Kat66: should I reinstate or plough on drug free?

[ChessieCat]

I didn't learn CBT until just before I joined SA.  I'm 64 now.  I wished I had learned it ages ago.

[LotusRising]

On 6/25/2022 at 5:10 AM, Kat66 said:

What kind of therapist do you have?

My therapist specializes in ART - accelerated resolution therapy. In a nutshell, I think of an event and tune in to how I feel it in my body and then she uses a series of hand movements to help the brain process the event so that is not so triggering. It is somewhat similar to EMDR, but is supposed to be more effective in a shorter amount of time. It's not for everyone, as it does have you visualize a trauma and/or event. I've tried CBT several times and it wasn't effective for me, though I know it is for many people. Personally, I think it depends on what you need help with. 

 

On 6/25/2022 at 5:10 AM, Kat66 said:

I love music, but I am a highly sensitive person (HSP) and as such,  I can't handle the insanely strong emotions music triggers in me right now. All I can manage to listen to is meditation music/birdsong/sounds of waves. 'Normal' music is just too triggering for me, does that make sense?

This absolutely makes sense to me! I couldn't listen to music either when I first started tapering - it was just too much for me. I listened to a lot of binaural beats early on, but was slowly able to tolerate more and more. 

[Kat66]

@MedRN that kind of therapy sounds interesting if a little full on. Do you find you can tolerate it while going through WD? I’m thinking of doing some CBT but I’m thinking also it could be a little too ‘cognitive’/‘cerebral’ at a time when my brain has trouble processing and understanding things!

[LotusRising]

@Kat66

 

I don't have issues tolerating it at all, but I think it depends on what your trauma is. For me, the opportunity presented itself to try this therapy and I didn't want to let it go to waste. I'm hoping it will address and help to resolve some of the issues related to why I have been on and off medications for the last 20 years. I have the time right now and I think if I wait until I'm done tapering, I will just get swept back up into life and put everything on the back burner again. I want to get to the root and move forward. CBT can be a lot too for sure! I like that ART works with emotions and how they get trapped in your body. I'm a super "feeling" and sensitive kind of person and working with my thoughts and beliefs just wasn't doing it for me!

[Kat66]

I get you @MedRN I’m that kind of person too. Cog fog makes the thought of analysing thoughts and beliefs just too much. Good for you, taking the opportunity to do ART when it arose. I’m reading The Body keeps the Score, have you come across it? It’s about how the body holds trauma and ways to heal. It’s an amazing book. 

[LotusRising]

@Kat66 No, I haven't heard of the book, but it sounds interesting, I will definitely look into it! Thank you  

[Greatful]

@Kat66 

CBT is not that intense.  It's more of stopping and questioning what your thinking and looking for cognitive distortions and then reframing your thoughts on it.  David Burns does a really good job explaining distortions and how to label it and dispute the distortion.  I recommend his book Feeling Good   the new mood therapy.

He has a gifted way of showing example that makes it easy to understand.  

CBT will not address the trauma but it can work on the any negative distorted  thinking.  

Personally I think it was a eye opener for me to see how distorted my thought were  which reinforces  lower self esteem and  low mood.   I could learn to challenge those thoughts to have a more realistic view of things. 

[Kat66]

@MedRN you’re welcome!

 

@Greatful wondering whether any sort of therapy is beneficial during WD now. If after all, these cognitive distortions are ‘neuro-distortions’ will therapy actually make any difference as they are a temporary phenomenon (we hope!). I’ll check out David Burns x

[Greatful]

@Kat66

People have cognitive distortions even without being in WD.  Things maybe morphed in WD but cbt can help you reframe your thinking and debunk the distortions.    People do plenty of mind reading, catastrophizing, jumping to conclusions, to name a few, in their everyday life.  Often it can cause your depression or anxiety  which then can lead you to medication to fix it. 

 

Right now Molly is a sounding board and someone to help keep me motivated to work on keeping myself  together as I go through WD.   She also gently guides me with  taking care of myself, what is a healthier way of dealing with things.  When to push myself and when it's okay to put myself first.  

 

I have been seeing her for along time.  It took WD for me to really face things and try to understand them. 

When I am ready I want to try  trauma therapy also.  But right now seeing her is helping me stay focused.  It might be hard to connect with a new therapist when you are in WD.  Maybe if you found one that is up to date with WD would be more helpful.  Molly is learning through me that this is something real.   Was your last therapist trained in trauma?  If so did she agree that there is something called withdrawal? 

 

♥️  

 

[ChessieCat]

7 hours ago, Greatful said:

CBT is not that intense.  It's more of stopping and questioning what your thinking and looking for cognitive distortions and then reframing your thoughts on it. 

 

I agree with this comment.  And I think CBT is very helpful for people getting off their AD.

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by ChessieCat

[Kat66]

14 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

I agree with this comment.  And I think CBT is very helpful for people getting off their AD.

 

Thanks ChessieCat that’s another vote for CBT. 

[Kat66]

@Greatful my therapist, who I’ve been seeing since January this year is a psychotherapist. She isn’t an expert per se but she was very receptive to my situation when I explained I was in ADWD. She’s already said she’s ready to help with trauma when I’m ready but has steered me more towards EMDR. I’m not ready for trauma therapy yet, but some CBT might be helpful. Sadly she’s not a CBT practitioner so I’ll have to find someone else. My cog distortions are at Olympic levels right now.

[Greatful]

@Kat66

 

I hope that she is going to refer you to a trained trauma therapist.  As far as CBT I would think that she would have some training or knowledge about it.  Do you feel comfortable with her?  Do you like talking with her?

If she is open to WD that is a big thing in my book.   Right now it may be hard to address things in a deeper way, but having someone in your corner that has some training on emotions and how to guide you might boost your  spirits.  It helps me to have a listening ear with validation and gentle feed back.  It also keeps me more accountable in taking the steps to keep trying.   

 

I know how hard this is.  It's so easy to get sucked into old habits and thought patterns.  When one feels awful

how do we know if it's neuro-emotions or old thought patterns.  I think it's both.  Destablized on all accounts.  The rational part of our brains seems to have left the station and the amygdala (emotional)  part of the brain is  holding down the fort.  Fear, anger, sadness, emotionsssssssss! 

 

Rest assured you are not alone......Lonely maybe, but not alone with WD experiences. 🙄Somehow we still can reach across the airwaves and in words hold each other up.♥️

[Kat66]

@Greatful yep she has recommended someone specific. I may get in touch with her again to see if she may still be able to help me - I'm very at ease with her and like talking to her yes. 

 

You're so right - we are destabilised. Who knows what's real and what's neuro-real?!! Yes, my amygdala has assumed control and my rational brain has left the building!  $$£$%%^^ing nightmare!!! Is one allowed to 'curse' on here?

 

I'm so grateful for you, and everyone on here - soooooo grateful!! 

 

Massive hug for you xxx

[Ariel]

34 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

$$£$%%^^ing nightmare!!! Is one allowed to 'curse' on here?

 @Kat66

 

 

[ChessieCat]

7 hours ago, Kat66 said:

Sadly she’s not a CBT practitioner

 

5 hours ago, Greatful said:

As far as CBT I would think that she would have some training or knowledge about it.

 

There are a lot of free online CBT resources available.  Perhaps you could learn together.

 

This site has a lot of really good content:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/cbt-self-help-course-step-1/

[Kat66]

13 hours ago, Ariel said:

 @Kat66

 

 

Thanks Ariel I’ll check that out!

[Kat66]

8 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

 

 

There are a lot of free online CBT resources available.  Perhaps you could learn together.

 

This site has a lot of really good content:

 

https://www.getselfhelp.co.uk/cbt-self-help-course-step-1/

Wonderful thanks!

[Believer]

Hi @Kat66

Thinking about you. Hope your seeing some relief.

 

Hang in there!

 

🤗

Believer

[Kat66]

Hi @Believer it's very sweet of you to check in with me! I am currently in a 'dirty window', that is to say, my symptoms have lessened and I am functioning better. I'm becoming a veteran at this WD stuff, so I'm being very careful not to overdo things when I have a bit more energy.

 

How are you doing at the moment? xx

[Ariel]

@Kat66

 

1 hour ago, Kat66 said:

I am currently in a 'dirty window'

 

I love this! Excellent phrase.

Thank you for that, and glad to hear where you're at, too. 

 

[Believer]

Hi @Kat66  

 

I’m hanging in there. I understand the “not overdo” things. It catches up with me real quick. And it doesn’t take much! I’m glad your getting a window even if it is “dirty”. I’m functional but know where near what I used to be, but I’ve also been worse, so I am thankful for that.

 

Hang in there and keep us updated on how you’re doing. Are you still at 1.4 mg?

[Kat66]

On 7/20/2022 at 10:12 PM, Believer said:

Hi @Kat66  

 

I’m hanging in there. I understand the “not overdo” things. It catches up with me real quick. And it doesn’t take much! I’m glad your getting a window even if it is “dirty”. I’m functional but know where near what I used to be, but I’ve also been worse, so I am thankful for that.

 

Hang in there and keep us updated on how you’re doing. Are you still at 1.4 mg?

Hanging in there is the right phrase. I'm glad you're able to see when you're overdoing it, and rein it back in. Don't you just hate the fact we're 'functional' but not like we were? It's existing, not living.

 

I cut to 1.25mg on August 4th, and my symptoms have escalated to the point of unbearable. Anxiety, depression, inner restlessness (akathesia?), insomnia, anhedonia. I wander around like a zombie and honestly have trouble getting anything out of life at the moment. I'm so unmotivated. I've become so jaded and cynical about life in general, I tend to just keep to myself. I'm able to put a front on quite easily, as I think you become well practiced at this as time goes on. But the world is such a grim place at the moment it's hard to get any kind of joy anyway, anhedonia notwithstanding.

Still, onwards and upwards, hopefully one day this ****show will be over!

[ChessieCat]

It looks there might be an error in your drug signature.  Is the text in red supposed to be 1.45mg?

 

8/12/21 2mg 6/1/22 1.8mg 10/2/22 1.6mg 13/5/22 1.5mg 4/6/22 1.55mg 4/7/22 1.4mg 4/8/22 1.25mg

 

 

[Kat66]

@ChessieCat I updosed slightly...

[ChessieCat]

Okay, thanks. 

 

If you made the updose because you experienced withdrawal symptoms then I think it would have been better to hold for longer and/or make a smaller reduction the next time.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by ChessieCat

[Greatful]

@Kat66  Hang in there girl.  It will even out.  We are all here for you. 🌞

You are getting so close.  Your right, one day you will be off these drugs.  Remember your brain is healing every second of everyday.  

 

Is there anyway you can get liquid?  I find doing a slow daily taper to be a little bit less of a impact.  

 

I am here for you, walking on this journey by your side.🤗

 

 

[Believer]

11 hours ago, Kat66 said:

Don't you just hate the fact we're 'functional' but not like we were? It's existing, not living.

Yep. It’s a very hard place to be and accept. It’s good that you are still able to work 3 days a week, even if you don’t enjoy it. The structure of it must be nice. I had to quit completely,  although I don’t miss my job, I do miss the level of functioning I had.

 

11 hours ago, Kat66 said:

 

I cut to 1.25mg on August 4th, and my symptoms have escalated to the point of unbearable. Anxiety, depression, inner restlessness (akathesia?), insomnia, anhedonia. I wander around like a zombie and honestly have trouble getting anything out of life at the moment. I'm so unmotivated. I've become so jaded and cynical about life in general, I tend to just keep to myself. I'm able to put a front on quite easily, as I think you become well practiced at this as time goes on. But the world is such a grim place at the moment it's hard to get any kind of joy anyway, anhedonia notwithstanding.

Still, onwards and upwards, hopefully one day this ****show will be over!

I’m so sorry to read that your symptoms ramped up so much.  They say it’s harder at the lower doses. That’s been true for me since 4.5mgs. I want nothing more than to get off. I just completed a 5% drop last Friday and can feel it already. Fun ride…

 

Yeah, grim is a good word for what’s going on in the world these days, it certainly doesn’t help, but somehow fits my mood. 
 

Yep, keeping putting one foot in front of the other, we can do it.

[Kat66]

13 hours ago, Greatful said:

Is there anyway you can get liquid? 

I do my own liquid, dissolving a 10mg tablet in 10ml water and keep it in the fridge. Lasts about 5 days ish...

 

13 hours ago, ChessieCat said:

If you made the updose because you experienced withdrawal symptoms then I think it would have been better to hold for longer and/or make a smaller reduction the next time.

If you were me would you hold at my current 1.25mg for a considerably longer time then at this point?

 

11 hours ago, Believer said:

They say it’s harder at the lower doses.

So I believe.....sucks doesnt it!

 

 

Thanks girls, for being there. You can't imagine how much I appreciate you taking the time to reply xxxxx

[ChessieCat]

10 minutes ago, Kat66 said:

If you were me would you hold at my current 1.25mg for a considerably longer time then at this point?

 

It's really up to you.  Generally it is better to hold for longer than to risk reducing again too soon.  I did longer holds when I felt it was warranted.

 

It is important to listen to your body/symptoms.

 

Many members find that as their dose gets lower they need to reduce less and/or hold for longer.  The aim is to get off with the least discomfort.  And even if you reduce by small amounts every little bit is heading in the right direct.

 

Why taper paper: dose-occupancy curves

 

You might consider doing a different tapering method which gives you more control over your taper because you can hold for longer at any time during a reduction cycle.

 

Brass Monkey Slide

 

 

[Kat66]

I've been pressing on with a monthly 10% reduction regardless of how I feel. Clearly a mistake. An possibly one many people make as they just want off the drugs? I think I'll stick at 1.25 for a while and make smaller reductions as my symptoms are so bad. Gonna need a microscope soon, to see the markers on the syringe.

Thanks @ChessieCat

[ChessieCat]

11 hours ago, Kat66 said:

Gonna need a microscope soon, to see the markers on the syringe.

 

You can dilute the liquid so that you would measure out more.  It makes it a lot easier to get an accurate dose and you can get more decimal points.  See below.

 

When I was near the end of my taper, one of my dilutions was a capsule, 2mg in 1 litre / 2 pints of water.  Obviously I didn't need the whole lot so I just kept as much as I needed and threw out the rest.

 

This is the strength I ended up with:  1mL liquid contained 0.002mg Pristiq.

[Kat66]

@ChessieCatthe only thing stopping me from doing that is the assumption that the potency of the liquid with the dissolved tablet in doesn't last very long so I only prepare a small amount at a time.  How long did your liquid solution last, until your next cut?

I can't get my head around what I'd need to do, ratio-wise, as my ability to process and think is really badly affected! I literally can't rationally think what quantities of liquid to tablet.....

[ChessieCat]

5 hours ago, Kat66 said:

the only thing stopping me from doing that is the assumption that the potency of the liquid with the dissolved tablet in doesn't last very long so I only prepare a small amount at a time. 

 

SA's suggested storage time is 3-4 days refrigerated in a covered container.

 

5 hours ago, Kat66 said:

I can't get my head around what I'd need to do, ratio-wise, as my ability to process and think is really badly affected! I literally can't rationally think what quantities of liquid to tablet.....

On 8/9/2022 at 9:07 PM, Kat66 said:

I do my own liquid, dissolving a 10mg tablet in 10ml water

 

10mg in 10mL water means that each 1mL of liquid contains 1mg dose.

 

Q:  Do you have any scales?  Gemini-20 or similar.

 

10mg in 20mL             1mL = 0.5mg

10mg in 50mL             1mL = 0.2mg

10mg in 100mL           1mL = 0.1mg

10mg in 1000mL         1mL = 0.01mg

[Kat66]

@ChessieCatthat's hugely helpful thanks. Not only is my thinking capacity *%&$ed but I was bad at maths too. I just look at numbers and they mean nothing.

[Kat66]

Note to anyone who feels a bit better and is thinking about upping their exercise/heavy gardening routine. I've been doing slightly longer workouts including hour long bike rides and successfully dug up three established bamboos in the garden. I was fine for a few days afterwards. About ten days later I am paying the price now with extreme agitation, fatigue, jitters, anxiety, inner restlessness, depression. I think my CNS has shut down and is telling me I need to stop. Just stop. I hate this BS.