose less and less to them other than generalities and practicalities. 

 

What that means is that I more or less keep to myself and talk fulsomely  my cats.  Anyone witnessing me talking to my cats would say 'yes there's a mad cat woman' and yes they're right.  I get more love and affection and yes interest from my cats than most people.  Horrible Pope Gregory the IX said the devil came in the form of a black cat and  ushered in a long era of cat torture as I hate the Catholic Church and everything associated with it that's yet another reason to love them.  I think older single women have always had a special bond with cats also.  My ginger fellow has a huge number of sounds to communicate with me every day; he adds a new sound every few months or so - he listens to every thing I say - he is the more extraordinary cat I have ever met.  Nearly every night he accompanies me on a long walk around the grounds of the house - it is quite large so there are a lot of walks and trees.  It is a nice place for a cat to hang out and no danger of being hit by a car.

 

Well must go and do some awful housework now.

I hope you have some good moments today Ariel

Oaktree

[Ariel]

@Oaktree1

Sorry to read you are still struggling through covid. Glad you're able to milk it for some sleep, but still, wish you had good sleep without covid!

 

I hear you about the dog and the family situation. I can relate to the need to assert and maintain boundaries, even when the principle sometimes seems to supersede common sense or what may come naturally to us by way of instincts and behavior (thinking about the empty water bowl; I can really empathize with that situation).

 

I wish there were a way to secretly sneak some snuggles without being seen by the Lesson-Receivers, so as not to overturn your paedagogical tactics. I'm giggling to myself a bit imagining clandestine cuddle sessions with dog during the night, then acting like you two don't know each other during the day when eyes are upon you. Apologies for projecting my own nighttime loneliness onto you and the resident canine. 

 

Lovely to read about your cats and how marvelous to have a walking companion in the form of your ginger. Melts my heart to think about. 

Recently I have been thinking about adopting again but also feeling some resistance. I don't know that I can authentically commit to life in that way, it feels like a stretch. Then again I imagine that once the cat/s are here the reality of their presence may eradicate most of my WD anguish; then again maybe not, as I went through some atrocious WD thoughts and feelings about the cat who lived with me a few years back, and the whole thing was a gut-wrenching experience. I'm torn. For sure I miss feline company, no doubt about that. 

 

Sorry, Oaktree, it's been a melancholy day. Don't mean to burden you with my puny sorrows (borrowing that from the title of a book, "All My Puny Sorrows", by an author I like, Miriam Toews). Thank you for your post. 

 

Get well soon, goodnight <3

[Oaktree1]

10 hours ago, Mirtazapine20mg said:

Sometimes I think this sensitivity is the root cause of it all: The risk of sociality is too high, and therefore isolation is much easier. Of course after some time I got weird. And after that a little weirder.

Hi Mirtazpine20mg,

 

'Of course after some time i got weird' - you put it so well ! I am very weird now also and getting weirder by the day.  When I used to go out to an exercise class once a nice girl said to me in the 'spinning' class that it was good to get out.  She meant it kindly as I now give off 'isolated' vibes and I think have done so for some time.  I used to attend a peer support group for abuse victims and once this very well meaning but too forthright woman said to me that she was going to organise a meal out and invited me because she didn't 'think I got out much'.  It was hilarious actually but people are not stupid even the tactless and well meaning ones.  But now after two years of Covid and enforced isolation anyway with cocooners well it's very hard to shake the weirdness.  

 

I do think that sensitive people are living in the wrong age.  I don't know how I feel about being diagnosed as autistic but it's basically a medical term as far as I can see for a highly sensitive person.  When I first got the label , I read quite a bit about it and I read that autistic people would probably have done quite well in the middle ages.  I would have been quite happy in a nunnery I think for example.  I would have liked the routine, doing simple and repetitive tasks, the silence, the enforced celibacy.  Although even then some nuns were not so good at obeying their order such that it became necessary to post sets of rules forbidding licentious behaviour between priests and nuns. 

 

It was a positive plus in the middle ages to be an introvert - someone who was humble and quiet.  Now it's pathologised.  Our culture only really values loud, bouncy extroverts. 

I used to love studying the middle ages when I did history even though I was bad at it - everyone had a place in it; it was a simple theocratic world.  The treated the mentally ill better than they do now - they were mostly cared for at home.

 

 I was told once by a clinical psychologist that my sensitivity was such that I must find navigating every day life impossible.  I think that someone can be sensitive but I also think that you can be further sensitised by repeated betrayals and cruelties such that at a certain point you disengage.  I wasn't always like I am now.  I used to have friends and employment.  I used to act  - haha -  I even went to drama school (quite a good one at that).   Now I wonder how I ever even stood on a stage.  It took me a few decades to get here.  I don't know if that was similar for you -  I suppose everyone's story is different.

 

Oaktree.

[JanCarol]

Hey Oaktree - 

23 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

Any time I don't hear back from someone I automatically think I have done something to offend them or piss them off.  Glad to hear that I hopefully did not.  

 

OH, but you know that's common in abuse survivors?  We've been told so often that it is always our fault when bad Things happen. 

ALL my friends who are survivors, feed on the constant reassurance that everything is okay, really, I'm not mad, it's my own hermitude, and no, there's nothing you've done (or really even could do) to break the bonds between us.  Can you tell I've said these words before?

Then I heard the dog story - heartbreaking.  The dog probably suffers the same abuse as you have, and the bond you would form could be very special.

But - and this is what made me proud - 

 

(aside:  another reason I don't post, is I will think of a thing, and then read @Ariel and she just said it - like with this)

BOUNDARIES.  It is sooooo important for you to set boundaries now.  Maybe more important than the love of a brother-dog.  You haven't done this before, and you're starting to stand on your own two feet.

 

This is a HUGE sign of recovery.  When you say NO, and draw a line, and protect your self, your health, your mind & emotions.  When you start to differentiate between YOU and THEM, and what is your stuff, and what is THEIR stuff?  Their problem.

A huge sign of recovery to say NMP.  Not.  My.  Problem.

And the flip side of that is learning:  I am okay, JanCarol - or whoever - isn't mad at me.  That's the harder one, but it starts with saying NO.  (geez, weren't we supposed to learn about that when we were 2?)

No I won't listen to you, and I will hang up the phone when you start in.
No I won't text you back.  (yes I will block you)
No I won't clean up your messes.
No, that's NMP.  

(that's how we learn what our problems are - first we have to figure out what they aren't)

I do have a kind of tool I use.  If I am talking to THAT person, whoever it is, I need to separate myself from them.  So I visualise a one-way mirror between me and THEM.  I can see out, and see clearly, but everything they say & do & act reflects back to them in the mirror.

You will start to see that they really are talking to a mirror.  You will see their own self loathing, their own insecurities & bluster, their own anger & fear.  And you will realise it is not yours.  NMP.

It's hard when you live in conditions with THEM.  But once you start to develop a core (Pilates has a point) strength, they don't affect you so much.  Not saying it's easy, oh no.  Geez, we started at 2, but - sometimes it takes a lifetime, maybe more.

 

That's how we learn what it is that we want.  By eliminating that which we don't want.  The Yogis call it "Nadi nadi nadi"  Not this, not this not this.  By whittling away you purify your personality and realise something closer to who you are.

Getting to "who you are" - heck, that's - well.  Again.  Lifetimes.

Oh heck, hubby calling.  Thank you for your writing, rest assured I listen with an open heart.  I hear you, even if I don't say anything.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

Edited June 23, 2022 by JanCarol
typo

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Hi @Oaktree1. I once had a girlfriend with Aspergers, and even though it was a short, clumsy relationship she was such a nice person and fiercely intelligent in a strange but productive way. She was an academic, and she always tried to be part of the mainstream academia. She wasn't very good at that. Once in a while she gave up and, always pressed for time, just wrote. When she did that, she was second to none, and her papers went through peer review like a knife through butter. Unfortunately she also became very ill, but she lives and she has a decent life today. And we still stay in touch. She teaches danish to refugees, and I think that is very nice.

 

I also think that autism as a diagnosis is product of our current form of life, and I think that is true for a lot of the diagnosis today. Earlier they would have been advantages (ADHD (look, a new path, maybe there is food there), depression (Idiots, we can't control rain by dancing, lets move to a lake), anxiety (yes, the bear looks cuddly, but I still don't like it), autism (there are 147 different mushrooms here, and that one you CANNOT eat (explained to the tribe member with ADHD). 

 

12 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

It was a positive plus in the middle ages to be an introvert - someone who was humble and quiet.  Now it's pathologised.  Our culture only really values loud, bouncy extroverts. 

 

We have to make introvertism a badge of honor. Introverts would of course never do that - we are not much for badges. But actually Oaktree: Writing to you now, and after reading what you wrote, I think we can make it work. If radical acceptance (why always 'radical'-something to signify depth and bravery?) is saying, "yes, I'm an introvert, and I like it very much, thank you, now go do something flashy and let me be by myself" I am all for radical acceptance. The funny thing is what we are doing here is not the least introvert: We are pouring our hearts out. I think introvertness often is just people occupying in the tails of a normal distribution, and if two tail people were to meet and break the ice they would talk and talk and bath in each others company. 

 

12 hours ago, Oaktree1 said:

  I used to attend a peer support group for abuse victims and once this very well meaning but too forthright woman said to me that she was going to organise a meal out and invited me because she didn't 'think I got out much'.  It was hilarious actually but people are not stupid even the tactless and well meaning ones. 

 

If the lady saying 'you didn't get out much' don't understand it could hurt pointing out isolation, I think it is safe to say she IS stupid. It is completely unnessary. Just invite and be kind. And to be honest, to spot loneliness doesn't call for a Nobel Prize either. When somebody is pointing my loneliness out to me, and some people do, it always hurts. When I get home I can upon reflection mostly wipe the sadness of. And sometimes I can even laugh. But it takes an effort. An effort the original comment under no circumstances deserve. 

 

The funny thing is, that today I really don't mind that I don't go out much. People I admire, my favorite authors and scientists and political activists are or were loners. I once had a secret Stephen Fry-fetich. I don't like his endorsement of psychotropics, but I do like his openness about his struggles, and his kindness and generally the way he carries himself. Fry has said numerous times that utterly hate parties. I do too. I would love to host big informal barbecues (low-histamine-barbacues) for the people I admire, sit crooked and talk straight and laugh and break our strict sleep schedule together. You know, being with the tribe. But to take part in formalized social gatherings where you recognize each others right to be there with phrases like "how was traffic" or "wonderful weather", and where people make speeches or sing party songs (in Denmark we have tradition for singing songs with homemade lyrics to wellknown melodies. It sounds cute but really isn't,) no thank you very much. I do attend and I am actually quite good at hiding how much I don't want to be there. 

 

But, as I said, I miss being with my tribe very much and the dream about some day be with them keeps me alive. Problem is of course, that my tribe has been colonized. The few members that survived lives scattered in corners of the colonial powers territory. And they drink or take psychotropics or illicit drugs and spend way too much time in front of computers. 

 

Btw Oaktree: When I studied, I went to Berlin when everybody else went to the English-speaking world. So I have written a lot in German, because German writing skills are in short supply, but that also mean I never really have written in English since highschool. I have written short messages and such, but not anything longer. So I write slow and make idiomatic and grammatical mistakes, and my active written vocabulary is not impressive (my passive vocabulary is just like everybody else's with an active internet connection). And sometimes my posts and the arguments in them will come across as bit messy. That is only because I concentrate on the language and the argument at the same time. I know that you steady eyes read through this messiness. Just to say that clumsiness is not sloppiness. 

[Oaktree1]

17 hours ago, Ariel said:

Recently I have been thinking about adopting again but also feeling some resistance. I don't know that I can authentically commit to life in that way, it feels like a stretch. Then again I imagine that once the cat/s are here the reality of their presence may eradicate most of my WD anguish; then again maybe not, as I went through some atrocious WD thoughts and feelings about the cat who lived with me a few years back, and the whole thing was a gut-wrenching experience. I'm torn. For sure I miss feline company, no doubt about that. 

 

Hi @Ariel

 

I hear you on that.  You see I am lucky enough at the moment in that my cats live outside so they are not on top of me the whole time.  If you live in an apartment ? that could be more claustrophobic if one is battling 'atrocious WD thoughts'.  Last week when I was coming down with Covid I lost my temper with my bicolour a few times; he is getting to the stage of  being very picky about food - I buy him this food and that food and he eats a bit and then comes to the window for more - after a few times going in and out of the kitchen and trying to prevent the ginger fellow from eating third portions (he would eat for forever) - I am afraid I lost my temper and chased him from the window a few times.  I am ashamed of that....when something like that happens I say 'thank goodness I didn't have children'.  I know all about those awful thoughts and feelings - I wouldn't actually admit some of my angry thoughts to anyone even a therapist.  So I suppose it's what you feel up to yourself.

 

Vis a vis the dog - yes - it seems a bit silly - paedagogical tactics (haha) aside.  But the thing is that I know from hard experience that if I give so much as one inch,  this person will drop everything and I'll be left minding the animal.  I like dogs and cats but I am very tired of being used by my family of origin and I've been used for years - as a carer for one of my parents while one of the siblings did nothing in the way of contact or support or help and the other lived abroad and helped out for the two months in fairness when they were in the country but otherwise mainly stayed in contact with one parent and not me - this sibling just regards me also as a burden and doesn't care for me much either but is not abusive - just disengaged.  Their main concern over the years particularly in my 20's and 30's was that I not embarrass them publicly in front of their friends so I don't really engage with them now anymore and they are happy with that.  The just want a distant relationship and I accept that.

 

The same person who has now decided to 'take the dog for two weeks' without asking me  how I felt about it did nothing to help care or support his sick spouse over the years.  The sibling who owns the dog has been particularly cruel - when my parent had the first of her health set backs I rang this sibling to tell them what happened and the response I got on the phone was 'I don' give a f***'.  It's been like that for 30 years - not coming to see her when she was ill, not phoning to ask how she was or how I was coping and I've had enough of it now.  The last few years the way I was treated particularly during the pandemic was really the tail end of the last straw.  There was no contact from this person at all bar a box ticking phone call once every four to six weeks for the first 18 months of the pandemic.  Both parents would ring this sibling or email him and he would not reply.  I was on my own in the house with both of them during extended lockdowns.  He and his family did not call in to see his parents once during that period and they used my parents holiday home two summers in a row at a time when the lockdown was lifted and never called in once to see how either parent was even though it's just an hour away.

 

Anyway I had my time with the dog today and that's the end of it as this person left him in the house.  I brought the dog for a walk in the fields and lo and behold he disappeared...spent the afternoon trying to find him, walking and driving around the neighbourhood until the person turned up finally and located him...that's the end of my time with the dog. 

 

I hadn't had much to do with him and I suppose maybe that is why he ran away.  He was anxious at being separated from his owners and then his new caretaker went off and left him too and he's never been away from his home even in a kennel.  If he had disappeared for good my life would literally have not been worth living as this sibling has been violent in the past when i was in my 20's- he's the person who told me that it would be good if I was dead back  then and he has told me over the years that I am in his words 'lazy, selfish, and annoying' which somehow justifies him telling me even if I make small talk to someone else and he is in the vicinity to shout at me  'shut the f*** up'.  He would rubbish things that I said or be dismissive.  When I was constructively dismissed from the family business (a very hard one for people to get their heads around that) he told me that it was my fault and if he had been in there he would have made it work even though the other sibling had also been in there and had a similar experience.   

 

He would have a go at me over the years particularly when he was having issues with his spouse -  I just became a good punching bag.  One weekend he was in a particularly bad mood so I thought I would be safe if I said nothing so he had nothing to attack me for.  So he just attacked my cat instead and called him  'a feral f***'.  I stuck up for myself that time and said his remark was calculated to hurt and got the usual gas-lighting response that 'he was only joking'.   His spouse who is sociopathic - (has stolen multiple items and shows no remorse when confronted) and ruthless found that interlude very amusing.   I finally had enough on a 'family' amusing word that -  get together in 2020 - this sibling brought a present for everyone in the house except me and had a go at me when I tried sitting at a table with him for 10 minutes when I said that wasn't it interesting that Jon Kabatt Zinn the mindfulness expert was Jewish because his last name sounded Asian. 

 

If I was to say that the sky was blue and he wanted to have a go at me he would have found a way.  I just cut contact more or less after that day - I'd had enough - 30 years more or less of that sort of behaviour.  Christmases when he and his family went no contact for the entire Christmas week; another Christmas where he was being so nasty I organised to work on Christmas day - days when it was a significant birthday when he would go out of his way to be horrible.  It wasn't all bad - there were infrequent times when we could even have a conversation or he could be funny at a meal and I did try hard to bond with his kids and wife (telling myself that family were important as I was never going to have my own) but ultimately there were too many times when he was nasty.  I've nothing really to lose anymore - he was never supportive or helpful anyway with either parent so it's not like I'm holding out for a bit of help with them as I never got any anyway.

 

So I feel melancholy that nice word you used yesterday this evening as the dog is the same breed as the one I lost 15 years ago but he's still attached to someone I dislike and fear.  I feel a bit bad too as maybe if I had engaged more with him he would not have run away and I feel like a bad person as he's only a dog so will be more engaged the rest of the time he's here but no more walks - I can't risk him disappearing again.

 

Oaktree

[Ariel]

@Oaktree1

I am very sorry to read of the pain you (have) suffer(ed). 

I understand completely the need and necessity to cut ties. 

It sounds like you are clear on your boundaries and are doing what you have to do to protect yourself. 

 

Other people's behavior is a neverending source of astonishment to me, for better and for worse. 

Sometimes the best thing we can do for ourselves (and, presumably, everyone else involved) is take a break and remove ourselves from the situation. I'm not sure I have ever regretted extricating myself; however there are many times when I've overstayed with unfortunate, unpleasant consequences for all. 

It can feel very challenging, though, when we have made every effort towards another person and stood on our heads to communicate constructively and forgive and extend countless offers of connection, reconnection, rebuilding, etc. and to no avail. Interpersonal futility is a hard one to accept, especially in the harsh light of lack of reciprocity and rejection (perceived or not). 

 

I empathize completely with your decision to not engage with the dog for all of the reasons you've laid out. If I were in an analogous situation making a similar choice, I would probably find my heart longing to spend time with the dog while my head insisted on upholding my self-imposed rules. I understand why you chanced a walk, and I'm sorry you had the (di)stress of the dog running off. 

 

All this to say I don't think it's the least bit silly to set boundaries, I'm pretty sure it's the opposite of silly. 

As JanCarol says, we must learn to say "no", and it takes practice. 

About saying "no", a therapist once reframed this for me as saying "yes" to myself. This was profoundly helpful as it managed to get around some (possibly abuse-survivor-related?) blocks I had around the word "no" (I was actually explicitly taught in childhood not to say "no", and when I did say "no" was shamed/punished for it). Now I frequently remind myself, in boundary-setting situations and otherwise, this is not so much a "no" to someone/something else as it is a big fat "YES" to myself. I find this to be a very useful tool. 

 

Also, reading JanCarol and remembering the bit about saying "yes" to oneself, I thought about the dog's empty water bowl. It's such a perfect image. In your current situation you are choosing to fill your own cup, letting yourself drink. Right now that means you cannot fill the dog's water bowl, as that would detract significantly from your own supply. You are going through a rough time and need watering, hydrating, nurturing, nourishing, tender care; and with only yourself to rely on you must be strict, however strange it may feel. And in a way, it is healthy and good to feel that such either-or divisions are artificial and strange, because of course ideally we would all be on good terms living in harmony and your dog's water bowl is my water bowl, it's all one big water bowl, etc. etc. Your heart is intact and your instincts are true. If it weren't for the history of abuse, neglect, disrespect in the given human relationships, of course you'd water and care for the dog. At the same time, it is once again a testament to your health and lucidity that you recognize the reality of the situation and do what you must. You are doing the right thing prioritizing your own water bowl! 

 

Please don't feel bad or beat yourself up about any of it. You've got enough to concern yourself with without heaping more on. 

Animals accept their circumstances; it is harder for us to accept theirs, let alone ours. 

 

Love to you this evening, go gently. 

Wishing you improvements and relief from covid and cohort.

A.

 

P.S. 

Have you heard of or read Temple Grandin? Her work is interesting and moving. 

 

[Ariel]

8 hours ago, JanCarol said:

Hey Oaktree - 

On 6/22/2022 at 3:48 PM, Oaktree1 said:

Any time I don't hear back from someone I automatically think I have done something to offend them or piss them off.  Glad to hear that I hopefully did not.  

 

OH, but you know that's common in abuse survivors?  We've been told so often that it is always our fault when bad Things happen. 

ALL my friends who are survivors, feed on the constant reassurance that everything is okay, really, I'm not mad, it's my own hermitude, and no, there's nothing you've done (or really even could do) to break the bonds between us.

 

I can relate to this. I probably had it before to some extent but it's gotten massively amplified in WD. I think of it as neuro-paranoia, neuro-social anxiety, neuro-shame, etc. 

 

JanCarol, I didn't know that it's common in abuse survivors. Makes sense.

 

I imagine that feeling insecure/uncertain in interpersonal relationships/situations is common up to a point, but when one has been through complex trauma, the chaos and unpredictability of being exposed to other people's volatile, violent behavior takes its toll. One gets jumpy, it's the alerting system and overactive startle reflex. 

 

I've been working on/with this for forever, feels like. I try not to ask for reassurance unduly, try to practice trust. I've found it's just easier to be around people who are naturally giving/affirming. Even though I own my issues with social insecurity, the fact remains that people display a variety of social (attachment?) behaviors. Sometimes it's true that someone is actually being cold or dismissive or punishing or withholding, and I've learned a) not to take it personally; b) not to get more involved with that person (or disengage completely).

 

At some point I also realized about some of my "friends", Oh I think they just don't like me very much. It kind of makes me laugh, because it's so simple and true; doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I'm not sure they themselves realized it, either. It seems a lot of people spend time with people they don't like, maybe they're not aware, maybe they are aware and feel obligated. I don't know. As I've said before, Other People Are Baffling. (I'm baffling, too, but am stuck with myself for the time being; choose your battles, etc.) I have had to teach myself to be more proactive (without being paranoid) about spotting telltale signs of whether or not someone actually likes/cares about me in order to become more conscious of social dynamics, my own role and behavior, etc.

 

One of the things that's tricky for me is that I tend to really like and care about people, and I've come to realize that I may project my own interest and affection onto them and sort of feed it back to myself as a sign of connection. Not sure that makes sense, what I'm trying to say is I feel like I've often been sort of a super-connector or super-receptor, it's been very easy for me to feel connected to another and receptive to them. Intimacy often feels more natural to me than distance (not in a creepy way but possibly more than is standard bourgeois practice, certainly in the very homogenous, controlled, conventional, conformity culture where I live). Learning/practicing about understanding that my good feelings/gestures /intentions are not necessarily welcome, appreciated, reciprocated is something I'm still working on. I've been practicing holding back more, listening/waiting for invitations, monitoring myself as I go along to learn to contain myself and be mindful of my own boundaries as well as others'. 

 

(I'm feeling self-conscious, like maybe I'm inadvertently misrepresenting myself as someone who is unusually bad at boundaries. I don't think that's the case, per se (although I could be wrong and possibly the last to know it). I just mean that in my experience I often define/delineate boundaries differently than many others I know. Again and again I experience differences between what one person deems acceptable and what I deem acceptable. That doesn't necessarily mean one person has "better" boundaries than the other, just that they are different and more or less (in)compatible. The rest is a matter of communication and being able to express where one's boundaries lie. As long as one is able to respect another person's boundaries after they have been made clear, that's the crucial thing, I think. Given intercultural and interpersonal differences there's only so much we can determine by observation and perception alone, especially wanting to avoid the trap of making assumptions. Another reason to practice learning to formulate and verbally express needs/boundaries aloud, as well as inquiring into the other person's needs/boundaries. There is a place for asking questions and checking in (quite different from compulsively soliciting reassurance) to mutually reality-test and get to know one another. All too often such negotiations are skipped or not taken seriously, to the detriment of any given social interaction. Ideally all of this should be an ongoing process that brings people closer to themselves and each other.)

 

A lot of this is culturally determined, as well; my way of being is quite different to what is deemed socially acceptable where I live. I've lived in other places where the norms are such that there is more room for someone like me. I find that helpful to remember as well, it's not some sort of absolute wrongness, a lot of it is circumstantial and a matter of compatibility. 

 

I'm rambling. 

 

There is one thing I wanted to mention, Oaktree, about "Any time I don't hear back from someone I automatically think I have done something to offend them or piss them off," and social insecurity and shame. We've exchanged before on loneliness and isolation. Regardless of whether or not they are elective, helpful, desired, painful or whatever, social isolation does take its toll.

 

We have inherent biological psychosocial needs. A lot goes on on a subconscious level, I believe social isolation affects our physiological neurological functioning in various ways that we may or may not be aware of. Social isolation can actually feed into shame and social insecurity, giving rise to various thoughts and beliefs that create/confirm the premise of social isolation. (I'm getting tired, not sure I can articulate this properly.)

 

Our minds sometimes do this thing where they convince us of the truth of a situation by creating origin stories to explain/justify/rationalize circumstances. For example, extremely privileged people who develop a belief that they have earned their wealth and power and deserve it (this belief entails that others don't deserve the same); they come to actually believe they are better than everyone else; it's their mind playing tricks on them. Or, someone in adverse circumstances such as social isolation, let's say, comes to believe that they actually are not fit for society and deserve being functionally outcast and exiled (hence generating more shame and insecurity). These are not necessarily consciously held beliefs, it all has to do with internalizing things and becoming identified with a particular circumstance. Lots of heavy-duty brain circuitry involved, both subtle and not so subtle, a lot of it having to do with our extraordinary development as a social species. 

 

That's enough for now!

 

Goodnight, dear Oaktree. You need not reply unless you feel moved to do so, I won't take it personally.  

If I ever do something to offend you or piss you off, you'll have to be very blunt and direct with me about it! Haha

 

Wishing you peace, rest, recovery <3

 

[Oaktree1]

22 hours ago, JanCarol said:

Hey Oaktree - 

 

OH, but you know that's common in abuse survivors?  We've been told so often that it is always our fault when bad Things happen. 

ALL my friends who are survivors, feed on the constant reassurance that everything is okay, really, I'm not mad, it's my own hermitude, and no, there's nothing you've done (or really even could do) to break the bonds between us.  Can you tell I've said these words before?

Then I heard the dog story - heartbreaking.  The dog probably suffers the same abuse as you have, and the bond you would form could be very special.

But - and this is what made me proud - 

 

(aside:  another reason I don't post, is I will think of a thing, and then read @Ariel and she just said it - like with this)

BOUNDARIES.  It is sooooo important for you to set boundaries now.  Maybe more important than the love of a brother-dog.  You haven't done this before, and you're starting to stand on your own two feet.

 

This is a HUGE sign of recovery.  When you say NO, and draw a line, and protect your self, your health, your mind & emotions.  When you start to differentiate between YOU and THEM, and what is your stuff, and what is THEIR stuff?  Their problem.

A huge sign of recovery to say NMP.  Not.  My.  Problem.

And the flip side of that is learning:  I am okay, JanCarol - or whoever - isn't mad at me.  That's the harder one, but it starts with saying NO.  (geez, weren't we supposed to learn about that when we were 2?)

No I won't listen to you, and I will hang up the phone when you start in.
No I won't text you back.  (yes I will block you)
No I won't clean up your messes.
No, that's NMP.  

(that's how we learn what our problems are - first we have to figure out what they aren't)

I do have a kind of tool I use.  If I am talking to THAT person, whoever it is, I need to separate myself from them.  So I visualise a one-way mirror between me and THEM.  I can see out, and see clearly, but everything they say & do & act reflects back to them in the mirror.

You will start to see that they really are talking to a mirror.  You will see their own self loathing, their own insecurities & bluster, their own anger & fear.  And you will realise it is not yours.  NMP.

It's hard when you live in conditions with THEM.  But once you start to develop a core (Pilates has a point) strength, they don't affect you so much.  Not saying it's easy, oh no.  Geez, we started at 2, but - sometimes it takes a lifetime, maybe more.

 

That's how we learn what it is that we want.  By eliminating that which we don't want.  The Yogis call it "Nadi nadi nadi"  Not this, not this not this.  By whittling away you purify your personality and realise something closer to who you are.

Getting to "who you are" - heck, that's - well.  Again.  Lifetimes.

Oh heck, hubby calling.  Thank you for your writing, rest assured I listen with an open heart.  I hear you, even if I don't say anything.

 

I hope you see the sun today!

@JanCarol

 

Thanks so much for this reply.  I have re- read it loads of times since you posted it yesterday.  It has given me strength.  It takes me a while to reply (I have a lot of housework and other demands - my only real recreation is an hour of 'Breaking Bad' or late night trash media ) and felt that in the time I have for writing that I needed to reply to others who are going through a tough time but that takes me time.. and I try to answer sequentially.  

 

The mirror visualisation is something I can work on.  With this person I am so scared of them that I just don't have any contact at all but I will work on that for the future.  Boundaries are so important and it's only in the last few years that I am finally learning about them - how to respect other people's and now the hardest one is trying to set my own.  It's nice to have another yardstick to add to my interactions with people I am connected with - NMP - not my problem. 

 

However in relation to the dog, I am engaging as I realised that ignoring him had a bad effect on the dog who now appears to be frightened of me.  He initially tried to connect with me and tried to come downstairs when I was feeding or outside with my cats but I shouted at him to stay away.  The reason I did this was because the ginger cat would attack him. He recently attacked another dog visitor.  However I was angry about the animal being deposited here for two weeks also to be honest .  Now I realise that the dog is an innocent party in all this and for the rest of the time here will try and repair that relationship.  I feel bad about that.  The other person is having problems with him as he's very willful and running away and not coming to heel also - he hasn't had any obedience training which is bad news.  If he ran out on the road he could be picked up by dog thieves - there's a lot of them around.

 

Well I am with you on the hermitude - thanks so much for talking about recovery - I see little glimpses of strength in myself now that were not there before.

 

I hope some of your pain lets up - I find the rubber balls brilliant from Jill Miller - also myofascial stretching which I discovered a year ago.  Fascia apparently has much more pain (sensors?) than your muscles or joints or ligaments.  

 

Oaktree 

[Oaktree1]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:22 PM, Mirtazapine20mg said:

Hi @Oaktree1. I once had a girlfriend with Aspergers, and even though it was a short, clumsy relationship she was such a nice person and fiercely intelligent in a strange but productive way. She was an academic, and she always tried to be part of the mainstream academia. She wasn't very good at that. Once in a while she gave up and, always pressed for time, just wrote. When she did that, she was second to none, and her papers went through peer review like a knife through butter. Unfortunately she also became very ill, but she lives and she has a decent life today. And we still stay in touch. She teaches danish to refugees, and I think that is very nice.

 

I also think that autism as a diagnosis is product of our current form of life, and I think that is true for a lot of the diagnosis today. Earlier they would have been advantages (ADHD (look, a new path, maybe there is food there), depression (Idiots, we can't control rain by dancing, lets move to a lake), anxiety (yes, the bear looks cuddly, but I still don't like it), autism (there are 147 different mushrooms here, and that one you CANNOT eat (explained to the tribe member with ADHD). 

 

 

We have to make introvertism a badge of honor. Introverts would of course never do that - we are not much for badges. But actually Oaktree: Writing to you now, and after reading what you wrote, I think we can make it work. If radical acceptance (why always 'radical'-something to signify depth and bravery?) is saying, "yes, I'm an introvert, and I like it very much, thank you, now go do something flashy and let me be by myself" I am all for radical acceptance. The funny thing is what we are doing here is not the least introvert: We are pouring our hearts out. I think introvertness often is just people occupying in the tails of a normal distribution, and if two tail people were to meet and break the ice they would talk and talk and bath in each others company. 

 

 

If the lady saying 'you didn't get out much' don't understand it could hurt pointing out isolation, I think it is safe to say she IS stupid. It is completely unnessary. Just invite and be kind. And to be honest, to spot loneliness doesn't call for a Nobel Prize either. When somebody is pointing my loneliness out to me, and some people do, it always hurts. When I get home I can upon reflection mostly wipe the sadness of. And sometimes I can even laugh. But it takes an effort. An effort the original comment under no circumstances deserve. 

 

The funny thing is, that today I really don't mind that I don't go out much. People I admire, my favorite authors and scientists and political activists are or were loners. I once had a secret Stephen Fry-fetich. I don't like his endorsement of psychotropics, but I do like his openness about his struggles, and his kindness and generally the way he carries himself. Fry has said numerous times that utterly hate parties. I do too. I would love to host big informal barbecues (low-histamine-barbacues) for the people I admire, sit crooked and talk straight and laugh and break our strict sleep schedule together. You know, being with the tribe. But to take part in formalized social gatherings where you recognize each others right to be there with phrases like "how was traffic" or "wonderful weather", and where people make speeches or sing party songs (in Denmark we have tradition for singing songs with homemade lyrics to wellknown melodies. It sounds cute but really isn't,) no thank you very much. I do attend and I am actually quite good at hiding how much I don't want to be there. 

 

But, as I said, I miss being with my tribe very much and the dream about some day be with them keeps me alive. Problem is of course, that my tribe has been colonized. The few members that survived lives scattered in corners of the colonial powers territory. And they drink or take psychotropics or illicit drugs and spend way too much time in front of computers. 

 

Btw Oaktree: When I studied, I went to Berlin when everybody else went to the English-speaking world. So I have written a lot in German, because German writing skills are in short supply, but that also mean I never really have written in English since highschool. I have written short messages and such, but not anything longer. So I write slow and make idiomatic and grammatical mistakes, and my active written vocabulary is not impressive (my passive vocabulary is just like everybody else's with an active internet connection). And sometimes my posts and the arguments in them will come across as bit messy. That is only because I concentrate on the language and the argument at the same time. I know that you steady eyes read through this messiness. Just to say that clumsiness is not sloppiness. 

Hi @Mirtazapine20mg

 

I think the opposite of what you write, i.e.  that your active written vocabulary is not impressive or clumsy.  I think your use of words and the way your express ideas is both concise and original.  It's the opposite of messy.  Perhaps that comes from writing primarily in German - or maybe it's your own mind.  You should see the way people use English in the country I am from. 

 

 It's shocking - most of the young people under 30 speak with American accents.  I like the American accent BTW when it's spoken by an American but when I hear someone not born in that country speak in an Californian drawl and use colloquialims that are common to that state  (from TV common anyway)- 'rily', 'totally' 'stoked' 'for real' - most of them use constant filler words - 'like' comes into each sentence.   It's a real thing and I think as a result of them growing up being glued to the Disney channel or Hannah Montana and digital media.  The latest word trend in this country is 'puuurrrfect' from the word 'perfect' but that's the way they pronounce it.  You hear it everywhere. 'Do you want a receipt with that?'  'Yes please'.  'Puurrrrfect'.  '"I'll pay by card"  '" Puuurrfect".   

 

I am not keen on people who share my nationality and that's putting it mildly.  But in terms of how English is spoken and how ideas are expressed there is little or no originality - not in the mainstream media anyway.  Of course there are many talented authors from where I am from - Sally Rooney being one but I don't read literature from where I am from.  It describes a world from which I am excluded so it's painful to read it and so much literature from where I am from again is so maudlin and depressing.  When I used to read it was mainly American authors - I have a real American fixation - so perhaps I am not so different from those youngsters with their faux American drawls. 

 

So what I am trying to write in a roundabout way is that you write English very well and any I don't see any clumsiness.  I do wonder what you mean when you write of 'the colonial powers territory'. 

 

I envy you having lived  and studied in Berlin - many young people from where I am from have gone to live there because and this is another thing wrong with the country I am from - they cannot afford to live here anymore.  I only got to visit it once - I would love to have been there when the wall was still up particularly in the 70's when David Bowie was there but at least I got to see Brecht's theatre in Mitte - Klaus Maria Brandauer was going to be on stage and I hung around for hours trying to get a cancellation.  I love him.  I rarely look at continental film but I got 'Mephisto' out of the video store as soon as I saw him in a Bond movie and was into him ever since. The experience of visiting the theatre was only marred by the Irish themed pub that was down the road.  I really loved the Weimer era and all that German expressionist art and Kurt Weill and Fritz Lang. 

 

Oh well gabble gabble...as it is I have spent most of my life in this place.  People have a romantic idea of this country because the topography is beautiful and it's surrounded by sea but it's like this - Microsoft is always trying to get me to go on Microsoft Edge by showing me beautiful vistas of places around the world and I click to find out where they are but a lot of the time the places though beautiful are in parts of the world where people are starving or there are despotic regimes in charge.  Where I live is beautiful but it is not a decent place and it never was a decent place - not in my experience. 

 

We have no health service here - and I mean that - no health service unless you pay a lot for private health insurance and even then if you need emergency services you are still mainly at the mercy of the public hospitals in most of the country where the service is dire.  At my local hospital which serves a large part of the country, people die having been left on trolleys for days - they die with no dignity without being attended to, suffering strokes or brain injuries.  They cannot get the staff because staff are leaving in droves because of the conditions and pay.  The junior hospital doctors are currently on strike because of the conditions.  A month or so ago the laboratory staff went on strike for the same reasons. 

 

People die every day from cancer, strokes and other serious illness because the waiting list to see a consultant is up to three years.  One of the politicians now retired on a huge salary set up a tiered health service with layers of managerial bureaucracy.  The layers of management make the clinical decisions; they work absurdly short hours and take long holidays while the clinical staff are worked to the bone.  Under a ridiculous piece of legislation 'The Health Act' of 1970 it is impossible to fire managerial staff. 

 

This country is really ridiculous - I don't know why anyone would want to come here but large numbers of refugees I suppose haven't much choice.  Wait till the refugees get a taste of our health service.  One night a few years ago I was out with one parent in our emergency department with a suspected heart attack.  I am not joking.  We waited from 7pm in the evening until 3am in the morning for her to be seen.  Luckily it was not a heart attack but a gallbladder attack - otherwise she probably would have died.  We waited opposite a Romanian couple who had come in - one of them had suffered I think, a minor injury.  As the hours wore on a look of real disbelief came over the faces of the two Romanians - I had to explain to them - this is what the health service is like in this country.  They were stupefied.  Eventually around 2am in the morning they got up and left.  

 

There are huge numbers of homeless people.  The IMF were let in here back when the crash hit and this country became one of the PIGS and as a result the IMF let the vulture funds loose into this country.  They bought up what limited housing stock that was and is there and  and still buy up entire new housing developments thereby pricing out other buyers.   They then let the housing at exorbitant rents for which under the agreements with the government they pay very low tax while the small landlords are crucified paying 50% tax and are subject to a government quango which imposes expensive and time administrative burdens and inspections on them.  This has resulted in small landlords going into negative equity and leaving the market in droves while the hedge funds continue to raise the rents in the properties that remain.  They can take the odd tenant refusing to pay rent because of the sheer scale of their investments. 

 

We have a huge drug problem and out of control drug gangs one of which had to have FBI involvement.  One of this country's favourite MMA fighters has connections to one of the biggest drug gangs - the Kinahan cartel.  There is a house not too far from me which is a drug supermarket - people queue up to get their drugs and our police force do nothing.   

 

We have serious anti social behaviour that goes prosecuted by our police force who are corrupt.  And I mean serious anti social behaviour particularly in the capital Dublin where there are regular and vicious attacks by gangs of youths particularly on non nationals resulting in death.   There was a vicious and unprovoked attack recently on a young gay man in the main street leading to Trinity College one of the main tourist areas.  He ended up in hospital with serious injuries. I would be wary of walking the streets of Dublin now and I spent a lot of time there when I was in college back in the late 80's and 90's - nothing like that ever happened back then but now...watch out.

 

There are regular attacks on the mainly Brazilian workforce trying to earn a living delivering food to people by gangs of youths using stones and knives.  One of the men was murdered.   A 15 year old child murdered a Mongolian woman who was working as an office cleaner during the lockdown.  She was walking home from work at around 6pm in the evening and this teenager just stabbed her in the neck.  Every day or so we have murders - murder suicides or just straight out homicides.  Soon Irish TV can have their own version of CSI.   

 

There's no point ringing our wonderful police force who are rarely seen out and if they are,   are whizzing by in their cars.  There have been several inquiries about their corruption.  They are a shocking bunch generally our police force.  The ex head of the police force once made false child sex abuse report about a whistle blower in the police force to the agency responsible for dealing with child sex abuse.  The media managed to expose it.  The ex head retired on full pension.  No one ever gets prosecuted here for white collar crime and serves a real sentence.  That's why one of the directors of one of the worst banks during our financial crisis who was convicted and serving his sentence in a US jail petitioned to get back here - he knew he would have a cushier number in our prisons and he did serving an absurdly light sentence for destroying millions of lives.  Did I mention how much I hate this country?

 

We have the tightest libel laws in the Western World which politicians make full use of and get large awards - as a result there is no real freedom of expression.  This is a horrible country - if you are lucky enough to get a job in a bio tech or pharma or IT multinational you'll do ok financially in that you'll get decent pay and benefits and might be able to afford a house and some social activity .  If not you are scr*******.  

 

People think of people from this country as 'lovely' - afraid not.  I have lived in other countries - with the French you know where you stand - they speak their mind; they are reliable.   It actually means something to be a French citizen - they have genuine free education, decent health care - not here.  I spent some time in Spain too - again a phenomenal health service, wonderful food and a good way or life.  And England also - there's a country with freedom of expression.  Oh God I wish I had left here.    I hate this place - not the topography - just the people with a few exceptions, just the way it is structured or not.  Too many bad experiences here.   Oh the food is very good - have to admit that - if you can afford it.  Luckily I can currently but soon probably not.   

 

I long ago gave up formalised social gatherings - I was never a party fan and used to use alcohol to help.  Not any more.  I have to say that the idea of singing songs with made up lyrics that you write of sounds very stressful.  When I used to socialise, people would get to a certain point of drunkenness and then there might occasionally  be a 'sing song' - happened rarely - but by then we were all too drunk to mind it.

 

It is good to know that you once had a tribe and you dream of being with them again - I don't want to write anything trite like maybe you'll find a new tribe but you do seem to be able to 'pretend' and 'fit in' with the people that you are connected to.  I would love to be able to do that ...It's sad that so many of them are on the psychotropics or illicit drugs - let's face it they're both ubiquitous in our culture and probably beyond.  But then again we're communicating by way of computer screens.  

 

You have an interesting angle on DSM labels and introversion.  You are right thought about the disclosure here - ain't much that is introverted about that!  But then again it's lovely to have an old fashioned avatar and communicate in pure words without all the other paraphernalia of unspoken communication.  

 

I am again feeling tired and a bit overwhelmed this evening - sleep dis improved again for the past few nights and it's showing - I went to bed too late and too much stuff to deal with generally.   Too much left undone and meant to have been done.  I also posted a bit too much I think and I get a bit of overwhelm - I think it's called 'social hangoever' among autistic people.  I don't find it easy to write and communicate with people at all so it takes me time to get the stuff down.  Then I gabble because I don't have an edit button.  Still don't know if I am one (an ASD person) but so much of it fits.

 

I have to be honest too and say that like you I don't really mind being alone so much a lot of the time.  It is relaxing as for most of my life hell literally was other people just like Sartre wrote - not a big fan of him but mostly he got it right.   Sometimes like you I occasionally imagine I am hanging out with people I admire but not much really anymore....

 

I really like Stephen Fry too and I loved his programmes on 'manic depression' that were on the BBC even though I don't agree with his commitment to his label.  You probably know that he disappeared once and took the boat to France in the middle of a production when he was going through a particularly hard time - there was very dim view taken of that in theatrical circles.  Something similar happened to me once - I dropped out of a play when my stutter started to impact on my dialogue - it went down very badly but I did not know what else to do - if I had stuttered on stage during a performance the whole thing would have been wrecked for the cast and the audience.  He is very honest - I like that and though he seems to love an audience he appears to be a good listener too (at least on the programmes I saw) and is obviously very brilliant. 

 

My favourite role of his was in 'Peter's Friends' with a whole pile of English luvvies - a lot of reviewers pelted it as self indulgent but I thought it was a wonderful exploration of real friendship.  I loved him in 'Blackadder' too - that was the only time I really got into comedy that series and I still love it today.

 

Have written too much and gone on too long but am too tired to delete...that was a rant there....probably one of the reasons why I don't get on much with people. hahaha.

 

Hang in there Mirtazapine20mg - but the thing is that I think you will - I'd say you have a lot of inner strength - apologies if this seems too forward.

 

Will take a break now for a few days - have gone on too much on boards.

 

Oaktree

[Mirtazapine20mg]

You lovely woman. Take a break Oaktree. SA can take quite a toll, especially on you, because you really are an author: You inspire. Now we have connected, and I am right here if you need me. I am also not a big fan of Sartre, too noisy I think. But I too like the others being hell quote. I hope you get this message as an email, so you are not forced to log on SA. All the best Oaktree. 

[Ariel]

Hi Oaktree,

Just got your message in my thread. 

I'm so sorry to hear you've been so ill with covid! 

Sending you very best wishes for rest and recovery, please take gentle care and get well soon. 

No need to reply to this message or any of my other posts, no pressure at all.

This is simply to say I'm thinking of you and hoping you feel much better soon. 

Fondly,

A.

[Mirtazapine20mg]

Hi Oak, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4PEu4sVD40. Haven't seen it, but thought you instantly. I will see it now. 

 

[Greatful]

@Oaktree1

My you are getting a lot thrown at you.  You have been through so much.

We are here for you♥️

[Oaktree1]

13 hours ago, Greatful said:

@Oaktree1

My you are getting a lot thrown at you.  You have been through so much.

We are here for you♥️

Thanks @Grateful - kind of you to write on my thread - was bound to get it sooner or later but I had 4 shots of vaccine so you'd think i wouldn't have gotten the secondaries...am on vertigo and nausea meds - I really thought I was going to die at the weekend I was so ill vomiting until there was nothing else left and vertigo so severe it was like g-force - I have never experienced anything like it in my life - thankfully there was someone able to go to the all night chemist after emergency phone call with medic which I had to wait four hours for - our health system here is really, really bad.  I am going to just kind of lurk and read now on SA until hopefully things improve and no more tapering until I hopefully recover.

 

Wishing you continued improvement with your symptoms over the next while.

 

Oaktree

[Ariel]

Thinking of you, Oaktree <3

Sorry you've been so desperately ill! Sounds quite scary, actually. 

I pray you're on the mend. Sending healing vibes <3

(No need to reply to this message, ever. No pressure whatsoever.)

Take care of yourself, go gently, get well soon

Kindest wishes for peace, relief, recovery <3

 

P.S. 

I posted some Alan Watts videos here, don't know whether you like listening to him, I find his voice soothing.

Just in case you find yourself in need of distraction. 

 

 

[Carmie]

Hi Oaktree, 

 

Just read how sick you’ve been with Covid. I’m so very sorry to hear that. I hope you recover soon🧡